Judge draws parallels between iPhone search request and lethal injection drugs

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  • Reply 21 of 63
    maestro64maestro64 Posts: 5,036member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by imagladry View Post



    Analog cellular phones conversations were unencrypted. With the more to digital, conversations became encrypted. It has been that way for years. Were is the outrage the digital cell phone conversation are now encrypted?

    But the authorities can still listen in on your cell phone conversations, it is only encrypted in open air once it hits the cell tower it is back to odinary compress digital communications which can be router to any listen the phone company wants the data sent to. encrypted digital communication was done so your neighor could not ease drop on your conversation, by legal means that is. Remember anything transmitted over the air is free for you to recieve and listen to unless it is specifically was encrypted. It is illegal to de-encrypt a signal.

     

    Police two way radio can be listen in on, at one time it was not an issue for the average citizen to list to the police and fire transmission. Today police are all required to move to encrypted digital two way systems so the "Bad Guys" do not know what they are doing. The bad guys are us in this case. Also Police today hardly use their twoway systems which were not converted to digital they actually use their cell phones. I sell more police using the cell phone than they use the radio mic.

  • Reply 22 of 63
    foggyhillfoggyhill Posts: 4,767member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by TomMikele View Post

     



    The police beat the living crap out of someone until they gave them the information they wanted. Does that answer your question?


     

    Yes, because torture works, so says Bush.... (sic)

    Do you live in some hell hole, because that's not how it was done around here, at least not for the last 50 years at least.

  • Reply 23 of 63
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post





    A bank is a Federally regulated entity. Entirely different.

     

    If the bank did not open it the police (with a search warrant) can drill the locks off the box and search it anyways.... 

     

    They however cannot require a private locksmith who does not work for the police to work for them.

  • Reply 24 of 63



    Are you naive? It would seem so.

  • Reply 25 of 63
    "Analog cellular phones conversations were unencrypted. With the more to digital, conversations became encrypted. It has been that way for years. Were is the outrage the digital cell phone conversation are now encrypted?"

    Hackers can decrypt GSM in seconds so presumably the government has been able to do it for quite some time.
  • Reply 26 of 63
    foggyhillfoggyhill Posts: 4,767member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post





    People object to brutality, torture and the like but it gets the job done.

     

    Seemingly, there's plenty of study to the contrary.

    You only get what you're expecting to get; not the truth.

  • Reply 27 of 63
    ronnronn Posts: 516member
    Quote:


     



    Originally Posted by TomMikele View Post

     



    The police beat the living crap out of someone until they gave them the information they wanted. Does that answer your question?


     

    They still do beat the living crap of people and large portions of the public just don't care. Part of it is outrage fatigue like someone below wrote. And unfortunately, too many don't care as long as "it gets the job done," never realizing that they could fall victim to the same treatment.

  • Reply 28 of 63
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by foggyhill View Post

     

     

    Yes, because torture works, so says Bush.... (sic)

    Do you live in some hell hole, because that's not how it was done around here, at least not for the last 50 years at least.


     

    For all the statements that torture does not work.... it actually works very well.... the problem is it can motivate someone into lying just to stop the torture but that is fairly easily solved....  If you torture someone for information - they will eventually talk.   If they tell you A B C D  and you know A C then B and D have a good chance of being valid actionable information.  If however they tell you E F G H and you have information A B C D (i.e. no information matches) then it is likely the information is not valid nor actionable....  Torture makes people talk, they will tell you what they know and if they don't know they will make stuff up..... but with the proper intelligence and corroborating information torture is a useful tool.  The issue is a moral one - and whether you want to become what you are fighting -- evil.

  • Reply 29 of 63
    dasanman69dasanman69 Posts: 13,002member
    wizard69 wrote: »
    People object to brutality, torture and the like but it gets the job done.

    What job?

    The gathering of information.
  • Reply 30 of 63
    ronnronn Posts: 516member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post





    The gathering of information.

     

    Often false information, or information that the police want match to specific cases.

  • Reply 31 of 63
    dasanman69dasanman69 Posts: 13,002member
    foggyhill wrote: »
    wizard69 wrote: »
    People object to brutality, torture and the like but it gets the job done.

    Seemingly, there's plenty of study to the contrary.
    You only get what you're expecting to get; not the truth.

    There are studies that prove, and disprove just about everything.
  • Reply 32 of 63
    foggyhillfoggyhill Posts: 4,767member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bkkcanuck View Post

     

     

    For all the statements that torture does not work.... it actually works very well.... the problem is it can motivate someone into lying just to stop the torture but that is fairly easily solved....  If you torture someone for information - they will eventually talk.   If they tell you A B C D  and you know A C then B and D have a good chance of being valid actionable information.  If however they tell you E F G H and you have information A B C D (i.e. no information matches) then it is likely the information is not valid nor actionable....  Torture makes people talk, they will tell you what they know and if they don't know they will make stuff up..... but with the proper intelligence and corroborating information torture is a useful tool.  The issue is a moral one - and whether you want to become what you are fighting -- evil.


     

    PRovide the link and we'll talk.

    All the studies I've seen is does not work or very quickly diminishing returns.

    Another issue is that the person you have may have NO USEFUL INFO.

    In fact it's very probable you're torturing someone who knows nothing.

    So, your equation is ALL WRONG. Because this person will also give you info that will mean nothing and well...

     

    By the time, you deduce something from what the hell was said in those 50 torture sessions on 20 individuals,

    years may have passed. Not exactly up to date info.

     

    Better to do infiltration work, get informants, and the like if you want more info, especially real time one.

    It's very very hard to do, but you'd get more actionable intelligence.

  • Reply 33 of 63
    bobschlobbobschlob Posts: 1,074member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post

     
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by BobSchlob View Post



    Can't judges issue warrants to open a safe deposit box?




    A bank is a Federally regulated entity. Entirely different.



    Huh?? What would federal regulation have to do with anything in that regard??

  • Reply 34 of 63
    dasanman69dasanman69 Posts: 13,002member
    ronn wrote: »
    dasanman69 wrote: »
    The gathering of information.

    Often false information, or information that the police want match to specific cases.

    Most people have not been trained to withstand torture of any type. Simple sleep deprivation can work wonders. I'll tell you whatever the hell you want to know for a nap. :lol:
  • Reply 35 of 63
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Magic_Al View Post

     



    The implication that law enforcement can't function, never has functioned, and shouldn't be expected to function without violating constitutional rights and individual liberty is one I reject. I think even expressing jokingly that abuse is to be expected is destructive to people's determination to protect their rights. Outrage fatigue has to be countered. Official abuse is an outrage the first time it happens, and it's an outrage the millionth time it happens.




    I do respect your opinion and I hope the element of sarcasm in my comment was not lost on you. My point is law enforcement has been known to do as they wished in pursuit of information and evidence regardless of an individual's rights and required procedures. Such behavior, at times, has allowed many criminals to go free and at other times has been responsible for gross miscarriages of justice. Combine that with the behaviors that have come to light in this technically connected age we live in and it becomes pretty clear why a very large number of Americans  have had the bond of trust with law enforcement broken. Broken trust is the most difficult aspect of a relationship to repair. More often than not, it can't be repaired. I am sorry of you took my comment to mean I think all law enforcement behaves like this and "beats the crap" out of people. They don't. Most of them work pretty hard and take risks we wouldn't. All it takes is a few rotten apples and it seems every week we see evidence of more than a few rotten apples.

     

    Quite frankly, I do not trust law enforcement to behave in accordance with the law if there was a back door. Lacking that trust, no back door is a better option. Even if there was a back door all the current rules regarding search and seizure should be applicable. Why should your property rights and protections be any different because a phone/digital communications are involved? You want to look inside my phone? Demonstrate probable cause to a judge and get a search warrant. You don't get to search my property before you establish probable cause and you don;t get to force me help you establish probable cause/give evidence against myself.

  • Reply 36 of 63
    solipsismysolipsismy Posts: 5,099member
    dasanman69 wrote: »
    Most people have not been trained to withstand torture of any type. Simple sleep deprivation can work wonders. I'll tell you whatever the hell you want to know for a nap. :lol:

    You've been a member of this forum since 2009, so, yes, you have been trained to withstand certain tortures.
  • Reply 37 of 63
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by BobSchlob View Post

     



    Huh?? What would federal regulation have to do with anything in that regard??




    Absolutely nothing. Don't you just love it when people think they know the law and start telling us how it is when they actually have close to zero knowledge about what they have commented on?

  • Reply 38 of 63
    bobschlobbobschlob Posts: 1,074member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TomMikele View Post

    all the current rules regarding search and seizure should be applicable. Why should your property rights and protections be any different because a phone/digital communications are involved? You want to look inside my phone? Demonstrate probable cause to a judge and get a search warrant. You don't get to search my property before you establish probable cause and you don;t get to force me help you establish probable cause/give evidence against myself.

     

    Holy crap. Has anyone been arguing that it should (or even could) be otherwise? (I have not read through every argument)

    Locked personal property is locked personal property.

    edit: and for the record; they're "laws" not "rules".

  • Reply 39 of 63
    dasanman69dasanman69 Posts: 13,002member
    solipsismy wrote: »
    dasanman69 wrote: »
    Most people have not been trained to withstand torture of any type. Simple sleep deprivation can work wonders. I'll tell you whatever the hell you want to know for a nap. :lol:

    You've been a member of this forum since 2009, so, yes, you have been trained to withstand certain tortures.

    I was born, and raised in NYC where neurosis is as common as rectums. You all on here are lightweights. ;)
  • Reply 40 of 63



    As my college statistics professor used to say, "Tell me what you want the numbers to say and I will make sure they say that."

     

    Once you start asking questions about surveys and their composition and sample protocols, most of them fall apart very quickly.

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