It's true only if you're a Nero or Hitler wanna-be. But this is what it's coming to. Our society has abandoned and disregarded God. The few who still follow Him will be "taken care of" while others approve. Sound familiar???
It's true only if you're a Nero or Hitler wanna-be. But this is what it's coming to. Our society has abandoned and disregarded God. The few who still follow Him will be "taken care of" while others approve. Sound familiar???
You're right...We know who you are. We know where you are. We've sent out a team to pick you up. Pack a bag.
"David Knowles reports at Bloomberg that former Hewlett-Packard CEO and potential 2016 presidential candidate Carly Fiorina called out Apple CEO Tim Cook as a hypocrite for criticizing Indiana and Arkansas over their Religious Freedom Restoration Acts while at the same time doing business in countries where gay rights are non-existent. "When Tim Cook is upset about all the places that he does business because of the way they treat gays and women, he needs to withdraw from 90% of the markets that he's in, including China and Saudi Arabia," Fiorina said. "But I don't hear him being upset about that."
Didn't HP do business in China (and many other suspect countries) when Carly was at the helm?
I'm not sure what you quoted because it doesn't show up in the form, but I know you quoted me.
Society has neither abandoned nor disregarded God. However, society does not agree on one God. We do not live in a mono-religious society, or theocracy. We never have, and that is not the way the founding fathers intended it to be.
If people are going after Christians, then they're going to go after the Muslims, Buddhists, the Wiccan, etc. Nobody's looking for or wants a religious purge. The passage of marriage equality is not the end of civilization. Marriage equality already existed in many states and in a few dozen countries around the world.
This hyperbolic paranoia or chicken little syndrome is absurd. Nobody cares what you believe in religiously. Carry on with your life.
It's true only if you're a Nero or Hitler wanna-be. But this is what it's coming to. Our society has abandoned and disregarded God. The few who still follow Him will be "taken care of" while others approve. Sound familiar???
Didn't HP do business in China (and many other suspect countries) when Carly was at the helm?
Of course they did but that isn't the point. The point is Tim Cook puts himself out there as one of the most vocal activists always commenting on issues in the US, yet no push back at all on other counties where Apple does business. If someone puts themselves on this moral soapbox then they have put themselves out there at a higher standard.
A perfect example on the other side, Donald Trump made a comment about illegal Mexicans coming into the US, he is taking a beating and loosing business. I'm a Republican and I don't feel sorry for him for one second, if he is going to open his big mouth then he has to pay the price for it. Doesn't seem to be the same standard on the other side.
Of course they did but that isn't the point. The point is Tim Cook puts himself out there as one of the most vocal activists always commenting on issues in the US, yet no push back at all on other counties where Apple does business. If someone puts themselves on this moral soapbox then they have put themselves out there at a higher standard.
A perfect example on the other side, Donald Trump made a comment about illegal Mexicans coming into the US, he is taking a beating and loosing business. I'm a Republican and I don't feel sorry for him for one second, if he is going to open his big mouth then he has to pay the price for it. Doesn't seem to be the same standard on the other side.
Didn't she try to make a point about religious freedom? Why is that different? Because she says nothing about abuses that makes her statements credible? When Mr. Cook speaks you don't think that point of view doesn't get to people in those countries? He is a US citizen.
Republican politicians have been making comments like Trumps for quite a few years now. Suddenly, because of a Presidential election, the same candidates, that have said nothing, decided to speak out. Rick Perry went against the grain in the last Presidential debate to a hail of booing from the base in the audience. What derogatory statement did Tim Cook make towards anyone?
Ignore what facts? Not only are they amply recognized in my post, but it also makes a direct point about whether those are any of Tim Cook's business or not.
Shallowness is most certainly not in short supply.
Yes you ignored facts in the post only to comment on what Carly Fiorina said. I agree shallowness is most certainly not in short supply hopefully you will work on that. Let me know when you can actually debate why this seems to be a US only issue for Tim Cook and why he can put himself on this moral high ground until it could impact his bottom line.
Even better have Tim load up a bunch of Apple employees on a 777 and fly over to one of these countries and host a demonstration on gay and human rights. Then lets see how many actually make it back alive. Want to bet you could fit them on a puddle jumper?
Example I just used, Donald Trump opens his big mouth about Mexicans, he is taking a beating as he should. However I find it interesting that very few people call out liberals when they are hypocrites. To ignore the fact that Tim Cook and Obama are up each others butts ( no pun intended) and this is a political issue no one ever calls liberals out for their hypocrisy.
I know you have this big issue about calling something liberal or conservative but no one can deny this is political. The freaking White House was lit up with rainbow lights. That is suppose to be the peoples house and neutral ground. It was a disgrace. This also has nothing to do with love, it has everything to do with federal benefits. It's 100% political and Tim Cook has inserted himself right in the middle.
Someone on the right makes a comment everyone wants them fired because they don't believe in gay marriage. Someone on the left is always on his soapbox yet is never called out for the rants to only be on safe ground.
Yes you ignored facts in the post only to comment on what Carly Fiorina said. I agree shallowness is most certainly not in short supply hopefully you will work on that. Let me know when you can actually debate why this seems to be a US only issue for Tim Cook and why he can put himself on this moral high ground until it could impact his bottom line.
Even better have Tim load up a bunch of Apple employees on a 777 and fly over to one of these countries and host a demonstration on gay and human rights. Then lets see how many actually make it back alive. Want to bet you could fit them on a puddle jumper?
Example I just used, Donald Trump opens his big mouth about Mexicans, he is taking a beating as he should. However I find it interesting that very few people call out liberals when they are hypocrites. To ignore the fact that Tim Cook and Obama are up each others butts ( no pun intended) and this is a political issue no one ever calls liberals out for their hypocrisy.
I know you have this big issue about calling something liberal or conservative but no one can deny this is political. The freaking White House was lit up with rainbow lights. That is suppose to be the peoples house and neutral ground. It was a disgrace. This also has nothing to do with love, it has everything to do with federal benefits. It's 100% political and Tim Cook has inserted himself right in the middle.
Someone on the right makes a comment everyone wants them fired because they don't believe in gay marriage. Someone on the left is always on his soapbox yet is never called out for the rants to only be on safe ground.
Hmmmm are you saying conservatives never voice their opinion about someone that they don't agree with? What are you doing now? The White House has a point of view no matter who is in office. Did the last guy that lived their have a neutral point of view or is just that a Democrat is in office that suddenly you are outraged?
Yes you ignored facts in the post only to comment on what Carly Fiorina said. I agree shallowness is most certainly not in short supply hopefully you will work on that. Let me know when you can actually debate why this seems to be a US only issue for Tim Cook and why he can put himself on this moral high ground until it could impact his bottom line.
Even better have Tim load up a bunch of Apple employees on a 777 and fly over to one of these countries and host a demonstration on gay and human rights. Then lets see how many actually make it back alive. Want to bet you could fit them on a puddle jumper?
Example I just used, Donald Trump opens his big mouth about Mexicans, he is taking a beating as he should. However I find it interesting that very few people call out liberals when they are hypocrites. To ignore the fact that Tim Cook and Obama are up each others butts ( no pun intended) and this is a political issue no one ever calls liberals out for their hypocrisy.
I know you have this big issue about calling something liberal or conservative but no one can deny this is political. The freaking White House was lit up with rainbow lights. That is suppose to be the peoples house and neutral ground. It was a disgrace. This also has nothing to do with love, it has everything to do with federal benefits. It's 100% political and Tim Cook has inserted himself right in the middle.
Someone on the right makes a comment everyone wants them fired because they don't believe in gay marriage. Someone on the left is always on his soapbox yet is never called out for the rants to only be on safe ground.
I refuse to be baited by someone whose views are illiberal and now obviously dense on this issue. My signature lays it out for you to read and reflect, fwiw.
Btw, I was being polite when I referred to Fiorina as being 'shallow.'
Of course they did but that isn't the point. The point is Tim Cook puts himself out there as one of the most vocal activists always commenting on issues in the US, yet no push back at all on other counties where Apple does business. If someone puts themselves on this moral soapbox then they have put themselves out there at a higher standard.
A perfect example on the other side, Donald Trump made a comment about illegal Mexicans coming into the US, he is taking a beating and loosing business. I'm a Republican and I don't feel sorry for him for one second, if he is going to open his big mouth then he has to pay the price for it. Doesn't seem to be the same standard on the other side.
Your little manufactured quarrel with Tim Cook, which is the same as Fiorina's, is hilarious in its simple-mindedness.
Civic or business leaders have an obligation to speak out for justice within their home countries when the time is right for change.
They are prohibited by ages of civilized custom from sticking their noses into the moral affairs of other countries, even if they do business or conduct other affairs with the other country.
How can you possibly confuse these two very separate mandates? My guess is that you straining to find some way of opposing Apple's stand on inclusivity without getting flamed for being anti-human rights. Slurpy is probably right to call it cowardice. Regardless, you are refusing to recognize a very basic difference. So basic, I have to call it simple-minded
Hypocrisy? Name one Silicon Valley hardware company who has been more public and transparent about the issues facing their supply chain than Apple.
Wow, are you really that naive? Why would anyone in their right mind rely on a multinational corporation to do any more than pay lip service to these issues; doing so allows them to maintain a semblance of 'concern' back in the West while leaving intact a business model—one built on exploiting labor—from which they make even more billions of dollars profit. I've already provided one reason (labor laws/working conditions/wages) why they should bring those jobs home to the US, or to Europe, Canada, or any other place which has some respect for workers' rights. Here are some more, from an organization which is *cough* 'slightly' more credible than Apple or any other tech multinational in providing an accurate and FULLY transparent assessment of the situation in China:
"Amnesty International has documented widespread human rights violations in China. An estimated 500,000 people are currently enduring punitive detention without charge or trial, and millions are unable to access the legal system to seek redress for their grievances. Harassment, surveillance, house arrest, and imprisonment of human rights defenders are on the rise, and censorship of the Internet and other media has grown. Repression of minority groups, including Tibetans, Uighurs and Mongolians, and of Falun Gong practitioners and Christians who practice their religion outside state-sanctioned churches continues. While the recent reinstatement of Supreme People's Court review of death penalty cases may result in lower numbers of executions, China remains the leading executioner in the world."
To which I would say, how 'proud' are you of that, Mr. Cook? Where are your marches of support for those people? As your commendable activism for gay rights illustrates, talk minus action = zero.
Wow, are you really that naive? Why would anyone in their right mind rely on a multinational corporation to do any more than pay lip service to these issues; doing so allows them to maintain a semblance of 'concern' back in the West while leaving intact a business model—one built on exploiting labor—from which they make even more billions of dollars profit.
[ . . . ]
To which I would say, how 'proud' are you of that, Mr. Cook? Where are your marches of support for those people? As your commendable activism for gay rights illustrates, talk minus action = zero.
So Apple and Tim Cook are lying, according to you. And they should "bring those jobs back" to the US, according to you. And Tom Cook should be joining or leading "marches of support" for the exploited Asian workers, according to you.
Where do you think the marches should take place? In the US? In China? Since you called Suddenly Newton naive, I think you owe us a realistic answer to the question. Where do you want these marches? And an answer to the question, where do you want the new US Asian-style consumer electronics business to be located? Details, please. Or shut up, since this is a thread about Apple's participation in their home city's—San Francisco's—Pride celebration.
Flaneur is actually trying to educate you with some important facts and perspectives, and all you can bring by way of a response is to pile on crappy, cliched shallowness upon further crappy, cliched shallowness.
'Excuses'? From whom? 'Somehow you think,' therefore it must be? What are 'R&D institutes'? Can you provide some examples? Universities? How does having the 'best universities in the world' allow you to manufacture something better, cheaper, and higher quality? Can you provide an example of whether and how universities have contributed to better, cheaper electronics manufacturing? Where did you get '700000'? Cite? Btw, how are you how going to replicate the supply chain for these 700000 people to assemble stuff? Do you have a sense of what the all-in-cost of doing something like this in the U.S. would be, compared to China? Can you share your analysis with us, instead of pulling an assertion out of your a**?
Your post is just so typical of someone who can't or does not get past business headlines. Pathetic.
(Fixed typos)
Have you not been paying any attention at all to this thread? Please, get yourself a good strong coffee or something and wake up. Excuses? From Apple, obviously. The figure of 700,000 workers was provided by your fool-in-arms Flaneur (this reply is for him and Slurpy, too) as a justification for the 'impossibility' of creating enough manufacturing/assembly jobs in the US or Europe. I illustrated how the West is more than capable of doing this—if we simply decide to do so.
R&D means 'research and development'. These are research institutes/entities (or RTDs in Europe) involved in the cutting edge scientific/technological research which make possible (among other things) the application of that research in modern society, including but by no means limited to Apple products. These entities may be attached to the state, universities, or the private sector, or combinations thereof. They are instrumental in providing the science and/or conceptual/working framework behind the development of say, an iPhone (hence why it says "Designed by Apple in California" on an iPhone box). Examples below.
You couch your request for an example in pseudo-obfuscation by insinuating that cheap labor is a major factor in scientific enquiry and technological development itself (news flash, most times it's not); or that the West somehow can't provide enough high-quality engineers to design plants and manage production processes; which is nonsense (see below). The ONLY reason those factories are in China and not somewhere much closer to home is because western multinationals would have a lower profit margin if they had to pay American, European, Japanese or Korean workers a living, legal wage in their respective country, which is why in general they avoid doing so. You seem to have trouble grasping this most basic fact. Do you seriously believe that the US/Europe are somehow incapable of matching Chinese "expertise" in science and/or the development of technology/manufacturing/manufacturing processes? Hilarious! Again, see the numbers below.
You ask, "Do you have a sense of what the all-in-cost of doing something like this in the U.S. would be, compared to China? Can you share your analysis with us, instead of pulling an assertion out of your a**?" You're asking the wrong question. The pertinent one is, Do YOU have any sense of the impact on the West of NOT doing this, not only for our manufacturing sector, but throughout the entire economy including our service and support industries? Clearly, you don't, because your head is lost somewhere the sun don't shine. Last I read, Apple has $192 billion in cash reserves. Let's look at what a fraction of that could buy. Intel's new cutting edge chip fabrication plant in Arizona cost ('only') $5 billion, and is keeping jobs in the US, where workers (at least not yet) do NOT have to work 14 hour days for $1.98 an hour. What part of that math can you not comprehend?
Examples of R&D institutes? Sure! Here's a list of the world's best, as gauged by citation and peer-reviewed journal indices. Have you actually worked in an R&D institute in China? Because based on your defeatist and simplistic replies I'd be very surprised if you'd ever had any experience of what often passes for academic/research publication there, not to mention the 'quality assurance' standards absent from so many Chinese factories (we've all read those stories or have heard a personal anecdote). Regardless, I've provided a few other facts for your sorely-needed benefit. Read 'em and weep:
ENGINEERING R&D INSTITUTES WORLD RANKING, INCLUDING COUNTRY (2014):
In order, highest rank first. American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics USA; Partners HealthCare System USA; Rice University USA; National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration USA; Laboratoire Central des Ponts et Chaussees FRA; City University of Hong Kong HKG;Harvard University USA; Swiss Federal Institute of Technology CHE; University of Pennsylvania USA; Northwestern University, Evanston USA; Massachusetts Institute of Technology USA; Utrecht University NLD; Stanford University USA; National ICT Australia AUS; Brown University USA; General Motors Company USA; Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers, USA; University of Amsterdam NLD; Columbia University USA; The Hong Kong University of Science and Technology HKG; Microsoft Corporation USA. Etc. See a pattern there? Good. The same patterns exist for Materials Science, Computer Science, Physics, Medicine, etc.
(If you can't follow the written methodological/evaluation criteria, the little blue circles on the accompanying map mean 'high quality R&D' and the little red ones 'not so high quality'. See where most of the blue, and most of the red, lie?)
NOBEL LAUREATES BY COUNTRY (to 2014) Physics, Physiology or Medicine, Chemistry, Literature, and Peace: Highest rank first. USA, 256; UK, 93; Germany, 80; France, 52; Sweden, 28; Russia, 27, Poland, 26; Japan, 21; Italy, 19; Austria, 17.
FIELDS MEDALS (the 'Mathematics Nobel', awarded once every 4 years); Highest rank first. USA, 14 (one of the recipients was born in China); France, 13; Russia, 9; UK, 6; Japan, 3.
WORLD UNIVERSITY RANKINGS 2015 (IN SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY FIELDS): Highest rank first. MIT, USA (including instrumentation, mechatronics, robotics and automation), Stanford; USA; Caltech, USA; Princeton, USA; University of Cambridge, UK; Imperial College London, UK; University of Oxford, UK; ETH Zurich, Switzerland; UCLA, USA; Berkely, USA.
So Apple and Tim Cook are lying, according to you. And they should "bring those jobs back" to the US, according to you. And Tom Cook should be joining or leading "marches of support" for the exploited Asian workers, according to you.
Where do you think the marches should take place? In the US? In China? Since you called Suddenly Newton naive, I think you owe us a realistic answer to the question. Where do you want these marches? And an answer to the question, where do you want the new US Asian-style consumer electronics business to be located? Details, please. Or shut up, since this is a thread about Apple's participation in their home city's—San Francisco's—Pride celebration.
You write that like you think it's some great challenge for me to do so.
For Americans the marches should take place in the US. And they should be very well publicized. However, the likelihood of me seeing this is virtually nil because, 1) Apple don't care enough to do that, and 2), because freedom of expression, assembly, and certainly the freedom to form a union, are not exactly encouraged in China. The repression, disappearance, jailing, and execution of those who do seek such social, political, and human rights, however, is. And those issues are FAR more important than a pride march in San Francisco.
Sounds like I got your undies in a twist. I guess you don't like it when somebody calls you on your bullshit.
Actually, as I've written, apple is supporting its employee LGBT group during pride, as it does all of its employee groups when they participate in different events. Such as the During the breast cancer run in downtown SF annually. You trying to make this something else is laughable. If you hold someone to a standard, you need to hold everyone else to the same standard including yourself or else you are a hypocrite. regardless, all companies have a voice and a right to support different causes, don't be whiney if you don't agree with what they choose. Like I said, put your money where your mouth is.
And I'm fine with my purchase choices, however that's not what this thread is about, but way to keep moving goalposts to try to make yourself seem righteous.
Happy 4th.
Really. I'm sure some Apple employees must be in the NRA. When did Apple support that? I'm sure some Apple employees belong to religious organizations that oppose gay marriage (I don't, but I bet some do). When did Apple publicly offer support of those opinions? Gay pride doesn't really bother me one way or the other, but there are far more important issues Apple needs to deal with and they're not.
I think you don't like that I showed you an option whereby it IS possible to put your money where your mouth is, and you came off looking stupid when I called you on it.
Not a single fact in your predictable gibberish post, except the fact that Chinese factory workers make less money than the CEO of the biggest company on the planet. Thanks for your incredible insight and enlightenment. The rest of your post is basically unicorn dreams, ranted up by someone who obviously has never taken a serious, sober look at the subject, and doesn't have a clue in hell about the manufacturing industry, what it involves, and what is and isn't possible when it comes to Apple's competitive environment and product launch logistics and requirements. The fact that you believe the only factor holding back Apple from moving its entire manufacturing operations away from China is his personal bank account shows how childish and petulant you actually are.
Oh, and I didn't say "as a CEO".. you left out the "..of the biggest company on the planet" part. You do know that Cook also refuses all bonuses offered to him, right? And that some lower execs make more money than he does? But that's not convenient for you, so ignore, and go back to your meaningless argument of comparing his compensation to that of a Chinese worker.
Also, I love how you conveniently ignore the fact that Apple manufactures the Mac Pro in the US, when it can do so much more easily in China. If profit was the only factor, they would never have taken that on. You didn't comment on the fact that Apple has caused wages to increase- one would think you'd consider this a GOOD thing- instead, you twist it by fantasizing that Apple plans to move its operations to a cheaper country. More proof you don't give a shit about positive progress.
Oh, and how the **** does Cook's activism benefit himself? He moved up his entire life and became the CEO of Apple while basically in the closet and never mentioning his sexuality, and in his position and location he's not going to suffer the discriminations that others might. His obvious motivation is helping others less fortunate than him, which he has articulated numerous times as his motivation for coming out. But yeah, unless Cook doesn't single-handedly solve China, then he's a "hypocrite" and should shut the **** up about everything else that has to do with equality and discrimination in his own country. Another childish and petulant form of reasoning from you. It's not an "either or" concept.
Again, if you gave half a shit about China you wouldn't bring it up in this thread just to change the topic from something else entirely, you would have created another thread specifically about that topic. Your dishonesty and agenda is obvious, as if your laziness of logic, so stop pretending you care. You honestly think if Apple had another CEO, manufacturing would have moved to the US? There are some dynamics Apple cannot control, and if you had an ounce of understanding you would realize that, even in your magical fantasy world.
Why can't you just be honest and admit you only randomly bring up CHINA in order to shit on the LGBT cause in this thread? We all know you have zero interest in the topic beyond that goal, as everything you've said has been a string of random and false nonsense. What advocacy you done in your personal life in support of Chinese working conditions? What groups have you joined? Or does your outrage suddenly manifest itself only in LGBT threads on AppleInsider?
THIS is what Apple is doing-which if you had even a passing interest in the subject matter, you would read thoroughly. They have more transparency in this than any other company on the planet. But of course you don't, and you won't.
Obviously it empowers Cook, as he's gay himself. Are you that stupid?
Actually, this is the perfect thread in which to bring this issue up as it presents a perfect opportunity to exploit Apple's claims of being a progressive company and to try to call attention to that double-standard. It's not an either or concept? Of course it is, do you not remember the effect of divestment on Apartheid South Africa? Maybe that's asking too much of a person who clearly thinks pride marches in the US are more important than people being systematically tortured, murdered, worked to death etc. in China.
Yes actually, I have campaigned for workers rights in China, and for human rights causes there and other places as well. Have you ever heard of Amnesty International? Them (among several other groups I've been actively involved with for many years). I have also been in marches in support of human rights and freedom in China, my first was in June, 1989. In addition to that I buy American or any non-Chinese made products whenever I can (not always possible and not always easy) because I know damn well that money talks.
And what have YOU done for the Chinese workers and human rights there lately? Hmmm?
Is there an employee group in Apple that is for the NRA? No. Not that my sources are aware of. Is the NRA a human rights issue? No. It's just a membership club that's open to all who wish to join. Why would there even be an "NRA employee club" at apple. Maybe there could an Apple Employee Gun Club (which again, according to friends there isn't).
It's not apples job to solve the problems in the world. This show of support was for THEIR EMPLOYEE LGBT ORGANIZATION AT A PRIDE EVENT. Similar, like I said, to other employee groups participating in other events.
Also, your personal opinion that since Apple supports one small unimportant issue that isn't is somehow required to tackle every other issue equally is absurd. According to you, Apple should also fix illegal whaling. The Bokoharam kidnappings. Hey, why not the people suffering from the Greek economic collapse issue?
Apple, Tim Cook, and Apples employees can, by their constitutional right choose what they do and do not support.
You on the other hand require equal time for all issues so that is where I said you should put your money where your mouth is and practice what you preach. If you have such a hard on for violations of Chinese citizens right then I assume you personally are doing all you can to fight for them. Correct? And at the same time you should support other causes equally. Right? So we will expect to see you out there at the next pride supporting the LGBT community that still sees discrimination daily.
And I always practice what I preach. Thanks anyway.
Really. I'm sure some Apple employees must be in the NRA. When did Apple support that? I'm sure some Apple employees belong to religious organizations that oppose gay marriage (I don't, but I bet some do). When did Apple publicly offer support of those opinions? Gay pride doesn't really bother me one way or the other, but there are far more important issues Apple needs to deal with and they're not.
I think you don't like that I showed you an option whereby it IS possible to put your money where your mouth is, and you came off looking stupid when I called you on it.
Obviously it empowers Cook, as he's gay himself. Are you that stupid?
Actually, this is the perfect thread in which to bring this issue up as it presents a perfect opportunity to exploit Apple's claims of being a progressive company and to try to call attention to that double-standard. It's not an either or concept? Of course it is, do you not remember the effect of divestment on Apartheid South Africa? Maybe that's asking too much of a person who clearly thinks pride marches in the US are more important than people being systematically tortured, murdered, worked to death etc. in China.
Yes actually, I have campaigned for workers rights in China, and for human rights causes there and other places as well. Have you ever heard of Amnesty International? Them (among several other groups I've been actively involved with for many years). I have also been in marches in support of human rights and freedom in China, my first was in June, 1989. In addition to that I buy American or any non-Chinese made products whenever I can (not always possible and not always easy) because I know damn well that money talks.
And what have YOU done for the Chinese workers and human rights there lately? Hmmm?
I can see you've put a lot of work into this cause, and you're going to parasitize any progressive news that Apple generates by itself.
You can't expect to be taken seriously at all until you acknowledget a problem you are currently waving your hands in front of, hoping no one will notice. That is, the deep, far-flung throughout Asia ecosystem of electronics R&D, manufacturing, logistics and assembly.
The US has a lead in intellectual capital, as I've said before, and that is its main stock in trade, export and salvation presently. Your list of institutes, universities and patents reflects this. But the consumer electronics industry in the US shriveled to almost nothing, starting in the 1960s, while all competence here was focused on aerospace and defense, and gov't attention was being squandered on Viet Nam and southern resistance to expanded civil rights.
Meanwhile, Japan's gov't and Sony, Matsushita, etc., were setting up the electronics ecosystem of the future. Did you ever take apart a VCR? It would do wonders for your reality IQ, which is now so sadly keyboard-etiolated. Those were the most complex consumer machines ever made, and when it came time to make the tiny hard drive that ended up in the first iPod, for example, engineers could draw on an ecosystem of local experience in making fine electronic/mechanical devices like VCRs and video camcorders.
Did you ever buy an American TV, radio, VCR, video camera, cassette recorder, CD/DVD player, etc.? No you did not. Every single part of those devices came from an ecosystem of design and manufacture that has been established in Asia for half a century, implanted in all the know-how it takes to run the materials acquisition and the factories.
It's an ecosystem and old-boy network like the world has never seen, because it's a quantum leap more complex, microscopic and coordinated than, say, the auto industry was. You have as good a chance of building a new one in the US as in Kazakhstan.
You have to get real about this and take the juvenile bring-the-jobs-back-home jingoism out of the discussion. You want to do something for the Chinese assemblers and machine-shop workers? Pressure the other 15 companies that use Foxconn and the other contract shops in China to match Apple's supplier requirements.
Comments
It's true only if you're a Nero or Hitler wanna-be. But this is what it's coming to. Our society has abandoned and disregarded God. The few who still follow Him will be "taken care of" while others approve. Sound familiar???
You're right...We know who you are. We know where you are. We've sent out a team to pick you up. Pack a bag.
"David Knowles reports at Bloomberg that former Hewlett-Packard CEO and potential 2016 presidential candidate Carly Fiorina called out Apple CEO Tim Cook as a hypocrite for criticizing Indiana and Arkansas over their Religious Freedom Restoration Acts while at the same time doing business in countries where gay rights are non-existent. "When Tim Cook is upset about all the places that he does business because of the way they treat gays and women, he needs to withdraw from 90% of the markets that he's in, including China and Saudi Arabia," Fiorina said. "But I don't hear him being upset about that."
Didn't HP do business in China (and many other suspect countries) when Carly was at the helm?
Society has neither abandoned nor disregarded God. However, society does not agree on one God. We do not live in a mono-religious society, or theocracy. We never have, and that is not the way the founding fathers intended it to be.
If people are going after Christians, then they're going to go after the Muslims, Buddhists, the Wiccan, etc. Nobody's looking for or wants a religious purge. The passage of marriage equality is not the end of civilization. Marriage equality already existed in many states and in a few dozen countries around the world.
This hyperbolic paranoia or chicken little syndrome is absurd. Nobody cares what you believe in religiously. Carry on with your life.
Didn't HP do business in China (and many other suspect countries) when Carly was at the helm?
Of course they did but that isn't the point. The point is Tim Cook puts himself out there as one of the most vocal activists always commenting on issues in the US, yet no push back at all on other counties where Apple does business. If someone puts themselves on this moral soapbox then they have put themselves out there at a higher standard.
A perfect example on the other side, Donald Trump made a comment about illegal Mexicans coming into the US, he is taking a beating and loosing business. I'm a Republican and I don't feel sorry for him for one second, if he is going to open his big mouth then he has to pay the price for it. Doesn't seem to be the same standard on the other side.
Of course they did but that isn't the point. The point is Tim Cook puts himself out there as one of the most vocal activists always commenting on issues in the US, yet no push back at all on other counties where Apple does business. If someone puts themselves on this moral soapbox then they have put themselves out there at a higher standard.
A perfect example on the other side, Donald Trump made a comment about illegal Mexicans coming into the US, he is taking a beating and loosing business. I'm a Republican and I don't feel sorry for him for one second, if he is going to open his big mouth then he has to pay the price for it. Doesn't seem to be the same standard on the other side.
Didn't she try to make a point about religious freedom? Why is that different? Because she says nothing about abuses that makes her statements credible? When Mr. Cook speaks you don't think that point of view doesn't get to people in those countries? He is a US citizen.
Republican politicians have been making comments like Trumps for quite a few years now. Suddenly, because of a Presidential election, the same candidates, that have said nothing, decided to speak out. Rick Perry went against the grain in the last Presidential debate to a hail of booing from the base in the audience. What derogatory statement did Tim Cook make towards anyone?
Ignore what facts? Not only are they amply recognized in my post, but it also makes a direct point about whether those are any of Tim Cook's business or not.
Shallowness is most certainly not in short supply.
Yes you ignored facts in the post only to comment on what Carly Fiorina said. I agree shallowness is most certainly not in short supply hopefully you will work on that. Let me know when you can actually debate why this seems to be a US only issue for Tim Cook and why he can put himself on this moral high ground until it could impact his bottom line.
Even better have Tim load up a bunch of Apple employees on a 777 and fly over to one of these countries and host a demonstration on gay and human rights. Then lets see how many actually make it back alive. Want to bet you could fit them on a puddle jumper?
Example I just used, Donald Trump opens his big mouth about Mexicans, he is taking a beating as he should. However I find it interesting that very few people call out liberals when they are hypocrites. To ignore the fact that Tim Cook and Obama are up each others butts ( no pun intended) and this is a political issue no one ever calls liberals out for their hypocrisy.
I know you have this big issue about calling something liberal or conservative but no one can deny this is political. The freaking White House was lit up with rainbow lights. That is suppose to be the peoples house and neutral ground. It was a disgrace. This also has nothing to do with love, it has everything to do with federal benefits. It's 100% political and Tim Cook has inserted himself right in the middle.
Someone on the right makes a comment everyone wants them fired because they don't believe in gay marriage. Someone on the left is always on his soapbox yet is never called out for the rants to only be on safe ground.
Yes you ignored facts in the post only to comment on what Carly Fiorina said. I agree shallowness is most certainly not in short supply hopefully you will work on that. Let me know when you can actually debate why this seems to be a US only issue for Tim Cook and why he can put himself on this moral high ground until it could impact his bottom line.
Even better have Tim load up a bunch of Apple employees on a 777 and fly over to one of these countries and host a demonstration on gay and human rights. Then lets see how many actually make it back alive. Want to bet you could fit them on a puddle jumper?
Example I just used, Donald Trump opens his big mouth about Mexicans, he is taking a beating as he should. However I find it interesting that very few people call out liberals when they are hypocrites. To ignore the fact that Tim Cook and Obama are up each others butts ( no pun intended) and this is a political issue no one ever calls liberals out for their hypocrisy.
I know you have this big issue about calling something liberal or conservative but no one can deny this is political. The freaking White House was lit up with rainbow lights. That is suppose to be the peoples house and neutral ground. It was a disgrace. This also has nothing to do with love, it has everything to do with federal benefits. It's 100% political and Tim Cook has inserted himself right in the middle.
Someone on the right makes a comment everyone wants them fired because they don't believe in gay marriage. Someone on the left is always on his soapbox yet is never called out for the rants to only be on safe ground.
Hmmmm are you saying conservatives never voice their opinion about someone that they don't agree with? What are you doing now? The White House has a point of view no matter who is in office. Did the last guy that lived their have a neutral point of view or is just that a Democrat is in office that suddenly you are outraged?
I refuse to be baited by someone whose views are illiberal and now obviously dense on this issue. My signature lays it out for you to read and reflect, fwiw.
Btw, I was being polite when I referred to Fiorina as being 'shallow.'
Nope.
Your little manufactured quarrel with Tim Cook, which is the same as Fiorina's, is hilarious in its simple-mindedness.
Civic or business leaders have an obligation to speak out for justice within their home countries when the time is right for change.
They are prohibited by ages of civilized custom from sticking their noses into the moral affairs of other countries, even if they do business or conduct other affairs with the other country.
How can you possibly confuse these two very separate mandates? My guess is that you straining to find some way of opposing Apple's stand on inclusivity without getting flamed for being anti-human rights. Slurpy is probably right to call it cowardice. Regardless, you are refusing to recognize a very basic difference. So basic, I have to call it simple-minded
Nice use of false equivalence. And outright lies.
Hypocrisy? Name one Silicon Valley hardware company who has been more public and transparent about the issues facing their supply chain than Apple.
Wow, are you really that naive? Why would anyone in their right mind rely on a multinational corporation to do any more than pay lip service to these issues; doing so allows them to maintain a semblance of 'concern' back in the West while leaving intact a business model—one built on exploiting labor—from which they make even more billions of dollars profit. I've already provided one reason (labor laws/working conditions/wages) why they should bring those jobs home to the US, or to Europe, Canada, or any other place which has some respect for workers' rights. Here are some more, from an organization which is *cough* 'slightly' more credible than Apple or any other tech multinational in providing an accurate and FULLY transparent assessment of the situation in China:
"Amnesty International has documented widespread human rights violations in China. An estimated 500,000 people are currently enduring punitive detention without charge or trial, and millions are unable to access the legal system to seek redress for their grievances. Harassment, surveillance, house arrest, and imprisonment of human rights defenders are on the rise, and censorship of the Internet and other media has grown. Repression of minority groups, including Tibetans, Uighurs and Mongolians, and of Falun Gong practitioners and Christians who practice their religion outside state-sanctioned churches continues. While the recent reinstatement of Supreme People's Court review of death penalty cases may result in lower numbers of executions, China remains the leading executioner in the world."
To which I would say, how 'proud' are you of that, Mr. Cook? Where are your marches of support for those people? As your commendable activism for gay rights illustrates, talk minus action = zero.
So Apple and Tim Cook are lying, according to you. And they should "bring those jobs back" to the US, according to you. And Tom Cook should be joining or leading "marches of support" for the exploited Asian workers, according to you.
Where do you think the marches should take place? In the US? In China? Since you called Suddenly Newton naive, I think you owe us a realistic answer to the question. Where do you want these marches? And an answer to the question, where do you want the new US Asian-style consumer electronics business to be located? Details, please. Or shut up, since this is a thread about Apple's participation in their home city's—San Francisco's—Pride celebration.
Flaneur is actually trying to educate you with some important facts and perspectives, and all you can bring by way of a response is to pile on crappy, cliched shallowness upon further crappy, cliched shallowness.
'Excuses'? From whom? 'Somehow you think,' therefore it must be? What are 'R&D institutes'? Can you provide some examples? Universities? How does having the 'best universities in the world' allow you to manufacture something better, cheaper, and higher quality? Can you provide an example of whether and how universities have contributed to better, cheaper electronics manufacturing? Where did you get '700000'? Cite? Btw, how are you how going to replicate the supply chain for these 700000 people to assemble stuff? Do you have a sense of what the all-in-cost of doing something like this in the U.S. would be, compared to China? Can you share your analysis with us, instead of pulling an assertion out of your a**?
Your post is just so typical of someone who can't or does not get past business headlines. Pathetic.
(Fixed typos)
Have you not been paying any attention at all to this thread? Please, get yourself a good strong coffee or something and wake up. Excuses? From Apple, obviously. The figure of 700,000 workers was provided by your fool-in-arms Flaneur (this reply is for him and Slurpy, too) as a justification for the 'impossibility' of creating enough manufacturing/assembly jobs in the US or Europe. I illustrated how the West is more than capable of doing this—if we simply decide to do so.
R&D means 'research and development'. These are research institutes/entities (or RTDs in Europe) involved in the cutting edge scientific/technological research which make possible (among other things) the application of that research in modern society, including but by no means limited to Apple products. These entities may be attached to the state, universities, or the private sector, or combinations thereof. They are instrumental in providing the science and/or conceptual/working framework behind the development of say, an iPhone (hence why it says "Designed by Apple in California" on an iPhone box). Examples below.
You couch your request for an example in pseudo-obfuscation by insinuating that cheap labor is a major factor in scientific enquiry and technological development itself (news flash, most times it's not); or that the West somehow can't provide enough high-quality engineers to design plants and manage production processes; which is nonsense (see below). The ONLY reason those factories are in China and not somewhere much closer to home is because western multinationals would have a lower profit margin if they had to pay American, European, Japanese or Korean workers a living, legal wage in their respective country, which is why in general they avoid doing so. You seem to have trouble grasping this most basic fact. Do you seriously believe that the US/Europe are somehow incapable of matching Chinese "expertise" in science and/or the development of technology/manufacturing/manufacturing processes? Hilarious! Again, see the numbers below.
You ask, "Do you have a sense of what the all-in-cost of doing something like this in the U.S. would be, compared to China? Can you share your analysis with us, instead of pulling an assertion out of your a**?" You're asking the wrong question. The pertinent one is, Do YOU have any sense of the impact on the West of NOT doing this, not only for our manufacturing sector, but throughout the entire economy including our service and support industries? Clearly, you don't, because your head is lost somewhere the sun don't shine. Last I read, Apple has $192 billion in cash reserves. Let's look at what a fraction of that could buy. Intel's new cutting edge chip fabrication plant in Arizona cost ('only') $5 billion, and is keeping jobs in the US, where workers (at least not yet) do NOT have to work 14 hour days for $1.98 an hour. What part of that math can you not comprehend?
Examples of R&D institutes? Sure! Here's a list of the world's best, as gauged by citation and peer-reviewed journal indices. Have you actually worked in an R&D institute in China? Because based on your defeatist and simplistic replies I'd be very surprised if you'd ever had any experience of what often passes for academic/research publication there, not to mention the 'quality assurance' standards absent from so many Chinese factories (we've all read those stories or have heard a personal anecdote). Regardless, I've provided a few other facts for your sorely-needed benefit. Read 'em and weep:
ENGINEERING R&D INSTITUTES WORLD RANKING, INCLUDING COUNTRY (2014):
In order, highest rank first. American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics USA; Partners HealthCare System USA; Rice University USA; National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration USA; Laboratoire Central des Ponts et Chaussees FRA; City University of Hong Kong HKG; Harvard University USA; Swiss Federal Institute of Technology CHE; University of Pennsylvania USA; Northwestern University, Evanston USA; Massachusetts Institute of Technology USA; Utrecht University NLD; Stanford University USA; National ICT Australia AUS; Brown University USA; General Motors Company USA; Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers, USA; University of Amsterdam NLD; Columbia University USA; The Hong Kong University of Science and Technology HKG; Microsoft Corporation USA. Etc. See a pattern there? Good. The same patterns exist for Materials Science, Computer Science, Physics, Medicine, etc.
http://excellencemapping.net/index.html#/view/edition/2014/measure/top10/calculation/a_ohne_kovariable/field/engineering/significant/false
(If you can't follow the written methodological/evaluation criteria, the little blue circles on the accompanying map mean 'high quality R&D' and the little red ones 'not so high quality'. See where most of the blue, and most of the red, lie?)
NOBEL LAUREATES BY COUNTRY (to 2014) Physics, Physiology or Medicine, Chemistry, Literature, and Peace: Highest rank first. USA, 256; UK, 93; Germany, 80; France, 52; Sweden, 28; Russia, 27, Poland, 26; Japan, 21; Italy, 19; Austria, 17.
http://www.nobelprize.org
FIELDS MEDALS (the 'Mathematics Nobel', awarded once every 4 years); Highest rank first. USA, 14 (one of the recipients was born in China); France, 13; Russia, 9; UK, 6; Japan, 3.
http://www.fields.utoronto.ca/aboutus/jcfields/fields_medal.html
TOTAL PATENT COUNT, BY COUNTRY (All years to 2014): Highest rank first. USA, 2,874,103; Japan, 1,014,977; Germany, 347,875; Taiwan, 150,121; South Korea, 146,153; UK, 133, 063; France, 132,840; Canada, 116, 413; Italy, 59,058; Switzerland, 54, 294; Netherlands, 47,556; Sweden, 47,112; China, 36,440; Australia, 33,179; Israel, 32,095; Finland, 21561.
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/ac/ido/oeip/taf/cst_all.htm
WORLD UNIVERSITY RANKINGS 2015 (IN SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY FIELDS): Highest rank first. MIT, USA (including instrumentation, mechatronics, robotics and automation), Stanford; USA; Caltech, USA; Princeton, USA; University of Cambridge, UK; Imperial College London, UK; University of Oxford, UK; ETH Zurich, Switzerland; UCLA, USA; Berkely, USA.
https://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2015/subject-ranking/engineering-and-IT/#/
US employment/unemployment statistics as per my previous thread http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/empsit.pdf
All y'all have a nice day now.
So Apple and Tim Cook are lying, according to you. And they should "bring those jobs back" to the US, according to you. And Tom Cook should be joining or leading "marches of support" for the exploited Asian workers, according to you.
Where do you think the marches should take place? In the US? In China? Since you called Suddenly Newton naive, I think you owe us a realistic answer to the question. Where do you want these marches? And an answer to the question, where do you want the new US Asian-style consumer electronics business to be located? Details, please. Or shut up, since this is a thread about Apple's participation in their home city's—San Francisco's—Pride celebration.
You write that like you think it's some great challenge for me to do so.
For Americans the marches should take place in the US. And they should be very well publicized. However, the likelihood of me seeing this is virtually nil because, 1) Apple don't care enough to do that, and 2), because freedom of expression, assembly, and certainly the freedom to form a union, are not exactly encouraged in China. The repression, disappearance, jailing, and execution of those who do seek such social, political, and human rights, however, is. And those issues are FAR more important than a pride march in San Francisco.
Sounds like I got your undies in a twist. I guess you don't like it when somebody calls you on your bullshit.
Actually, as I've written, apple is supporting its employee LGBT group during pride, as it does all of its employee groups when they participate in different events. Such as the During the breast cancer run in downtown SF annually. You trying to make this something else is laughable. If you hold someone to a standard, you need to hold everyone else to the same standard including yourself or else you are a hypocrite. regardless, all companies have a voice and a right to support different causes, don't be whiney if you don't agree with what they choose. Like I said, put your money where your mouth is.
And I'm fine with my purchase choices, however that's not what this thread is about, but way to keep moving goalposts to try to make yourself seem righteous.
Happy 4th.
Really. I'm sure some Apple employees must be in the NRA. When did Apple support that? I'm sure some Apple employees belong to religious organizations that oppose gay marriage (I don't, but I bet some do). When did Apple publicly offer support of those opinions? Gay pride doesn't really bother me one way or the other, but there are far more important issues Apple needs to deal with and they're not.
I think you don't like that I showed you an option whereby it IS possible to put your money where your mouth is, and you came off looking stupid when I called you on it.
Not a single fact in your predictable gibberish post, except the fact that Chinese factory workers make less money than the CEO of the biggest company on the planet. Thanks for your incredible insight and enlightenment. The rest of your post is basically unicorn dreams, ranted up by someone who obviously has never taken a serious, sober look at the subject, and doesn't have a clue in hell about the manufacturing industry, what it involves, and what is and isn't possible when it comes to Apple's competitive environment and product launch logistics and requirements. The fact that you believe the only factor holding back Apple from moving its entire manufacturing operations away from China is his personal bank account shows how childish and petulant you actually are.
Oh, and I didn't say "as a CEO".. you left out the "..of the biggest company on the planet" part. You do know that Cook also refuses all bonuses offered to him, right? And that some lower execs make more money than he does? But that's not convenient for you, so ignore, and go back to your meaningless argument of comparing his compensation to that of a Chinese worker.
Also, I love how you conveniently ignore the fact that Apple manufactures the Mac Pro in the US, when it can do so much more easily in China. If profit was the only factor, they would never have taken that on. You didn't comment on the fact that Apple has caused wages to increase- one would think you'd consider this a GOOD thing- instead, you twist it by fantasizing that Apple plans to move its operations to a cheaper country. More proof you don't give a shit about positive progress.
Oh, and how the **** does Cook's activism benefit himself? He moved up his entire life and became the CEO of Apple while basically in the closet and never mentioning his sexuality, and in his position and location he's not going to suffer the discriminations that others might. His obvious motivation is helping others less fortunate than him, which he has articulated numerous times as his motivation for coming out. But yeah, unless Cook doesn't single-handedly solve China, then he's a "hypocrite" and should shut the **** up about everything else that has to do with equality and discrimination in his own country. Another childish and petulant form of reasoning from you. It's not an "either or" concept.
Again, if you gave half a shit about China you wouldn't bring it up in this thread just to change the topic from something else entirely, you would have created another thread specifically about that topic. Your dishonesty and agenda is obvious, as if your laziness of logic, so stop pretending you care. You honestly think if Apple had another CEO, manufacturing would have moved to the US? There are some dynamics Apple cannot control, and if you had an ounce of understanding you would realize that, even in your magical fantasy world.
Why can't you just be honest and admit you only randomly bring up CHINA in order to shit on the LGBT cause in this thread? We all know you have zero interest in the topic beyond that goal, as everything you've said has been a string of random and false nonsense. What advocacy you done in your personal life in support of Chinese working conditions? What groups have you joined? Or does your outrage suddenly manifest itself only in LGBT threads on AppleInsider?
THIS is what Apple is doing-which if you had even a passing interest in the subject matter, you would read thoroughly. They have more transparency in this than any other company on the planet. But of course you don't, and you won't.
Obviously it empowers Cook, as he's gay himself. Are you that stupid?
Actually, this is the perfect thread in which to bring this issue up as it presents a perfect opportunity to exploit Apple's claims of being a progressive company and to try to call attention to that double-standard. It's not an either or concept? Of course it is, do you not remember the effect of divestment on Apartheid South Africa? Maybe that's asking too much of a person who clearly thinks pride marches in the US are more important than people being systematically tortured, murdered, worked to death etc. in China.
Yes actually, I have campaigned for workers rights in China, and for human rights causes there and other places as well. Have you ever heard of Amnesty International? Them (among several other groups I've been actively involved with for many years). I have also been in marches in support of human rights and freedom in China, my first was in June, 1989. In addition to that I buy American or any non-Chinese made products whenever I can (not always possible and not always easy) because I know damn well that money talks.
And what have YOU done for the Chinese workers and human rights there lately? Hmmm?
It's not apples job to solve the problems in the world. This show of support was for THEIR EMPLOYEE LGBT ORGANIZATION AT A PRIDE EVENT. Similar, like I said, to other employee groups participating in other events.
Also, your personal opinion that since Apple supports one small unimportant issue that isn't is somehow required to tackle every other issue equally is absurd. According to you, Apple should also fix illegal whaling. The Bokoharam kidnappings. Hey, why not the people suffering from the Greek economic collapse issue?
Apple, Tim Cook, and Apples employees can, by their constitutional right choose what they do and do not support.
You on the other hand require equal time for all issues so that is where I said you should put your money where your mouth is and practice what you preach. If you have such a hard on for violations of Chinese citizens right then I assume you personally are doing all you can to fight for them. Correct? And at the same time you should support other causes equally. Right? So we will expect to see you out there at the next pride supporting the LGBT community that still sees discrimination daily.
And I always practice what I preach. Thanks anyway.
I can see you've put a lot of work into this cause, and you're going to parasitize any progressive news that Apple generates by itself.
You can't expect to be taken seriously at all until you acknowledget a problem you are currently waving your hands in front of, hoping no one will notice. That is, the deep, far-flung throughout Asia ecosystem of electronics R&D, manufacturing, logistics and assembly.
The US has a lead in intellectual capital, as I've said before, and that is its main stock in trade, export and salvation presently. Your list of institutes, universities and patents reflects this. But the consumer electronics industry in the US shriveled to almost nothing, starting in the 1960s, while all competence here was focused on aerospace and defense, and gov't attention was being squandered on Viet Nam and southern resistance to expanded civil rights.
Meanwhile, Japan's gov't and Sony, Matsushita, etc., were setting up the electronics ecosystem of the future. Did you ever take apart a VCR? It would do wonders for your reality IQ, which is now so sadly keyboard-etiolated. Those were the most complex consumer machines ever made, and when it came time to make the tiny hard drive that ended up in the first iPod, for example, engineers could draw on an ecosystem of local experience in making fine electronic/mechanical devices like VCRs and video camcorders.
Did you ever buy an American TV, radio, VCR, video camera, cassette recorder, CD/DVD player, etc.? No you did not. Every single part of those devices came from an ecosystem of design and manufacture that has been established in Asia for half a century, implanted in all the know-how it takes to run the materials acquisition and the factories.
It's an ecosystem and old-boy network like the world has never seen, because it's a quantum leap more complex, microscopic and coordinated than, say, the auto industry was. You have as good a chance of building a new one in the US as in Kazakhstan.
You have to get real about this and take the juvenile bring-the-jobs-back-home jingoism out of the discussion. You want to do something for the Chinese assemblers and machine-shop workers? Pressure the other 15 companies that use Foxconn and the other contract shops in China to match Apple's supplier requirements.