I said that because you all seemed so hangry about Steve and Apple, so by getting a dell you would stop from pissing us off and would be all happy with your 2.2ghz WinXP DDR-ENABLED (WOW) piece of crap.
I want a power mac worth the price of upgrading!!!!!!!!!!
I want an upgradable mac! To upgrade my friends 5 year old PC to a high end modern computer it will cost $500 canadian (or ten of your US dollars).
Now if Apple made cheap "disposable" computers which you couldnt upgrade, I could understand that, but instead they make ultra expensive computers that you cant upgrade.
I know I should be screaming about the lack of 'power'Macs.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hell yeah you should be! After all the bitching I've done about your bitching about hardware, I ask you to come bitching in a bitch thread and you don't bitch! That means through some strange twist of fate I have to bitch about the fact that you're not bitching!
Overall, the complaining goes well, and I think there's enough to complain about.
For the few of you who haven't read the title of the thread, this was established as "The great AI MWNY bitching thread" So don't tell us not to complain. We're having the courtesy of doing it in the one thread *specifically* designated for it.
You don't like complaining? Like to stay positive? Got your head so far up Steve Jobs a*s that you can't see daylight? Fine, but go be your little "Apple, love it or leave it" selves and spare yourself reading or commenting on this thread. Also, spare us your comments on our (I think understandable) disappointment with today's news. This is exactly the right place for us to complain, and we're not disloyal (or unemployed, or cheap, or trolls) just because we complain. If we all said "Yes Steve, thank you Steve, here's my wallet Steve" Apple's marketshare would never improve, bacause no one would be giving constructive, critical feeback on which ideas are good, and which ones suck. Someone's got to tell the emperor his new clothes are, um, absent.
Now back to my complaining:
I've just wasted three hours of my life. No processor speed bump on the iMac at all. GeForce 4 MX is a negligable improvement to graphics. I have just wasted two hours of the life and I am frigging *no* closer to buying a new Mac. The new PowerMacs had better be cheaper *and* more powerful in the next month or I guess I'm staying with my iMac Rev A. I'm pissed that the new iApps (and .Mac) won't work on OS 8.6. Yet another old complaint, Apple promised Rev A iMac people that our systems would run OS X fine (and that it would be out 2.5 years ago). So frankly, a lot to complain about, and I'm happy to be getting it out of my system.
Apple may make a better product, but they are starting to seem just as money-grubbing as M$. Why should I be telling my friends to "Switch" to Mac when 1. Systems are more expensive 2. Hardware is behind the curve 3. Software and games are still less available and frequently more expensive and 4. Apple wants you to pay them for a suite of nice, but basic services many of which you can get for free on a PC (and sometimes on a Mac too).
Okay, my fingers are tired. I really hope there are new PMs in August, and that they are worth me pulling out the credit card.
[quote]You are ridiculous! He lowered the most popular (Superdrive) iMac by 100$ and introduced the new 17inch, 80gb , superdrive for just 1999$.
Go get a dell. <hr></blockquote>
That's 2....
Ever heard of cheaper,faster,better? Where computers get better and become ever so increasingly affordable? Am I supposed to take it as some sort of a token gift from God that Apple lowered an old model's price by a whoping $100 (yes! $100!)?? Apple released a newer and better model and RAISED the price. That's unheard of in the computer industry. Only in Cuppertino I suppose. You do realize that this isn't a good business model right? Face it, you're so far absorbed by the RDF, I think you can see up Steve's ass crack.
<strong>I said that because you all seemed so hangry about Steve and Apple, so by getting a dell you would stop from pissing us off and would be all happy with your 2.2ghz WinXP DDR-ENABLED (WOW) piece of crap.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Wow, you sure like to stir up the controversy don't you. If anything, the PC platform looks better than ever. I can now get an iPod that works on a PC OUT OF THE BOX!!! And wintel hardware is not crap. If anything, their hardware is vastly superior. The only thing keeping many people on the mac is the superior OS. But I have an OSX skin on my Windows XP and the user experience is just about as good. We are bitching because we care, and you need to understand that. We want Apple to not just survive but to actually gain marketshare, and with what came out today, they will have a hard time keeping many existing customers.
Come on Steve, 133mhz bus and 900mhz G4 on the iMac, that's all I ask. Well, that and DDR G4's.
<strong>his freakin' .mac promotion sounded like an infomercial. worthless. $99. ugh!</strong><hr></blockquote>All he needed was "you can get all this, a $250 value, for only 5 easy payments of $19.95"... then it would be classic infomercial style.
Let's see... I'm posting from the MegaMall Apple Store. It was a bit disappointing. No new PowerMacs, charging for email, charging a lot for Jaguar... looks like the bad economy is setting in. I wish the iPod software updater was up, but I did download iTunes 3 already. Having the extra organizer functions will be nice, and I'll definitely be buying that wired remote for my iPod.
BTW, this is my first time seeing an eMac in person. It looks okay. A bit clunky, but not as bad as I thought. I'm using one right now. And the screen is flicker free enough for me, even at max resolution.
So altogether not the greatest Macworld convention, but it looks like they'll be updating some of their other lines fairly soon.
When you think about it, they're not charging an outrageous price for .Mac. I only use it for email so I'll be canceling my account, but considering Hotmail charges you $20 a month, the $8.25 a month price of .Mac isn't too bad. Not worth it, but not a complete ripoff.
Yesterday Apple said that they had 60 yes 60 day of stock in the channel. They can't speed bump the iMacs or intro new PowerMacs untill they have shifted some of the stock. I don't know who is going to buy a new Mac between now and Aug-24 and pay $19.95 for 10.2 on top though.
The 17" iMac is going to kill the 15" Superdrive model. It is fantastic value. Hugely improved video card, larger hard disk, and that fantastic screen with better resoloution.
I think we will see new PM's and speed bumps all over the shop at a special event as soon as some of the inventry has shifted. August the 13th seems like a very good bet to me.
Its gettin´ kind of spooky this...don´t you guys remember what Dorsal M said (or was it Moki? Cant friggin remember)?
He laid out exactly how we would feel the next cpl of months...with the start the 17th of July.
He said that we would be dissappointed, in August it would be brighter and by the time around January something really nice would happen. Anyone remember exactly what was written? And by whom?
So here's what I don't understand. Apple needs to clear PM inventory. Most people are waiting for a speed bump on processor and RAM. This is most true for the discriminating, high-end type customer.
So Apple, in it's wisedom, makes a promotion to clear the channel of the old PMs, but make it tied to expensive LCD screens. I am exactly the kind of poor shmuck who would compromise and buy the current PM G4 933 right now if the price was right, but *most people who buy discount don't buy LCDs*!!! We buy a higher-end CRT, either Apple branded, Viewsonic, Trinitron, etc. I'd pay 1/2 of what the regular price is of the 15" Apple LCD is. If you gave me that $300 (US) discount as a rebate on the 933, and let me buy it bundled with a CRT from a local Mac reseller, you'd have a deal. So who do they think are going to buy these over-stocked PM G4s? The high-end crowd will wait and the lower-end PM crowd won't be able to afford to use the Crystal Clear promotion.
Apple continues to deny the Wintel people's label that it is a boutique brand, but they continue to assume that we're all made of money. That's boutique thinking isn't it?
You do realize that this isn't a good business model right?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I completely agree that Apple has got to get their hardware up to par technology wise with the PC market (getting in DDR, faster processors, etc.). However, they have been making profits($32 million last quarter), and I think their current moves are good to help them generate additional revenue. .Mac and Jaguar, overpriced as they may be, will still generate a decent amount of revenue for Apple, and assuming the PowerMacs get a bump in August, that'll help their slumping sales. The iBooks seem to be selling fine, and the 17" iMac will find it's niche with people who wanted the bigger screen. iPod for PC is a great move, I know of several friends who said "Hey, why is it only for the Mac?", and many people who hesitated on the PC side will probably buy it now.
Sure, there will be tons of people who won't readily adopt Apple's .Mac, or Jaguar. But they've made enough moves in my opinion to keep a steady flow of revenue coming. Hopefully, better hardware will follow, and things will be better.
[quote]Originally posted by Yet Another Registration:
<strong>I am totally looking forward to the gripefest. Seriously, if some of you guys put your griping efforts towards something productive, you might just make something of yourselves......
/me grabs popcorn and waits for the fray
ting5</strong><hr></blockquote>
We are in total agreement on this one. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
I was at the keynote and heard some info that I was probably not suppossed to hear from some Apple bigwigs. First the 15" iMac is basically dead as soon as the channels clear. Next there were supposed to be new towers but they were not ready in time (As a note it is almost impossible to find the towers in the Apple booth). Next Jaguar was going to be given out today but they have some fine tuning to do with Sherlock 3, something to do with rights to use a certain website.
(I'll try to fit something in by the end of this post...)
DaveLee. Yep. We aint in Kansis City anymore. Apple has got to compete. Functionality. Services. And...yep. We gotta pay for them. We're lucky that we aint paying as much for them and the quality iapps as Windows users are. It had to come. Apple need to generate extra revenue from somewhere! Still, I'm sure we'll see a BIG drop in 'iTools' subscribers.
"I completely agree that Apple has got to get their hardware up to par technology wise with the PC market (getting in DDR, faster processors, etc.). However, they have been making profits($32 million last quarter), and I think their current moves are good to help them generate additional revenue. .Mac and Jaguar, overpriced as they may be, will still generate a decent amount of revenue for Apple, and assuming the PowerMacs get a bump in August, that'll help their slumping sales. The iBooks seem to be selling fine, and the 17" iMac will find it's niche with people who wanted the bigger screen. iPod for PC is a great move, I know of several friends who said "Hey, why is it only for the Mac?", and many people who hesitated on the PC side will probably buy it now."
Spot on. You said it. People know what I think about Apple's lame and out of date specs. The moves on display today... Not popular moves with the 'mac faithful'. But strategic moves all the same...for the 'Switch' (BIG) picture. I wonder just how many PC users WILL buy the iPod then? I'm looking forward to Apple's next balance sheet roll call.
Now, software wise. Todays Macworld, for me, was special. Maya 4.5 announced first on the Mac?! 25% of their installed base are now Mac users!!! That IS amazing! This was a company that didn't know the Mac existed at one point. This IS very good news. All the extra iapps and increased functionality of present ones was...well, it WAS impressive. All free...or built in...or downloadable. There are some 'free' carrots. Jaguar is stunning. 10.1 fixed alot of the problems with the 'beta' (heh) release. Jaguar. To me...it's a full update. Gotta pay. I will pay. It IS worth it. Some people may feel it should have been 10.1...
Spec wise. Apple still needs to sort itself out. It's the one area they just seem soooooo far behind in. No DDR. Slow bus. A G4 processor whose development is out of step with the rest of the cpu industry by a year at least. Four years old? Single fpu that cannot cut it any more. Without Altivec it would be a laughing stock. Even with Altivec the discontinued processors...or processors in £500 PCs give the G4 a serious thumping. A single 1 gig G4 can barely live with a 1.2 Athlon. There's mhz myth and taking the P*SS Apple.
The G5 should have arrived this year in my book. Instead...it looks like we won't get the 'G5' that Moki's hinting at until this time NEXT year! This simply ISN'T good enough! I can understand Apple junking Moto's G5 (which was single core...?) and going with IBM's multicore talents. It gives Apple loads of options if mhz is an issue in future...throughput and multicore will change the landscape of CPU perceptions (Intel are going to have to explain why the Itanic 2 trounces a Pentium 4 2.8! )
In the meantime..? Well, I hope that Apple have an 'Nforce 2' motherboard and enhanced GPU AND dual 1.4 G4 to deflect another half year of bad Pro' sales. IF all they've got is a dual 1.2 on pseudo ddr ram/bus then...oh dear.
Yeesh. The current 'power'Macs can't live with x86 land now. Ramping up a G4 to 2 gig on a Rio board won't save them!
ie x86 won't be standing still. They'll have Sledgehammers at yet higher mhz...on Hypertransport...WITH 30% more work done per clock on a 64 bit processor!
If the disparity seems bad now...
Bunge, my frequent Apple rants are no reflection on them as a software company. And their moves on the high end Post pro' industry seem intriguing.
But...the hardare...while stunning with design...only mask a cheap con trick in terms of performance and actual specs. Put the current towers in a beige box and you think you got a sub-£500 wintel box with the p*ss poor specs.
Yeesh. The next towers? Stop gap. IF its an Nforce solution with 1.4 G4s...with the next gen NVidia card...then...you see some level of optimism for the Pro' Apple market.
But we really need those G5s. I WILL buy WHEN THEY DELIVER a TRUE next gen' level of performance. The hardware specs are letting down superb software.
Comments
I want an upgradable mac! To upgrade my friends 5 year old PC to a high end modern computer it will cost $500 canadian (or ten of your US dollars).
Now if Apple made cheap "disposable" computers which you couldnt upgrade, I could understand that, but instead they make ultra expensive computers that you cant upgrade.
<strong>Hmmm.
I know I should be screaming about the lack of 'power'Macs.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hell yeah you should be! After all the bitching I've done about your bitching about hardware, I ask you to come bitching in a bitch thread and you don't bitch! That means through some strange twist of fate I have to bitch about the fact that you're not bitching!
What a strange [Mac]world we're living in....
For the few of you who haven't read the title of the thread, this was established as "The great AI MWNY bitching thread" So don't tell us not to complain.
You don't like complaining? Like to stay positive? Got your head so far up Steve Jobs a*s that you can't see daylight? Fine, but go be your little "Apple, love it or leave it" selves and spare yourself reading or commenting on this thread. Also, spare us your comments on our (I think understandable) disappointment with today's news. This is exactly the right place for us to complain, and we're not disloyal (or unemployed, or cheap, or trolls) just because we complain. If we all said "Yes Steve, thank you Steve, here's my wallet Steve" Apple's marketshare would never improve, bacause no one would be giving constructive, critical feeback on which ideas are good, and which ones suck. Someone's got to tell the emperor his new clothes are, um, absent.
Now back to my complaining:
I've just wasted three hours of my life. No processor speed bump on the iMac at all. GeForce 4 MX is a negligable improvement to graphics. I have just wasted two hours of the life and I am frigging *no* closer to buying a new Mac. The new PowerMacs had better be cheaper *and* more powerful in the next month or I guess I'm staying with my iMac Rev A. I'm pissed that the new iApps (and .Mac) won't work on OS 8.6. Yet another old complaint, Apple promised Rev A iMac people that our systems would run OS X fine (and that it would be out 2.5 years ago). So frankly, a lot to complain about, and I'm happy to be getting it out of my system.
Apple may make a better product, but they are starting to seem just as money-grubbing as M$. Why should I be telling my friends to "Switch" to Mac when 1. Systems are more expensive 2. Hardware is behind the curve 3. Software and games are still less available and frequently more expensive and 4. Apple wants you to pay them for a suite of nice, but basic services many of which you can get for free on a PC (and sometimes on a Mac too).
Okay, my fingers are tired. I really hope there are new PMs in August, and that they are worth me pulling out the credit card.
*sigh*
Go get a dell. <hr></blockquote>
That's 2....
Ever heard of cheaper,faster,better? Where computers get better and become ever so increasingly affordable? Am I supposed to take it as some sort of a token gift from God that Apple lowered an old model's price by a whoping $100 (yes! $100!)?? Apple released a newer and better model and RAISED the price. That's unheard of in the computer industry. Only in Cuppertino I suppose. You do realize that this isn't a good business model right? Face it, you're so far absorbed by the RDF, I think you can see up Steve's ass crack.
<strong>I said that because you all seemed so hangry about Steve and Apple, so by getting a dell you would stop from pissing us off and would be all happy with your 2.2ghz WinXP DDR-ENABLED (WOW) piece of crap.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Wow, you sure like to stir up the controversy don't you. If anything, the PC platform looks better than ever. I can now get an iPod that works on a PC OUT OF THE BOX!!! And wintel hardware is not crap. If anything, their hardware is vastly superior. The only thing keeping many people on the mac is the superior OS. But I have an OSX skin on my Windows XP and the user experience is just about as good. We are bitching because we care, and you need to understand that. We want Apple to not just survive but to actually gain marketshare, and with what came out today, they will have a hard time keeping many existing customers.
Come on Steve, 133mhz bus and 900mhz G4 on the iMac, that's all I ask. Well, that and DDR G4's.
Apple needs to address it.
Tiger99. I like your posts. Often fair...often optimistic and balanced. But when you don't like something you 'call' it. Fair enough.
I can understand where you're coming from. Part of me feels the same way (I'm gagging for a POWERmac...)
...but today...? I think it was about the big picture.
Unfortunately...that means some disappointment for now.
We'll get 'ours' in next year, I'm sure...
Lemon
Fighting M$ at its own game. <hr></blockquote>
Unfortunately you may be very correct about this.
Ah well, wait for August to roll around I guess.
<strong>his freakin' .mac promotion sounded like an infomercial. worthless. $99. ugh!</strong><hr></blockquote>All he needed was "you can get all this, a $250 value, for only 5 easy payments of $19.95"... then it would be classic infomercial style.
BTW, this is my first time seeing an eMac in person. It looks okay. A bit clunky, but not as bad as I thought. I'm using one right now. And the screen is flicker free enough for me, even at max resolution.
So altogether not the greatest Macworld convention, but it looks like they'll be updating some of their other lines fairly soon.
When you think about it, they're not charging an outrageous price for .Mac. I only use it for email so I'll be canceling my account, but considering Hotmail charges you $20 a month, the $8.25 a month price of .Mac isn't too bad. Not worth it, but not a complete ripoff.
[ 07-17-2002: Message edited by: Luca Rescigno ]</p>
Yesterday Apple said that they had 60 yes 60 day of stock in the channel. They can't speed bump the iMacs or intro new PowerMacs untill they have shifted some of the stock. I don't know who is going to buy a new Mac between now and Aug-24 and pay $19.95 for 10.2 on top though.
The 17" iMac is going to kill the 15" Superdrive model. It is fantastic value. Hugely improved video card, larger hard disk, and that fantastic screen with better resoloution.
I think we will see new PM's and speed bumps all over the shop at a special event as soon as some of the inventry has shifted. August the 13th seems like a very good bet to me.
He laid out exactly how we would feel the next cpl of months...with the start the 17th of July.
He said that we would be dissappointed, in August it would be brighter and by the time around January something really nice would happen. Anyone remember exactly what was written? And by whom?
So here's what I don't understand. Apple needs to clear PM inventory. Most people are waiting for a speed bump on processor and RAM. This is most true for the discriminating, high-end type customer.
So Apple, in it's wisedom, makes a promotion to clear the channel of the old PMs, but make it tied to expensive LCD screens. I am exactly the kind of poor shmuck who would compromise and buy the current PM G4 933 right now if the price was right, but *most people who buy discount don't buy LCDs*!!! We buy a higher-end CRT, either Apple branded, Viewsonic, Trinitron, etc. I'd pay 1/2 of what the regular price is of the 15" Apple LCD is. If you gave me that $300 (US) discount as a rebate on the 933, and let me buy it bundled with a CRT from a local Mac reseller, you'd have a deal. So who do they think are going to buy these over-stocked PM G4s? The high-end crowd will wait and the lower-end PM crowd won't be able to afford to use the Crystal Clear promotion.
Apple continues to deny the Wintel people's label that it is a boutique brand, but they continue to assume that we're all made of money. That's boutique thinking isn't it?
<strong>
Come on Steve, 133mhz bus and 900mhz G4 on the iMac, that's all I ask. Well, that and DDR G4's.</strong><hr></blockquote>
a 933 mhz G4 on a 133 mhz bus will be better
I agree with the rest of your post indeed.
<strong>
You do realize that this isn't a good business model right?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I completely agree that Apple has got to get their hardware up to par technology wise with the PC market (getting in DDR, faster processors, etc.). However, they have been making profits($32 million last quarter), and I think their current moves are good to help them generate additional revenue. .Mac and Jaguar, overpriced as they may be, will still generate a decent amount of revenue for Apple, and assuming the PowerMacs get a bump in August, that'll help their slumping sales. The iBooks seem to be selling fine, and the 17" iMac will find it's niche with people who wanted the bigger screen. iPod for PC is a great move, I know of several friends who said "Hey, why is it only for the Mac?", and many people who hesitated on the PC side will probably buy it now.
Sure, there will be tons of people who won't readily adopt Apple's .Mac, or Jaguar. But they've made enough moves in my opinion to keep a steady flow of revenue coming. Hopefully, better hardware will follow, and things will be better.
<strong>I am totally looking forward to the gripefest. Seriously, if some of you guys put your griping efforts towards something productive, you might just make something of yourselves......
/me grabs popcorn and waits for the fray
ting5</strong><hr></blockquote>
We are in total agreement on this one. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
(I'll try to fit something in by the end of this post...)
DaveLee. Yep. We aint in Kansis City anymore. Apple has got to compete. Functionality. Services. And...yep. We gotta pay for them. We're lucky that we aint paying as much for them and the quality iapps as Windows users are. It had to come. Apple need to generate extra revenue from somewhere! Still, I'm sure we'll see a BIG drop in 'iTools' subscribers.
"I completely agree that Apple has got to get their hardware up to par technology wise with the PC market (getting in DDR, faster processors, etc.). However, they have been making profits($32 million last quarter), and I think their current moves are good to help them generate additional revenue. .Mac and Jaguar, overpriced as they may be, will still generate a decent amount of revenue for Apple, and assuming the PowerMacs get a bump in August, that'll help their slumping sales. The iBooks seem to be selling fine, and the 17" iMac will find it's niche with people who wanted the bigger screen. iPod for PC is a great move, I know of several friends who said "Hey, why is it only for the Mac?", and many people who hesitated on the PC side will probably buy it now."
Spot on. You said it. People know what I think about Apple's lame and out of date specs. The moves on display today... Not popular moves with the 'mac faithful'. But strategic moves all the same...for the 'Switch' (BIG) picture. I wonder just how many PC users WILL buy the iPod then? I'm looking forward to Apple's next balance sheet roll call.
Now, software wise. Todays Macworld, for me, was special. Maya 4.5 announced first on the Mac?! 25% of their installed base are now Mac users!!! That IS amazing! This was a company that didn't know the Mac existed at one point. This IS very good news. All the extra iapps and increased functionality of present ones was...well, it WAS impressive. All free...or built in...or downloadable. There are some 'free' carrots. Jaguar is stunning. 10.1 fixed alot of the problems with the 'beta' (heh) release. Jaguar. To me...it's a full update. Gotta pay. I will pay. It IS worth it. Some people may feel it should have been 10.1...
Spec wise. Apple still needs to sort itself out. It's the one area they just seem soooooo far behind in. No DDR. Slow bus. A G4 processor whose development is out of step with the rest of the cpu industry by a year at least. Four years old? Single fpu that cannot cut it any more. Without Altivec it would be a laughing stock. Even with Altivec the discontinued processors...or processors in £500 PCs give the G4 a serious thumping. A single 1 gig G4 can barely live with a 1.2 Athlon. There's mhz myth and taking the P*SS Apple.
The G5 should have arrived this year in my book. Instead...it looks like we won't get the 'G5' that Moki's hinting at until this time NEXT year! This simply ISN'T good enough! I can understand Apple junking Moto's G5 (which was single core...?) and going with IBM's multicore talents. It gives Apple loads of options if mhz is an issue in future...throughput and multicore will change the landscape of CPU perceptions (Intel are going to have to explain why the Itanic 2 trounces a Pentium 4 2.8!
In the meantime..? Well, I hope that Apple have an 'Nforce 2' motherboard and enhanced GPU AND dual 1.4 G4 to deflect another half year of bad Pro' sales. IF all they've got is a dual 1.2 on pseudo ddr ram/bus then...oh dear.
Yeesh. The current 'power'Macs can't live with x86 land now. Ramping up a G4 to 2 gig on a Rio board won't save them!
ie x86 won't be standing still. They'll have Sledgehammers at yet higher mhz...on Hypertransport...WITH 30% more work done per clock on a 64 bit processor!
If the disparity seems bad now...
Bunge, my frequent Apple rants are no reflection on them as a software company. And their moves on the high end Post pro' industry seem intriguing.
But...the hardare...while stunning with design...only mask a cheap con trick in terms of performance and actual specs. Put the current towers in a beige box and you think you got a sub-£500 wintel box with the p*ss poor specs.
Yeesh. The next towers? Stop gap. IF its an Nforce solution with 1.4 G4s...with the next gen NVidia card...then...you see some level of optimism for the Pro' Apple market.
But we really need those G5s. I WILL buy WHEN THEY DELIVER a TRUE next gen' level of performance. The hardware specs are letting down superb software.
Apple...you are so close...and yet SO far.
Lemon Bon Bon
[ 07-17-2002: Message edited by: Leonis ]</p>