All that says is their use is not exclusive. Google's TOS is a standard boiler plate rights grab. But don't let facts get in the way of your religion.
Whose use is not exclusive? Google says in plain English and not "boilerplate legalise" that "what belongs to you stays yours". It doesn't belong to Google. That's not a jhard phrase to understand and how you could read anythign into it other than that is beyond me, so I don't think you are misunderstanding. You'd just like that it said something esle so you had something to swat 'em with. Don't worry there's REAL things you can use in attack mode as Google certainly has made mistakes. Your made-up one isn't required.
Apple has 'historically' been terrible at services? My word! Has anyone heard of anything called iTunes? It forever changed the entire music and video distribution industries....so funny how Googlers coopt and circumscribe the definition of "services" to their own advantage. Google Play would not exist if it weren't for Apple.
Whose use is not exclusive? Google says in plain English and not "boilerplate legalise" that "what belongs to you stays yours". It doesn't belong to Google. That's not a jhard phrase to understand and how you could read anythign into it other than that is beyond me, so I don't think you are misunderstanding. You'd just like that it said something esle so you had something to swat 'em with. Don't worry there's REAL things you can use in attack mode as Google certainly has made mistakes. Your made-up one isn't required.
When you upload, submit, store, send or receive content to or through our Services, you give Google (and those we work with) a worldwide license to use, host, store, reproduce, modify, create derivative works (such as those resulting from translations, adaptations or other changes we make so that your content works better with our Services), communicate, publish, publicly perform, publicly display and distribute such content.
The rights you grant in this license are for the limited purpose of operating, promoting, and improving our Services, and to develop new ones.
This license continues even if you stop using our Services.
Our automated systems analyze your content (including emails) to provide you personally relevant product features, such as customized search results, tailored advertising...
This analysis occurs as the content is sent, received, and when it is stored.
Whose use is not exclusive? Google says in plain English and not "boilerplate legalise" that "what belongs to you stays yours". It doesn't belong to Google. That's not a jhard phrase to understand and how you could read anythign into it other than that is beyond me, so I don't think you are misunderstanding. You'd just like that it said something esle so you had something to swat 'em with. Don't worry there's REAL things you can use in attack mode as Google certainly has made mistakes. Your made-up one isn't required.
It's sad how little you comprehend what you write and quote. For example:
You could take a kick a$$ pic of Key West and sell prints of it. You have it uploaded to Google Photos.
Google is running an advertising campaign for Orbitz on beach destinations. Based on the high like count and scenery (one of the "cool" aspects of Google Photo) they auto select that to promote for their partner. They see there are no people (again auto detected so no model releases) and get a great image for cheaper than micro stock.
You still own the pic and could have it on Getty but Google can use it for free. I have no idea idea why you refuse to see this. It is called a rights grap and you have swallowed the it hook, line and sinker. What's worse is, once uploaded Google can use it from that point onward even if you take it down.
I read AI every day but not the comments of the stories that often. You are right the trolls are a plague as well but I find that there volume has died down at least compared with 1-2 years ago at the height of the iphone 5 vs samsung S5 era where Samsung was at its best game. Since the iphone 6 the trolls more or less put a sock in it. Thats a good thing.
But some guys in here that love an worship 100% of what apple does while simultaneously hate and bash on all other companies, man they are something else. They got some serious issues. I wish they would shut it and let normal people discuss things in a constructive way.
People we know that apple is the best company at what it does. We just wanna point out the few things each one thinks its not doing right or could do better and voice our concern so maybe they do something about it.
And other companies especially google does have a place under the sun. Some things they do are pretty nice. Cut them some slack.
People forget that Apple was the first to launch a 17" laptop, and they were (I believe) the first to launch a 30" computer monitor. Apple understands people want bigger screens very well.
They also forget that a 3.5" phone screen was huge when it launched in 2007.
Or, more likely, they didn't forget and they're just trolls.
I guess you forgot about Steve Jobs saying that Apple would never make any phone larger than 4" because that's the perfect size and people wouldn't buy bigger? It's okay for Apple to admit their errors as well because they aren't perfect either
What I love about this is "You win".
Steve Jobs is dead. So now you can take a position, no matter how far in the past it was considered, and say "See, he said this back then, so that's the end of it. Yeah; that's the end of it… Because today he's dead. Congrats.
I'm not really sure what you guys expected but I'm having a blast with the amount of new code Google has been released over the last few days I even bought a Google Tango tablet because of the amount of new apps and code that's now available for it, well that and they finially split the price in half for the tablet model, so I'm going to have a blast. I took my Nexus 5 out of the display case where I like displaying all of my old tech and installed the Android M preview on it, I don't have the time to play with it right now but it's on my list, just so much was released it's hard to choose what to try first.
I installed the new Photo app on my Lenovo ThinkVision Monitor, which uses Android for it's multimedia mode, since it's a 4K monitor it has a Nvidia K1 CPU so it can display Android at it's native resolution. I also use the Lenovo as the main node for my 5 Nvidia K1 Jetson Dev board cluster in which I use for HPC projects and most importantly ripping/encoding my BluRays. Anyway I managed to upload over 600 movies to Google's new Photo app. So I modified my program that automatically rips/encodes BluRays into MP4, uploads it to Google Drive (now Google Photo), modifies the XML data that is used in a custom app that I wrote for both Android and Chrome OS, in which I borrowed a lot of code from Popcorn time, mainly the UI, which is a open source project, basically instead of using torrent to grab movies which is illegal, all the movies listed come from physical media in which we own and have stored. It than streams the media directly from the Google Drive account(now Google Photo) where the movie resides on, finially sending out an email informing the family that a new movie has been posted. I'm in the process of designing a case that will house a thin BluRay drive, the ones used in portable drives and a Nvidia Jetson board. The board already contains everything that I need to connect the BluRay drive. This all in one ripper/encoder decice, still trying to think up a name for it, I like, "Sir Ripsalot" will basically do everything I described above, just insert a disc, than it will rip/encode, when it's finished it will automatically eject the disc and blink a green LED light. I will use a 3D printer to make the parts for the case, I don't have one but my neighbor does, I think it's about time I get one as well as I have a few more projects that's going to require one. When finished, I'll give one to all my friends and family and than release the plans to the Nvidia Jetson forum. Actually I've been working closely with some of it's members to get this project working. They've been extremely helpful. So as you can see there are other uses for Google Photos besides just photos and home videos. I'm not sure how long Google will allow this but until they stop it I'm going to abuse, uuuuhhh, I mean use the system to its fullest. I still have a 1TB account for Google Drive so it won't be a problem if I ever need to change back.
First thing I'm going to do with my new Project Tango Tablet is 3D map my entire house, than take photos of everything so I can add textures to the model. I can't wait, it's going to be a blast. Now I do have Linux running under a Chroot on my Google Pixel 2 , which by the way is one of the most beautiful laptops ever produced, it's a close tie between it and my new MacBook, so I'm going to use Blender to render everything, biggest reason for using Blemder is I can use my 5 Nvidia Jetson boards together in a render farm and it works flawlessly. The wire frame work will be done using AutoDesks 3D Cad web app, if it works out than there really won't be much that I couldn't accomplish using web apps, which is my end goal. I no longer want to use traditionally installed applications.
So again I'm not really sure what you guys really expected to happen during this years Google I/O but so far it's been a pretty good year for me and Google products. My Nvidia Shield TV also just arrived yesterday, I decided to get the 500GB HD version. It's superb, I don't know what Apple has up it's sleaves for their new Apple TV but it better be mind blowing as I don't see anything dethrowning this beast as the king of TV set-boxes for a long while. Kodi runs flawlessly on it which will be the main purpose of the device but the real treat was being able to play games from my sons PC all the way downstairs on a big screen TV, this thing is going to be a hoot. I'm still waiting for the second one I ordered in which I'm going to use as desktop computer. I might have to wait a few weeks for root but once here, I'll install Linux on it. It will definitely make a fine ARM Desktop computer for Linux.
Overall I was excited about Google I/O despite the opposite feelings around here. Apples WDC won't be any better, at least for me anyway as I don't use any of Apples apps and I doubt they'll give me want I really want. Things like, being able to choose my own default apps in iOS, built in file-manager where I can see all of my files under a more manageable filing system (they don't have to move from their current scheme of saving files under each app but I would like them to use metadata, so I can see all documents under a single pane, movies, photos, etc.), better communication between apps, better support for apps in the share function, basically if I install OneDrive I want to see it in every app that can save to a cloud storage service or even be able to see MS OutLook when I want to send a file instead of just Apple Mail in which I don't use I want, no I need to be able to run apps in the background indefinitely, I want to be able to customize the quick setting toggles. I want both graphic cards in my Mac Pro to work together at once, basically support for CrossFire without having to always reboot into CentOS (Linux distro) to get this functionality. I want a 4K Apple Monitor that matches my Mac Pro. Unfortunately I have a feeling that Apples Dev conference will focus a lot on their watch, which is fine if you were into it but I'm not so. I'm sure they'll release some other cool things as well and it will be worth watching. The Google conferences however always gives someone like me just so much more to play with, it's not always about shiny new devices, I'm just as interested in what new code is released for me to use in my own projects, actually that's more I important to me than, just one more thing.
Two specific takeaways from it that I think you want to know about to avoid future misstatements about what Google does with your pictures:
1> Though Google Photos is a brand-new product, it stills shares its DNA with Google+’s photo services. Your photos remain private unless you want to post or share them.
2> One thing it doesn’t do is recognize you by name. It’ll group together photos featuring the same face, and it was even smart enough to know the difference between my own face and a 3-D printed version of my face. But it won’t automatically append an identity to those faces, and that’s by design.
“It’s very important for us to make this a private home for your photos,” Anil Sabharwal, head of Google Photos, told WIRED. “We’re not tying this back to any identity. You can label a person and over time, you can give them nicknames, but from the system’s perspective, it’s not tied to any identity… Any changes or intelligence that we learn from tagging a particular person in your account won’t impact anything on my account. We want to keep those things very siloed in order to maintain this very private area.”
I made those statements larger in case you had trouble seeing them.
It's sad how little research you bother with before you claim something.
Quote:
"We have absolutely no plans to do anything from a monetization or ads perspective," said Google Photos boss Anil Sabharwal.
It's sad how little you comprehend. It doesn't matter what Anil said it only matters what is in the TOS. What part of that don't you understand? If Google's intent is never to use the pics except for hosting your pics, state it. Period. Don't leave the door open.
It's sad how little you comprehend. It doesn't matter what Anil said it only matters what is in the TOS.
Is this the supposed "rights grab" you have such an issue with:
"a worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive license to use, distribute, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, publicly perform and publicly display such Content on the Service solely for the purpose for which such Content was submitted or made available, without any compensation or obligation to you."
Exactly what part of that makes you think ownership of your pictures was just seized?
... then why, Dilger, are you constantly talking about it? Either you don't believe the above things are true, or these articles are purely clickbait. Either way, they demean this website.
Because it's fun to talk crap about the other guys. These people here were basically looking for a wow factor from Googles I/O. Myself, who actually uses Google code in my own personal projects was looking for new solutions, new tech to play with and boy did I find a lot. I even found a new interest in a project that was released last year, Project Tango. Google just halved the price for the tablet model making it a lot more sane. A 3D mapping device with open sourced API's, oh my gosh, where do I sign, I can't wait to play with this thing. What really got me interested in this project again was the amount of new apps and code that was released for it, when, during the conference. That is also what a lot of people don't get here, their just looking for a major release, mostly so they can take a piss on it and say their just copying Apple. Behind the scenes though, Google and it's partners have released millions of lines of new code, APIs, libraries, full blown apps etc. to play with. It's Christmas come early for a person like me. Example: Chrome OS, I can now start an X session under the main environment with all of the UI goodness in tact so if I compile my own build and add in a application like Gimp, you would think it was a native app of Chrome OS without having to resort to using a Linux Chroot, Wine, yep, full blown MS Office is now possible. Most of the stuff released over the last couple of days didn't make it to any news outlet because it wasn't shiny enough. Android support under Chrome OS has also gotten better with a new runtime. Their are hundreds of these small little things that are happening on the floor of the conference but no, if it's not news worthy or a shiny new gadget, Googles conference failed in their eyes. It's ridiculous and 90 percent of them don't understand what these conferences are actually all about, hint, no, it's not to release something big but to bring developers together to view the boring things that no one cares about, the boring things that are the fundementals of actually creating amazing products.
Whose use is not exclusive? Google says in plain English and not "boilerplate legalise" that "what belongs to you stays yours". It doesn't belong to Google. That's not a jhard phrase to understand and how you could read anythign into it other than that is beyond me, so I don't think you are misunderstanding. You'd just like that it said something esle so you had something to swat 'em with. Don't worry there's REAL things you can use in attack mode as Google certainly has made mistakes. Your made-up one isn't required.
Google is running an advertising campaign for Orbitz on beach destinations.
Google doesn't do 'advertising campaigns'. They're not that type of business.
Is this the supposed "rights grab" you have such an issue with:
"a worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive license to use, distribute, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, publicly perform and publicly display such Content on the Service solely for the purpose for which such Content was submitted or made available, without any compensation or obligation to you."
Exactly what part of that makes you think ownership of your pictures was just seized?
Exclusivity is the word here, and it appears to me that is given up. You still own the image, but that same image, once published to Google, is freely available to the public.
Good legal reason for this; Google never has to worry about your copyrighted image propagating through the internet without your permission; you already gave that to them.
Is this the supposed "rights grab" you have such an issue with:
"a worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive license to use, distribute, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, publicly perform and publicly display such Content on the Service solely for the purpose for which such Content was submitted or made available, without any compensation or obligation to you."
Exactly what part of that makes you think ownership of your pictures was just seized?
Nope. That wording is not a rights grap. Comprehension is very low with you.
Comments
Whose use is not exclusive? Google says in plain English and not "boilerplate legalise" that "what belongs to you stays yours". It doesn't belong to Google. That's not a jhard phrase to understand and how you could read anythign into it other than that is beyond me, so I don't think you are misunderstanding. You'd just like that it said something esle so you had something to swat 'em with. Don't worry there's REAL things you can use in attack mode as Google certainly has made mistakes. Your made-up one isn't required.
It's sad how little you comprehend what you write and quote. For example:
You could take a kick a$$ pic of Key West and sell prints of it. You have it uploaded to Google Photos.
Google is running an advertising campaign for Orbitz on beach destinations. Based on the high like count and scenery (one of the "cool" aspects of Google Photo) they auto select that to promote for their partner. They see there are no people (again auto detected so no model releases) and get a great image for cheaper than micro stock.
You still own the pic and could have it on Getty but Google can use it for free. I have no idea idea why you refuse to see this. It is called a rights grap and you have swallowed the it hook, line and sinker. What's worse is, once uploaded Google can use it from that point onward even if you take it down.
Nothing in their TOS prohibits this.
I read AI every day but not the comments of the stories that often. You are right the trolls are a plague as well but I find that there volume has died down at least compared with 1-2 years ago at the height of the iphone 5 vs samsung S5 era where Samsung was at its best game. Since the iphone 6 the trolls more or less put a sock in it. Thats a good thing.
But some guys in here that love an worship 100% of what apple does while simultaneously hate and bash on all other companies, man they are something else. They got some serious issues. I wish they would shut it and let normal people discuss things in a constructive way.
People we know that apple is the best company at what it does. We just wanna point out the few things each one thinks its not doing right or could do better and voice our concern so maybe they do something about it.
And other companies especially google does have a place under the sun. Some things they do are pretty nice. Cut them some slack.
People forget that Apple was the first to launch a 17" laptop, and they were (I believe) the first to launch a 30" computer monitor. Apple understands people want bigger screens very well.
They also forget that a 3.5" phone screen was huge when it launched in 2007.
Or, more likely, they didn't forget and they're just trolls.
I guess you forgot about Steve Jobs saying that Apple would never make any phone larger than 4" because that's the perfect size and people wouldn't buy bigger? It's okay for Apple to admit their errors as well because they aren't perfect either
What I love about this is "You win".
Steve Jobs is dead. So now you can take a position, no matter how far in the past it was considered, and say "See, he said this back then, so that's the end of it. Yeah; that's the end of it… Because today he's dead. Congrats.
I installed the new Photo app on my Lenovo ThinkVision Monitor, which uses Android for it's multimedia mode, since it's a 4K monitor it has a Nvidia K1 CPU so it can display Android at it's native resolution. I also use the Lenovo as the main node for my 5 Nvidia K1 Jetson Dev board cluster in which I use for HPC projects and most importantly ripping/encoding my BluRays. Anyway I managed to upload over 600 movies to Google's new Photo app. So I modified my program that automatically rips/encodes BluRays into MP4, uploads it to Google Drive (now Google Photo), modifies the XML data that is used in a custom app that I wrote for both Android and Chrome OS, in which I borrowed a lot of code from Popcorn time, mainly the UI, which is a open source project, basically instead of using torrent to grab movies which is illegal, all the movies listed come from physical media in which we own and have stored. It than streams the media directly from the Google Drive account(now Google Photo) where the movie resides on, finially sending out an email informing the family that a new movie has been posted. I'm in the process of designing a case that will house a thin BluRay drive, the ones used in portable drives and a Nvidia Jetson board. The board already contains everything that I need to connect the BluRay drive. This all in one ripper/encoder decice, still trying to think up a name for it, I like, "Sir Ripsalot" will basically do everything I described above, just insert a disc, than it will rip/encode, when it's finished it will automatically eject the disc and blink a green LED light. I will use a 3D printer to make the parts for the case, I don't have one but my neighbor does, I think it's about time I get one as well as I have a few more projects that's going to require one. When finished, I'll give one to all my friends and family and than release the plans to the Nvidia Jetson forum. Actually I've been working closely with some of it's members to get this project working. They've been extremely helpful. So as you can see there are other uses for Google Photos besides just photos and home videos. I'm not sure how long Google will allow this but until they stop it I'm going to abuse, uuuuhhh, I mean use the system to its fullest. I still have a 1TB account for Google Drive so it won't be a problem if I ever need to change back.
First thing I'm going to do with my new Project Tango Tablet is 3D map my entire house, than take photos of everything so I can add textures to the model. I can't wait, it's going to be a blast. Now I do have Linux running under a Chroot on my Google Pixel 2 , which by the way is one of the most beautiful laptops ever produced, it's a close tie between it and my new MacBook, so I'm going to use Blender to render everything, biggest reason for using Blemder is I can use my 5 Nvidia Jetson boards together in a render farm and it works flawlessly. The wire frame work will be done using AutoDesks 3D Cad web app, if it works out than there really won't be much that I couldn't accomplish using web apps, which is my end goal. I no longer want to use traditionally installed applications.
So again I'm not really sure what you guys really expected to happen during this years Google I/O but so far it's been a pretty good year for me and Google products. My Nvidia Shield TV also just arrived yesterday, I decided to get the 500GB HD version. It's superb, I don't know what Apple has up it's sleaves for their new Apple TV but it better be mind blowing as I don't see anything dethrowning this beast as the king of TV set-boxes for a long while. Kodi runs flawlessly on it which will be the main purpose of the device but the real treat was being able to play games from my sons PC all the way downstairs on a big screen TV, this thing is going to be a hoot. I'm still waiting for the second one I ordered in which I'm going to use as desktop computer. I might have to wait a few weeks for root but once here, I'll install Linux on it. It will definitely make a fine ARM Desktop computer for Linux.
Overall I was excited about Google I/O despite the opposite feelings around here. Apples WDC won't be any better, at least for me anyway as I don't use any of Apples apps and I doubt they'll give me want I really want. Things like, being able to choose my own default apps in iOS, built in file-manager where I can see all of my files under a more manageable filing system (they don't have to move from their current scheme of saving files under each app but I would like them to use metadata, so I can see all documents under a single pane, movies, photos, etc.), better communication between apps, better support for apps in the share function, basically if I install OneDrive I want to see it in every app that can save to a cloud storage service or even be able to see MS OutLook when I want to send a file instead of just Apple Mail in which I don't use I want, no I need to be able to run apps in the background indefinitely, I want to be able to customize the quick setting toggles. I want both graphic cards in my Mac Pro to work together at once, basically support for CrossFire without having to always reboot into CentOS (Linux distro) to get this functionality. I want a 4K Apple Monitor that matches my Mac Pro. Unfortunately I have a feeling that Apples Dev conference will focus a lot on their watch, which is fine if you were into it but I'm not so. I'm sure they'll release some other cool things as well and it will be worth watching. The Google conferences however always gives someone like me just so much more to play with, it's not always about shiny new devices, I'm just as interested in what new code is released for me to use in my own projects, actually that's more I important to me than, just one more thing.
Quote:
"We have absolutely no plans to do anything from a monetization or ads perspective," said Google Photos boss Anil Sabharwal.
Here's a clear explanation of what it is since you've seemingly not spent much time reading about it yet.
http://www.wired.com/2015/05/google-photos-new-essential-picture-app/
Two specific takeaways from it that I think you want to know about to avoid future misstatements about what Google does with your pictures:
1> Though Google Photos is a brand-new product, it stills shares its DNA with Google+’s photo services. Your photos remain private unless you want to post or share them.
2> One thing it doesn’t do is recognize you by name. It’ll group together photos featuring the same face, and it was even smart enough to know the difference between my own face and a 3-D printed version of my face. But it won’t automatically append an identity to those faces, and that’s by design.
“It’s very important for us to make this a private home for your photos,” Anil Sabharwal, head of Google Photos, told WIRED. “We’re not tying this back to any identity. You can label a person and over time, you can give them nicknames, but from the system’s perspective, it’s not tied to any identity… Any changes or intelligence that we learn from tagging a particular person in your account won’t impact anything on my account. We want to keep those things very siloed in order to maintain this very private area.”
I made those statements larger in case you had trouble seeing them.
It's sad how little you comprehend. It doesn't matter what Anil said it only matters what is in the TOS. What part of that don't you understand? If Google's intent is never to use the pics except for hosting your pics, state it. Period. Don't leave the door open.
It's sad how sad people are getting.
Is this the supposed "rights grab" you have such an issue with:
"a worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive license to use, distribute, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, publicly perform and publicly display such Content on the Service solely for the purpose for which such Content was submitted or made available, without any compensation or obligation to you."
Exactly what part of that makes you think ownership of your pictures was just seized?
Because it's fun to talk crap about the other guys. These people here were basically looking for a wow factor from Googles I/O. Myself, who actually uses Google code in my own personal projects was looking for new solutions, new tech to play with and boy did I find a lot. I even found a new interest in a project that was released last year, Project Tango. Google just halved the price for the tablet model making it a lot more sane. A 3D mapping device with open sourced API's, oh my gosh, where do I sign, I can't wait to play with this thing. What really got me interested in this project again was the amount of new apps and code that was released for it, when, during the conference. That is also what a lot of people don't get here, their just looking for a major release, mostly so they can take a piss on it and say their just copying Apple. Behind the scenes though, Google and it's partners have released millions of lines of new code, APIs, libraries, full blown apps etc. to play with. It's Christmas come early for a person like me. Example: Chrome OS, I can now start an X session under the main environment with all of the UI goodness in tact so if I compile my own build and add in a application like Gimp, you would think it was a native app of Chrome OS without having to resort to using a Linux Chroot, Wine, yep, full blown MS Office is now possible. Most of the stuff released over the last couple of days didn't make it to any news outlet because it wasn't shiny enough. Android support under Chrome OS has also gotten better with a new runtime. Their are hundreds of these small little things that are happening on the floor of the conference but no, if it's not news worthy or a shiny new gadget, Googles conference failed in their eyes. It's ridiculous and 90 percent of them don't understand what these conferences are actually all about, hint, no, it's not to release something big but to bring developers together to view the boring things that no one cares about, the boring things that are the fundementals of actually creating amazing products.
Don't be sad, I love you.
Google doesn't do 'advertising campaigns'. They're not that type of business.
Is this the supposed "rights grab" you have such an issue with:
"a worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive license to use, distribute, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, publicly perform and publicly display such Content on the Service solely for the purpose for which such Content was submitted or made available, without any compensation or obligation to you."
Exactly what part of that makes you think ownership of your pictures was just seized?
Exclusivity is the word here, and it appears to me that is given up. You still own the image, but that same image, once published to Google, is freely available to the public.
Good legal reason for this; Google never has to worry about your copyrighted image propagating through the internet without your permission; you already gave that to them.
Low-post trolls have joined the usual suspects and the haters from the UK. Fun thread.
Nope. That wording is not a rights grap. Comprehension is very low with you.
Low-post trolls have joined the usual suspects and the haters from the UK. Fun thread.
"the haters" in a thread that's basically a hate piece.
I don't think the haters are the people who you think they are.
Was that sarcasm? They have a massive sales staff to support various ad campaigns.