Apple, Samsung & carriers working together on 'e-SIM' standard for mobile data plans

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 35
    ksecksec Posts: 1,569member

    This has been available for a long time in the M2M market. And they have finally decide to adopt it in consumer space.

    With Internet of things coming, they are finally forced to do it. You dont want to install a sim card on a car, your Laptop, or any other potential 4G / 5G devices.

     

    And if you are wondering what benefits it brings, one less slot, less internal space wasted, easier water proof,

     

    One thing i hope is that Apple will force Apple Sim this year in the 6s, testing potential of e-Sim before it becomes a software only solution.

  • Reply 22 of 35
    philboogiephilboogie Posts: 7,675member
    The sooner SIM cards die the better. Fiddling with a piece of plastic at the airport is no fun. Just embed the darn thing and have the user 'do it all' in software. While the fear of carrier lock in is a valid concern, I don't think it will make the current situation worse.

    Over here in The Netherlands the larger telcos don't even bother locking your phone. And those who still do; they are required by law to remove the lock after one year. Yes, also for those who have signed up for a two year contract.

    Thanks to Nellie Smit Kroes the roaming charges are cheap in Europe, I do it all the time and it doesn't cost an arm and/or leg anymore.
  • Reply 23 of 35
    ecatsecats Posts: 272member
    Isn't this the exact thing which the carriers were vehemently against, promising apple that they'd never take on the iphone if they persued a soft-sim.
  • Reply 24 of 35
    krawallkrawall Posts: 162member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Anome View Post







    Unlocked phones are increasingly the standard here in Australia. After all, it doesn't really matter if your phone sim-locked to a carrier or not if you still have to pay out your contract and/or handset payments if you want to change carriers. Even if it is locked, most carriers will unlock it for free, and you can do it from the web. (Especially since the unlock for an iPhone has to ultimately come from Apple via their update system.) I expect switching to a local carrier will work similarly. (I use a traveller SIM service, which is cheaper than roaming, but still a bit pricy, and as a result when my passport was stolen in Paris, I lost my home SIMs, which was annoying - although not as stressful as losing my passport.)

    Apple would like to, hence their work on eSIMs and the Apple SIM, but the carriers still insist on using SIM cards for their networks. What will get the carriers to change will be when someone presents to them a finished solution that will save them money, and requires little or no work on their part.

     

    I know your answer was in response to questions.

     

    No, there won't be a need to "program your phone" and "reprogram your phone". There will be a setting for "SIM Accounts", or something like virtual SIM cards.

     

    It was shown a while ago and works like you can browse a number of carriers (participating and reachable) and you can strike a deal with them straight from your phone. When you left that country, you just activate your other "SIM-Account" or "virtual SIM card" in the settings and deal done.

     

    Of course I don't know how they call it. Perhaps just "cellular accounts" or something like that.

  • Reply 25 of 35
    ajmasajmas Posts: 597member
    I hope the experience is not the same as CDMA and that I don't need to call a number to have it changed. I want it to be easy to switch SIM cards when travelling, even in a country where don't speak the local language.

    Whatever solution they go with should not require some central entity, should be hard to replicate and should be easy to do with an authorised store. It should also allow me to have multiple e-SIMs.

    Like others I'll hold judgement, but they better not regress in terms of the benefits of SIM cards.
  • Reply 26 of 35
    misamisa Posts: 827member
    mstone wrote: »

    I imagine you will just stop by a phone store in the host country and they will reprogram your phone. When you return you can do the same thing with your home carrier, although it is likely you would be able to reprogram your own phone at home by yourself without going to the carrier store.

    The main issue is carrier lock. That will likely be something that will remain built in, although currently on Verizon phones the sim slot, I've heard, is unlocked.

    That is NOT how sim cards work. There is nothing to program. They are microprocessors, not a piece of NAND memory. Apple's existing SIM is just a "boot" loader to whatever carrier is setup. Once it's setup, it's not something that can be changed on the carrier itself setup a way to replace it.

    Like I do not like the idea of eSIM's, because this returns us to the 1990's AMPS/TDMA/CDMA era devices being locked to carriers once it's activated, and "zapping" the eSIM's when the devices are lost or stolen, rendering the device unusable even if recovered.

    Now if Apple wants to present the eSIM as a security mechanism, where the chip can't be "looped" by a carrier using their lost-stolen procedure, rather the IMSI gets blacklisted, and Apple itself acts as a MVNO, fine, I'm up for that. But if we're going to continue to let the carriers to do business as usual, then no. I'd rather the SIM be removed so I can switch it every time I cross an international border.

    My existing iPad, I switch between T-Mobile in the US and Rogers in Canada, because Rogers charges highway-robbery rates for data use.
  • Reply 27 of 35
    philboogiephilboogie Posts: 7,675member
    misa wrote: »
    But if we're going to continue to let the carriers to do business as usual, then no. I'd rather the SIM be removed so I can switch it every time I cross an international border.

    SIM cards are going away, and for good reason. There really isn't any reason a piece of HW meeds to be replaced just because we want a different carrier. This can be done in software, and Apple is the only company to pioneer this. Just look at the floppy & CD.

    The number one reason Apple wants to remove the SIM slot is because it accumulates dirt and at some point cannot be opened anymore. Ask any Genius at the Bar.
  • Reply 28 of 35
    technarchytechnarchy Posts: 296member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Relic View Post





    It is, but I honestly don't trust these companies individually, when their in a pack it's even more scary.



    Somehow I don't see Verizon and AT&T doing anything that is good for customer choice. Right now I can pop out my SIM and put it in any iPhone I want and AT&T has no power to stop me. Will that still be the case with this e-SIM?

  • Reply 29 of 35
    blah64blah64 Posts: 993member
    relic wrote: »
    It is, but I honestly don't trust these companies individually, when their in a pack it's even more scary.

    technarchy wrote: »

    Somehow I don't see Verizon and AT&T doing anything that is good for customer choice. Right now I can pop out my SIM and put it in any iPhone I want and AT&T has no power to stop me. Will that still be the case with this e-SIM?

    I totally agree. This new system sounds like it revolves around trust. When you get to physically decide which SIM/company you want to use, then you know without a doubt what's happening. You don't need anyone else to do it at a store, you don't need to remember codes, you don't need to "trust" things under the covers. When something as important as this is now dependent on software, it's a different story. I don't necessarily mistrust Apple's intent on this effort, but it does mean that this will be far more vulnerable to malware, misuse, screw-ups, other kinds of carrier locks, etc.

    Perhaps even more importantly, what happens when someone doesn't way any SIM/data plan? Think hand-me-downs to kids, who use them like an iPod Touch, with wifi-only. Right now it's trivial to just remove the SIM and be 100% confident that there is no attached data or voice plan. What happens in this new scenario?
  • Reply 30 of 35
    philboogiephilboogie Posts: 7,675member
    I don't get all the negative views on an e-SIM. In general, if we can do in software what we used to do in hardware I say it's a win for all.

    I'm certainly happy that Apple got rid of the floppy disc, CD-ROM, created the App Store for OSX, just so we finally stopped fiddling with hardware for which we had no reason to do since, what, 1995?

    People need to learn to adopt.
  • Reply 31 of 35
    blah64blah64 Posts: 993member
    philboogie wrote: »
    I don't get all the negative views on an e-SIM. In general, if we can do in software what we used to do in hardware I say it's a win for all.

    I'm certainly happy that Apple got rid of the floppy disc, CD-ROM, created the App Store for OSX, just so we finally stopped fiddling with hardware for which we had no reason to do since, what, 1995?

    People need to learn to adopt.

    It seems like you're not listening to what some of us have written. Software is not always a good substitute for hardware. Read this for a very serious example:

    http://www.wired.com/2015/07/hackers-remotely-kill-jeep-highway/

    EVERYONE should ready ^this^ article

    Hardware provides safety, and it provides a verifiable way for people to be in control of their own devices. Vehicles are an extreme case of this, but the same issues exist with home automation and many other things. Ceding "master" control to a 3rd party puts you at a higher risk than being able to physically manage it yourself. If/when this becomes embedded inside closed, locked mobile devices, then you are most certainly extending the requirement for users to trust your device, your OS, your apps, your telcos, etc. You may inherently trust everyone in this chain, but I don't. The fact that you need to trust something (all the way down the the chip level) doesn't negate the fact that being able to choose which SIM/company you're using at any point definitely provides better control and security over that aspect of your device.

    You didn't address the question of having NO SIM whatsoever. This is a far more common scenario than you think, I'm afraid - especially with kids/teens. I don't want any way for cell data to be enabled on those devices under any circumstances. How do you address that when it's embedded and controlled by software, and perhaps even remotely?
  • Reply 32 of 35
    philboogiephilboogie Posts: 7,675member
    blah64 wrote: »
    ^ post

    Oh, well, ok. A scenario where you don't want any cellular option is to get a device without that, I'd say. As for having user control over which telco to sign up with, I say do it in software. If there aren't any differences to a physical SIM and doing it in software then please, do remove the SIM card. I fully understand the the freedom we now have with unlocked phones and getting a SIM from a country we happen to travel at that moment, but if we can do this simply in software I still say it's a win.

    I used to swap SIM cards when abroad, but stopped doing that when the prices dropped and I simply roam nowadays. Choosing my provider when abroad...in software.

    Get the kids a new iPod touch. They'll love it and you'll love the fact it doesn't have any cellular options.
  • Reply 33 of 35
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,176member
    philboogie wrote: »
    Oh, well, ok. A scenario where you don't want any cellular option is to get a device without that, I'd say. As for having user control over which telco to sign up with, I say do it in software. If there aren't any differences to a physical SIM and doing it in software then please, do remove the SIM card. I fully understand the the freedom we now have with unlocked phones and getting a SIM from a country we happen to travel at that moment, but if we can do this simply in software I still say it's a win.
    I'm not sure how Motorola is accomplishing this, but their just announced MotoX Style is advertised as unlocked and compatible with any carrier. You choose. Perhaps they've used an eSim?
    http://www.engadget.com/2015/07/28/moto-x-style-pure-edition/
  • Reply 34 of 35
    philboogiephilboogie Posts: 7,675member
    gatorguy wrote: »
    philboogie wrote: »
    Oh, well, ok. A scenario where you don't want any cellular option is to get a device without that, I'd say. As for having user control over which telco to sign up with, I say do it in software. If there aren't any differences to a physical SIM and doing it in software then please, do remove the SIM card. I fully understand the the freedom we now have with unlocked phones and getting a SIM from a country we happen to travel at that moment, but if we can do this simply in software I still say it's a win.
    I'm not sure how Motorola is accomplishing this, but their just announced MotoX Style is advertised as unlocked and compatible with any carrier. You choose. Perhaps they've used an eSim?
    http://www.engadget.com/2015/07/28/moto-x-style-pure-edition/

    It's a nano SIM:

    http://www.motorola.com/on/demandware.store/Sites-Motorola_WE-Site/en/Product-Show?pid=moto-x-style-we

    They did put in triple cellular: GSM, CDMA, LTE. I think I that is special but don't know for certain as I only deal with GSM & LTE here in Europe.
  • Reply 35 of 35
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,176member
    philboogie wrote: »
    It's a nano SIM:

    http://www.motorola.com/on/demandware.store/Sites-Motorola_WE-Site/en/Product-Show?pid=moto-x-style-we

    They did put in triple cellular: GSM, CDMA, LTE. I think I that is special but don't know for certain as I only deal with GSM & LTE here in Europe.
    Ah thanks.
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