I read them before as well and while basically I have nothing against using irony, cynicism, provocation and similar to emphasize the point you're trying to make (VNV Nation's Cold Rated R Mix; Totmacher by Wumpscut, LætherStrip's many songs etc.) this is just to me the overall "everything is bad and where have to the good times gone" complaint, and this particular line to me feel like lacking deeper sense. But maybe youth of today needs such language so that even something arrives...
Then one thing, however, that gives me a hard time in finding a "real message" is that to my knowledge there was never a true "conversion" from "Saulus to paulus" in the sense that he regretted some of the lesser cool things from his past. No cred, pity.
There are a number of references there I don
Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35
So you think all media that references violence against women should not be on Apple iTunes?
So Apple should remove The Help, Fried Green Tomatoes, Roots, Goodfather, Cider House rules, Gone with the Wind ect from iTunes?
I don't listen to rap music but lets not hold two standards for music and for movies.
If you don't realize it Dr Dre is simply playing a role in his songs. Like how an actor can play a role of being a violent man who beats his wife. That does not mean he's a wife beater in real life. So if Tom Hanks played a wife beater in a movie that would make him unfit to be an Apple executive? Really? You need to learn to seperate reality from fiction.
There's violence against women and then there's "I even make the women I rape cum" - as if it's an every-day occurrence as often as one crosses the street, without any nuance of regret, on the contrary it reads as though he's doing them a favour. I suppose he was being respectful in that he didn't refer to those he rapes as bitches.
I'm not alluding to people playing characters, that is quite plain, or it ought to have been. I'm referring to the imagery of lyrics, the imagery in this context of what Apple executives say (or it seems it may be Eminem's lyrics promoted on a Dr Dre - Apple Executive - album).
Tom Hanks reading and acting a script is quite another matter from Tom Hanks writing a script whose imagery promotes rape almost as a non-event
Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35
So you think all media that references violence against women should not be on Apple iTunes?
So Apple should remove The Help, Fried Green Tomatoes, Roots, Goodfather, Cider House rules, Gone with the Wind ect from iTunes?
I don't listen to rap music but lets not hold two standards for music and for movies.
If you don't realize it Dr Dre is simply playing a role in his songs. Like how an actor can play a role of being a violent man who beats his wife. That does not mean he's a wife beater in real life. So if Tom Hanks played a wife beater in a movie that would make him unfit to be an Apple executive? Really? You need to learn to seperate reality from fiction.
There's violence against women and then there's "I even make the women I rape cum" - as if it's normal behaviour, an every-day occurrence as often as one crosses the street, without any nuance of regret, on the contrary it reads as though he's doing the women a favour.
While what is appropriate behaviour is in the eye of the beholder (there are people who think lines like that are fine, Eminem is just being harmlessly, mischievously provocative, and they know they're not meant to be taken seriously - as if to inspire); Apple Inc should have eyes too - and guidelines of behaviour in accordance with the image of high standards of delivery of their products and services. I can't see how these lyrics promoted by Dr Dre could be in accordance with any code of conduct standards, or gender-respect standards, Apple may have for its employees.
So we encroach upon the subject of free speech. And let this speech be written, and let people read it, absolutely. My point is that Apple Computer should choose not to have officers who promote it. There's a material difference between the tones of the images of gyrating hips, long hair, calling for anarchy, promoting gun ownership and "I even make the women I rape cum".
I think you might underestimate the power of a role elevated to a role model for followers.
But doing it for the green seems to justify all kind of what usually would be referred to a misbehavior.
People tend to not think about the consequences of their behavior (, or are not consequent).
And everyone can make his own choice about what you like, or dislike. And as an artist what your lyrics are, and what not.
The question of "crossing the line" is no objective one, I suppose. For some the use of "f*ck" is not appropriate, for others, the lyrics above cross the line, and then again for others they are possibly fun and harmless.
Again, everyone has to decide for himself, what "rol" (s)he plays, what "image" and values (s)he wishes to convey.
Personally, I do not think you can pinpoint to someone committing rape or similar exclusively due to the lyrics of the songs. Like artists, also consumers have to take their decisions themselves. However, r<span style="line-height:1.4em;">ich or not, changed, or not, being a role playing Platon, or not, I would not appreciate someone playing/being such a "role" in my house, or near my family, thank you.</span>
So if Tom Hanks plays a role of a wife beater you won't watch any of his other movies?
Dr Dre is playing a role in his songs. The role of a hopeless and frustrated black man. Why is this so hard to understand?
Bruno Ganz played the role of Hitler in a movie. Does that mean Bruno Ganz is not a good role model?
Do you think what Hitler did was just as bad or worse than what the Dre song is saying?
So are we going to remove all movies that have Hitler in it?
The Disney CEO is on the Apple board. Do you want him to resign because some of the Disney movies (and related entities) show violence? Give me a break.
Dre song is about the dark realities in some scary areas in the USA. Those things are happening daily. It is sad, horrible, and evil. But it is the truth. Does that mean Dre/Emminim does those things? Hell no. They are telling a story, what its like living in those places. But you wouldn't understand if you didn't live the life.
And by the way Dre isn't an Executive. He is a senior employee.
No double standard. I would find Nazi propaganda stating "We even make the women we rape cum" - making light of violent demeaning attacks - just as despicable. Of course I wouldn't want to prevent anyone from reading what actually happened and learning the truth. But If I were a Party leader I wouldn't want to have any character writing or promoting such material for Party publications, or his own publications, while remaining formally associated with the Party - even if it were a mischievous provocative gag that no one, in their right mind, should take seriously. I'd say that it was inconsistent with the Party image and disposition and, on those grounds, might withdraw his membership.
Anyway, I'm pleased we've had this forum to discuss this openly. I'm now writing in circles, over to you for a last point if you wish.
But we're willing to call someone who stole from his best friend, frequently accosted his subordinates, threw temper tantrums when he didn't get his way, ran out on his illegitimate child, and refused medical advice which basically cost him his life a "legend." At least Dre owns his bad behavior.
You should read more about what the Russian soliders did to German women in WW2. And even American soilders.
The truth hurts and is ugly. That is true with what happenned in WW2 and what happens in the inner city slums that Dre is talking about.
I think this is less about a pissing contest who did worse things, but more about whether Dre has a real and credible message he wants to convey. From what I see (which is admittedly not the most) I fail to see how he distances himself from what he "criticises" in his work. It seems more that he indulges himself in the image of being a "bad boy" himself.
I believe that line is from Eminem, he is singing it and likely wrote it.
It's definitely Eminem. When I first heard the line it caught me by surprise. I rewound it to make sure I heard correctly. Don't like that sort of talk, but wanted to clarify that it is indeed Eminem who said this.
For all you self-righteous, ignorant, and "all hip-hop is bad, stupid, and violent and not music" thinkers... and want to point out mistakes Dre made when in his early 20's (not making excuses, but he paid for his crime and moved on -- we all get second chances) and if you have to go back 20+ years to find something negative to type then that means he's done pretty good in his life.
Rock/country stars who were arrested for domestic violence, drugs, and other crimes:
Stoney LaRue (country, domestic violence)
Rodney Atkins (country, domestic violence)
Johnny Cash (country, drugs)
Randy Travis (country, DWI - arrested nude)
Tommy Lee (rock, domestic abuse)
Ozzy Osbourne (rock, domestic abuse against his wife)
Pete Townshend (rock, pedophilia/child porn)
Deen Castronovo (rock, domestic violence)
Sid Vicious (rock, murder)
Phil Spector (rock, murder)
Phil Rudd (rock, hired a hit-man for murder)
etc., etc., etc.
Ignorance, crime, hate, arrest, murder, drugs, domestic violence, and much more comes in ALL skin colors and ethnicity's.
Yes, donating all his profits to build a Performing Arts Center in Compton
Quote:
Originally Posted by sog35
But that's the rap game. You need to play a character role. A clean cut guy won't do well in rap.
Hmmm... rapper Fresh Prince (Will Smith) made and lost a million+ before he started acting. LL Cool J was never a so-called gangsta rapper and he made millions, De La Soul, Quest, Common, Run-DMC, and many many more had/have very successful careers as "clean" rappers.
We are talking about emminem here. You seriously think he can play the clean cut role?
Oh, sorry, I didn't read all the comments. Nooooo... there is zero clean about Em. Maybe recently as he's now older, more calm and mature, but his early days were extreme to the extreme.
Yes, donating all his profits to build a Performing Arts Center in Compton
Hmmm... rapper Fresh Prince (Will Smith) made and lost a million+ before he started acting. LL Cool J was never a so-called gangsta rapper and he made millions, De La Soul, Quest, Common, Run-DMC, and many many more had/have very successful careers as "clean" rappers.
Will Smith made and lost million before he starred in "The Fresh Prince of Belair" in september 1990? Really? I've been following him since 1988 and never heard that one.... Considering he only made one million only by late 1988 at the earliest and had money still rolling into 1989 from that first album by the time he was approached to get his own show in late 1989 and the pilot for Fresh Prince was shot in may 1990, that's seems like an unlikely motivation. He had his biggest hits after 1990, both with his original group and solo.
His big break in films came in 1993 in 6 degree of separation, but what made him a star was independence day in 1996. Both those films were shot while in was still doing Fresh Prince 1990-1996.
Comments
He has a son?
Well... decide for yourself ;-)
http://desmotivaciones.es/5551933/Parecidos-razonables-97
Other than that:
I'm partial to Melanie Iglesias, but maybe because she's a distant cousin of mine, and no I can't introduce you because I've never met her.
I assume, a very distant one.
He does much better when he sticks with singing in Spanish.
I read them before as well and while basically I have nothing against using irony, cynicism, provocation and similar to emphasize the point you're trying to make (VNV Nation's Cold Rated R Mix; Totmacher by Wumpscut, LætherStrip's many songs etc.) this is just to me the overall "everything is bad and where have to the good times gone" complaint, and this particular line to me feel like lacking deeper sense. But maybe youth of today needs such language so that even something arrives...
Then one thing, however, that gives me a hard time in finding a "real message" is that to my knowledge there was never a true "conversion" from "Saulus to paulus" in the sense that he regretted some of the lesser cool things from his past. No cred, pity.
There are a number of references there I don
So you think all media that references violence against women should not be on Apple iTunes?
So Apple should remove The Help, Fried Green Tomatoes, Roots, Goodfather, Cider House rules, Gone with the Wind ect from iTunes?
I don't listen to rap music but lets not hold two standards for music and for movies.
If you don't realize it Dr Dre is simply playing a role in his songs. Like how an actor can play a role of being a violent man who beats his wife. That does not mean he's a wife beater in real life. So if Tom Hanks played a wife beater in a movie that would make him unfit to be an Apple executive? Really? You need to learn to seperate reality from fiction.
There's violence against women and then there's "I even make the women I rape cum" - as if it's an every-day occurrence as often as one crosses the street, without any nuance of regret, on the contrary it reads as though he's doing them a favour. I suppose he was being respectful in that he didn't refer to those he rapes as bitches.
I'm not alluding to people playing characters, that is quite plain, or it ought to have been. I'm referring to the imagery of lyrics, the imagery in this context of what Apple executives say (or it seems it may be Eminem's lyrics promoted on a Dr Dre - Apple Executive - album).
Tom Hanks reading and acting a script is quite another matter from Tom Hanks writing a script whose imagery promotes rape almost as a non-event
So you think all media that references violence against women should not be on Apple iTunes?
So Apple should remove The Help, Fried Green Tomatoes, Roots, Goodfather, Cider House rules, Gone with the Wind ect from iTunes?
I don't listen to rap music but lets not hold two standards for music and for movies.
If you don't realize it Dr Dre is simply playing a role in his songs. Like how an actor can play a role of being a violent man who beats his wife. That does not mean he's a wife beater in real life. So if Tom Hanks played a wife beater in a movie that would make him unfit to be an Apple executive? Really? You need to learn to seperate reality from fiction.
There's violence against women and then there's "I even make the women I rape cum" - as if it's normal behaviour, an every-day occurrence as often as one crosses the street, without any nuance of regret, on the contrary it reads as though he's doing the women a favour.
While what is appropriate behaviour is in the eye of the beholder (there are people who think lines like that are fine, Eminem is just being harmlessly, mischievously provocative, and they know they're not meant to be taken seriously - as if to inspire); Apple Inc should have eyes too - and guidelines of behaviour in accordance with the image of high standards of delivery of their products and services. I can't see how these lyrics promoted by Dr Dre could be in accordance with any code of conduct standards, or gender-respect standards, Apple may have for its employees.
So we encroach upon the subject of free speech. And let this speech be written, and let people read it, absolutely. My point is that Apple Computer should choose not to have officers who promote it. There's a material difference between the tones of the images of gyrating hips, long hair, calling for anarchy, promoting gun ownership and "I even make the women I rape cum".
It's simply poetic license.
Again you are holding a double standard.
Do you think what Hitler did was just as bad or worse than what the Dre song is saying?
So are we going to remove all movies that have Hitler in it?
The Disney CEO is on the Apple board. Do you want him to resign because some of the Disney movies (and related entities) show violence? Give me a break.
Dre song is about the dark realities in some scary areas in the USA. Those things are happening daily. It is sad, horrible, and evil. But it is the truth. Does that mean Dre/Emminim does those things? Hell no. They are telling a story, what its like living in those places. But you wouldn't understand if you didn't live the life.
And by the way Dre isn't an Executive. He is a senior employee.
Here are the executives at Apple:
https://www.apple.com/pr/bios/
With respect, you aren't quite getting my point.
No double standard. I would find Nazi propaganda stating "We even make the women we rape cum" - making light of violent demeaning attacks - just as despicable. Of course I wouldn't want to prevent anyone from reading what actually happened and learning the truth. But If I were a Party leader I wouldn't want to have any character writing or promoting such material for Party publications, or his own publications, while remaining formally associated with the Party - even if it were a mischievous provocative gag that no one, in their right mind, should take seriously. I'd say that it was inconsistent with the Party image and disposition and, on those grounds, might withdraw his membership.
Anyway, I'm pleased we've had this forum to discuss this openly. I'm now writing in circles, over to you for a last point if you wish.
Does she sing or just look good?
But we're willing to call someone who stole from his best friend, frequently accosted his subordinates, threw temper tantrums when he didn't get his way, ran out on his illegitimate child, and refused medical advice which basically cost him his life a "legend." At least Dre owns his bad behavior.
I thought those were Eminem's lines in the song, not Dre's?
but Eminem doesn't count.
She's a model. She comes out on a show called Guy Code on MTV
You should read more about what the Russian soliders did to German women in WW2. And even American soilders.
The truth hurts and is ugly. That is true with what happenned in WW2 and what happens in the inner city slums that Dre is talking about.
I think this is less about a pissing contest who did worse things, but more about whether Dre has a real and credible message he wants to convey. From what I see (which is admittedly not the most) I fail to see how he distances himself from what he "criticises" in his work. It seems more that he indulges himself in the image of being a "bad boy" himself.
It's definitely Eminem. When I first heard the line it caught me by surprise. I rewound it to make sure I heard correctly. Don't like that sort of talk, but wanted to clarify that it is indeed Eminem who said this.
For all you self-righteous, ignorant, and "all hip-hop is bad, stupid, and violent and not music" thinkers... and want to point out mistakes Dre made when in his early 20's (not making excuses, but he paid for his crime and moved on -- we all get second chances) and if you have to go back 20+ years to find something negative to type then that means he's done pretty good in his life.
Rock/country stars who were arrested for domestic violence, drugs, and other crimes:
Ignorance, crime, hate, arrest, murder, drugs, domestic violence, and much more comes in ALL skin colors and ethnicity's.
Isn't he giving the money to charity?
Yes, donating all his profits to build a Performing Arts Center in Compton
But that's the rap game. You need to play a character role. A clean cut guy won't do well in rap.
Hmmm... rapper Fresh Prince (Will Smith) made and lost a million+ before he started acting. LL Cool J was never a so-called gangsta rapper and he made millions, De La Soul, Quest, Common, Run-DMC, and many many more had/have very successful careers as "clean" rappers.
We are talking about emminem here. You seriously think he can play the clean cut role?
Oh, sorry, I didn't read all the comments. Nooooo... there is zero clean about Em. Maybe recently as he's now older, more calm and mature, but his early days were extreme to the extreme.
Wow, so much interest in this ghetto music
Wow, so much interest in this ghetto music
You must have been hiding under a rock with a violin stuck up your ass for the past 35 years, haven't you.
Yes, donating all his profits to build a Performing Arts Center in Compton
Hmmm... rapper Fresh Prince (Will Smith) made and lost a million+ before he started acting. LL Cool J was never a so-called gangsta rapper and he made millions, De La Soul, Quest, Common, Run-DMC, and many many more had/have very successful careers as "clean" rappers.
Will Smith made and lost million before he starred in "The Fresh Prince of Belair" in september 1990? Really? I've been following him since 1988 and never heard that one.... Considering he only made one million only by late 1988 at the earliest and had money still rolling into 1989 from that first album by the time he was approached to get his own show in late 1989 and the pilot for Fresh Prince was shot in may 1990, that's seems like an unlikely motivation. He had his biggest hits after 1990, both with his original group and solo.
His big break in films came in 1993 in 6 degree of separation, but what made him a star was independence day in 1996. Both those films were shot while in was still doing Fresh Prince 1990-1996.