And I, the consumer, am working to get the greatest products at the best price/performance ratio possible. Believe me, I know Apple is not my friend and really does not care what I think. Likewise, I work for my own best interests and when our interests intersect any positive effects to Apple are purely unintentional on my part. I know what Apple's interests are but being a Mac fan doesn't make me oblivious to my own interests. At about $3000 a full system upgrade is a very big purchase for me and as much as possible I am going to get the most bang for my buck. Steve isn't going to send me a complimentary upgrade when updates the Mac Line 14 days after I bring mine home and I feel no obligation to give him the chance to do that to me.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Wow, you really cant see the point can you?
You KNOW when an upgrade to whatever system is coming. Apple upgrades them on a fairly regular schedule. That's not rumor mongering, that's common sense.
What I meant was Apple can't meet your every expectation. Sure, we all want 1.6GHz G5's but they probably aren't coming any time soon. And if rumors are flying around saying that we are getting 1.6GHz G5's but Apple can't deliver, it's going to hurt them.
You KNOW when an upgrade to whatever system is coming. Apple upgrades them on a fairly regular schedule. That's not rumor mongering, that's common sense.
What I meant was Apple can't meet your every expectation. Sure, we all want 1.6GHz G5's but they probably aren't coming any time soon. And if rumors are flying around saying that we are getting 1.6GHz G5's but Apple can't deliver, it's going to hurt them.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's you , who do not want to see the point.
There is a large difference between a minor upgrade and a big one. It's not worth waiting for a minor upgrade (or we will waiting since the end of times), but you may wait for a big major upgrade. Being here at AI have help me many times.
Cars companies are less secret : when you buy a new car, you have not the bad surprise to see a new model non expected some month later. We only know the projects in advance, and we decide if it is worth waiting or not.
We quite now that Apple is not here to make us Happy , he is here to make money like every company (funny for a company which made an signature saying : think different ). But the first goal of a company is to sell to customers, so you have to respect your customer if you wish to have a long relation.
Bad rumors can hurt Apple : true, but the main responsible of this is Apple and his politic of secret : the more secret the more rumors. Having the pretention to force to shut up them, is a bit totalitarian, after all we live in democratia, and freedoom of the press is important. Apple want to ban the press who publish rumors, the next time will he bannish the press that make negative critics against them ?
And yes media are made for the people who read it or watch it : the fact that they are owned by big corporations does not change this .If they are not at our sevice : they are perverted and corrupt : the newsletter Pravda was not a good example of good journalism .. belonging to a private corporation rather than a public one does not change this a little. As a customer i want independant press.
[quote] after all we live in democratia <hr></blockquote>
i'll assume, first, that `demoratia` is supposed to be "democracy". Now, yes, in America I live in a democracy. In certain other parts of the world, there exists similar democracies. That has nothing to do with Apple though. Apple is an independant entity. A PRIVATE corporation. As long as it follows the rules of the countries it does business in, then the politics of those countries doesn't matter.
Apple is against rumors. They hurt business. If they allow them to grow, or aide them in any way, it will hurt business more. So, as consumers of Apple products, its in our best interest to not push fake, inflammatory rumors.
Some of you guys act as if Apple is shutting down rumor sites forever and ever. Fact is, your right to peruse rumor sites and glean whatever information you will remains intact. Similarly, the right of rumor sites to "dumpster dive" for information remains intact (however tentatively so, given the reality of corporate America).
Besides, of what use to rumor sites is visiting MacWorld trade shows or other press events? By then, Apple's product offerings and market strategies have passed from the realm of speculative future into the present, which is generally out of rumor sites' scopes, with the sometime exception of MOSR.
I didn't read the article, but I fail to see how this development is bad for Nick de Plume. The threat seems to be that if a site publishes Mac rumors (BTW - what actually qualifies as a rumor? Rather a broad category, isn't it?), they will be denyed official 'Press' status at MW.
Great! So MacNN etc will shy away from publishing rumors. ThinkSecret was never a news site anyway, and will continue to publish rumors, and MORE people will visit TS in order to get their dose of MacMorphine.
If a commodity becomes scarce, it's great for the ones that do have it. TS should be rejoicing.
[quote] First off, this isn't really a new thing. It's been almost three years since the MOSR staff gave up completely on attending Macworld expos in person; the IDG staff were consistently complete pains in the asses when it came to acquiring our press passes (not to mention rude, impatient, and incompetent), the Keynote is available as a QuickTime stream, and it's just as easy to dish dirt through the Internet as it is in dark corners of an Expo floor. So let it be said that we don't give a flying @#$% about IDG's press pass policies, because we never intend to visit another Macworld again.
That said, we think it's pathetic that sites like GraphicPower and AppleLust were lumped in with, presumably, us and ThinkSecret, for example. Neither is known for rumormongering (AppleLust particularly), and most certainly, neither one has done anything that would justify this action. They are entirely legitimate press outlets with significant readerships, and deserve exactly the same treament as the "mainstream press" -- most of which is no more "professional" than the very least of the Mac Web sites.
As for this being IDG policy, bullshit. In an email sent to GraphicPower, it is QUITE clear that the orders for this action came down from Apple's queen PR bitch, Nathalie Welch -- one of the people responsible for many of the nasty brouhahas which MOSR and other rumor sites have had to go through in years of shaky relations with Apple.
In conclusion, we don't give a @#$% about this for our own purposes; IDG long ago convinced us that there was no useful point in attending Macworlds personally. In recent years we've enlisted a few folks who were planning to attend anyway to provide us show-floor reports, just as we will this year - but frankly, even that is quite unnecessary. The predictable flood of press releases and the QuickTime stream of Steve's keynote are virtually all that we would get out of the Expo in any case. Rather than being distracted by traveling to New York, staying in a hotel, spending money out the wazoo, milling around the show floor, etc. etc....we will actually be able to focus on writing reports. What a concept!
Let's boil this down just a bit further now: Apple, both directly and indirectly, has been tightening its grip on the throat of the Mac press for years, and the pressure has finally begun to show. Soon we will either see that pressure ease as Apple realizes that it's asphyxiating its own lifeblood, or we will begin to see (from the inside, these have been obvious for years already) substantial rifts between the company that makes the Mac and the most vocal advocates of the platform -- something that could be catastrophic indeed for the company. Get a clue, Apple, or start preparing your Chapter 11 filing now.
<hr></blockquote>
I quite liked "Apple's queen PR bitch, Nathalie Welch". Been a long time since MOSR made me laugh...
Well, seems like all parties are kind of flying off the handle, Apple, IDG, Graphic Power, MacOSRumors, etc. There is no such thing as dispassionate discourse when you mention the fruit company.
Dedicated rumor sites shouldn't be surprised. They' pretty amateur as it is. I guess the question could be posed as an analogy: Does Matt Drudge get into various affairs with a press pass?
By designating more legit (and frankly more professional) news sources as rumor sites is irresponsible on Apple's part. The ones you have to be strict with are the ones who report all rumors as facts or inside info. If that's all you do, it's hard to justify your status as press. But it sounds like Graphic Power and other sites were caught in the middle -- the little guys again. It's a poor decision on Apple's part. that said, I think Scott McCarthy is overreacting to what he admits was more pilgrimage than a real press job.
I wonder how much of this fall under the First Amendment in reality. It would make an interesting case...
Scott McCarty has really taken Graphic Power and made it the best, JOURNALISTIC and UNBIASED OR OTHERWISE STATED website that he could. As you can see, he's not really happy about this stuff. As he has said, and I believe him, he has known about product updated and has not announced them. Most of my (limited when present) knowledge feeds into the standard rumor sites; however anything that I have conformation on that is already out there I keep to myself. I only know what has been made obvoius to me. I have no non-disclosure agreements and I don't need any. Quite frankly, it's fun to speculate and piece together hearsay, but I certainly wouldn't be asking to be issued a press pass. There aren't many of us here who would. I also would not let out things that I thought were so revolutionary that they are only known about within Apple walls. Look, if Apple was going to move their headquarters to, say, Vancouver and you happen to live next to this site that Apple Execs kep walking in and out of and a building shaped like an Apple starts to go up, you're not required to keep secrets and you're not sharing sensitive info if anyone can stop by and see what you did. That's all that I have ever known in these regards and I don't feel bad sharing this information. If I was working under a non-disclosure agreement at Apple making the G6 chip, I wouldn't be telling the world on my website, but that's just me.
If say, maccentral (not saying they would) see iPhoto rumors flying all around and they were all over ThinkSecret and MacOSRumors and decided to do an article on the buzz. They gathereed all that they could from simpply reading other sources and then asked Apple (who declines comment) and Adobe (because they own photoshop) what they think and then decides to go to press with it THEY HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO! It's not a rumor and it's not speculation. Were the meat packing factorys mad at Uptain Sinclair when "The Jungle" was released? yes. But Sinclair did homework and drug out the facts... stating that there is a buzz and that there is a rumor circulating (no matter how small or unnoticed) is simply Journalism as long as you stick to the facts.
That story was later changed. This is less about rumors, more about Apple only letting the people they want represent them. If you aren't a big publication and don't kiss Apple's ass, you're not getting in, and that isn't very cool.
wow, macfixit reports that even THEY have been denied press passes from the upcoming expo, i guess because they commented on a couple of rumors around macworld in january (if i remember right).
Whatever the rights and wrongs of the situation it seems to me at best to be pretty small minded by Apple and it is never a good idea to make enemies of the press, whether print or web.
god, i hate it when we fall out among ourselves. life as a mac fan is hard enough.
I say go Apple. This is in their ability and it serves their needs so why not do it.
Beyond the fact that they can... who are these people being denyed press passes. Some little web site that an Apple fan sets up? Who looks at these pages that publish rumors? us crazy Mac fans. There is little news going on here. Can I open a newletter and ask for a press pass to white house briefings?
Apple is not hurting the rights of the press. They are simple weeding the ranks of silly rumor sites, or even Mac "news" sites that set up a wbsite to get a free pass to MacWorld.
<strong>I say go Apple. This is in their ability and it serves their needs so why not do it.
Beyond the fact that they can... who are these people being denyed press passes. Some little web site that an Apple fan sets up? Who looks at these pages that publish rumors? us crazy Mac fans. There is little news going on here. Can I open a newletter and ask for a press pass to white house briefings?
Apple is not hurting the rights of the press. They are simple weeding the ranks of silly rumor sites, or even Mac "news" sites that set up a wbsite to get a free pass to MacWorld.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Guys! It isn't JUST the rumors sites. It's pretty much every publication on the web besides MacCentral, MacGamer, and IMG. And it isn't just little "fan sites". A lot of the sites out there have a LOT of time put into them. Their authors usually have other people assisting with content. They get a lot of traffic, are well written, and provide a valuable service to the community.
IDG has defined
<a href="http://www.macworldexpo.com/macworldexpo/v31/index.cvn?ID=10246"; target="_blank">the requirements</a> for press credentials. If you meet those requirements, you are considered a commercial publication, and therefore are eligible to receive press credentials. But a LOT of mac publications have been denied, very recently, and completely unexpectedly. They were told that they were in violation of the requirements for the credentials, and were referred to the aforementioned page to review those requirements. Upon further inspection, it was found those requirements were indeed met, and this is how someone managed to figure out that there was a blacklist sent to them from Apple's Natalie Welch.
So to review.... it is NOT just rumors sites. You guys need to stop thinking that. If you're not one of the MAJOR mac web publications, you're not going to be getting in it would seem. And a lot of these are quality publications... publications that do provide informative and quality content to their readers, and a lot of them have a high traffic base.
The issue is that there were requirements stated for press access. Those have yet to be updated, however dozens of sites that applied are suddenly being notified just over a week before the show to tell them they can't get in anymore because they are in violation of something that they obviously are not. Publications that have met the criteria for the past four years in some cases, and have continued to get access. These aren't some 14 year old pimply faced teen's mac.com news site. These are usually sites run by people who dump a lot of money into them, provide outstanding content, and are now getting a smack in the face from Apple.
Sure, it's ultimately Apple's party, and they control the invite list... but they're not even providing a good explanation, there are double standards in play here out the ass, and it really isn't very nice or fair, and as a lot of major news outlets have picked it up, it definitely isn't reflecting good on Apple. I'd think the last thing you want to do is piss off the press... and there is more to the macintosh based press than just MacCentral, MacGamer, IMG, and other print publications.
Comments
<strong>
And I, the consumer, am working to get the greatest products at the best price/performance ratio possible. Believe me, I know Apple is not my friend and really does not care what I think. Likewise, I work for my own best interests and when our interests intersect any positive effects to Apple are purely unintentional on my part. I know what Apple's interests are but being a Mac fan doesn't make me oblivious to my own interests. At about $3000 a full system upgrade is a very big purchase for me and as much as possible I am going to get the most bang for my buck. Steve isn't going to send me a complimentary upgrade when updates the Mac Line 14 days after I bring mine home and I feel no obligation to give him the chance to do that to me.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Wow, you really cant see the point can you?
You KNOW when an upgrade to whatever system is coming. Apple upgrades them on a fairly regular schedule. That's not rumor mongering, that's common sense.
What I meant was Apple can't meet your every expectation. Sure, we all want 1.6GHz G5's but they probably aren't coming any time soon. And if rumors are flying around saying that we are getting 1.6GHz G5's but Apple can't deliver, it's going to hurt them.
<strong>
Wow, you really cant see the point can you?
You KNOW when an upgrade to whatever system is coming. Apple upgrades them on a fairly regular schedule. That's not rumor mongering, that's common sense.
What I meant was Apple can't meet your every expectation. Sure, we all want 1.6GHz G5's but they probably aren't coming any time soon. And if rumors are flying around saying that we are getting 1.6GHz G5's but Apple can't deliver, it's going to hurt them.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's you , who do not want to see the point.
There is a large difference between a minor upgrade and a big one. It's not worth waiting for a minor upgrade (or we will waiting since the end of times), but you may wait for a big major upgrade. Being here at AI have help me many times.
Cars companies are less secret : when you buy a new car, you have not the bad surprise to see a new model non expected some month later. We only know the projects in advance, and we decide if it is worth waiting or not.
We quite now that Apple is not here to make us Happy , he is here to make money like every company (funny for a company which made an signature saying : think different
Bad rumors can hurt Apple : true, but the main responsible of this is Apple and his politic of secret : the more secret the more rumors. Having the pretention to force to shut up them, is a bit totalitarian, after all we live in democratia, and freedoom of the press is important. Apple want to ban the press who publish rumors, the next time will he bannish the press that make negative critics against them ?
And yes media are made for the people who read it or watch it : the fact that they are owned by big corporations does not change this .If they are not at our sevice : they are perverted and corrupt : the newsletter Pravda was not a good example of good journalism .. belonging to a private corporation rather than a public one does not change this a little. As a customer i want independant press.
i'll assume, first, that `demoratia` is supposed to be "democracy". Now, yes, in America I live in a democracy. In certain other parts of the world, there exists similar democracies. That has nothing to do with Apple though. Apple is an independant entity. A PRIVATE corporation. As long as it follows the rules of the countries it does business in, then the politics of those countries doesn't matter.
Apple is against rumors. They hurt business. If they allow them to grow, or aide them in any way, it will hurt business more. So, as consumers of Apple products, its in our best interest to not push fake, inflammatory rumors.
<strong>
So, as consumers of Apple products, its in our best interest to not push fake, inflammatory rumors.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yet you actively participate on an internet message board dedicated to rumors of upcoming Apple products, hmm...
Besides, of what use to rumor sites is visiting MacWorld trade shows or other press events? By then, Apple's product offerings and market strategies have passed from the realm of speculative future into the present, which is generally out of rumor sites' scopes, with the sometime exception of MOSR.
Great! So MacNN etc will shy away from publishing rumors. ThinkSecret was never a news site anyway, and will continue to publish rumors, and MORE people will visit TS in order to get their dose of MacMorphine.
If a commodity becomes scarce, it's great for the ones that do have it. TS should be rejoicing.
-robo
Coincidence?
Locomotive
[quote] First off, this isn't really a new thing. It's been almost three years since the MOSR staff gave up completely on attending Macworld expos in person; the IDG staff were consistently complete pains in the asses when it came to acquiring our press passes (not to mention rude, impatient, and incompetent), the Keynote is available as a QuickTime stream, and it's just as easy to dish dirt through the Internet as it is in dark corners of an Expo floor. So let it be said that we don't give a flying @#$% about IDG's press pass policies, because we never intend to visit another Macworld again.
That said, we think it's pathetic that sites like GraphicPower and AppleLust were lumped in with, presumably, us and ThinkSecret, for example. Neither is known for rumormongering (AppleLust particularly), and most certainly, neither one has done anything that would justify this action. They are entirely legitimate press outlets with significant readerships, and deserve exactly the same treament as the "mainstream press" -- most of which is no more "professional" than the very least of the Mac Web sites.
As for this being IDG policy, bullshit. In an email sent to GraphicPower, it is QUITE clear that the orders for this action came down from Apple's queen PR bitch, Nathalie Welch -- one of the people responsible for many of the nasty brouhahas which MOSR and other rumor sites have had to go through in years of shaky relations with Apple.
In conclusion, we don't give a @#$% about this for our own purposes; IDG long ago convinced us that there was no useful point in attending Macworlds personally. In recent years we've enlisted a few folks who were planning to attend anyway to provide us show-floor reports, just as we will this year - but frankly, even that is quite unnecessary. The predictable flood of press releases and the QuickTime stream of Steve's keynote are virtually all that we would get out of the Expo in any case. Rather than being distracted by traveling to New York, staying in a hotel, spending money out the wazoo, milling around the show floor, etc. etc....we will actually be able to focus on writing reports. What a concept!
Let's boil this down just a bit further now: Apple, both directly and indirectly, has been tightening its grip on the throat of the Mac press for years, and the pressure has finally begun to show. Soon we will either see that pressure ease as Apple realizes that it's asphyxiating its own lifeblood, or we will begin to see (from the inside, these have been obvious for years already) substantial rifts between the company that makes the Mac and the most vocal advocates of the platform -- something that could be catastrophic indeed for the company. Get a clue, Apple, or start preparing your Chapter 11 filing now.
<hr></blockquote>
I quite liked "Apple's queen PR bitch, Nathalie Welch". Been a long time since MOSR made me laugh...
Note the "****ed Over By Apple." title in your browser window.
They're going a little TOO far IMO.
OK, maybe I'm a little biased... I haven't been able to show anyone my sig in over 2 years...
[ 07-04-2002: Message edited by: murbot ]</p>
Dedicated rumor sites shouldn't be surprised. They' pretty amateur as it is. I guess the question could be posed as an analogy: Does Matt Drudge get into various affairs with a press pass?
By designating more legit (and frankly more professional) news sources as rumor sites is irresponsible on Apple's part. The ones you have to be strict with are the ones who report all rumors as facts or inside info. If that's all you do, it's hard to justify your status as press. But it sounds like Graphic Power and other sites were caught in the middle -- the little guys again. It's a poor decision on Apple's part. that said, I think Scott McCarthy is overreacting to what he admits was more pilgrimage than a real press job.
I wonder how much of this fall under the First Amendment in reality. It would make an interesting case...
Scott McCarty has really taken Graphic Power and made it the best, JOURNALISTIC and UNBIASED OR OTHERWISE STATED website that he could. As you can see, he's not really happy about this stuff. As he has said, and I believe him, he has known about product updated and has not announced them. Most of my (limited when present) knowledge feeds into the standard rumor sites; however anything that I have conformation on that is already out there I keep to myself. I only know what has been made obvoius to me. I have no non-disclosure agreements and I don't need any. Quite frankly, it's fun to speculate and piece together hearsay, but I certainly wouldn't be asking to be issued a press pass. There aren't many of us here who would. I also would not let out things that I thought were so revolutionary that they are only known about within Apple walls. Look, if Apple was going to move their headquarters to, say, Vancouver and you happen to live next to this site that Apple Execs kep walking in and out of and a building shaped like an Apple starts to go up, you're not required to keep secrets and you're not sharing sensitive info if anyone can stop by and see what you did. That's all that I have ever known in these regards and I don't feel bad sharing this information. If I was working under a non-disclosure agreement at Apple making the G6 chip, I wouldn't be telling the world on my website, but that's just me.
If say, maccentral (not saying they would) see iPhoto rumors flying all around and they were all over ThinkSecret and MacOSRumors and decided to do an article on the buzz. They gathereed all that they could from simpply reading other sources and then asked Apple (who declines comment) and Adobe (because they own photoshop) what they think and then decides to go to press with it THEY HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO! It's not a rumor and it's not speculation. Were the meat packing factorys mad at Uptain Sinclair when "The Jungle" was released? yes. But Sinclair did homework and drug out the facts... stating that there is a buzz and that there is a rumor circulating (no matter how small or unnoticed) is simply Journalism as long as you stick to the facts.
That story was later changed. This is less about rumors, more about Apple only letting the people they want represent them. If you aren't a big publication and don't kiss Apple's ass, you're not getting in, and that isn't very cool.
:eek: <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
god, i hate it when we fall out among ourselves. life as a mac fan is hard enough.
Beyond the fact that they can... who are these people being denyed press passes. Some little web site that an Apple fan sets up? Who looks at these pages that publish rumors? us crazy Mac fans. There is little news going on here. Can I open a newletter and ask for a press pass to white house briefings?
Apple is not hurting the rights of the press. They are simple weeding the ranks of silly rumor sites, or even Mac "news" sites that set up a wbsite to get a free pass to MacWorld.
<strong>I say go Apple. This is in their ability and it serves their needs so why not do it.
Beyond the fact that they can... who are these people being denyed press passes. Some little web site that an Apple fan sets up? Who looks at these pages that publish rumors? us crazy Mac fans. There is little news going on here. Can I open a newletter and ask for a press pass to white house briefings?
Apple is not hurting the rights of the press. They are simple weeding the ranks of silly rumor sites, or even Mac "news" sites that set up a wbsite to get a free pass to MacWorld.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Guys! It isn't JUST the rumors sites. It's pretty much every publication on the web besides MacCentral, MacGamer, and IMG. And it isn't just little "fan sites". A lot of the sites out there have a LOT of time put into them. Their authors usually have other people assisting with content. They get a lot of traffic, are well written, and provide a valuable service to the community.
IDG has defined
<a href="http://www.macworldexpo.com/macworldexpo/v31/index.cvn?ID=10246"; target="_blank">the requirements</a> for press credentials. If you meet those requirements, you are considered a commercial publication, and therefore are eligible to receive press credentials. But a LOT of mac publications have been denied, very recently, and completely unexpectedly. They were told that they were in violation of the requirements for the credentials, and were referred to the aforementioned page to review those requirements. Upon further inspection, it was found those requirements were indeed met, and this is how someone managed to figure out that there was a blacklist sent to them from Apple's Natalie Welch.
So to review.... it is NOT just rumors sites. You guys need to stop thinking that. If you're not one of the MAJOR mac web publications, you're not going to be getting in it would seem. And a lot of these are quality publications... publications that do provide informative and quality content to their readers, and a lot of them have a high traffic base.
The issue is that there were requirements stated for press access. Those have yet to be updated, however dozens of sites that applied are suddenly being notified just over a week before the show to tell them they can't get in anymore because they are in violation of something that they obviously are not. Publications that have met the criteria for the past four years in some cases, and have continued to get access. These aren't some 14 year old pimply faced teen's mac.com news site. These are usually sites run by people who dump a lot of money into them, provide outstanding content, and are now getting a smack in the face from Apple.
Sure, it's ultimately Apple's party, and they control the invite list... but they're not even providing a good explanation, there are double standards in play here out the ass, and it really isn't very nice or fair, and as a lot of major news outlets have picked it up, it definitely isn't reflecting good on Apple. I'd think the last thing you want to do is piss off the press... and there is more to the macintosh based press than just MacCentral, MacGamer, IMG, and other print publications.