You fail to think. Let me put it as simply as I can:
What Apple needs to do:
1. Convince merchants to install NFC terminals because they are not ubiquitous.
2. Convince banks to sign up.
3. Convince customers to use it.
Problems:
1. Merchants won't pay for terminals because nobody will use it.
2. Banks won't sign up because nobody will use it.
3. Customers won't buy NFC phones and activate it because there's nowhere to use it.
<span style="line-height:1.4em;">Stalemate.</span>
MasterCard's solution.
1. Merchants must install terminals period. No argument allowed.
3. Customers can now use it everywhere. Excuse gone.
2. Now banks will sign up because people want to spend their money with it.
Simple.
:sigh:
1) You claimed the MC is "doing Apple's work" and you said that work is MC forcing all EU retailers to install terminals with NFC. Then you claim that even with that happening the EU that merchants won't pay for the terminals? WHAT THE ****!
2) Banks are signing up because Apple Pay will result in a huge reduction in fraud. Go watch Cook's announcement from a year ago to see what percentages of US citizens had banks onboard before it ever launched.
3) MC forcing everyone in the EU to update to NFC-based terminals by 2020 is no way the same as what the banks have to do on their back end. NFC ? Apple Pay.
4) Regardless of your misplaced hate for Apple or Cook, Apple Pay has been a success, will continue to make strides, and everyone else will follow suit because it's the only way that makes sense going forward. Just take a look at the upcoming Android Pay.
1) You claimed the MC is "doing Apple's work" and you said that work is forcing all EU retailers to install terminals with NFC. Then you claim that even with that happening the EU that merchants won't pay for the terminals? WHAT THE ****!
2) Banks are signing up because Apple Pay's framework will result in a huge reduction in fraud. Go watch Cook's announcement from a year ago to see what percentages of US citizens had banks onboard before it ever launched.
3) MC forcing everyone in the EU to update to NFC-based terminals by 2020 is no way the same as what the banks have to do on their back end. NFC ? Apple Pay.
4) Regardless of your misplaced hate for Apple or Cook, Apple Pay has been a success, will continue to make strides, and everyone else will follow suit because it's on the way that makes sense going forward. Just take a look at the upcoming Android Pay.
You don't know what you're talking about at all. MasterCard has cultivated the ecosystem in a way Apple can't, because MasterCard can impose conditions on merchants. Apple has no relationship to merchants.
Apple has had limited success in signing up overseas banks. Because US is credit-heavy, versus foreign countries (specifically Germany and China), banks and networks here have a much higher interchange rate to pay Apple with. The most obvious is that Apple has failed to get China UnionPay on board. Canada is a perfect example of this. Why haven't we seen it in Canada? Interac.
Apple Pay is exactly EMV. Apple Pay is no more secure than the contact smart card that banks are issuing. You don't understand that at all.
Maybe if you put aside your fanboyism and listened, you could learn a lot. I bet you can't even explain to me what interchange rate is.
You don't know what you're talking about at all. MasterCard has cultivated the ecosystem in a way Apple can't, because MasterCard can impose conditions on merchants. Apple has no relationship to merchants.
So this isn't Apple's work, but MC's work, despite your previous claim that Apple should somehow force a mandate of getting all EU retailers to upgrade to NFC-capable terminals.
Apple has had limited success in signing up overseas banks. Because US is credit-heavy, versus foreign countries (specifically Germany and China), banks and networks here have a much higher interchange rate to pay Apple with. The most obvious is that <span style="line-height:1.4em;">Apple has failed to get China UnionPay on board.</span>
And Apple doing some forceful mandates in the EU would make that sooo much better¡
Apple Pay is exactly EMV.
Nope!
Maybe if you put aside your fanboyism and listened, you could learn a lot. I bet you can't even explain to me what interchange rate is.
I know the facts, I was just trying to figure out your contradictory statements… and now I have.
Apple has done a very good job at the upstream end, lining up banks and credit card companies; a mediocre job at the midstream end, gaining retailers; and a rather poor job at the downstream end educating and advertising to iPhone 6 and AppleWatch users.
I am sure this will change. Moreover, from the get-go (and as I posted many times here when it was first introduced), I did not expect ApplePay to become really big until 2016/17. However, Apple needs to put some serious advertising and promotion muscle behind it.
Explain then. How does Apple Pay avoid fraud over EMV?
I'm sick and tired of jackassery. It's been almost a fucking year since Apple Pay was first introduced so by now you should be well versed in how Apple Pay is not EXACTLY THE SAME as EMV.
I use Apple Pay daily in the cafeteria and coffee shop at my customer's site. I use my Apple Watch instead of my iPhone because it's easier and also faster for some reason. Touch ID seems to take a bit longer than the watch (which is instantaneous). When you push the side button the credit card is active for 60 seconds, so you can prepare the watch for payment before you get to the POS terminal. I look for places that accept it now and will shop at those over ones that don't whenever possible. So far I've used it to buy a laser printer at Staples, stuff at Walgreen's, groceries at ACME supermarket and fast food at McDonalds drive-thru. McDonald's has been hit or miss though -- mostly due to the lack of training. One employee thought I wanted an apple pie when I said I wanted to use Apple Pay for the order...there is a big sticker on the drive-thru window advertising the fact that Apple Pay is accepted there. I guess there's going to be a learning curve. Most people who have seen me use it have commented on "how cool/how fast/how simple" it was to pay for something by just quickly placing my watch in front of the NFC terminal. I just like it because it's so easy to use, it generally always works and I know that it's more secure. I agree with some of the other comments regarding Apple doing a better job of promoting and educating around the use and benefits of Apple Pay. To me it's one of the best uses for Apple Watch.
How would starting in another country help American adoption? How do you know that Apple would have had as much success with the banks in other countries? Yes, Apple does need retailers onboard for this to work, but the banks have to come first. The US was the smartest way to go about this because Apple can get the banks on board much easier and because the US retailers will need more time to work in NFC-based payments.
You've provided zero evidence that U.S. banks are more cooperative than those in other countries. Had Apple Pay made it's debut in Canada, another country with iPhone usage share over 40% but that has contactless terminals in all retailers worth going to, Apple Pay would have taken off much faster and avoided this kind of bad press. Nor are these mutually exclusive options I might add.
You've provided zero evidence that U.S. banks are more cooperative than those in other countries. Had Apple Pay made it's debut in Canada, another country with iPhone usage share over 40% but that has contactless terminals in all retailers worth going to, Apple Pay would have taken off much faster and avoided this kind of bad press. Nor are these mutually exclusive options I might add.
Sure, I can show you an exhaustive list of US banks that support Apple Pay as well as refer you to the banks that supported Apple Pay during it's debut special event, but you're right, I will never be able to prove that Apple didn't first go to all banks in Canada to get them to rework their back end systems to support an untested Apple service which banks would only have countless failed attempts in which to compare, but do you think that is really likely? Do you think that Apple choose US banks because those were the banks that were most difficult to get and the ones they had the least association with? I certainly don't.
Still waiting for Australia to get Apple Pay (Sigh...) why the wait, clearly not apple but probably the cartel of banks holding it up. I won't be holding my breath for this to happen anytime soon if history is anything to go by.
Call me an idiot, but I can't figure out how to get ApplePay to work %u2014 and I'm only in my 40s. I actually have used it several times, but I only got it to work by accident, both times differently. (It's like of the steering wheel was in a different place each time you got in the car.)
Ideally I could hold my (off) phone up to something, and it would be done without user interaction. But no. Instead, you either have to touch the Apple ID button%u2026 or press it%u2026 or hold it%u2026 or maybe I have to go into Wallet? Or maybe several of those things! All I know is that when I'm at the front of the queue, I don%u2019t have time to be trying various combinations to see what works. Anyway, so that's why I don%u2019t use it, and I can't be the only one.
Far too many merchants still don't even know about Apple Pay. I think Apple needs an advertising blitz like they did for the watch.
When Apple Pay first was available, I called my bank to ask when they would support it. The employee I spoke with had no idea what I was talking about. They've since added support, but that was a sign to me that Apple needs to do a better marketing job.
Ideally I could hold my (off) phone up to something, and it would be done without user interaction. But no. Instead, you either have to touch the Apple ID button%u2026 or press it%u2026 or hold it%u2026 or maybe I have to go into Wallet? Or maybe several of those things!
All you do is hold your iPhone 6/6+ up to the terminal, even when it is locked, and then place your finger on the Home button for about a second when prompted. It's pretty simple. It's even easier than removing a wallet, removing the card, swiping it (hopefully once), returning it to your wallet and then putting the wallet back.
I'm surprised that someone who can apparently sign up for an iOS 9 beta and get it downloaded and installed has trouble with using Apple Pay.
Call me an idiot, but I can't figure out how to get ApplePay to work %u2014 and I'm only in my 40s. I actually have used it several times, but I only got it to work by accident, both times differently. (It's like of the steering wheel was in a different place each time you got in the car.)
Ideally I could hold my (off) phone up to something, and it would be done without user interaction. But no. Instead, you either have to touch the Apple ID button%u2026 or press it%u2026 or hold it%u2026 or maybe I have to go into Wallet? Or maybe several of those things! All I know is that when I'm at the front of the queue, I don%u2019t have time to be trying various combinations to see what works. Anyway, so that's why I don%u2019t use it, and I can't be the only one.
Since you invited me to call you an idiot, I will do so: You IDIOT!!
The reason you need to touch the Apple ID button so the iPhone knows it is you using the device to approve taking money out of your account. The way you want to use it would allow anyone who got possession of your phone to spend your money. FYI, the Apple watch will allow you to pay without touching any ID button because you had to authorize the watch in the morning when you strapped it on your wrist.
And "no" you are not the only idiot who can't walk and chew gum while going through a checkout line. Fortunately most of them are at Walmart shitting themselves while they shop.
Absent that Touch ID anyone who picked up your misplaced iPhone could spend YOUR money without much limit. Having to touch the Touch ID scanner with my thumb while holding the phone to the terminal is a very small price to pay imho. Works smoothly for me, perhaps a bit more reliably than optical scanners used to grab my grocery membership bsrcode off the screen has, though for optical the Starbucks scanners never seem to have trouble.
Bottomline? Anytime I can use a secure token where NONE of my data is at risk (that's Apple Pay) I'm going to do it and for routine purchases where I have a choice the Apple Pay participating store is always going to get my business over the nonparticipating. I don't want my cards replaced ever again for "suspected compromises". Twice in about a year was enough.
Did Apple Pay at Trader Joes today and receipt where normally shows last 4 digits of my credit card number instead shows some random number. I mean, if that is not secure, what is? Handing over your credit card to a guy who might have a flash scanner under the counter? Are people stupid? Lol
Ideally I could hold my (off) phone up to something, and it would be done without user interaction. But no.
Not having to do anything else would be more convenient but, as
Macky the Macky states, having to use Touch ID (or a device passcode) to authenticate the transaction is where the initial security comes into play. This is a great trade off, and while Apple Pay will work without Touch ID, the convenience of Touch ID along with Apple Pay is a huge bonus.
Note that the Apple Pay pay options will only come up when the NFC radio in your device picks up another NFC radio, which is another way this is secure this near-field communication creates a very small local loop. Then of course there is the massive and brilliant changes that have the card data stored on the device to not be the same as the physical card you used to input it into the Wallet app for Apple Pay thus keeping that physical card safe, even if a MITM attack could somehow steal that representational card number and reverse engineer the tokening system used on your device with your bank. EMV is a great jump in security but it's still a physical card whose primary security feature will be the inclusion of a PIN for transactions over a certain amount, which really puts it on par with old timey ATM cards.
Did Apple Pay at Trader Joes today and receipt where normally shows last 4 digits of my credit card number instead shows some random number. I mean, if that is not secure, what is? Handing over your credit card to a guy who might have a flash scanner under the counter? Are people stupid? Lol
Can you check the last four on your receipt to the last 4 shown in Wallet for your card on the Device Account Number line. This is just below the Card Number line. The card number is the physical card's number, but the Device Account Number is your representational card number that is essentially an alias on your bank's servers. My guess is that they match up since that '************1234' on the receipt is so the customer can also keep track of which card was used.
Comments
:sigh:
1) You claimed the MC is "doing Apple's work" and you said that work is MC forcing all EU retailers to install terminals with NFC. Then you claim that even with that happening the EU that merchants won't pay for the terminals? WHAT THE ****!
2) Banks are signing up because Apple Pay will result in a huge reduction in fraud. Go watch Cook's announcement from a year ago to see what percentages of US citizens had banks onboard before it ever launched.
3) MC forcing everyone in the EU to update to NFC-based terminals by 2020 is no way the same as what the banks have to do on their back end. NFC ? Apple Pay.
4) Regardless of your misplaced hate for Apple or Cook, Apple Pay has been a success, will continue to make strides, and everyone else will follow suit because it's the only way that makes sense going forward. Just take a look at the upcoming Android Pay.
:sigh:
That's is some grade-A horse shit
1) You claimed the MC is "doing Apple's work" and you said that work is forcing all EU retailers to install terminals with NFC. Then you claim that even with that happening the EU that merchants won't pay for the terminals? WHAT THE ****!
2) Banks are signing up because Apple Pay's framework will result in a huge reduction in fraud. Go watch Cook's announcement from a year ago to see what percentages of US citizens had banks onboard before it ever launched.
3) MC forcing everyone in the EU to update to NFC-based terminals by 2020 is no way the same as what the banks have to do on their back end. NFC ? Apple Pay.
4) Regardless of your misplaced hate for Apple or Cook, Apple Pay has been a success, will continue to make strides, and everyone else will follow suit because it's on the way that makes sense going forward. Just take a look at the upcoming Android Pay.
You don't know what you're talking about at all. MasterCard has cultivated the ecosystem in a way Apple can't, because MasterCard can impose conditions on merchants. Apple has no relationship to merchants.
Apple has had limited success in signing up overseas banks. Because US is credit-heavy, versus foreign countries (specifically Germany and China), banks and networks here have a much higher interchange rate to pay Apple with. The most obvious is that Apple has failed to get China UnionPay on board. Canada is a perfect example of this. Why haven't we seen it in Canada? Interac.
Apple Pay is exactly EMV. Apple Pay is no more secure than the contact smart card that banks are issuing. You don't understand that at all.
Maybe if you put aside your fanboyism and listened, you could learn a lot. I bet you can't even explain to me what interchange rate is.
So this isn't Apple's work, but MC's work, despite your previous claim that Apple should somehow force a mandate of getting all EU retailers to upgrade to NFC-capable terminals.
And Apple doing some forceful mandates in the EU would make that sooo much better¡
Nope!
I know the facts, I was just trying to figure out your contradictory statements… and now I have.
Nope!
Explain then. How does Apple Pay avoid fraud over EMV?
Protip: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204274
I use it everywhere I can... but so few retailers actually accept it.
I am sure this will change. Moreover, from the get-go (and as I posted many times here when it was first introduced), I did not expect ApplePay to become really big until 2016/17. However, Apple needs to put some serious advertising and promotion muscle behind it.
I'm sick and tired of jackassery. It's been almost a fucking year since Apple Pay was first introduced so by now you should be well versed in how Apple Pay is not EXACTLY THE SAME as EMV.
I use Apple Pay daily in the cafeteria and coffee shop at my customer's site. I use my Apple Watch instead of my iPhone because it's easier and also faster for some reason. Touch ID seems to take a bit longer than the watch (which is instantaneous). When you push the side button the credit card is active for 60 seconds, so you can prepare the watch for payment before you get to the POS terminal. I look for places that accept it now and will shop at those over ones that don't whenever possible. So far I've used it to buy a laser printer at Staples, stuff at Walgreen's, groceries at ACME supermarket and fast food at McDonalds drive-thru. McDonald's has been hit or miss though -- mostly due to the lack of training. One employee thought I wanted an apple pie when I said I wanted to use Apple Pay for the order...there is a big sticker on the drive-thru window advertising the fact that Apple Pay is accepted there. I guess there's going to be a learning curve. Most people who have seen me use it have commented on "how cool/how fast/how simple" it was to pay for something by just quickly placing my watch in front of the NFC terminal. I just like it because it's so easy to use, it generally always works and I know that it's more secure. I agree with some of the other comments regarding Apple doing a better job of promoting and educating around the use and benefits of Apple Pay. To me it's one of the best uses for Apple Watch.
How would starting in another country help American adoption? How do you know that Apple would have had as much success with the banks in other countries? Yes, Apple does need retailers onboard for this to work, but the banks have to come first. The US was the smartest way to go about this because Apple can get the banks on board much easier and because the US retailers will need more time to work in NFC-based payments.
You've provided zero evidence that U.S. banks are more cooperative than those in other countries. Had Apple Pay made it's debut in Canada, another country with iPhone usage share over 40% but that has contactless terminals in all retailers worth going to, Apple Pay would have taken off much faster and avoided this kind of bad press. Nor are these mutually exclusive options I might add.
Sure, I can show you an exhaustive list of US banks that support Apple Pay as well as refer you to the banks that supported Apple Pay during it's debut special event, but you're right, I will never be able to prove that Apple didn't first go to all banks in Canada to get them to rework their back end systems to support an untested Apple service which banks would only have countless failed attempts in which to compare, but do you think that is really likely? Do you think that Apple choose US banks because those were the banks that were most difficult to get and the ones they had the least association with? I certainly don't.
Ideally I could hold my (off) phone up to something, and it would be done without user interaction. But no. Instead, you either have to touch the Apple ID button%u2026 or press it%u2026 or hold it%u2026 or maybe I have to go into Wallet? Or maybe several of those things! All I know is that when I'm at the front of the queue, I don%u2019t have time to be trying various combinations to see what works. Anyway, so that's why I don%u2019t use it, and I can't be the only one.
When Apple Pay first was available, I called my bank to ask when they would support it. The employee I spoke with had no idea what I was talking about. They've since added support, but that was a sign to me that Apple needs to do a better marketing job.
All you do is hold your iPhone 6/6+ up to the terminal, even when it is locked, and then place your finger on the Home button for about a second when prompted. It's pretty simple. It's even easier than removing a wallet, removing the card, swiping it (hopefully once), returning it to your wallet and then putting the wallet back.
I'm surprised that someone who can apparently sign up for an iOS 9 beta and get it downloaded and installed has trouble with using Apple Pay.
Call me an idiot, but I can't figure out how to get ApplePay to work %u2014 and I'm only in my 40s. I actually have used it several times, but I only got it to work by accident, both times differently. (It's like of the steering wheel was in a different place each time you got in the car.)
Ideally I could hold my (off) phone up to something, and it would be done without user interaction. But no. Instead, you either have to touch the Apple ID button%u2026 or press it%u2026 or hold it%u2026 or maybe I have to go into Wallet? Or maybe several of those things! All I know is that when I'm at the front of the queue, I don%u2019t have time to be trying various combinations to see what works. Anyway, so that's why I don%u2019t use it, and I can't be the only one.
Since you invited me to call you an idiot, I will do so: You IDIOT!!
The reason you need to touch the Apple ID button so the iPhone knows it is you using the device to approve taking money out of your account. The way you want to use it would allow anyone who got possession of your phone to spend your money. FYI, the Apple watch will allow you to pay without touching any ID button because you had to authorize the watch in the morning when you strapped it on your wrist.
And "no" you are not the only idiot who can't walk and chew gum while going through a checkout line. Fortunately most of them are at Walmart shitting themselves while they shop.
Bottomline? Anytime I can use a secure token where NONE of my data is at risk (that's Apple Pay) I'm going to do it and for routine purchases where I have a choice the Apple Pay participating store is always going to get my business over the nonparticipating. I don't want my cards replaced ever again for "suspected compromises". Twice in about a year was enough.
Not having to do anything else would be more convenient but, as
Macky the Macky states, having to use Touch ID (or a device passcode) to authenticate the transaction is where the initial security comes into play. This is a great trade off, and while Apple Pay will work without Touch ID, the convenience of Touch ID along with Apple Pay is a huge bonus.
Note that the Apple Pay pay options will only come up when the NFC radio in your device picks up another NFC radio, which is another way this is secure this near-field communication creates a very small local loop. Then of course there is the massive and brilliant changes that have the card data stored on the device to not be the same as the physical card you used to input it into the Wallet app for Apple Pay thus keeping that physical card safe, even if a MITM attack could somehow steal that representational card number and reverse engineer the tokening system used on your device with your bank. EMV is a great jump in security but it's still a physical card whose primary security feature will be the inclusion of a PIN for transactions over a certain amount, which really puts it on par with old timey ATM cards.
Can you check the last four on your receipt to the last 4 shown in Wallet for your card on the Device Account Number line. This is just below the Card Number line. The card number is the physical card's number, but the Device Account Number is your representational card number that is essentially an alias on your bank's servers. My guess is that they match up since that '************1234' on the receipt is so the customer can also keep track of which card was used.