Sorkin apologizes for remarks about Apple's Tim Cook, says both parties went too far

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  • Reply 101 of 147
    radarthekatradarthekat Posts: 3,577moderator
    flaneur wrote: »
    Yes, and the lesson is that the young megalomaniac who is going on to start a beneficial revolution will probably be that kind of person.

    He will run an enterprise focused on goals unimagined by others around him. He'll make terrible mistakes and hurt people right and left, but he'll also be able to attract and motivate people to do "the best work of their lives."

    He'll attract and hold geniuses, found an empire of intelligence to match their collective vision. Toward the people around him who are working on the vision, he'll be capable of generosity to match his earlier selfishness. It could be a law of character dynamics. Hard to say, since we get to see so few examples ot it working.

    As a kind of proof, consider how he attracted the brilliant designers that Apple has, and the brilliant operations people, or the software, PR or advertising people, and then try to imagine any of them, Jony Ive say, ever being able to found Apple 1 or 2 in a million years. And then try to imagine any of them sticking with a Bill Gates or a Steve Ballmer.

    It takes a village, as Hillary said, but it also takes a mad and magnanimous shaman to inspire and lead. Alex Gibney missed the part where the Buddhist monk has to whack the disciple with a bamboo stick to teach compassion.

    There are some who grok the situation, such as you, sir. And others who never will. Excellent post!
  • Reply 102 of 147
    flaneurflaneur Posts: 4,526member
    You know nothing of what you speak.

    Regarding yours and the seemingly never-ending comments about why Apple products aren't (or can't be) manufactured in the US, it's a matter of economics - macroeconomics. It's a matter of scale, workforce demographics, and global socio-economic forces at work here and even Apple with its $100+ billion in cash can't fight these things.

    The uninformed like to point out that Apple (and other multinational corps) is using "slave labor" to make mega-profits but then who isn't using cheap Asian manual labor? Also, the final assembly portion of building an iDevice makes up a small percentage of the overall cost. The main factor here is that virtually all of the components (from semiconductors to displays to PCB's to screws) that go into the iDevices a d every other electronic device are also fabricated and manufactured in Asia.

    The whole supply chain infrastructure for electronics manufacturing is already well-entrenched in Asia and has been so for a long, long time. All Apple could do in the US is import virtually every little part that goes in the iDevices from an army of suppliers in Asia and do menial assembly, cleaning and packing operations somewhere in the US. And where would that be?

    Apple would need tens or even hundreds of thousands of workers doing the most mind-numbingly boring and repetitive work for 10~12 hours a day (with overtime pay, of course). And these workers will need to move fast with machine-like precision and military-like discipline. Did you notice that virtually all the workers at Foxconn looked to be in their late-teens or early-20's? Do any of our graduating high school students seem like they'd be interested in working at an assembly plant like that? Surely, they'd prefer to flip burgers or sell basketball shoes at the local mall for some weekend party money.

    But even if there were supposedly-"willing" workers, what metropolis or geographic area would provide tens or hundreds of thousands of people willing to be human robots? Then there's the problem of finding enough mid-level industrial and manufacturing engineers and managers to run such an operation. Consumer electronics manufacturing essentially does not exist in the US so Apple would literally have to start from scratch in finding and training such workers all around the country and then move them to the location of final assembly to manage such a huge operation.

    What I'm basically saying here is that it's just not going to happen. There are many good reasons why consumer electronics manufacturing on such a massive scale developed in east Asia. First off, there's the sheer size and density of population in countries like Japan, Korea, Taiwan, and China. Second, the workers are relatively well-educated (especially in math) and, generally speaking, very disciplined, diligent and productive. Third, there's the shifting demographics of huge numbers of migrant workers (more than the population of the US itself) who are willing (even desperate) to work in such factories to escape the unimaginable poverties in inland China. Fourth, the development and manufacturing of key components such as semiconductors and flat-panel displays has been the domain of east Asia (Japanese and Korean electronic conglomerates) for decades now. Everything for electronics manufacturing is not merely established there, but deeply entrenched. (You say food is grown here in the U.S. because it's cheap, well, that's exactly my point. Manufacturing is cheap in Asia. And those people have just as much right to work as any American. You need to stop thinking our citizens are somehow more deserving of those jobs, of any job; it's a global economy).

    What would be the purpose of trying to uproot that to manufacture much more expensively in the US to provide jobs that most people here can't imagine doing? It's not just the labor. It's the overhead, the capital investment, all the byzantine regulations and tax laws, etc. that Apple (or any other would-be mass-scale electronics manufacturer) would have to contend with in the US. Apple setting up manufacturing (more accurately - final assembly) in the US *now* would be one of the most laughable business follies of all time.

    There is really nothing here to even have a debate. But who knows? Perhaps a decade or two from now, mass demographic and socio-economic movements and trends around the world as well as new manufacturing and assembly technologies that we can't even imagine right now will somehow make it more attractive to manufacture electronic and technology goods in the US. But right now certainly isn't the time. East Asia will remain the epicenter of consumer electronics manufacturing for the foreseeable future.

    Apple is about ideas, design, engineering, procurement/operations, marketing, providing content, cunration of its ecosystem, and customer service and the front-to-end coordination and the most proficient execution of all of these disciplines with a singular vision. When you think about it, that's really what America itself as an industry and economy should be all about.

    And this definitive post should be archived where we could access it every time the "bring the jobs back to America" sentiment rears its irrational head. I wonder if you've thought of doing your own blog.
  • Reply 103 of 147

    Cook was not referring to Sorkin's film, since it wasn't released yet.  Sorkin came across looking like a complete ass.  Does he do interviews drunk or what?  Apple has gone out of it's way to clean up Foxconn, a company that produces mostly Android phones.  Not sure I'll see Sorkin's film now, no matter how good it is.

  • Reply 104 of 147
    radarthekatradarthekat Posts: 3,577moderator
    flaneur wrote: »
    And this definitive post should be archived where we could access it every time the "bring the jobs back to America" sentiment rears its irrational head. I wonder if you've thought of doing your own blog.

    Thanks. I do archive some of my posts; the ones I spend the most time on and that speak to recurring misconceptions and attempts at misinformation on the part of those ignorant of the facts and how the world works. And I do run a small group on Facebook, just me and a few guys who actively trade and who all trade and own AAPL. So a lot of my thoughts get archived there.
  • Reply 105 of 147
    History will show that Apple has done more for the advancement of China labor reform than any other entity. Any student of history, which you are certainly not, understands the process that an economy goes through from pre-industrial to industrial to post-industrial. Apple is leading China in its industrial phase, raising the standard of living for the millions of workers involved in the assembly of its products and throughout its entire massive supply chain. Do you imagine a manufacturer of any other product in China, out off the spotlight that Apple and a few other forward thinking companies have placed upon themselves with their human rights reporting and monitoring, provides anywhere near the pay, the workplace safety, worker education, and opportunity as Apple?

    Do you realize that the suicide rate among workers assembling Apple products is far lower than that of American white collar office workers, just in case you are thinking of bringing that up?

    Do you have any clue about global trade and industry? Do you suppose Saudi Arabia should grow all its own food rather than importing food from America? Do you realize that by buying food from America, Saudi Arabia and other desert countries could be seen by people with your mindset as exploiting AMerican and Mexican laborers, since it would be far more expensive to grow the same food in Saudi Arabia. Therefore, by your thinking, American farmer workers should earn far more to reflect the enormous cost of growing food in the Saudi Arabian desert. And America shouldn't import oil from the Middle East either, according to your thinking. Nope, nobody should buy products or services from any region where those products or services can be had for less than in the importer's own country. That seems to be your thinking.

    The only reason Apple has been called out on these child labor issues is NOT because those issues occur ONLY in the manufacture of Apple products, but because attacking the largest and most successful company on earth makes for far better news headlines than talking about any of the thousands of factories in China where virtually every product on American store shelves is manufactured, in conditions far worse and with not a care about worker health, safety, pay, or happiness by the factory management. In a world where the pressure of competition swayed a large and apparently healthy company like Volkswagen to cheat on emissions tests, do you suppose the management of factories across China are immune to those same competitive pressures, while operating on even thinner margins? No.

    Hey, but thanks for playing.

    That has got to be one of the finest counter-argument I've ever read on this subject! Hats off and head bowed: RESPECT!
  • Reply 106 of 147
    Originally Posted by blandersonsf View Post

    Im an apple fan

     

    Rule #4: Occasionally preface arguments with "I love Apple, but…" or "As an Apple stockholder…"

     

    apple has been publicly called out for low wage child labor


     

    Show the class proof that Apple employs children.


     
    only after being called out and receiving bad press did apple change its policies

     

    I’m not even going to give you the courtesy of pretending that you’re not lying through your crooked, cavity-filled teeth, you worthless wretch. Everyone knows that you’re pulling things straight from your Google playbook.

     

    There are still questionable labor practices


     

    Not by Apple.

     

    …it is still VERY opportunistic to employe chinese to build apple products instead of manufacturing in america…


     

    Rule #34: Apple's Chinese workers hate their lives.

    Rule #35: Apple’s Chinese workers work far too long for far too little.


    Rule #36: Apple drives dozens of their Chinese workers to suicide per year.


    Rule #37: Apple beats their Chinese workers if they lose parts or devices.


    Rule #38: Only Apple mistreats their Chinese workers. No other company does this, so no other company should be audited or ever improve.


     
    Apple also continues to do very little about memory capacity, ram, processor speeds until this very fall.

     

    Rule #12: Hardware, software, and other specs always leave something to be desired.


    Rule #13: Express a belief that hardware or software updates that are physically impossible at the time will be included in the next device.

     

    Yet apple charges 700-1000% of the devices actual costs.


     

    Almost as though you know absolutely nothing whatsoever about the manufacturing of a product.

     

    That is why apple is sitting on over 150 billion in cash.



     

    $200 billion.

     
    Because its leaders are opportunistic.

     

    “WAAAA MOMMY THEY THOUGHT OF IT FIRST WAAAA” Show me the guns Apple is pointing at people to force them to buy their ‘overpriced’ products.

     

    Apple charges 30% of music, videos, movies, books, and app downloads.


     

    Charges? No.

     

    Apple rakes in billions for work it did not do.


     

    Apple did nothing.

    Apple did not create the platform on which the products could be sold in the first place, where they would never have existed otherwise.

    Apple did not create the search engine through which the products could be found in the first place, so they could actually be sold.

    Apple did not continually host the content so that it could be purchased in the first place.

    Sure thing.

     


    The cost of running and maintaining the app store would be roughly around 1.5-2.5% of app revenues. 


     

    Citation needed.

     

    But apple takes from other peoples work anyways because they simply can.


     

    “WAAAAAAAAAAAA MOMMY”

     

     Apple raised its pricing for insurance on its devices.


     

    Just like the government. So what?

     
     Even though prices per part were already broken down plus average labor costs to replace a iphone part, and applecare plus the fix fee are generally 600% more than it actually costs apple for the part and labor.

     

    Almost as though you know absolutely nothing whatsoever about the manufacturing of a product.

     
    Doing good business is great. Profiting is great.

     

    Story over. Get off our website.

     

    You broke the record of ROTT, too, I think.

  • Reply 107 of 147
    History will show that Apple has done more for the advancement of China labor reform than any other entity. Any student of history, which you are certainly not, understands the process that an economy goes through from pre-industrial to industrial to post-industrial. Apple is leading China in its industrial phase, raising the standard of living for the millions of workers involved in the assembly of its products and throughout its entire massive supply chain. Do you imagine a manufacturer of any other product in China, out off the spotlight that Apple and a few other forward thinking companies have placed upon themselves with their human rights reporting and monitoring, provides anywhere near the pay, the workplace safety, worker education, and opportunity as Apple?

    Do you realize that the suicide rate among workers assembling Apple products is far lower than that of American white collar office workers, just in case you are thinking of bringing that up?

    Do you have any clue about global trade and industry? Do you suppose Saudi Arabia should grow all its own food rather than importing food from America? Do you realize that by buying food from America, Saudi Arabia and other desert countries could be seen by people with your mindset as exploiting AMerican and Mexican laborers, since it would be far more expensive to grow the same food in Saudi Arabia. Therefore, by your thinking, American farmer workers should earn far more to reflect the enormous cost of growing food in the Saudi Arabian desert. And America shouldn't import oil from the Middle East either, according to your thinking. Nope, nobody should buy products or services from any region where those products or services can be had for less than in the importer's own country. That seems to be your thinking.

    The only reason Apple has been called out on these child labor issues is NOT because those issues occur ONLY in the manufacture of Apple products, but because attacking the largest and most successful company on earth makes for far better news headlines than talking about any of the thousands of factories in China where virtually every product on American store shelves is manufactured, in conditions far worse and with not a care about worker health, safety, pay, or happiness by the factory management. In a world where the pressure of competition swayed a large and apparently healthy company like Volkswagen to cheat on emissions tests, do you suppose the management of factories across China are immune to those same competitive pressures, while operating on even thinner margins? No.

    Hey, but thanks for playing.

    That has got to be one of the finest counter-argument I've ever read on this subject! Hats off and head bowed: RESPECT!

    Mmm ... Some quite savvy comments on this thread.

    I would offer that Apple's way of helping the disadvantaged -- is not to help them to improve doing what they're doing more efficiently -- rather, it is to help them to learn another way where they can improve themselves on their own terms.

    There is no greater power on earth than the value of one's own self-worth!


    "Love does not consist in gazing at each other but in looking together in the same direction." - Antoine de Saint-Exupéry -
     
  • Reply 108 of 147
    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post

    There is no greater power on earth than the value of one's on self-worth!

     

    More truth than you’ll find almost anywhere.

  • Reply 109 of 147
    Trolls don't offend me like they used to. For two reasons. First, Apple is crushing Samsung, and Andriod in general, where it counts, in profitability and in share of that portion of the Smartphone market where Apple participates. Yay! And second, because each attack by a troll offers an opportunity for those of us who comprehend business, technology, and the way Apple operates to educate.

    Wow! All I can say is I'm simply awed by this thread, all of the comments, and most of all your in-depth posts. I notice I'm not the only appreciative one here, I just wanted to join in the applause.

    @ AI Admins - look at this Gold Mine of intelligent participation, and tell us again why advertising and tracking is the only way you think you can stay afloat.

    Edited to add: .... and then while I was writing the above someone woke Tallest Skill up (facepalm)
    :D
  • Reply 110 of 147
    Trolls don't offend me like they used to. For two reasons. First, Apple is crushing Samsung, and Andriod in general, where it counts, in profitability and in share of that portion of the Smartphone market where Apple participates. Yay! And second, because each attack by a troll offers an opportunity for those of us who comprehend business, technology, and the way Apple operates to educate.

    Wow! All I can say is I'm simply awed by this thread, all of the comments, and most of all your in-depth posts. I notice I'm not the only appreciative one here, I just wanted to join in the applause.

    @ AI Admins - look at this Gold Mine of intelligent participation, and tell us again why advertising and tracking is the only way you think you can stay afloat.

    Oye! Oye!
  • Reply 111 of 147
    Edited to add: .... and then while I was writing the above someone woke Tallest Skill up (facepalm)
    :D

    C'mon ... TS is as contrarian as the rest of us -- that's what makes the pot spicy, and the conversations worthwhile!
  • Reply 112 of 147
    Originally Posted by ThePixelDoc View Post

    Edited to add: .... and then while I was writing the above someone woke Tallest Skill up (facepalm)

     

    To say that I’m at the end of my rope would imply that I remembered where I even left it. 

     

    Not that I don’t equally appreciate the responses from Radar et. al., but there comes a time where you just refuse to tolerate any more stupidity, particularly when there’s the real and proven possibility that the stupidity is paid.

  • Reply 113 of 147
    C'mon ... TS is as contrarian as the rest of us -- that's what makes the pot spicy, and the conversations worthwhile!

    Please do not mistake the Big Grin smiley, because it's sincere!

    TS comments: intelligent, thought-provoking, curious, abstract, free flowing... kinda like certain lagers, pikant cheese, and crackers... while reading haiku.

    To put it bluntly: an acquired taste :smokey:
  • Reply 114 of 147
    Tim and Steve were friends. Tim's allowed to feel reservations about any depictions about his friend%u2014I know I would. Hard to find any fault with that. Aaron should have recognized that before going off half-cocked.
  • Reply 115 of 147
    To say that I’m at the end of my rope would imply that I remembered where I even left it. 

    Not that I don’t equally appreciate the responses from Radar et. al., but there comes a time where you just refuse to tolerate any more stupidity, particularly when there’s the real and proven possibility that the stupidity is paid.

    No argument there whatsoever.

    I've decided to play it cool for a while and let others ply their emotional rants of injustice. I'm still trying to get the taste of day old socks out of my mouth the last time I jumped to conclusions and had a "know-it-all-attack" that manifested itself through my keyboard.

    Yeah I know, I should change my socks before going on a tirade or a business trip... What. Ever...:rolleyes:

    Edited: because *if* is not the same as *of* and Apple put the i and o on an iPad keyboard too d*mn close together! Really... they are!
  • Reply 116 of 147

    That's another Steve Job's film I won't be watching.

  • Reply 117 of 147
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TBell View Post



    Apple's executives were unhappy with Walter Isaacson's book because it was shallow, made shakey judgments on some of Jobs decisions, and was poorly written. He had full access to Jobs and he didn't write anything most Apple fans didn't already know. I was disappointed after reading the book because I didn't learn anything I hadn't already known.



    Cook and others likely felt Jobs would have been highly disappointed with the end result of the book not because it exposed some of Job's faults but because it simply was a poor product.



    Further there is nothing wrong with defending your dead friends reputation and legacy. To Cook and company Jobs was a real person they cared about. That is what they should do.



    Oh, I'm sorry - is this the "Misrepresent what Apple executives actually said to validate our own personal biases" forum? Because Tim Cook didn't say those things. He framed it as a "disservice", and your OPINION does not matter any more than anyone else's. 

     

    "Cook and others likely felt Jobs would have been highly disappointed" -- Walter Isaacson is a pretty well known, and fairly highly regarded journalist/historian/biographer/author, which is a big part of the reason for Steve and Laurene having sought him out. Your personal feelings that you're projecting unto what Tim Cook did not actually say are not supportive of his actual point of view, neither are they in any way congruent with how Steve Jobs himself wished to be represented by his hand-picked author for his one-and-only authorized biography. 

     

    Defense of Steve Jobs' reputation - and in particular, going after any and every publication that might have shown less attractive aspects of his personality/ history - are neither part of any of Apple's executive job descriptions or even remotely connected to what Jobs asked of any of them. 

  • Reply 118 of 147
    matrix07matrix07 Posts: 1,993member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ronbo View Post

     



    We'll trade hints then. Here's yours: Sorkin didn't do "Steve Jobs: The Man in the Machine". 


     

    And Tim Cook didn't mention Sorkin's film. Colbert asked Cook when this scandalous documentary just open and have Apple employees walked out of theatre in film festival just a few weeks ago. Check the date the film released. Check the date of the article in my link. Check the date Colbert asked Cook, you will have a clue at last.

    That film is opportunistic. No other words could describe it better.

    Sorkin's film doesn't open yet. Even though most biography films are opportunistic by nature, how can Cook criticizes the film that hasn't been open? How can he know whether it's good or bad? This is Sorkin's self-promotion by trying to drag Tim Cook into his film marketing. Again I ask, Why did someone open his mouth when he doesn't have a clue?

  • Reply 119 of 147
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by matrix07 View Post

     

     

    And Tim Cook didn't mention Sorkin's film. Colbert asked Cook when this scandalous documentary just open and have Apple employees walked out of theatre in film festival just a few weeks ago. Check the date the film released. Check the date of the article in my link. Check the date Colbert asked Cook, you will have a clue at last.

    That film is opportunistic.

    Sorkin's film doesn't open yet. Even though most biography films are opportunistic by nature, how can Cook criticizes the film that hasn't been open? This is Sorkin's self-promotion by trying to drag Tim Cook into his film marketing. Again I ask, Why did someone open his mouth when he doesn't have a clue?




    Actually I did have a clue. You'll find it when I referred to the mindless vitriolic hysteria that people engage in when it touches on Apple. See my Crips vs Bloods remark. Cook is guilty at the very least of a clumsiness if he wasn't directing his remarks at least partially at Sorkin. And in that case, a person of honor and class would feel he owes Sorkin an apology, seeing as his own blow came first. He is far too powerful and his words carry far too much weight for him to be careless about his condemnations. I know you won't see it that way. See my earlier remark about class and honor. Let's leave it there, and agree to disagree. Unlike you, I don't especially find anything of value in the silly lather you've got yourself into.

  • Reply 120 of 147
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ronbo View Post

     



    Actually I did have a clue. 




    No, you don't. If you have a clue you would have acknowledged that Tim Cook has a good reason to call Jobs' film opportunistic since the most recent Jobs' film (this documentary) is indeed opportunistic. You said he shoot first without good reason which shows ignorance, sorry if I'm being frank. He didn't even aim at Sorkin's film since it wasn't in theaters yet. Here is Colbert's question:

     

    "A bunch of movies that coming out right now that aren't flattering". 

     

    Sorkin could have simply said "I hope he enjoys my film as much as I enjoys his products" like he said at last but no, he had to be a dick first.

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