MS needs to keep Apple alive because they are the only noticeable competition out there. If Apple folded the DOJ would have them for breakfast eventually.
MS attitude has always been one of " We can do anything we want ( and stall as long as we want ).
This is just a shot across the bow because of what Apple did during the trial. They don't want Apple doing any more right now.
I have never known MS to walk away from profit ( monetary or safety wise ) even if it isn't what they hoped for.
MS needs to keep Apple alive because they are the only noticeable competition out there. If Apple folded the DOJ would have them for breakfast eventually.
MS attitude has always been one of " We can do anything we want ( and stall as long as we want ).
This is just a shot across the bow because of what Apple did during the trial. They don't want Apple doing any more right now.
I have never known MS to walk away from profit ( monetary or safety wise ) even if it isn't what they hoped for.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think you underestimate MS's ferocity if they feel they're being threatened or ridiculed.
The DOJ right now is not interested in pursuing Microsoft's monopoly. (Thank god for the States, at least.)
MS will walk away from a a smidgen of profit in a heartbeat if they feel Apple is an actual, serious threat.
Besides. It doesn't even matter whether Microsoft cancels Office for the Mac or not.
All they have to do is place the seed of doubt. Businesses and potential switchers will not go Mac if Office's development can't reliably be expected to continue.
[quote]Microsoft, for example, was instrumental in helping Apple resolve problems with Mac OS X, the next-generation version of the Macintosh operating system released in March 2001. <hr></blockquote>
when and where did ms help weed out problems in osx???
when and where did ms help weed out problems in osx???</strong><hr></blockquote>
No, this is true. The MBU (Mac Business Unit) has done a pretty impressive job of carbonizing Office while OS X was still under heavy development. (Not to say it's a prefect app, OK?) I'm sure they helped weeded out many, many bugs in OS X.
The problem is not with MBU, who are big Mac fans.
The problem is that, in the end, MBU takes orders from Redmond.
Of course, there is some subtlety here. MS complains about the Switch campaign (obvious) and also about Apple not doing enough to promote X (OK) but is the subtle message Apple should spend its ad dollars on getting users already in its sandbox to upgrade to X rather than on trying to gain more users to come into the sandbox. Of course when Apple stops getting converts it starts to slowly die. MS is ready and willing to Kevorkian Apple, they're just giving Steve the choice of having it slow or fast.
Gee, Office v.X hasn't been selling as well as MS hoped. Could that be because they make you pay $400 for an app that can't keep up with your typing? $400 for Yet Another Office 4, only slower and more bloated (and marginally less buggy)? Maybe the little genie-effect gimmick makes up for the bugs and the dialog labyrinth? Yes, it's the standard, but Apple users are by definition comfortable with the nonstandard; and standards change. More often than anyone at MS would like to hear, standards change because the standard-bearer becomes arrogant and complacent and a smaller, hungrier competitor appears.
MS is scared. This article and the avalanche of FUD coming out of Redmond make that obvious. As far as I'm concerned, if Apple is in a position to get this kind of reaction out of MS then they must have some really interesting stuff to roll out at MWNY. A totally retooled and rethought AppleWorks is pretty obvious, but not a given (I'd sure like to see one!).
Curiously, the article ignored .Mac, which looks like it could be a broadside aimed at .Net.
groverat, the quote you're wondering about refers to 70 bugs that MS helped Apple fix for the 10.1 release (they were holding back Office). Apparently they expect eternal gratitude for that. (I'd love to know how much Adobe and Logic and MOTU have done for Apple's display and audio layers, or how much id has assisted with the OpenGL adoption - but since they're not MS, they apparently don't count.)
<strong>Blaming Apple for poor Office sales makes no or little sense. It has nothing to do with Office sales.
It has to with Apple's newfound attitude. Thus the class bully is rapping the upstart on the head.
By the way, Microsoft is not scared. They're the ones holding the cards.
Microsoft is, however, very very paranoid. And one might want to hesitate before being the brunt of such paranoia.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Is there a way in which paranoid people are not scared that I'm missing? Scared doesn't mean they'll turn tail and run, it means they sense a real and imminent threat.
Also, MS is more vulnerable than they've been in decades. Not only is the antitrust trial looking grim - they've lost all credibility with the judge, again, and she doesn't seem like one to take kindly to their bluster - but it's emboldened a lot of their competitors (real and erstwhile). The economy is weak. MS' "antipiracy" tactics, Licensing 6.0, Passport, Hotmail and now Palladium (and, to some extent, Windows XP) are causing a lot of controversy and ill will. There are a lot of people who only use Windows/Office/Outlook/IE because (they believe) there's nothing else, not because they like it. And, finally, there's been suspicion for years about MS' accounting practices, and in the current climate I'm sure they'd like everyone to just forget that. Unfortunately, there's no guarantee that that will happen.
[quote]<strong>I'd expect some kissy-kissy make-up from Apple to MS at MWNY.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Maybe and maybe not. Apple has two years to come up with a substitute for Office:mac (AppleWorks development has been conspicuously quiet for some time now), and if they wanted to they could have a substitute for IE on short notice. They already have a replacement for Outlook Express/Entourage, and, if they've done their homework with Jaguar's Windows compatibility, for Outlook itself.
Jaguar will rock, of course. MS pre-announcing Corona tells me that QuickTime 6 is one of the reasons that Jaguar will rock. QT6 + QE + FW2 + Logic + everything from iMovie to Nothing Real + DVD authoring + .Mac = multimedia heaven.
I think it's more likely that Apple will come out swinging. Winning over the other 95% means targetting Windows users. It means beating Windows. It means shouting from the rooftops that they're better than Windows and compatible. It means offering internet and office apps that feature reliability and ease of use that MS hasn't offered in their flagship applications since Word 4. 10.1 was good enough to show off; Jaguar should be good enough to blow people away. Meanwhile, MS wants Apple (a.k.a. "R&D South") to merely subsist. If Apple really wants to do this, if they really want the other 95%, they have to piss off Microsoft. So they will.
The only way Apple can survive in the long term is to attract PC users. Of course M$ will fight this.
So, it seems Apple and M$ are destined to clash. 10 yrs ago, Office would have killed the Mac. Now, Im not sure. There are many variables, but if a viable and usable alternative existed and M$ yanked office, Apple could find itself in a position where it did not depend on the enemy for anything.
There are linux Exchange clients available, OpenOffice, etc. These are all possible alternatives to M$. Maybe not now, but w/some work...
[quote](I'd love to know how much Adobe and Logic and MOTU have done for Apple's display and audio layers, or how much id has assisted with the OpenGL adoption - but since they're not MS, they apparently don't count.)<hr></blockquote>
What sense would mentioning the other companies in the article have done?
Fact: Apple hasn't been pushing OSX as hard as they could/should. Microsoft is used to saying "This is our new OS, use it, the old one is dead." and Apple is very ambiguous, allowing old users keep running OS9 on brand new machines.
It's very likely that Apple pushed MS to develop Office v.X as OSX only, I can't see any other reason why MS wouldn't develop for a Carbon app that would work for both.
In essence, Apple told MS to pour a ton of resources into a platform they aren't pushing very hard. Now, all "but Microsoft is the devil" babble aside, that would piss me off as well if I were Microsoft.
And then, after the app you worked your ass off for isn't selling well because people are still running OS9 on new Macs you have a whole new campaign from Apple talking about how crappy your flagship OS is... hmm.
I wouldn't be surprised at all if MS were to cut all support for everything out the day the agreement ends; not saying they will, but I wouldn't be surprised. Microsoft owes Apple nothing. As a matter of fact, Apple has benefited from this deal more than Microsoft has (from where I see it).
Apple is very much in the "we're better than everyone" mode and not the "we're really good especially in conjunction with all these other great products" mode.
Apple isn't playing nice now, and while that may be fun I think it fully justifies MS and others from dropping them expeditiously.
As far as MS trying to kill Apple, I don't think it matters either way to MS. I don't see Apple as being a real threat to them.
I think the real feature they don't like is iChat, which integrates with AIM and not their beloved MSN Messenger service, especially since MS couldn't get MSN and AIM integrated (supposedly).
Apple is definitely suffering from the short, little brother syndrome here. Well, maybe not Apple corporate, but certainly the Apple faithful.
Amorph makes a good point, why is M$ making such a big deal now? Because of the switch ads? Jaguar is great, but M$ knows that Apple is going nowhere without good Hardware. WTF is up?
"I think it's more likely that Apple will come out swinging. Winning over the other 95% means targetting Windows users. It means beating Windows. It means shouting from the rooftops that they're better than Windows and compatible. It means offering internet and office apps that feature reliability and ease of use that MS hasn't offered in their flagship applications since Word 4. 10.1 was good enough to show off; Jaguar should be good enough to blow people away. Meanwhile, MS wants Apple (a.k.a. "R&D South") to merely subsist. If Apple really wants to do this, if they really want the other 95%, they have to piss off Microsoft. So they will."
Damn straight.
'Bout time Apple came out swingin'. They've been quiet ever since they pished away THEIR OS to Microsoft.
I don't think Apple does need Office anymore. Macs aren't 'office'/business machines...so...du-oh!
Hardware? Apple must have some nifty hardware a comin'. I just hope it's real Pentium bruising.
I've felt Apple have, for a long time...been showing all the right moves:
Quicktime, iApps, iTools, 'X' (and the stunning Jaguar now...), stunning design, great laptops...buying up key high end apps...eg Shake...the retail stores...a brilliant website...Unix...open source...Unix developers and Java developers...gaming on the Mac the best its been in years...only the 'innards' of the hardware ie the CPU et al need the same level of innovation and we're away. If Apple get Power 4 derivative...it's game on. Apple and IBM would make a powerful adversary.
Apple doesn't need Internet Explorer. There are plenty of alternatives.
Apple doesn't need MS Office. They have virtually no presence in the offices that I know of. So...support killed for something they DON'T have? Big deal. M$ Office...I find fussy and over complicated. If Apple can deliver it's own Office App' based on StarOffice or it's own Appleworks (I still use Claris...and...for I do...Office can't do it any better ) then what's the worry?
Apple is print and multimedia and graphic arts.
We don't need M$. I don't.
Perhaps this is what M$ are worried about. Apple DOESN'T need M$ anymore. That makes them a threat. What's more...Apple does have most of the pieces in place NOW to compete...
Apple must be readying dramatic additions for M$ to be this publicly jittery. Me-owww.
Apple seem to be on a very aggressive OS assault. Maybe with Jaguar...Apple will finally feel 'Ten' is 'there' to put a massive ad' campaign behind?
Hmm. This is all very intriguing.
Steve Jobs isn't one to lapdog. This will be his and Apple's greatest test. What-oh-what do they have up their sleeve...
Apple are in a far better position to compete today than they were in 1997. By far.
Apple have 4 bilion in the bank...and 95% of the market to aim at. And are opening even more stores. M$ have got to beat Apple in light of their recent...soiled and dirty history ie under the noses of the DOJ. Crush Apple? Try.
Go ahead, M$. We're watching. We all are. Bring it on.
So. What will this do for Office development? I don't mind seeing Internet Explorer go away on the mac, but my work requires MS Office. That would suck!
...but you will merely be the last thing that it eats.
In short, sooner or later there could be no Office for Mac anyhow if Apple goes under. Get a cheap PC and run Office.
I'm glad that it is Apple that is finally waking up.
Heh. Apple are after the other 95%.
The reality of this situation is...Apple has no choice but to go for it...otherwise it will shrink out of existence. Apple has seen it's tradtional edu' and other markets eroded by Dell et al.
It's payback time. If Apple are serious about that 'other' 95% then yer gonna have to crack a few eggs... If that means saying Dell PCs are crap...that XP is tacky...if it means roughing M$ up a bit...
Office is overated. I'm amazed nobody has come along and bent it over for a damn good hosing.
Yeesh. An overated, fussy, cluttered ('So M$') piece of software. Most of M$ Office I find tacky from the weak Powerpoint to the 'cheap' junk pile that is 'Office'. There's not an ounce of quality or class in the suite.
If there's one company that can come out with an elegant office solution.
anyone else feel like i do that office 4.2.1, back in the dark days, did more harm to apple than help? it really made apple products feel like a crap product to do even the most mundane office tasks - things that everyone felt any computer should be able to do. and they blamed apple for it, because their logo wasn't on the office box.
i'd rather have no office than a crap one, and then watch people blame apple for its shoddy performance. seriously, all pc users blame all mac-pc problems are always blamed on the mac for not being compatible enough. i tried to explain to a co-worker a problem occurring when transferring a word template from mac to pc, and all she could say was "oh, so the mac can't handle -- blank --?" uh, no, it's just that office won't accept any other format except -- blank--. it's like talking to a brick. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
Comments
<strong>You can pretty much guarantee that Apple is working on their own office suite - namely AppleWorks.
I remember reasing a rumor about this somewhere . . . about AppleWorks Home and AppleWorks Office . . .</strong><hr></blockquote>
Appleworks Office was Appleworks 5. Already happened
Amorya
MS needs to keep Apple alive because they are the only noticeable competition out there. If Apple folded the DOJ would have them for breakfast eventually.
MS attitude has always been one of " We can do anything we want ( and stall as long as we want ).
This is just a shot across the bow because of what Apple did during the trial. They don't want Apple doing any more right now.
I have never known MS to walk away from profit ( monetary or safety wise ) even if it isn't what they hoped for.
<strong>Guys, guys, guys, ( and gals ),
MS needs to keep Apple alive because they are the only noticeable competition out there. If Apple folded the DOJ would have them for breakfast eventually.
MS attitude has always been one of " We can do anything we want ( and stall as long as we want ).
This is just a shot across the bow because of what Apple did during the trial. They don't want Apple doing any more right now.
I have never known MS to walk away from profit ( monetary or safety wise ) even if it isn't what they hoped for.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think you underestimate MS's ferocity if they feel they're being threatened or ridiculed.
The DOJ right now is not interested in pursuing Microsoft's monopoly. (Thank god for the States, at least.)
MS will walk away from a a smidgen of profit in a heartbeat if they feel Apple is an actual, serious threat.
All they have to do is place the seed of doubt. Businesses and potential switchers will not go Mac if Office's development can't reliably be expected to continue.
FUD.
It's clever. And ruthless. And effective.
[ 07-15-2002: Message edited by: Hobbes ]</p>
when and where did ms help weed out problems in osx???
<strong>
when and where did ms help weed out problems in osx???</strong><hr></blockquote>
No, this is true. The MBU (Mac Business Unit) has done a pretty impressive job of carbonizing Office while OS X was still under heavy development. (Not to say it's a prefect app, OK?) I'm sure they helped weeded out many, many bugs in OS X.
The problem is not with MBU, who are big Mac fans.
The problem is that, in the end, MBU takes orders from Redmond.
[ 07-15-2002: Message edited by: Hobbes ]</p>
MS is scared. This article and the avalanche of FUD coming out of Redmond make that obvious. As far as I'm concerned, if Apple is in a position to get this kind of reaction out of MS then they must have some really interesting stuff to roll out at MWNY. A totally retooled and rethought AppleWorks is pretty obvious, but not a given (I'd sure like to see one!).
Curiously, the article ignored .Mac, which looks like it could be a broadside aimed at .Net.
groverat, the quote you're wondering about refers to 70 bugs that MS helped Apple fix for the 10.1 release (they were holding back Office). Apparently they expect eternal gratitude for that. (I'd love to know how much Adobe and Logic and MOTU have done for Apple's display and audio layers, or how much id has assisted with the OpenGL adoption - but since they're not MS, they apparently don't count.)
It has to with Apple's newfound attitude. Thus the class bully is rapping the upstart on the head.
By the way, Microsoft is not scared. They're the ones holding the cards.
Microsoft is, however, very very paranoid. And one might want to hesitate before being the brunt of such paranoia.
I'd expect some kissy-kissy make-up from Apple to MS at MWNY.
<strong>Blaming Apple for poor Office sales makes no or little sense. It has nothing to do with Office sales.
It has to with Apple's newfound attitude. Thus the class bully is rapping the upstart on the head.
By the way, Microsoft is not scared. They're the ones holding the cards.
Microsoft is, however, very very paranoid. And one might want to hesitate before being the brunt of such paranoia.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Is there a way in which paranoid people are not scared that I'm missing?
Also, MS is more vulnerable than they've been in decades. Not only is the antitrust trial looking grim - they've lost all credibility with the judge, again, and she doesn't seem like one to take kindly to their bluster - but it's emboldened a lot of their competitors (real and erstwhile). The economy is weak. MS' "antipiracy" tactics, Licensing 6.0, Passport, Hotmail and now Palladium (and, to some extent, Windows XP) are causing a lot of controversy and ill will. There are a lot of people who only use Windows/Office/Outlook/IE because (they believe) there's nothing else, not because they like it. And, finally, there's been suspicion for years about MS' accounting practices, and in the current climate I'm sure they'd like everyone to just forget that. Unfortunately, there's no guarantee that that will happen.
[quote]<strong>I'd expect some kissy-kissy make-up from Apple to MS at MWNY.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Maybe and maybe not. Apple has two years to come up with a substitute for Office:mac (AppleWorks development has been conspicuously quiet for some time now), and if they wanted to they could have a substitute for IE on short notice. They already have a replacement for Outlook Express/Entourage, and, if they've done their homework with Jaguar's Windows compatibility, for Outlook itself.
Jaguar will rock, of course. MS pre-announcing Corona tells me that QuickTime 6 is one of the reasons that Jaguar will rock. QT6 + QE + FW2 + Logic + everything from iMovie to Nothing Real + DVD authoring + .Mac = multimedia heaven.
I think it's more likely that Apple will come out swinging. Winning over the other 95% means targetting Windows users. It means beating Windows. It means shouting from the rooftops that they're better than Windows and compatible. It means offering internet and office apps that feature reliability and ease of use that MS hasn't offered in their flagship applications since Word 4. 10.1 was good enough to show off; Jaguar should be good enough to blow people away. Meanwhile, MS wants Apple (a.k.a. "R&D South") to merely subsist. If Apple really wants to do this, if they really want the other 95%, they have to piss off Microsoft. So they will.
[ 07-15-2002: Message edited by: Amorph ]</p>
So, it seems Apple and M$ are destined to clash. 10 yrs ago, Office would have killed the Mac. Now, Im not sure. There are many variables, but if a viable and usable alternative existed and M$ yanked office, Apple could find itself in a position where it did not depend on the enemy for anything.
There are linux Exchange clients available, OpenOffice, etc. These are all possible alternatives to M$. Maybe not now, but w/some work...
What sense would mentioning the other companies in the article have done?
Fact: Apple hasn't been pushing OSX as hard as they could/should. Microsoft is used to saying "This is our new OS, use it, the old one is dead." and Apple is very ambiguous, allowing old users keep running OS9 on brand new machines.
It's very likely that Apple pushed MS to develop Office v.X as OSX only, I can't see any other reason why MS wouldn't develop for a Carbon app that would work for both.
In essence, Apple told MS to pour a ton of resources into a platform they aren't pushing very hard. Now, all "but Microsoft is the devil" babble aside, that would piss me off as well if I were Microsoft.
And then, after the app you worked your ass off for isn't selling well because people are still running OS9 on new Macs you have a whole new campaign from Apple talking about how crappy your flagship OS is... hmm.
I wouldn't be surprised at all if MS were to cut all support for everything out the day the agreement ends; not saying they will, but I wouldn't be surprised. Microsoft owes Apple nothing. As a matter of fact, Apple has benefited from this deal more than Microsoft has (from where I see it).
Apple is very much in the "we're better than everyone" mode and not the "we're really good especially in conjunction with all these other great products" mode.
Apple isn't playing nice now, and while that may be fun I think it fully justifies MS and others from dropping them expeditiously.
As far as MS trying to kill Apple, I don't think it matters either way to MS. I don't see Apple as being a real threat to them.
I think the real feature they don't like is iChat, which integrates with AIM and not their beloved MSN Messenger service, especially since MS couldn't get MSN and AIM integrated (supposedly).
Apple is definitely suffering from the short, little brother syndrome here. Well, maybe not Apple corporate, but certainly the Apple faithful.
Damn straight.
'Bout time Apple came out swingin'. They've been quiet ever since they pished away THEIR OS to Microsoft.
I don't think Apple does need Office anymore. Macs aren't 'office'/business machines...so...du-oh!
Hardware? Apple must have some nifty hardware a comin'. I just hope it's real Pentium bruising.
I've felt Apple have, for a long time...been showing all the right moves:
Quicktime, iApps, iTools, 'X' (and the stunning Jaguar now...), stunning design, great laptops...buying up key high end apps...eg Shake...the retail stores...a brilliant website...Unix...open source...Unix developers and Java developers...gaming on the Mac the best its been in years...only the 'innards' of the hardware ie the CPU et al need the same level of innovation and we're away. If Apple get Power 4 derivative...it's game on. Apple and IBM would make a powerful adversary.
Apple doesn't need Internet Explorer. There are plenty of alternatives.
Apple doesn't need MS Office. They have virtually no presence in the offices that I know of. So...support killed for something they DON'T have? Big deal. M$ Office...I find fussy and over complicated. If Apple can deliver it's own Office App' based on StarOffice or it's own Appleworks (I still use Claris...and...for I do...Office can't do it any better
Apple is print and multimedia and graphic arts.
We don't need M$. I don't.
Perhaps this is what M$ are worried about. Apple DOESN'T need M$ anymore. That makes them a threat. What's more...Apple does have most of the pieces in place NOW to compete...
Apple must be readying dramatic additions for M$ to be this publicly jittery. Me-owww.
Apple seem to be on a very aggressive OS assault. Maybe with Jaguar...Apple will finally feel 'Ten' is 'there' to put a massive ad' campaign behind?
Hmm. This is all very intriguing.
Steve Jobs isn't one to lapdog. This will be his and Apple's greatest test. What-oh-what do they have up their sleeve...
Apple are in a far better position to compete today than they were in 1997. By far.
Apple have 4 bilion in the bank...and 95% of the market to aim at. And are opening even more stores. M$ have got to beat Apple in light of their recent...soiled and dirty history ie under the noses of the DOJ. Crush Apple? Try.
Go ahead, M$. We're watching. We all are. Bring it on.
Lemon Bon Bon
[ 07-15-2002: Message edited by: Lemon Bon Bon ]</p>
What happened to the cooperative attitude?
...but you will merely be the last thing that it eats.
In short, sooner or later there could be no Office for Mac anyhow if Apple goes under. Get a cheap PC and run Office.
I'm glad that it is Apple that is finally waking up.
Heh. Apple are after the other 95%.
The reality of this situation is...Apple has no choice but to go for it...otherwise it will shrink out of existence. Apple has seen it's tradtional edu' and other markets eroded by Dell et al.
It's payback time. If Apple are serious about that 'other' 95% then yer gonna have to crack a few eggs... If that means saying Dell PCs are crap...that XP is tacky...if it means roughing M$ up a bit...
Lemon Bon Bon
[ 07-15-2002: Message edited by: Lemon Bon Bon ]</p>
Yeesh. An overated, fussy, cluttered ('So M$') piece of software. Most of M$ Office I find tacky from the weak Powerpoint to the 'cheap' junk pile that is 'Office'. There's not an ounce of quality or class in the suite.
If there's one company that can come out with an elegant office solution.
It's Apple.
Lemon Bon Bon
[ 07-15-2002: Message edited by: Lemon Bon Bon ]</p>
i'd rather have no office than a crap one, and then watch people blame apple for its shoddy performance. seriously, all pc users blame all mac-pc problems are always blamed on the mac for not being compatible enough. i tried to explain to a co-worker a problem occurring when transferring a word template from mac to pc, and all she could say was "oh, so the mac can't handle -- blank --?" uh, no, it's just that office won't accept any other format except -- blank--. it's like talking to a brick. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
[ 07-15-2002: Message edited by: rok ]</p>