paying full price for jaguar sucks

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  • Reply 101 of 139
    jimmacjimmac Posts: 11,898member
    Something funny happened at the University where I work. The guy in the bookstore sent me an email asking me if I was interested in Jaguar for $19.95! Now I don't know what this means. Maybe he's mistaken and is going to catch a a lot of flak for this or maybe there is an upgrade version floating around out there after all.



    I've been having trouble with my computer lately in that when asked to shut down or restart in 9 it does it normally but in X ( 10.1.5 ) the infamous colored ball just spins on the shut down blue screen. I've tried everything but nothing seems to help. If I use the restart button after restarting it shuts down normally ( until I use a internet app ) so go figure. I'm hoping running the installer from a full version will cure it and keep me from wiping the drive. Everything else is normal. So I'm getting the full version anyway ( the last full version I have is 10.0 ).



    So if this is true that we will have access to a less expensive upgrade version it would stop a lot of complaining.



    If I hear anymore I'll let you guys know.



    [ 07-21-2002: Message edited by: jimmac ]</p>
  • Reply 102 of 139
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    It's possible your university has a campus license of some sort with Apple. Here at UNC, we can get Microsoft Office v.X, the full version, for $10. (No Apple license agreement, durnit.)
  • Reply 103 of 139
    imaximax Posts: 43member
    I just bought an iBook this week at the Apple Store. They said to save my receipt and when Jag ships I'll get it for $19.99. He also said once it ships it will be the default OS on all the new machines.
  • Reply 104 of 139
    aquaticaquatic Posts: 5,602member
    Barto, Crawling Paranoia, you're wrong.



    There are small, medium, and large upgrades (would you like fries with that? )



    x.x.x are small. x.x are medium. x are large.



    Did you pay $129 to upgrade to MacOS 8.5 from MacOS 8.1. That's what I thought. This should be $129 ($99) to new users. FREE for current users. Free at the Apple store at least, and screw people on shipping if need be. I just bought an iBook. I'm not paying that much. It's not fair.



    OS 8.5 was not $129.



    Can we copy Jaguar and is there any security (like "CheckForOSX" file?) Plus, if there is security how do we make boot discs?
  • Reply 105 of 139
    fran441fran441 Posts: 3,715member
    Here's the way I see it (and I know most people here see just the opposite).



    When I bought my PowerBook G3/500, it was top of the line and cost me over $3000. In fact, with Airport, it cost me close to $4000.



    That's $4,000 of computing power that's now 2.5 years old. It still stacks up pretty well with the exception of the video card.



    I know most people manage to scrape just enough money to pay for their computer and think that the software should just be provided to them considering they spent so much on the hardware.



    The way I see it is, I paid $4000 for my computer and I'm complaining about spending $50 to keep my email? I paid $4000 for my computer and I'm complaining about spending $129 to keep it up to date with the latest OS?



    I choose to use the services, just as I chose to buy my PowerBook in the first place. I guess if you want the best, you have to pay for it.



    It's almost like spending all of your money on the car but not wanting to pay to gas it up or get it washed. I find it very ironic that people will shell out $35,000+ on a car and then complain when the price of gas goes up 5 cents.



    Edit: Plus, you can pretend it's a 'free upgrade' with Apple's astronomical $129 shipping and handling fee.



    [ 07-22-2002: Message edited by: Fran441 ]</p>
  • Reply 106 of 139
    [quote]Something funny happened at the University where I work. The guy in the bookstore sent me an email asking me if I was interested in Jaguar for $19.95! Now I don't know what this means. Maybe he's mistaken and is going to catch a a lot of flak for this or maybe there is an upgrade version floating around out there after all. <hr></blockquote>



    There's also the possibility you're getting ripped off. I wonder how many in this thread were planning to pirate it as they did 10.0.0 (or later) in the first place?



    After all, there do appear to be a number of builds floating around and the authors reporting on them would appear to be in violation of any NDA I've ever seen.



    OTOH, just picking on you at random, and not specifically, you could choose not to pay the $20.00 if you think you're entitled to it free, for example. This would be a similar option to those who object to paying $129.00 (or don't mind paying a lesser amount based on some arbitrary amount of their own invention.)



    And there are of course some people who are disappointed because they like to think of Steve Jobs as "Uncle Stevo" and have been laboring under the impression that Apple Computer, Inc., a large corporation, is their "buddy."



    I suspect the fact that "they will never get over the hurt or being let down or the disappointment" that is doubtless keeping Uncle Stevo awake at nights.
  • Reply 107 of 139
    kedakeda Posts: 722member
    Several people I know have bought 10.1 w/in the past 6mos ($130). Another guy has switched from a PC to a Mac w/in the last 1.5 mos. None of these people qualify for 'Up-to-Date.'



    None of these people are 'whiners', 'cry-babies', 'spoiled teenagers', or any of the other insulting stereotypes which the pro-Apple folks have chosen to label people who don't like the pricing scheme (geez, why would anyone have a bad view of Mac users). They are all pros who work in the graphic industry and, (with the exception of the switcher) have been long time Mac users...and they are not happy.



    Apple is telling them that in order to keep their expensive HW current, they will have to fork over another $130, shortly after spending the first $130. I am having a really hard time understanding why certain people are vehemently defending this. If Adobe, Macromedia, or MicroSoft charged full price for back-to-back upgrades, these boards would crash under the weight of people condemning these companies.



    I have posted threads on Apples boards (which were quickly deleted) and commented a few times here. Each time, there is a chorus of diligent defenders towing the, formerly rainbow, corporate line. Each time, people point out the development cost. Each time, someone quickly jumps onto the 'whiner' bandwagon and begins to call me names because I think Apple is in the wrong (one guy told me to 'wake up' and said 'I don't get it'...HA).



    I wish I had an appealing option besides the Mac. Because of their embattled position in the market, Apple has been evangelized by its users. We have stuck by them when the rest of the world claimed they were going bust. But I don't think they are worth of this blind faith anymore. Apple has changed. Now the Mac community needs to change.



    We don't need to threaten to sell our Macs and buy PCs, but we need to take a more critical view of our favorite fruit company. We need to treat Apple like we would any other company, not just accept whatever they give us as we fill our lungs w/the succulent aroma of the RDF.



    Apple should have an upgrade policy, period. It is standard procedure or every other SW company out there, and particularly pertinent in this situation. If .x upgrades are major ones (ie worthy of a charge) and .x.x are minor fixes, then this is the second major release Apple has done this year. Apple's extremely short turnaround between 10.1 and 10.2 should also be taken into consideration here. At the very least, Apple should extend an offer to those who bought 10.1 for full price.



    BTW, I don't fall into this category. I've been on-board since PB and got a free update to 10.1. I don't have a big problem w/paying full price.
  • Reply 108 of 139
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,358member
    [quote] None of these people are 'whiners', 'cry-babies', 'spoiled teenagers', or any of the other insulting stereotypes which the pro-Apple folks have chosen to label people who don't like the pricing scheme (geez, why would anyone have a bad view of Mac users). They are all pros who work in the graphic industry and, (with the exception of the switcher) have been long time Mac users...and they are not happy. <hr></blockquote>



    There's a difference between being "not happy" and spamming messageboards with a zillion threads denigrating Apple for being a Business.



    [quote] Apple is telling them that in order to keep their expensive HW current, they will have to fork over another $130, shortly after spending the first $130. I am having a really hard time understanding why certain people are vehemently defending this. If Adobe, Macromedia, or MicroSoft charged full price for back-to-back upgrades, these boards would crash under the weight of people condemning these companies. <hr></blockquote>



    Some of us defend it because it's not Apple's fault your friends bought late in the OS cycle. They have put in alot of work and many of us think they should be rewarded. If that means that some users choose to wait to purchase Jaguar sobeit. I do see their point and I empathize but I've seen far more egregious examples of people getting shafted.



    [quote] I wish I had an appealing option besides the Mac. Because of their embattled position in the market, Apple has been evangelized by its users. We have stuck by them when the rest of the world claimed they were going bust. But I don't think they are worth of this blind faith anymore. Apple has changed. Now the Mac community needs to change. <hr></blockquote>



    Funny how peoples "faith" get's shaken by a mere $130. Apple never asked anyone to evangelize their products..those people did so of their own volition. If you must ...vote with you dollar. Leave the platform. The choice is yours and it's a private one. Why people feel the need to publicize this is beyond me.



    Keda I think things will be fine once the industry settles. It's still been rocky. One of Jobs' problems is that he has grandiose plans that don't always make good financial sense.



    We all have an expensive hobby called Computers. At any given rate the memory you buy for $140 like I did could drop to $30 in a matter of months like it did to me



    But I looked at this as a hidden benefit. It meant that my next ram purchase was going to be much cheaper. Remember the IIVX? Remember how it dropped $1000 overnight and Apple refused to refund money to recent purchases. Compare that situation with Jaguar and you tell me what's fair?



    Honestly I've seen people easily spend $8 bucks a day on Latte's or spend $6 on a pack of cigarettes. To hear some people talk they litterally have not a quarter to spend LOL. If I had purchased 10.1 I would either fork out the $130 and be pissed or I'd wait until the next small revision hits the CD and purchase then. This really is great...Jaguar has peope wanting it so bad that they're up in arms...and that means success for Apple..and us in the long term.
  • Reply 109 of 139
    kedakeda Posts: 722member
    [quote] Some of us defend it because it's not Apple's fault your friends bought late in the OS cycle. <hr></blockquote>



    What does this mean? We are not talking about milk here, there is no expiration date on the box. These people walked into an Apple Store and bought the available version of OSX. Less than 6 months later, Apple is asking them to pay the same amount again and giving them no recourse. This might be a good way to make a buck, but it is horrible customer relations.



    A few months after I bought my production bundle from Adobe, they released new versions of some of the titles. Without hesitation, they allowed me to upgrade my SW at a very reduced price. But, it wasn't their fault I bought late in the SW cycle.



    These friends of mine are 'normal' Mac users. They aren't super technical and they don't frequent these forums, but they have certain expectations from a vendor. Its is status quo in this industry to expect an upgrade price if the original package was recently bought. Buying late in the cycle should increase the likely hood that a discount will be offered. It's not my friends fault that Apple releases new versions so quickly.



    [quote] Funny how peoples "faith" get's shaken by a mere $130. &lt;snip&gt; Leave the platform.<hr></blockquote>



    I'm not about to leave the platform (nor did I threaten to). The only real alternative is Windoze and I don't want to go there. But this is the problem. With almost anything else, I could 'vote with my dollar.' But Apple is the only one that makes this product and my only option is to spend thousands of dollars to switch to PC...not realistic, even if I wanted to.



    Jaguar looks great. I will definitely be using it as soon as it comes out. Myself and everyone I was writting about can easily afford Jag. Its a matter of principle, not price. Back-to-back charges of $130, when every other company out there gives current users a break...just because there are more severe examples of a corporation 'shafting' their customer's doesn't make Apple right.



    [quote] The choice is yours and it's a private one. Why people feel the need to publicize this is beyond me.<hr></blockquote>



    This is a Mac discussion board. Makes sense to me.



    Posting about it <a href="http://bimmerforums.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=63"; target="_blank">here</a> wouldn't.
  • Reply 110 of 139
    I completely agree with Keda. About two months ago, I purchased the Ultimate Powerbook and I also purchased quite a bit of software along with it.



    So, I can easily afford the new OS, but my concern is what will Apple think I should pay for next?



    For example, the iTools web pages are pretty damn trivial to build and the fact that you got them free with your Mac seemed to be a nice little bonus. Thankfully, I learned long ago to not allow an outside company to handle my email and webpages and I wisely avoided using iTools. I feel sorry for those who have everything tied to their .mac email address because it's a huge PITA to change email addresses. Apple just decided to rape their customer base for $100/year.



    Now, it appears to me that Apple wishes to screw the rest of their customer base for about $130 every six months.



    Now, I wouldn't mind paying a one-time full-price upgrade fee, if I knew it would be just that. But, I certainly didn't expect that buying a Mac meant that I was also getting involved into a subscription service.



    You say, "gee you don't have to upgrade..." We all know that is a fallacy as Apple is going to quickly release software that will only work on 10.2. That will basically ensure that everybody upgrades.



    You may say, "upgrades won't be that frequent." Think again. Look at how often Red Hat comes out with new versions. The simple fact is now that Apple is building on top of a Unix distribution, most of the coding and upgrade work is being done in the public domain. For example, one big speed improvement in Jaguar comes from using gcc 3.0. Do you think that Apple built gcc? No, somebody else built it and all Apple had to do was recompile applications.



    Apple should easily be able to release new OS's about every six months to a year. And, it should be trivial to produce software that depends on the latest update.



    Again, I don't mind paying for upgrades (well, actually I mind paying Apple for them when somebody else is doing the work), but I do mind paying full price and only getting 10-20% of the code. I consider going from 10.1.5 to 10.2 has an upgrade of about 10-20% of the system. Whatever the real percentage is, it's certainly less than someone going from 9.2 to 10.2.
  • Reply 111 of 139
    akacakac Posts: 512member
    10.2 is hardly a minor upgrade. Its hardly only 10-20% changes from 10.1.5.



    Lets see...



    New BSD system. OK, that's about 200MB of your 600MB OS X install. Major changes there in the kernel, etc...



    New printing system.



    New Quartz Compositor.



    New Finder that's 10x faster, supports FTP, windows SMB clients better, more view options, and the list goes on.



    New base system technologies that translate into small user apps - LDAP/Address Book; Rendezvous, Inkwell, Universal Access, and others



    Rewritten core apps: Preview, Calculator, dev studio, and more



    Scanner support; Bluetooth support native, smart card support, etc...



    ODBC, Airport software base station, USB printer sharing, VPN, IPSec, etc...





    This is NOT a minor upgrade. What it is is that with OS 7-9 (which all could've been called 7.x's really), Apple bumped up the OS version numbers quickly. They want to keep OS X numbers for awhile. So any 10.x release will be a major release. Minor releases will be 10.x.y with the y being the minor release.



    10.2 is as big a jump - or bigger - than Windows 2000 to Windows XP Pro was.
  • Reply 112 of 139
    [quote]Originally posted by Keda

    None of these people are 'whiners', 'cry-babies', 'spoiled teenagers', or any of the other insulting stereotypes which the pro-Apple folks have chosen to label people who don't like the pricing scheme (geez, why would anyone have a bad view of Mac users). They are all pros who work in the graphic industry and, (with the exception of the switcher) have been long time Mac users...and they are not happy.<hr></blockquote>



    Would you settle for being poorly informed?



    <a href="http://www.apple.com/macosx/jaguar/morefeatures.html"; target="_blank">http://www.apple.com/macosx/jaguar/morefeatures.html</a>;
  • Reply 113 of 139
    kedakeda Posts: 722member
    It looks like Brian is in a similar situation to my friends. He has recently made a significant purchase of Apple HW (which, by extension, includes SW) and Apple is charging him full price. Not only is it wrong, its just bad business.



    [quote] Would you settle for being poorly informed? <hr></blockquote>



    Sorry, I don't fit in there either. I know 10.2 is a kick-ass upgrade. If it wouldn't open such a can of worms, I might go so far as to say Jag is what OSX should have been from day 1. But, I wont go there.



    Yes, this is a Major F'n Upgrade® and $130 is a fair price for it. My point is that there are many people who are being forced to pay full price when they have bought 10.1 (or HW) w/in the last few months. This is wrong and completely non-standard in the SW industry.



    One of the worst things about this situation is that you are putting a bad taste in the mouths of people who may be new to the platform. I mentioned my friend who is a 'switcher' (this might have meant something completely different a few months ago). He went from XP to a dual-gig PM and an iPod.



    His first iPod crapped out after 2 days, so he brought it back. Then the second one died that night. Now that he is on his 3rd iPod, Apple tells him that he will have to pay $130 to upgrade a machine that is 1.5mos old. This is embarrassing. He is pissed at Apple and when he tells me about it, I can do nothing but agree.



    Apple has put alot of development time into 10.2. But they could still recoup the costs if they extended some kind of discount (say $80 to upgrade) to people who have bought 10.1 or HW w/in the last 3 months (I'd like 6 months better but 3 would be sufficient). This way, Apple would make $$ and have better customer relations. Instead, they are causing alot of resentment in their customer base. Before Apple erased all the threads, there were many people complaining about this same thing on Apple's boards.



    As I said b4, even by my own standards I would be paying full price for Jag. I don't have any good reason not to since I bought 10.0 when it came out. But I am a long time Mac user as well. I wonder how many of the switchers will decide that their noble experiment was not worth the trouble if they are going to trade one monopoly for another.
  • Reply 114 of 139
    eddieeddie Posts: 9member
    What would it take for me to buy Jaguar?



    1. The return of the Apple menu--or if Apple put 2 and 2 together they'd simply make a "Favorites" menu. All the save dialogs already have the "Add to Favorites" command. Not even OS 9 had an "Add to Apple menu" command. I want my menu bar to have "Apple," "Application," "File," "Edit," "View," "Favorites," "Window," "Help."



    2. Tear-off menus. They were in Mac OS X Server, but not in Mac OS X. Perhaps this has something to do with the integration of Carbon apps, but it would sure be sweet.



    3. Performance that is on par with OS 9 on my G3 iBook. I have a 600 MHz G3, and it was purchased in December. I want it to perform fast as I expect a 600 MHz processor to.



    4. A registered version of QuickTime Pro. Mac OS 8.5 did (or was it OS 9?).



    5. A return of Labels. I loved these things, they let you set priorities for files in the system that were searchable in Sherlock. Very nice. This is metadata anyone can love.



    6. A fully Applescript-able Finder, and the ability to record scripts again. I can't do this in OS X, but I can in OS 9.



    7. Aggressive power management for iBooks. Spin down hard disks on command, save RAM contents to disk, five hours of battery life when doing basic word processing (I don't expect that kind of performance running DVD's).



    8. A user-modifiable System folder. Maintaining Classic Mac OS was easy: whenever there was a problem, one held down shift when starting up. Extensions and Control Panels could be removed easily without messing with permissions risking system instability, or using an uninstall program (the few that even exist). If there isn't an uninstall program provided, how is the user supposed to uninstall a file in the System folder on OS X? It just doesn't happen. I would like for system functions to be bundled in packages that can easily be drag & dropped in and out of the System folder. For example a "QuickTime" bundle would contain every QuickTime system file. You drag that one bundle out of the System folder and it's uninstalled.



    Geez where am i gonna find the $65 dollars to spend for the educational-discounted version of Jaguar? So much dinero for a student! I need that money for candy and dates with girls.

    ---

    Update after trying Jaguar...

    ---



    I tried out Jaguar at my local Apple Store (on a sweet 17" iMac!) and the new Find File is really sweet, and the Finder is much faster. Unfortunately the system doesn't feel much faster overall. Mind you I use OS 10.1 on an iBook most of my day and I was using a G4 iMac with 10.2 and it didn't feel all that zippy by comparison. It's still not as fast as OS 9 is. On another note, the spring-loaded folders are nice, but don't allow zero-delay (spacebar) spring-loading. And you still can't click-and-a-half browse (the other spring-loading function). To clarify: you can drag a file into a folder/disk and it will spring open, you can't click-and a half on a folder/disk and have it spring-load.



    Sherlock is nice, as is the new slide-show desktop picture feature. The applications are the only strong reasons to upgrade, the new Find File, and the Finder. Yeah I'll shell out the $65 for it. <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />



    [ 07-24-2002: Message edited by: eddie ]</p>
  • Reply 115 of 139
    [quote]Originally posted by Keda:

    Yes, this is a Major F'n Upgrade® and $130 is a fair price for it. My point is that there are many people who are being forced to pay full price when they have bought 10.1 (or HW) w/in the last few months. This is wrong and completely non-standard in the SW industry.



    One of the worst things about this situation is that you are putting a bad taste in the mouths of people who may be new to the platform. I mentioned my friend who is a 'switcher' (this might have meant something completely different a few months ago). He went from XP to a dual-gig PM and an iPod.



    His first iPod crapped out after 2 days, so he brought it back. Then the second one died that night. Now that he is on his 3rd iPod, Apple tells him that he will have to pay $130 to upgrade a machine that is 1.5mos old. This is embarrassing. He is pissed at Apple and when he tells me about it, I can do nothing but agree.<hr></blockquote>



    You're right to a point Keda, Apple *should* have some form of "upgrade" pricing beyond those who purchase computers after the Expo. The last 3 or 4 months or so at least should get a discount.



    That said, I *don't* think the general 10.1.x community should "expect" a "free" or even necessarily a "discount" upgrade to Jaguar. I don't think 130 is overly priced for what Jaguar offers. For those that don't agree, they can stick to 10.1.x. Nowhere in life can you "expect" things for free. Apple put a lot of time and money into Jaguar and rightfully should expect some returns on its hard work. Perhaps not on the backs of people who purchased a full version of 10.1 or new hardware in the last few months, but the rest of us can either pay or wait til get get new hardware, or when something we want needs Jaguar to upgrade.



    Either way, I think people are taking this and the .mac thing way to personally. Jaguar adds a lot of new features and software that people don't have to pay for and buy Jaguar if they don't want them. 10.1.x is a fully stable and usable OS for most things.
  • Reply 116 of 139
    jimmacjimmac Posts: 11,898member
    Whaaaaaaaa! Whaaaaaaaaa!



    Geezus!



    No matter when any of you bought ANYTHING there's a chance that you will have to buy something for it again. It might be a month from now it might be a year.



    When OS 9 came out and someone bought a computer and it didn't come with it I didn't hear this kind of pathetic whining. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
  • Reply 117 of 139
    buonrottobuonrotto Posts: 6,368member
    [quote]Originally posted by Steven R Wilson:

    <strong>



    You're right to a point Keda, Apple *should* have some form of "upgrade" pricing beyond those who purchase computers after the Expo. The last 3 or 4 months or so at least should get a discount.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    I think Apple should consider a discounted upgrade period of 90 days. That is, people who purchase a Mac within 90 days of a paid OS upgrade should receive the discount. As I'm writing this, I can see how that is just as arbitrary as the cutoff when they announce the upgrade. Unless Apple places their paid upgrade releases on a regular schedule, it's going to be like this.



    The difference with Jaguar is that a lot of people consider it as another getting-up-to-par release, which is a fair argument in some ways. It's not so much that Jaguar brings OS 9 parity, it really exceeds that benchmark. It's that 10.1.x was not quite the quality experience that previous Mac OS version had become, even if it is essentially a new beast. My experience with 10.1 has been just fine, but it still has its rough edges.



    Other than that, the upgrade structure for this major revision is par for the course.
  • Reply 118 of 139
    Akac, let's tackle your points in order...



    &gt; 10.2 is hardly a minor upgrade. Its hardly only 10-20% changes from 10.1.5.



    You are right. A lot of packages are being _upgraded_, but that is normal in the Unix packaging system. However, there's very few _new_ apps. For example, the kernel is being upgraded. Big deal, it's probably the same major version - it's an upgrade, not a brand new kernel.



    &gt; New BSD system. OK, that's about 200MB of your 600MB OS X install. Major changes there in the kernel, etc...



    It's an _upgrade_, not a completely new system. Perhaps you are upgrading from 9.2 and it is a new system for you. By the way, I don't feel like I should be paying Apple for upgrading the BSD system when they are basically basing it off the FreeBSD system and hence, somebody besides Apple is actually providing the code. All Apple is doing is bundling it up and selling it to the masses.



    &gt; New printing system.



    CUPS? It's provided free on linux. What makes you think I should pay for it just because Apple decided to start using it?



    &gt; New Quartz Compositor.



    This, I agree, could be major, and it is certainly a feature worth paying for. Did Apple do any of the work? Doubtful. If they have half a brain, they probably got the videocard manufacturers to do the nitty gritty stuff (after all, that's who provide the drives on Windows systems). Even if the videocard guys didn't provide the software, Apple can certainly look at the XFree86 code for guidance.



    &gt; New Finder that's 10x faster, supports FTP, windows SMB clients better, more view options, and the list goes on.



    You can call this a feature. I'd call it major bug fix as the Finder is close to useless in the current version.



    Many of the rest of the apps that you list (LDAP, VPN, IPSec, etc) have well-known public domain software for them. All Apple is doing is providing the code now.



    I get the feeling that a LOT of people in this newsgroup haven't used a Unix (or linux) based system before and they think that Apple is actually inventing this software. At best, Apple is porting it to the PowerPC architecture and most of that work should actually be fairly trivial (and, most of the hard work should have been done in 10.0)



    Now you may say that Apple wants to keep the OS X name for a while and try to rationalize that 10.2 is completely different that 10.1.5. Let me ask you, though... If the OS was completely different, do you really think that apps written for 10.1.5 would work on 10.2? I'll tell you. They wouldn't. It would be like trying to run 9.2 apps natively within OS X. It just simply wouldn't work. That should be your biggest tip-off that this is an upgrade.
  • Reply 119 of 139
    jeez, we already knew we were going to have to pay full price. i mentioned this in a thread a while ago. when they introed the xserve someone asked jobs that very question. "if someone buys an xserver today with 10.1, would they get an upgrade or have to buy 10.2 when it comes out in late summer?" steve looked him in the eye and said "you'd have to buy it." tough titties folks, what made anyone think it was going to be free or cheap anyway?
  • Reply 120 of 139
    kickahakickaha Posts: 8,760member
    [quote]Originally posted by Brian Paulsen:

    <strong>Akac, let's tackle your points in order...

    </strong><hr></blockquote>



    Indeed, let's.



    [quote]<strong>

    &gt; 10.2 is hardly a minor upgrade. Its hardly only 10-20% changes from 10.1.5.



    You are right. A lot of packages are being _upgraded_, but that is normal in the Unix packaging system. However, there's very few _new_ apps. </strong><hr></blockquote>



    iCal

    Address Book 2.0 (and before you say 'that's just an upgrade', it's a complete rewrite as an LDAP front end - only the name is the same)

    Bluetooth support

    iSync (SyncML? Sweet.)



    What, these apps aren't enough? Too trivial? Think like a Unix CLI user... each one does a specific job, and does it well, and is tightly integratable through Services, AppleScript, and such. Seems good so far.



    Add in the development frameworks:



    Rendevous (zeroconf)

    CUPS

    Bluetooth

    gcc3.1

    Ink

    Quartz Extreeeeeeeeeme (who the &&*([email protected] came up with that name, anyway?)

    ...and a few others I'm not at liberty to discuss



    So this isn't worth it for the apps these will spawn off? Hmmm.



    [quote]<strong>For example, the kernel is being upgraded. Big deal, it's probably the same major version - it's an upgrade, not a brand new kernel.

    </strong><hr></blockquote>



    Okey-dokey, we'll replace your Linux kernel with the X.0.0 version, and see if you notice. What? You do? But it's *just* an upgrade... big deal, right?



    Not to mention that it's all recompiled with gcc3.1 for some serious speed boosts, that the threading system has been seriously revamped, that it's been brought much more tightly in line with FreeBSD 4.4 for the enduser... naw, you're right. 'Big deal.'



    [quote]<strong>&gt; New BSD system. OK, that's about 200MB of your 600MB OS X install. Major changes there in the kernel, etc...



    It's an _upgrade_, not a completely new system. Perhaps you are upgrading from 9.2 and it is a new system for you. By the way, I don't feel like I should be paying Apple for upgrading the BSD system when they are basically basing it off the FreeBSD system and hence, somebody besides Apple is actually providing the code. </strong><hr></blockquote>



    Oh, well then, as a Linux guru, it should be absolutely trivial for you to go grab the code from the FreeBSD project, compile it, and install it, giving you 10.2 for free, right?



    Go ahead, we'll wait.



    Hint: it won't work. Why? Because it *needed development* before it was usable on a Mach kernel PPC system.



    [quote]<strong>All Apple is doing is bundling it up and selling it to the masses.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Not a member of gcc-dev or darwin-dev, I take it? The amount of work that Apple has done to get FreeBSD and gcc3 working *well* on PowerPC architectures is phenomenal. And, before you say it, yes, they *have* submitted the vast majority of the changes back to the open source projects, the clueless whiners on /. not withstanding.



    Apple is most certainly *NOT* just 'wrapping up' OSS code and reselling it. The OSS code gets them a leg up, you bet. It gets them incorporating standards the rest of the Unix world uses, and lets them tune it, submit patches, and generally be a pretty damned spectacular OSS player for a publicly traded corporation. For their own customers, they integrate it into a larger system in such a way as to make it *useful*.



    [quote]<strong>&gt; New printing system.



    CUPS? It's provided free on linux. What makes you think I should pay for it just because Apple decided to start using it?</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Then don't. Use Linux, if you're really concerned about saving every penny you can.



    I mean really, what would you be missing? Other than a nicely integrated system. I mean, all the *pieces* are there, so it *must* be equivalent, right?



    Or better yet, stick with MacOS X, but go grab CUPS, install it, and use it from all your favorite apps. Er, wait...



    [quote]<strong>&gt; New Quartz Compositor.



    This, I agree, could be major, and it is certainly a feature worth paying for. Did Apple do any of the work? Doubtful. </strong><hr></blockquote>



    Completely untrue.



    [quote]<strong>If they have half a brain, they probably got the videocard manufacturers to do the nitty gritty stuff (after all, that's who provide the drives on Windows systems). </strong><hr></blockquote>



    m-o-n-o-p-o-l-y



    MS drives the bus. The video card vendors have to do what they say, to get included in the OS, or risk having their cards *never* work. (Don't believe me? My friends at nVidia and a couple of game companies would disagree with you.)



    Apple is sitting in the rear seat, trying to flag down the vendors for attention.



    Now, not only that, but QC sits firmly between the Quartz layer, and OpenGL... which sits above the card drivers. Which part again did you want the card vendors to write? They're detached from the process.



    [quote]<strong>Even if the videocard guys didn't provide the software, Apple can certainly look at the XFree86 code for guidance.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    No, they can't. You're trying to tell me that XFree86 converts all rendered fields into alpha-blended textures and hands them off to OpenGL for post-processing? Don't confuse a transparent window with an infrastructure.



    [quote]<strong>&gt; New Finder that's 10x faster, supports FTP, windows SMB clients better, more view options, and the list goes on.



    You can call this a feature. I'd call it major bug fix as the Finder is close to useless in the current version.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Ah, rather like KDE, Gnome... to be honest, I haven't seen a free UI yet that was worth the bits it was written on.



    You find the current Finder useless. Fine. I don't. I find it klunky in some places, and irritating in others, but I still find it more useful than most other UIs out there.



    [quote]<strong>Many of the rest of the apps that you list (LDAP, VPN, IPSec, etc) have well-known public domain software for them. All Apple is doing is providing the code now.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Incorrect. See above.



    [quote]<strong>I get the feeling that a LOT of people in this newsgroup haven't used a Unix (or linux) based system before and they think that Apple is actually inventing this software. At best, Apple is porting it to the PowerPC architecture and most of that work should actually be fairly trivial (and, most of the hard work should have been done in 10.0)</strong><hr></blockquote>



    17 years of Unix programming and admin experience (on, hmmm... 7 platforms, 9 if you count two Linux distros), 16 years of Mac experience, finishing up my PhD in Computer Science. Informed enough?



    MacOS X, even 10.1, has been hands down the nicest, easiest to use, administer, and fix Unix distro I've ever encountered. It's also been the slickest development environment I've ever used for Unix coding. It's just that simple. That's why it is worth my money - because it saves me time. $129? That's about what... 2 hours of consulting fees? So if upgrading to 10.2 saves me *two lousy hours* over the course of, say, a year (until 10.3), then it pays for itself, yes?



    [quote]<strong>Now you may say that Apple wants to keep the OS X name for a while and try to rationalize that 10.2 is completely different that 10.1.5. Let me ask you, though... If the OS was completely different, do you really think that apps written for 10.1.5 would work on 10.2? I'll tell you. They wouldn't. </strong><hr></blockquote>



    Read up on bundles, and the framework selection system. Really. (Hint: They would.)



    X.Y.Z: Z = bug fix, Y = new features, X = 'completely different'. 10.2 *is* the appropriate number to be used here. Massive upgrading of the underlying infrastructure, new frameworks for developers to play with, new apps that use them. Definitely more than just a bug fix, not a complete revamping of the architecture. It's an X.Y release, and one generally pays for new features in the commercial world.



    [quote]<strong>It would be like trying to run 9.2 apps natively within OS X. It just simply wouldn't work. That should be your biggest tip-off that this is an upgrade.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    It's called backwards compatability. This is one Unix that has it. I'm really sorry Linux doesn't, but this is one of those 'useless' innovations you pay for.



    [ 07-23-2002: Message edited by: Kickaha ]</p>
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