Trailer debuts for Steve Jobs documentary derided by Apple exec as 'mean-spirited'

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  • Reply 41 of 98
    rubaiyatrubaiyat Posts: 277member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JDW View Post

     

    No educated person should cast judgment on a book or film without having seen it first, with your own eyes.  

     

    Since one among us has apparently seen the film and has informed us of its negativity ahead of time (and thank you for that), we now know what to look for when we watch the film for ourselves.

     

    But one thing to keep in mind is that not all of us are equally observant or critical or mindful.  Some of us are liberal, some conservative. Some of us are timid, and others bold.  Some of us are engineers, others therapists.  These differences alter and vary our individual perception of people and things.  Dwell deeply on the statement, "one man's trash is another's treasure."  And so our views on films and books will vary wildly.

     

    Eddy Cue supposedly hated this Documentary film and yet he and Tim Cook and even Mr. Job's own wife are alleged to have heaped nothing but praise upon the recent tome, "Becoming Steve Jobs."  The support of that book by Apple itself was unprecedented.  For that very reason I bought a hardbound copy of that book when it first came out, adding it to my already full library of books on Apple and Jobs, hoping the new book would tell me something I'd not heard before.  But as I closed the last page I wondered to myself how in the world Mr. Cue or Mr. Cook or Mrs. Jobs could have united and said, "this is the first to have gotten it right," meaning "it showed Steve in the proper positive light."  They poo-poo'd all other books and videos as negative while praising that one book.  That would make anyone thing, "Man, this must be a really fabulous book then!"  But how do you feel while you read it and after you've read it?  That's key.

     

    You can read my 3-star review of "Becoming Steve Jobs" on Amazon here:

     

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/R2RTN46SWYBPHP/

     

    I did not mention China in that book review, but Becoming Steve Jobs does blast Jobs and Apple for basically having kill people at Apple factories there, toward the end of the book.  As such, I find it hard to believe that this Documentary Movie would be "much more negative" on Jobs than the highly acclaimed "Becoming Steve Jobs" book.  But you are free to cast your own judgment, fully understanding that none of us (to my knowledge) knew Jobs personally or dealt with him regularly.  We only know what we have read about him, what we've seen in films, and perhaps what we saw and heard of the man live at MacWorld Expos in years past.  

     

    Regardless of our beliefs on the man, regardless of whether one says it's been for the better or the worse, Steve Jobs really did do things that changed the world.  If you use an Apple product and like it, give Steve some credit.  Jobs lies at the heart of Apple, even to this day.


     

    I read your book review.

     

    You seem to have taken offence at purely common sense observations about his sometimes erratic and obsessive management.

     

    Overall he may have made some good decisions but there were frequent signature flaws in nearly everything he touched.

     

    One I noted was his obsession with oddball drives and connectors that have repeatedly handicapped Apple's products. Famously the initial single 3.5" floppy drive in the first Mac, and ban on a hard drive. An engineer sneakly skirted the ban to make it possible to retrofit a SCSI drive at great expense, something that probably saved the Mac from going straight to the dustbin of history.

     

    The bad decision to use horrendously expensive Sony optical drives and disks in his NEXT computers probably was a major contributor to its failure. The only way of delivering software on that machine was on a stupidly expensive and incompatibly untransferrable media. No wonder it went nowhere.

     

    No Rewritable CD drives in the early iMacs that also lacked floppy disks. You were supposed to email things to yourself or others. In other words to use another computer to make up for what this couldn't do, painful, time wasting and unnecessary. 

     

    Macs were a larger market but they have suffered from crazy swings of processors, drives, software standards and ports. We put up with them, didn't benefit from them. It sure cost us heaps for no real gain. The one part that I envied PC users was all the money and equipment they did not have to throw away at regular intervals, only to start all over again.

  • Reply 42 of 98

    The fact that Gaby Darbyshire, the former COO of Gawker media (i.e. Gizmodo), is executive producer here may have something to do with the unflattering editorial bent of the film. Remember the iPhone prototype loss/theft/stolen goods purchase scandal from a few years ago?

     

    Remember, always follow the money.

  • Reply 43 of 98
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AtlApple View Post

     

     

    Every great CEO can be ruthless, mean, abusive, a jerk whatever. This is why Cook will be the downfall of Apple at some point. He is more worried about being seen as a nice guy and being an activist on Twitter. Cook doesn't understand the one thing Jobs did, if you have the choice of being feared or loved go with fear it last longer.


    Oh so true, if only Steve Jobs was still alive. Apple would never have issued that damn dividend and they'd be 200 or 300 dollars a share by now.

    As it is, Timmy homo will lead it down the tubes! :no::no::no:

  • Reply 44 of 98
    solipsismysolipsismy Posts: 5,099member
    atlapple wrote: »
    Every great CEO can be ruthless, mean, abusive, a jerk whatever. This is why Cook will be the downfall of Apple at some point. He is more worried about being seen as a nice guy and being an activist on Twitter. Cook doesn't understand the one thing Jobs did, if you have the choice of being feared or loved go with fear it last longer. 
    1) Where is the connection? You're saying that Cook is not capable of any of those traits? You're saying that those pejorative traits are more important than being brilliant, driven, focused, and knowledgeable? As already [@]Potsie Webber[/@] indicated, Apple has done nothing but rise under Tim Cook.

    2) Your "your have to be an asshole to be successful" implication may be true for a weaker person, but it's not necessarily true for all people. But that's beside the point, because you still haven't shown anything that shows that Jobs was without any compassion or that because Cook doesn't waste his time attacking others in interviews that it means he doesn't ruthlessly work to beat them in business. One could argue that Steve's filter-less approach in interviews was just to justify his own actions, but we not directly helpful to Apple's growth.
  • Reply 45 of 98
    rubaiyatrubaiyat Posts: 277member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SolipsismY View Post





    If you do a search you'll find Apple execs talking about Steve's kindness as well as potential anonymous donations, like a $150,000,000 to the Helen Diller Family Comprehensive Cancer Center at the University of California, San Francisco.



    Now the latter you'll say doesn't count because it's anonymous and we know you want it to her verified, but that the point I was making. You want the donation to have been set in stone with a value, a name, and a clear money trail. Why? What does it matter except for narcissists to make themselves feel better.



    This also goes along with the quote previously stated in this thread, "You don’t care about how they feel! You’re being vain, you want them to like you.” Bill Gates is charitable, given away his ill-gotten fortune, and you feel the ends justifies the means. That's fine, many agree with you, but I'm still wondering how you're so shallow as to label someone as uncharitable simply because you follow the breadcrumbs back to the bronze statue they had made of themselves. I bet Donald Trump has only even made a calculated donation and made sure that his name was clearly attributed each and every time. Is that really the right message you want to be sending?



    Why does being pragmatic or expecting people to be their best mean you're not charitable? Do you think your parents wanting their children to become independent and learned as cruel, and coddling to the point of co-dependncy as kind? I certainly don't, which is why that above quote is so dead on. Your kids and your employees aren't your friends. Get them to earn your respect through a work ethic, not get them to like you.



    PS: Accessibility features in Apple's OSes existed long before Steve Jobs was dead, but if Jobs was so against anything to help others why did they exist at all?

     

    Accessibility features are a Federal requirement and Apple mostly trailed everyone else on implementing them. All of which is irrelevant, except the belatedness of it all. What made you mention it? Scrapping the barrel perhaps? Or suggesting that any criticism of Steve Jobs immediately leaps to the accusation that he is the devil incarnate. 

     

    Giving anonymously is fine, no-one is requiring you to heap praise on yourself and the examples you give of people "buying righteusness" are of course only going to work on the soft headed, of which there are many.

     

    Apple Executives, a Steve Jobs selected group who benefitted enormously from him, are really are going to say bad things about him? Although some of their anecdotes about him, are not flattering.

     

    The supposed secret donation to the Helen Diller Family Comprehensive Cancer Center is pure specualtion. Which you have amplified into fact.

     

    He may have, he also perhaps may have not made the donation. We don't know.

     

    All we know is that he left a vast fortune to his wife and children and she has made the significant donations, that he didn't.

  • Reply 46 of 98
    solipsismysolipsismy Posts: 5,099member
    [quote name="rubaiyat" url="/t/187355/trailer-debuts-for-steve-jobs-documentary-derided-by-apple-exec-as-mean-spirited/40#post_2752531"]What made you mention it? [/QUOTE]

    When we work on making our devices accessible by the blind,” Cool said, “I don’t consider the bloody ROI.

    [QUOTE]Apple Executives, a Steve Jobs selected group who benefitted enormously from him, are really are going to say bad things about him?[/QUOTE]

    A person like myself and I would think a person like Jobs would say the truth regardless of whether it was good or not if it helped make that person better.

    [QUOTE]We don't know.[/QUOTE]

    Again, my point, but you wish to claim that he wasn't charitable.

    The bottom line is your reasoning, while standard, isn't inline with how I perceive the situation and looks to also not be inline with Jobs. I'd say that Jobs questioned things to a degree that you couldn't comprehend. I make that assertion based on things you previously stated, like Jobs parking in a handicapped space is proof that he was a ruthless megalomanic or that he would needlessly attack those that couldn't defend themselves. I take umbrage with two things with that last one: 1) What you call attacking I would simply call shaming, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. We all have blindspots unto ourselves so unless you are a completely superficial and narcissistic asshole you should want to be better version of yourself. When it comes to work you should never be upset by someone working to make you a better, more effective employee. 2) How the **** do you know they couldn't defend themselves? Were they mutes? Were they not in the room? You think it would be better for Jobs to simple send some HR lackey to have these people fired or transferred without any knowledge of why their results were not excellent? I don't, and I'm tired of this entitled society where we all have to be given first place trophies and told we're special no matter how mediocre our efforts.
  • Reply 47 of 98
    flaneurflaneur Posts: 4,526member
    cash907 wrote: »
    Pretty sure his "redemption" came from reconciling with his daughter and friends like Woz, whom he had burned badly on his downward spiral, not from rebuilding Apple.
    But hey, if money is higher in your book than morality, sure, what you said.

    I'd agree with the Lisa reconciliation. Don't know about him "badly burning" Woz. What are you referring to?

    You're badly misunderstanding what I meant if you think his redemption is represented by Apple's financial success. I'm talking about character redemption in the philosophical sense, like the way Lyndon Johnson redeemed himself (partially) for Viet Nam witth Civil Rights, for example. But then I doubt you share my opinion that Apple has always been seen by Jobs as a moral enterprise, and he just got better at it as the years went by, and he collected enough like-minded people to sustain it into the future.
  • Reply 48 of 98
    mdriftmeyermdriftmeyer Posts: 7,503member
    Having been employed by him twice, I am well versed in his charities. And those of his wife before his death and after.
  • Reply 49 of 98
    rubaiyatrubaiyat Posts: 277member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post



    Having been employed by him twice, I am well versed in his charities. And those of his wife before his death and after.

     

    Elaborate. You may have some evidence that we have not seen elsewhere.

  • Reply 50 of 98
    flaneurflaneur Posts: 4,526member
    ration al wrote: »
    The fact that Gaby Darbyshire, the former COO of Gawker media (i.e. Gizmodo), is executive producer here may have something to do with the unflattering editorial bent of the film. Remember the iPhone prototype loss/theft/stolen goods purchase scandal from a few years ago?

    Remember, always follow the money.

    Hey, I forgot about that, thanks for reminding. In addition to following the money, use the nose to follow that smell of digital fishwrapping from lower Manhatten. Gawker is out to get Apple, even before the phone theft.
  • Reply 51 of 98
    solipsismysolipsismy Posts: 5,099member
    flaneur wrote: »
    Don't know about him burning Woz. What are you referring to?

    It's in the trailer right from Woz's mouth and all over the internet. Woz wrote code that Jobs sold with an agreement of 50/50 but Jobs said he sold it for 1/10th for what said he sold it which netted Jobs 95% of the sale.
  • Reply 52 of 98
    jdwjdw Posts: 1,324member
    Quote:



    Originally Posted by rubaiyat View Post

     

    I read your book review.

    You seem to have taken offense at purely common sense observations about his sometimes erratic and obsessive management.

    Overall he may have made some good decisions but there were frequent signature flaws in nearly everything he touched.


     

    Thank you for reading it.  And thank you for sharing your opinion.  But again, one man's trash is another's treasure.  What you call "common sense" isn't necessarily so common, nor would everyone view it negatively.  "He made good decisions BUT..." is telling when you read just how much comes after the BUT.  

     

    Don't get me wrong.  I am not Steve Job's biggest fan.  For example, one of the best CRT compact Macs that Apple ever made came out when Steve was NOT at Apple — the SE/30.  It was great because of its expandability, something Steve hated.  I've disagreed with Steve on many things through the years and even wrote him email a couple times to say so.  But through it all, I still perceived the genius and gave him credit where credit was due.

     

    To view all his so-called "flaws" negatively is to misunderstand LEADERSHIP and GENIUS.   And the authors of Becoming Steve Jobs really did give a lot of personal opinion which describes those "flaws" as negative, hence my 3-star review.  But as I state in my review, the book quotes stand on their own.  You should read the whole book if you haven't already, but the quotes I put in my review are telling about the basic feel of the book.  

     

    So again, I don't feel necessarily that the Documentary Film that we are discussing in this forum will be too much more "negative" about Steve than Becoming Steve Jobs.  But to know that, I will need to watch them film for myself.  I trust you will do the same.  And in the end, you and I may disagree about what we see in the film.  But that can be a good thing.  Steve liked DIVERSITY of THOUGHT, and so do it.  If you worked for Steve and disagreed with him, Steve would go after you not because you disagreed with him necessarily, but just to see if you could justify your disagreement with him, proving your idea was superior to his.  So I don't mind if you disagree with my assessment.  If everyone agreed with me, it would be a very boring world indeed.

  • Reply 53 of 98
    rubaiyatrubaiyat Posts: 277member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SolipsismY View Post





    I'd say that Jobs questioned things to a degree that you couldn't comprehend.

     

    How would you know? I question everything, including the frequently self projecting excuses many people make about others.

     

    I particularly question the obsessive singular obsession with "Stuff". The material objects people surround themselves with to fill in the absence of anything else.

     

    Steve Jobs seemed to be particularly be more concerned about objects than people, a narrow focus that was useful in his career and aspirations. And useful to us in that it leveraged our ability to manipulate and create more meaningful things than the consumer products he worked on.

     

    Steve Jobs didn't just create the Mac, the iPhone, the iPod and the iPad he played a large part in creating the self obsessed society that shows more affection and concern with the consumer products than with each other. A generation into selfies, and inane twitter. The generation that views the world through their gadgets, oblivious to the real world and everyone else around them.

     

    Ironically it was Pixar, a Steve Jobs creation, that so cuttingly portrayed these lazy, obese time wasters in WALL-E.

  • Reply 54 of 98
    atlappleatlapple Posts: 496member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SolipsismY View Post





    1) Where is the connection? You're saying that Cook is not capable of any of those traits? You're saying that those pejorative traits are more important than being brilliant, driven, focused, and knowledgeable? As already @Potsie Webber indicated, Apple has done nothing but rise under Tim Cook.



    2) Your "your have to be an asshole to be successful" implication may be true for a weaker person, but it's not necessarily true for all people. But that's beside the point, because you still haven't shown anything that shows that Jobs was without any compassion or that because Cook doesn't waste his time attacking others in interviews that it means he doesn't ruthlessly work to beat them in business. One could argue that Steve's filter-less approach in interviews was just to justify his own actions, but we not directly helpful to Apple's growth.



    First I'm not sure Cook has proven to be brilliant, driven, focused and knowledgeable. I question his focus most of all. Apple has risen under Cook because Apple was already on the rise. As long as no one can compete with the iPhone Apple will continue to dominate. The first major release under Cook is the Apple Watch and in spite of how many here want to defend it, let's be honest it hasn't gone all that well. The roll out most off all was bad and that is on Cook. 

     

    The experience I have which is how I can somewhat relate to having a really hard core leader is I worked under Jack Welch. At one point Welch had more employees under him then any company in the world. With Welch you are either one or two in the industry or your department was gone. I worked for GE Capital which was the cash cow for GE, now under Immelt the stock hasn't moved more than four dollars up an down for years. 

     

    Under Welch I always had this feeling of a low level fear it pushed me to do better, I knew I had to do better because there was never any option. Jobs was like that I just don't get the feel Cook is like that. I could be wrong because I don't work for Apple. 

     

    You never saw any of this side stuff with Jobs the activism, I would call it extreme activism in some cases. I don't know how you can be weight in on social issues and still be fully focused at running the most profitable company in the world. I would also argue staying at the top is harder then getting tot he top. 

     

    We have seen a few poor rollouts with Cook and that falls on him he is the CEO it's his job to make sure things like that don't happen. I know  a lot of brilliant people that aren't focused.

     

    I don't Apple shining the spotlight on themselves all the time, the diversity push, the best person should just get the job if the product is great people don't care about the optics.

     

    It's just may take on the situation as in investor. Microsoft has been poorly managed for over a decade yet they are still around and they still have a fairly nice market cap, Apple can be doing well doesn't mean they are still being run well. Right now I feel like we have a one hit wonder, iPhone numbers and only iPhone numbers. 

     

    The reality is China is going to be a problem for Apple, even Cook admitted it's going to be a speed bump. If iPhone numbers don't hit the mark we are going to see the stock drop like a rock. I believe iPhones are 63% of the net profit we need another home run and the Apple Watch was suppose to be that product. 

     

    So I'm just not big on Cook, not sure he was the right guy for the job.

  • Reply 55 of 98
    solipsismysolipsismy Posts: 5,099member
    rubaiyat wrote: »
    How would you know? I question everything,

    Clearly you don't as your own words show that you never questioned whether he may have donated in private or was harsh to employees to make them better.

    atlapple wrote: »
    First I'm not sure Cook has proven to be brilliant, driven, focused and knowledgeable.

    Not that I expect everyone to come to the only correct conclusion as quickly as I (and others) have, but Cook has been running Apple for far too long with far too many product releases to not see that his leadership and focus is running Apple well.
  • Reply 56 of 98
    flaneurflaneur Posts: 4,526member
    solipsismy wrote: »
    It's in the trailer right from Woz's mouth and all over the internet. Woz wrote code that Jobs sold with an agreement of 50/50 but Jobs said he sold it for 1/10th for what said he sold it which netted Jobs 95% of the sale.

    Thanks, waiting to see if that's what Cash meant by "burned badly."
  • Reply 57 of 98
    solipsismysolipsismy Posts: 5,099member
    flaneur wrote: »
    Thanks, waiting to see if that's what Cash meant by "burned badly."

    Ah. Probably not since he references it as part of Jobs "downward spiral" and that event occurred before Apple was off the ground. That said, I can see how someone like Woz would never dream of cheating someone like that. Not for $7 or $7 million. I would think that would hurt Woz deeply and while he seems very forgiving there would still be a scar from someone he would call a friend and partner being so cheap and greedy.
  • Reply 58 of 98
    jdwjdw Posts: 1,324member
    Quote:



    Originally Posted by Cash907 View Post



    Pretty sure his "redemption" came from reconciling with his daughter and friends like Woz, whom he had burned badly on his downward spiral, not from rebuilding Apple. But hey, if money is higher in your book than morality, sure, what you said.

    "Redemption" (being saved from sin/evil, forgiveness of a debt) in this case is nothing more what what some people "want to perceive."

     

    Steve reconciled with people...  But so what?  You and I do the same.  Steve was a business leader who changed the world, but he wasn't Divine.  He was like you and me in many more ways than you may be willing to admit.

     

    Woz felt hurt that Steve lied to him, but Woz moved on.  Woz didn't dwell on that event 24/7 or allow it to destroy their friendship or business.  If he had, Woz would have never done anything after that lie.  That part is never emphasized whenever that story is mentioned.  Woz constantly brings it up in speeches because it triggers emotions in people.  But to quip "Steve burned Woz!" and say little more than that is to mislead people about Steve Jobs.  If you don't have all the story, you cannot accurately assess the big picture.  I see a lot of people who praise or tear down Steve Jobs based on a few short historical tidbits they read about.  That's not right.  Before we point our finger at someone else, let's research all the facts first and then reflect on the three fingers pointing back to ourselves.  We should we be so eager to cast the first stone?

     

    Consider also that Woz was often out of control in those early years and derelict in his engineering duties at Apple.  Imagine the tech Apple could have produced if lazy old Woz had set his mind to it as much as he set his mind to rock concerts!  Steve had much more focus that Woz, and Steve was driven to get things done.  Woz lacked that drive.  Woz helped to get Apple started, without question.  He deserves credit for that.  And he takes advantage of that constantly with speeches worldwide.  But what Apple has become and the products we love today are not really tied to or connected to Woz at all.  They are products strongly inspired by Steve Jobs.  We can get on our moral high-horse all we like about Jobs, but as Jobs once said to a critic, "What have YOU done that was so great?"  Seriously, what have YOU done?  What have I myself done??  Have you or I sufficiently plucked the BEAM from our own eye so as to see clearly enough to pluck the splinter from Steve's?  Steve is easy to criticize because quite frankly, his life is truly an open-book for all to read.  Imagine the moral heat you and I would get if our lives were published in public. We should temper excessive criticism of Steve with that in mind.

  • Reply 59 of 98
    rubaiyat wrote: »
    ...as opposed to all the hagiographies, so many, that only show his good side and gloss over his many failures? Or all the "if only Steve Jobs were alive today he'd never let this happen..." claims by "believers" you get in the forums, ignoring that he often did exactly what they said he'd never do.

    The man was a mean, self-centred, uncharitable bastard, maybe that was necessary to get done what he did, but it was a fact and it does make a fascinating mix.

    What fascinates me most is his professed Buddhist beliefs and his lack of charity and almost megalomanic ruthlessness to people. But religion and hypocrisy are a marriage made in heaven.

    Ah yes, the "Jobs hated charity" narrative.

    You realize Bill only donates because his wife pulled him into it, and he loves the recognition and the fact that he gets to advance many terrible (as in literally harmful) policies? Jobs didn't donate to most charities because they just exist to support themselves.
  • Reply 60 of 98
    rubaiyatrubaiyat Posts: 277member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SolipsismY View Post





    Clearly you don't as your own words show that you never questioned whether he may have donated in private or was harsh to employees to make them better.

     

    I clearly do, I questioned it and researched it. Did you? He is on record of having donated $50 million to the cancer clinic that worked on him (the grateful patient) but your statement of the $150 million donation is simple unsubstantiated speculation. Nobody knows who made that donation.

     

    That he was cruel (not harsh) to his employees was to get them to do what he wanted or get rid of them.

     

    He was not into people improvement anywhere that I can see. He was into object improvement. It very much appears that the only thing he truly loved outside of himself, were his objects and he convincingly portrayed that when he launched them, no matter what flaws they had in reality. 

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