I have an old in-smart phone that is 5 years old. ATT no longer allows it to connect, and soon all carriers will retire non-modern phones. Requiring a fully patched system to access network resources is not unreasonable. And there are services that used to work with an IOS 4 that don't any more. Even though they did when I bought the phone.
AT&T not allowing it to connect to their network is different, much different, than Apple going in and disabling cell or internet (WiFi) capability on old phones. No one is claiming AT&T doesn't have the right to disallow dangerous devices. (Though I wonder how they actually detect and do it).
If you're running 8.3 (like my wife is), it's working just fine today. No bricking the phone, no jackbooted thugs on our doorstep with a lightning connector and an 8.4 upgrade dongle. Your argument is a red herring.
and no one at Apple is forcing you to upgrade to 8.3... you just can't go from where you're at to 8.3 anymore. Apple supports 8.3, in the sense you can walk in and ask for support at a genius bar. they just don't distribute it anymore.
His argument is not a red herring. It IS the argument. No one claimed Apple is doing this now. The discussion is about someone's suggestion that Apple SHOULD do this. It might be helpful to know what the discussion is about before answering.
Heavy battery drain and the removal of Home Sharing music on your own devices on your own network is more than enough reason to downgrade back to 8.3. So your comment has no validity to it. If something worked before and suddenly breaks with new software, most people downgrade. Apple now finally admits to their mistake and they are restoring the music Home Sharing back with iOS 9, but now people have to wait months for that? No thanks. My iPhone 6 Plus and iPad Air work better with 8.3.
There's no validity there whatsoever. Your device needed the work Apple put into 8.4.
As I said, and is still true, users are the absolute last people in the world who are qualified to make decisions on what set of code should be running on their device.
And any of you comparing downgrading an OS to personal freedom are borderline psycopaths. Grow up. You don't write the code. You don't even know what you have. You have no qualification whatsoever to make a decision on what version of an OS you should be running. Zero.
What's been buggy for you? I haven't noticed anything yet.
Data speeds, reception, battery life, and the phone app occasionally won't make a call. Tap on a name to call, and it pops up with the calling screen, then immediately goes to call ended and back to the contacts screen. The only fix for the phone app is a reboot. That would be fantastic in an emergency situation... s/ I've tried a soft reset, and that didn't help anything... at all. With well over 30 GB of stuff on my iPhone, I'm not in a big hurry to do a full restore.
There's no validity there whatsoever. Your device needed the work Apple put into 8.4.
As I said, and is still true, users are the absolute last people in the world who are qualified to make decisions on what set of code should be running on their device.
And any of you comparing downgrading an OS to personal freedom are borderline psycopaths. Grow up. You don't write the code. You don't even know what you have. You have no qualification whatsoever to make a decision on what version of an OS you should be running. Zero.
You should know I showed this thread to some experts and they all came away with the conclusion AI was an insane website. Just FYI.
I have an old in-smart phone that is 5 years old. ATT no longer allows it to connect, and soon all carriers will retire non-modern phones. Requiring a fully patched system to access network resources is not unreasonable. And there are services that used to work with an IOS 4 that don't any more. Even though they did when I bought the phone.
AT&T not allowing it to connect to their network is different, much different, than Apple going in and disabling cell or internet (WiFi) capability on old phones. No one is claiming AT&T doesn't have the right to disallow dangerous devices. (Though I wonder how they actually detect and do it).
It's probably an old analog phone, or requires a type of superseded digital connection.
What's been buggy for you? I haven't noticed anything yet.
Data speeds, reception, battery life, and the phone app occasionally won't make a call. Tap on a name to call, and it pops up with the calling screen, then immediately goes to call ended and back to the contacts screen. The only fix for the phone app is a reboot. That would be fantastic in an emergency situation... s/ I've tried a soft reset, and that didn't help anything... at all. With well over 30 GB of stuff on my iPhone, I'm not in a big hurry to do a full restore.
There's no validity there whatsoever. Your device needed the work Apple put into 8.4.
As I said, and is still true, users are the absolute last people in the world who are qualified to make decisions on what set of code should be running on their device.
And any of you comparing downgrading an OS to personal freedom are borderline psycopaths. Grow up. You don't write the code. You don't even know what you have. You have no qualification whatsoever to make a decision on what version of an OS you should be running. Zero.
Ha ha ha ha
LOL
What planet are you from?
I know what you are trying to say, but unless there is some super terrific super deadly everyone is going to die bug, then you are wrong. I know best what version my phone needs because I know what my needs are, and what I am willing to trade off to get my needs met. Apple or anyone else does not know that.
There's no validity there whatsoever. Your device needed the work Apple put into 8.4.
As I said, and is still true, users are the absolute last people in the world who are qualified to make decisions on what set of code should be running on their device.
And any of you comparing downgrading an OS to personal freedom are borderline psycopaths. Grow up. You don't write the code. You don't even know what you have. You have no qualification whatsoever to make a decision on what version of an OS you should be running. Zero.
There's no validity there whatsoever. Your device needed the work Apple put into 8.4.
As I said, and is still true, users are the absolute last people in the world who are qualified to make decisions on what set of code should be running on their device.
And any of you comparing downgrading an OS to personal freedom are borderline psycopaths. Grow up. You don't write the code. You don't even know what you have. You have no qualification whatsoever to make a decision on what version of an OS you should be running. Zero.
I don't need to be "qualified" to decide what software runs on my device, I just need to be the owner. Enough with the techno-fascism.
I know what you are trying to say, but unless there is some super terrific super deadly everyone is going to die bug, then you are wrong. I know best what version my phone needs because I know what my needs are, and what I am willing to trade off to get my needs met. Apple or anyone else does not know that.
No I'm sorry but you don't. You know absolutely nothing but the very top level (if that) of what's different between 1 version of an OS and another.
Why don't people complain more when web applications are updated automatically without your consent? Oh because you have absolutely no control over that. You think because you've been allowed to maintain some small level of control over what updates and when on your phone that it translates to you having a right to do so.
This is just a delusional rabbit hole that so many people have wrongly fallen into.
IF YOU USE APPLE OS, THEN YOU MAINTAIN NO RIGHT TO WHAT SET OF CODE ITS RUNNING AT ANY GIVEN TIME.
As someone else said, you own your PHONE, which means you can hack it and install Android or Windows or Whosit at your own risk, and be subject to their own EULAs.
And as I've said, I feel that Apple should stop easing in to it and just go full force with mandatory automatic updates. There isn't any reason not to. They write the code, they know what's best. Not you. Not stupid idiots bloggers who think they need to run 7.1.2 because 'that was the best one'. Seriously? At least admit that you know absolutely nothing about anything, and that you choose to make OS decisions based on nothing but BS that you read on blogs and your own poor sense of who knows best.
<div class="quote-container" data-huddler-embed="/t/187100/apple-stops-signing-ios-8-3-just-one-week-after-8-4-release/80#post_2745537" data-huddler-embed-placeholder="false"><span>Quote:</span><div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Crowley</strong> <a href="/t/187100/apple-stops-signing-ios-8-3-just-one-week-after-8-4-release/80#post_2745537"><img src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" class="inlineimg" alt="View Post"/></a><br/><br/><br />
I don't need to be "qualified" to decide what software runs on my device, I just need to be the owner. Enough with the techno-fascism.</div></div><p> </p>
Yes indeed you DO need to be qualified. If you make that decision on your own, based on nothing, its a poor decision, with no merit whatsoever.
There are several different arguments here:
1) Do users ever know whats best in terms of what version of iOS should be on their iPhone? A: Absolutely positively not.
2) Is it your right as a user to choose what OS runs on the phone you own? A: Yes, you are free hack and **** up your phone all you like.
3) Is it your right as a user to choose what public version of iOS to run on your non-jailbroken iPhone? A: Absolutely positively not.
#3 is absolutely incorrect. My sister is currently running iOS 6 on both her iPhone 5 and iPad 2. Both those devices are capable of running iOS 7.
I know what you are trying to say, but unless there is some super terrific super deadly everyone is going to die bug, then you are wrong. I know best what version my phone needs because I know what my needs are, and what I am willing to trade off to get my needs met. Apple or anyone else does not know that.
No I'm sorry but you don't. You know absolutely nothing but the very top level (if that) of what's different between 1 version of an OS and another.
Why don't people complain more when web applications are updated automatically without your consent? Oh because you have absolutely no control over that. You think because you've been allowed to maintain some small level of control over what updates and when on your phone that it translates to you having a right to do so.
This is just a delusional rabbit hole that so many people have wrongly fallen into.
IF YOU USE APPLE OS, THEN YOU MAINTAIN NO RIGHT TO WHAT SET OF CODE ITS RUNNING AT ANY GIVEN TIME.
As someone else said, you own your PHONE, which means you can hack it and install Android or Windows or Whosit at your own risk, and be subject to their own EULAs.
And as I've said, I feel that Apple should stop easing in to it and just go full force with mandatory automatic updates. There isn't any reason not to. They write the code, they know what's best. Not you. Not stupid idiots bloggers who think they need to run 7.1.2 because 'that was the best one'. Seriously? At least admit that you know absolutely nothing about anything, and that you choose to make OS decisions based on nothing but BS that you read on blogs and your own poor sense of who knows best.
Sorry, but you are wrong. IF I USE AN APPLE OS I MAINTAIN THE RIGHT TO DETERMINE WHICH APPLE OS I AM RUNNING.
I don't need to know the lowest internal details to be able to perfectly decide. If Apple has a bug fix for a world-ending bug they can say so and that will influence my decision. But iOS 8.x won't stop working the day after iOS 8.x+1 is released, and if it met my needs on D-1, then on D-Day it will still meet my needs while I evaluate the trade offs of upgrading now or later. Only I can make that decision as only I know what my needs are and what I am willing to trade off to make those needs.
And no, Apple does NOT have the right to force upgrade. There would be a lawsuit faster than you can say "iOS" if they started doing that with no opt-out. And they would lose, I am betting.
And your web app example is asinine. I don't own or control the servers they are running on. I do own and control my phone.
I don't need to be "qualified" to decide what software runs on my device, I just need to be the owner. Enough with the techno-fascism.
Yes indeed you DO need to be qualified. If you make that decision on your own, based on nothing, its a poor decision, with no merit whatsoever.
There are several different arguments here:
1) Do users ever know whats best in terms of what version of iOS should be on their iPhone? A: Absolutely positively not.
2) Is it your right as a user to choose what OS runs on the phone you own? A: Yes, you are free hack and **** up your phone all you like.
3) Is it your right as a user to choose what public version of iOS to run on your non-jailbroken iPhone? A: Absolutely positively not.
No you don't. That is absurd. You need to know if the update meets your needs or not, and if there are world-ending bug fixes in the update. That is all you need.
#1) Yes they do. What meets their needs best. If you were extensively using home-sharing than 8.3 meets your needs better than 8.4. You don't need to know the internal details. I am an iOS software dev and have a clue about things. I have been a software engineer for 27 years. I have a small clue about software. If there are earth shattering bugs that are fixed, then you should know that so you can be aware of what sort of decision you are making. But if you have vital software you need to run regularly (for your business, or whatever reason) and the new version breaks that, you need to be able to make the decision not to upgrade.
#2) You have the right to determine what you run on the phone. If it goes against Apples recommendations or requirements they don't have to support you. But it is your choice.
#3) This is a straw-man. If Apple withdraws signing on a certain OS version, then no, you don't have the capability, in most cases, to install that version. So you would technically be correct. However, you do have the right to determine which version of iOS (which was publicly available when you put it on the phone in the first place, even if that status later changes) you run. Apple cannot force upgrade without your consent.
IF I USE AN APPLE OS I MAINTAIN THE RIGHT TO DETERMINE WHICH APPLE OS I AM RUNNING.
Is that a constitutional right?
And are you so sure Apple does not have the "right" to force an upgrade?
No one is arguing with you that it wouldn't be good if the did that, but I think you are on shaky ground throwing around these "rights" that individuals and companies do and do not have without any evidence or argument.
edit: I feel like your posts need a [citation needed] on most of the points. Now, I admit to not having any solid information either (what a great debate!) but my Apple TV adds and removes channels all the time without my consent and no one has issued a class-action lawsuit against them yet.
And are you so sure Apple does not have the "right" to force an upgrade?
No one is arguing with you that it wouldn't be good if the did that, but I think you are on shaky ground throwing around these "rights" that individuals and companies do and do not have without any evidence or argument.
I paid for the phone. It is mine. I have the right to my property. I am not aware of any "easement" or anything that exists that would change the situation.
So-called "shrink wrap" EULAs have been determined to not be enforceable in court -- the kind where you have to buy it to know what it says, AFAIK. There is a section of law called the "Universal Commercial Code" or UCC for short. Most states in the US have adopted it in some form. This outlines the rights of the consumer. I urge you to become familiar with it. My memory is hazy on specifics but at one time I learned a lot about it as I had to sue Compaq in small claims court because of a computer that did not do what they said it did. SO I learned all about the UCC. Anyway, it has stuff in there about disclosure of terms, capabilities, etc. and that stuff you buy has to function the way they said it would. If they don't disclose up front that they auto force update the OS and you agree to that before you buy it, then they kind of can't do it. They can't bury it in some click-through agreement that is presented after you have bought the item.
So what about the cheap user which just wants it to use for email, has a small data package, (1GB) or less and does not have wi-fi ? No apps on phone. If a forced push of a ios update on said phone caused the data plan to go over the limit you will see many people file a class action.
In order for the update to be installed, Once must agree to the terms. If you don't agree then it can't be installed.
Comments
I have an old in-smart phone that is 5 years old. ATT no longer allows it to connect, and soon all carriers will retire non-modern phones. Requiring a fully patched system to access network resources is not unreasonable. And there are services that used to work with an IOS 4 that don't any more. Even though they did when I bought the phone.
AT&T not allowing it to connect to their network is different, much different, than Apple going in and disabling cell or internet (WiFi) capability on old phones. No one is claiming AT&T doesn't have the right to disallow dangerous devices. (Though I wonder how they actually detect and do it).
Correct. Downloaded, but not installed.
It's more of this faux outrage from Android users who pretend to know what they're talking about.
Some one was obviously not reading the thread and is commenting on a faux argument.
If you're running 8.3 (like my wife is), it's working just fine today. No bricking the phone, no jackbooted thugs on our doorstep with a lightning connector and an 8.4 upgrade dongle. Your argument is a red herring.
and no one at Apple is forcing you to upgrade to 8.3... you just can't go from where you're at to 8.3 anymore. Apple supports 8.3, in the sense you can walk in and ask for support at a genius bar. they just don't distribute it anymore.
His argument is not a red herring. It IS the argument. No one claimed Apple is doing this now. The discussion is about someone's suggestion that Apple SHOULD do this. It might be helpful to know what the discussion is about before answering.
There's no validity there whatsoever. Your device needed the work Apple put into 8.4.
As I said, and is still true, users are the absolute last people in the world who are qualified to make decisions on what set of code should be running on their device.
And any of you comparing downgrading an OS to personal freedom are borderline psycopaths. Grow up. You don't write the code. You don't even know what you have. You have no qualification whatsoever to make a decision on what version of an OS you should be running. Zero.
What's been buggy for you? I haven't noticed anything yet.
Data speeds, reception, battery life, and the phone app occasionally won't make a call. Tap on a name to call, and it pops up with the calling screen, then immediately goes to call ended and back to the contacts screen. The only fix for the phone app is a reboot. That would be fantastic in an emergency situation... s/ I've tried a soft reset, and that didn't help anything... at all. With well over 30 GB of stuff on my iPhone, I'm not in a big hurry to do a full restore.
You should know I showed this thread to some experts and they all came away with the conclusion AI was an insane website. Just FYI.
It's probably an old analog phone, or requires a type of superseded digital connection.
Quit ignoring the low memory warnings...
There's no validity there whatsoever. Your device needed the work Apple put into 8.4.
As I said, and is still true, users are the absolute last people in the world who are qualified to make decisions on what set of code should be running on their device.
And any of you comparing downgrading an OS to personal freedom are borderline psycopaths. Grow up. You don't write the code. You don't even know what you have. You have no qualification whatsoever to make a decision on what version of an OS you should be running. Zero.
Ha ha ha ha
LOL
What planet are you from?
I know what you are trying to say, but unless there is some super terrific super deadly everyone is going to die bug, then you are wrong. I know best what version my phone needs because I know what my needs are, and what I am willing to trade off to get my needs met. Apple or anyone else does not know that.
There's no validity there whatsoever. Your device needed the work Apple put into 8.4.
As I said, and is still true, users are the absolute last people in the world who are qualified to make decisions on what set of code should be running on their device.
And any of you comparing downgrading an OS to personal freedom are borderline psycopaths. Grow up. You don't write the code. You don't even know what you have. You have no qualification whatsoever to make a decision on what version of an OS you should be running. Zero.
What a load of pompous drivel.
Ha ha ha ha
LOL
What planet are you from?
I know what you are trying to say, but unless there is some super terrific super deadly everyone is going to die bug, then you are wrong. I know best what version my phone needs because I know what my needs are, and what I am willing to trade off to get my needs met. Apple or anyone else does not know that.
No I'm sorry but you don't. You know absolutely nothing but the very top level (if that) of what's different between 1 version of an OS and another.Why don't people complain more when web applications are updated automatically without your consent? Oh because you have absolutely no control over that. You think because you've been allowed to maintain some small level of control over what updates and when on your phone that it translates to you having a right to do so.
This is just a delusional rabbit hole that so many people have wrongly fallen into.
IF YOU USE APPLE OS, THEN YOU MAINTAIN NO RIGHT TO WHAT SET OF CODE ITS RUNNING AT ANY GIVEN TIME.
As someone else said, you own your PHONE, which means you can hack it and install Android or Windows or Whosit at your own risk, and be subject to their own EULAs.
And as I've said, I feel that Apple should stop easing in to it and just go full force with mandatory automatic updates. There isn't any reason not to. They write the code, they know what's best. Not you. Not stupid idiots bloggers who think they need to run 7.1.2 because 'that was the best one'. Seriously? At least admit that you know absolutely nothing about anything, and that you choose to make OS decisions based on nothing but BS that you read on blogs and your own poor sense of who knows best.
I don't need to be "qualified" to decide what software runs on my device, I just need to be the owner. Enough with the techno-fascism.
Yes indeed you DO need to be qualified. If you make that decision on your own, based on nothing, its a poor decision, with no merit whatsoever.There are several different arguments here:
1) Do users ever know whats best in terms of what version of iOS should be on their iPhone? A: Absolutely positively not.
2) Is it your right as a user to choose what OS runs on the phone you own? A: Yes, you are free hack and **** up your phone all you like.
3) Is it your right as a user to choose what [I]public version of iOS[/I] to run on your non-jailbroken iPhone? A: Absolutely positively not.
#3 is absolutely incorrect. My sister is currently running iOS 6 on both her iPhone 5 and iPad 2. Both those devices are capable of running iOS 7.
Ha ha ha ha
LOL
What planet are you from?
I know what you are trying to say, but unless there is some super terrific super deadly everyone is going to die bug, then you are wrong. I know best what version my phone needs because I know what my needs are, and what I am willing to trade off to get my needs met. Apple or anyone else does not know that.
No I'm sorry but you don't. You know absolutely nothing but the very top level (if that) of what's different between 1 version of an OS and another.
Why don't people complain more when web applications are updated automatically without your consent? Oh because you have absolutely no control over that. You think because you've been allowed to maintain some small level of control over what updates and when on your phone that it translates to you having a right to do so.
This is just a delusional rabbit hole that so many people have wrongly fallen into.
IF YOU USE APPLE OS, THEN YOU MAINTAIN NO RIGHT TO WHAT SET OF CODE ITS RUNNING AT ANY GIVEN TIME.
As someone else said, you own your PHONE, which means you can hack it and install Android or Windows or Whosit at your own risk, and be subject to their own EULAs.
And as I've said, I feel that Apple should stop easing in to it and just go full force with mandatory automatic updates. There isn't any reason not to. They write the code, they know what's best. Not you. Not stupid idiots bloggers who think they need to run 7.1.2 because 'that was the best one'. Seriously? At least admit that you know absolutely nothing about anything, and that you choose to make OS decisions based on nothing but BS that you read on blogs and your own poor sense of who knows best.
Sorry, but you are wrong. IF I USE AN APPLE OS I MAINTAIN THE RIGHT TO DETERMINE WHICH APPLE OS I AM RUNNING.
I don't need to know the lowest internal details to be able to perfectly decide. If Apple has a bug fix for a world-ending bug they can say so and that will influence my decision. But iOS 8.x won't stop working the day after iOS 8.x+1 is released, and if it met my needs on D-1, then on D-Day it will still meet my needs while I evaluate the trade offs of upgrading now or later. Only I can make that decision as only I know what my needs are and what I am willing to trade off to make those needs.
And no, Apple does NOT have the right to force upgrade. There would be a lawsuit faster than you can say "iOS" if they started doing that with no opt-out. And they would lose, I am betting.
And your web app example is asinine. I don't own or control the servers they are running on. I do own and control my phone.
I don't need to be "qualified" to decide what software runs on my device, I just need to be the owner. Enough with the techno-fascism.
Yes indeed you DO need to be qualified. If you make that decision on your own, based on nothing, its a poor decision, with no merit whatsoever.
There are several different arguments here:
1) Do users ever know whats best in terms of what version of iOS should be on their iPhone? A: Absolutely positively not.
2) Is it your right as a user to choose what OS runs on the phone you own? A: Yes, you are free hack and **** up your phone all you like.
3) Is it your right as a user to choose what public version of iOS to run on your non-jailbroken iPhone? A: Absolutely positively not.
No you don't. That is absurd. You need to know if the update meets your needs or not, and if there are world-ending bug fixes in the update. That is all you need.
#1) Yes they do. What meets their needs best. If you were extensively using home-sharing than 8.3 meets your needs better than 8.4. You don't need to know the internal details. I am an iOS software dev and have a clue about things. I have been a software engineer for 27 years. I have a small clue about software. If there are earth shattering bugs that are fixed, then you should know that so you can be aware of what sort of decision you are making. But if you have vital software you need to run regularly (for your business, or whatever reason) and the new version breaks that, you need to be able to make the decision not to upgrade.
#2) You have the right to determine what you run on the phone. If it goes against Apples recommendations or requirements they don't have to support you. But it is your choice.
#3) This is a straw-man. If Apple withdraws signing on a certain OS version, then no, you don't have the capability, in most cases, to install that version. So you would technically be correct. However, you do have the right to determine which version of iOS (which was publicly available when you put it on the phone in the first place, even if that status later changes) you run. Apple cannot force upgrade without your consent.
IF I USE AN APPLE OS I MAINTAIN THE RIGHT TO DETERMINE WHICH APPLE OS I AM RUNNING.
Is that a constitutional right?
And are you so sure Apple does not have the "right" to force an upgrade?
No one is arguing with you that it wouldn't be good if the did that, but I think you are on shaky ground throwing around these "rights" that individuals and companies do and do not have without any evidence or argument.
edit: I feel like your posts need a [citation needed] on most of the points. Now, I admit to not having any solid information either (what a great debate!) but my Apple TV adds and removes channels all the time without my consent and no one has issued a class-action lawsuit against them yet.
Is that a constitutional right?
And are you so sure Apple does not have the "right" to force an upgrade?
No one is arguing with you that it wouldn't be good if the did that, but I think you are on shaky ground throwing around these "rights" that individuals and companies do and do not have without any evidence or argument.
I paid for the phone. It is mine. I have the right to my property. I am not aware of any "easement" or anything that exists that would change the situation.
So-called "shrink wrap" EULAs have been determined to not be enforceable in court -- the kind where you have to buy it to know what it says, AFAIK. There is a section of law called the "Universal Commercial Code" or UCC for short. Most states in the US have adopted it in some form. This outlines the rights of the consumer. I urge you to become familiar with it. My memory is hazy on specifics but at one time I learned a lot about it as I had to sue Compaq in small claims court because of a computer that did not do what they said it did. SO I learned all about the UCC. Anyway, it has stuff in there about disclosure of terms, capabilities, etc. and that stuff you buy has to function the way they said it would. If they don't disclose up front that they auto force update the OS and you agree to that before you buy it, then they kind of can't do it. They can't bury it in some click-through agreement that is presented after you have bought the item.
IANALAIDPOOTV
So what about the cheap user which just wants it to use for email, has a small data package, (1GB) or less and does not have wi-fi ? No apps on phone. If a forced push of a ios update on said phone caused the data plan to go over the limit you will see many people file a class action.
In order for the update to be installed, Once must agree to the terms. If you don't agree then it can't be installed.
This will never happen.