This article is a joke, not only it forgets to mention that the ipad "pro" that is cheaper comes with only 32 gb of storage, making it completely unusable it also forgets to mention that once you add all pencil and the keyboard it actually becomes more expensive than the surface pro 4 base level which comes with 64 GB of storage. If you buy a Surface pro 4 core i5 model with 128 GB (which is more comparable with the iPad with 128 GB) the surface will cost 999 USD while the iPad "pro" will cost 949 USD. Of course once you add the ridiculously priced apple pencil and keyboard you will end up paying more for the iPad. All of this for a product with virtually no ports, no expandable storage and a mobile OS. Only an idiot would even consider buying an iPad "pro"
Then there are many idiots because it has garnered a lot of interest.... One person is planning to go out and buy 3 on day 1 (wife, employee and him) -- someone that has in the past owned a Surface Pro.
1. I think there is an error in the article, since there is a SP4 with Intel i5, 4GB and 128GB of storage for $999. Compare that to the 128GB iPad Pro, and there is a $50 different, which IMO is not too much. BTW, the Surface Pro includes the Pen.
2. I think MS compare the Surface Book to the Macbook based in screen size. Right now the Surface Book has an advantage in some type of workload over the 13" Macbook Pro, since Apple, for some reason, decided the 13" users don't need a dedicated GPU.
I agree with him that the Surface Book is expensive, but the technology behind it is impressive.
3. Quote:
"Why are Microsoft's PCs so slow and expensive?"
I would ask the same to Apple regarding the Macbook.
4. Quote:
"Surface Pro has effectively remained a big Zune: feature-comparable with Apple's highest-end offerings, at a price way too high for the Windows demographic that expects a cheap copy of Apple to actually be significantly less expensive than Apple."
I don't think Surface Pro targets that kind of users. The price of the Surface Pro matches it's quality of construction. I don't see cheap customers going for it.
5. Quote:
"Again, Apple has an ecosystem advantage to leverage because iOS is already familiar. The company has been working with IBM, Cisco, Adobe and other partners to develop custom apps and enterprise support in advance of its arrival. Corporate custom mobile apps are overwhelmingly already standardizing around iOS."
IBM , Cisco Adobe and other partners are working or already have optimized applications for the Surface Pro, including Ares Touch, the CAD application that is mentioned in the linked article.
Problem with the Surfii is their Windows legacy. Everyone from actual customers of the device, to tech pundits expect it to run traditional Windows software. I also remember past MS commercials, pitting their device against the Macbook Air. Not the iPad. Furhermore, in coffee shops, food courts etc. I see those devices laid out upright with keyboard out. Rare ly do I see them being used as tablets. Basically, what MS has done, is throw into the fold another small PC form factor, which can sometimes be used as a tablet.
Now the Surfacebook, is nothing but a Macbook Pro wannabe. As for its detachable screen, with 3 hours of battery life? That's a joke.
IBM , Cisco Adobe and other partners are working or already have optimized applications for the Surface Pro, including Ares Touch, the CAD application that is mentioned in the linked article.
So, I can get a full blown MCAD package from Onshape, from the original developers of SolidWorks, that will run from on tablets, including, shortly, the iPad Pro:
Surface isn't a mobile product; it is a desktop bifurcation in an attempt to kickstart moribund laptop sales, and compete with the traditional ASP's that Apple gets with the Mac Book Pro line. Even if hybrids are purchased over laptops, it won't be increasing revenues and incomes for very long before the dreaded race to the bottom OEM's arrive and pollute the market with crap.
Let's see, the Surface Pro is a 1.7lbs, 12.8" device with a touch screen, stylus and a nice optional keyboard that can be easily carried in a bag. But you think is not a mobile product.
Quote:
iPad Pro is a mobile product that can find itself quite at home on the desktop for some people, and as much as you want to portray the iPad Pro as a copy of Surface, you might want to rethink the timeline of both products and the accessory that the original iPad was announced with.
And you think the iPad Pro can be a fine desktop, even though the keyboard is bad and the only way to interact with it is with touch. Do you remember when people in this forum criticized touch screen notebooks because of their poor ergonomics? I don't see hows different from the iPad Pro with the keyboard.
2. I think MS compare the Surface Book to the Macbook based in screen size. Right now the Surface Book has an advantage in some type of workload over the 13" Macbook Pro, since Apple, for some reason, decided the 13" users don't need a dedicated GPU.
I agree with him that the Surface Book is expensive, but the technology behind it is impressive.
I do think the devices MS vs Apple are hitting completely different markets. Of the half-dozen orders that I have heard are going to be made by friday - none of the purchasers were likely to buy a keyboard to go with it. The real excitement right now seems to be with creative types. I don't spend much times in office environments right now, so I don't know what the initial uptake is likely to be there. I do know that the iPad is seems fairly popular with many in the the small part of the Canadian Civil Service that I am exposed to.... time will tell. I do think the sales of the iPad initially will be a hit with some niches to begin with. There will be many that have held off buying iPads that have held off further waiting until the next iteration of the iPad Air....
Microsoft has it's niches (which although people say are huge, are still quite small)..... but the use cases are quite a bit different..... I think most Microsoft Surface Pro buyers tend to want laptop functionality more than tablet functionality (pretty well all Surface Pro buyers also bought a keyboard - an indicator of different use cases). So the Surface Pro 4 is more of a portable windows machine (laptop but not for the lap) with a detachable screen, and to complement it they have come out with a Surface Book which has a detachable keyboard -- but it's use case will fall mostly in those that want a laptop and were enticed by the gimmicky detachable screen -- though after the first week will not end up using that functionality (in most cases).
I will wait to see which one hits the mark the best.
So, I can get a full blown MCAD package from Onshape, from the original developers of SolidWorks, that will run from on tablets, including, shortly, the iPad Pro:
A device can have all the power in the world but it's redundant if it doesn't run the software you want to use.
The Surface Pro (a successful, profitable product by anyone's metrics but Apple's) has its place in the market. If you want to run full-fat Photoshop, Illustrator or Office then it's a great choice. Personally, I'd rather use an iPad Pro but that's because I'm not tied to any piece of Windows software.
I see a lot of Surface Pros in London. They're usually carried by people in suits rather than people in hoodies though.
Touting specs is like poking at a hornets nest with a stick. Nothing good ever comes of it. As much as I enjoy reading Daniel's articles they are heavily biased and perpetuate the myth that computing gadgets are a zero sum gain, that the success of one type of device has to obliterate the market for other similar but not quite the same devices. There's a whole mix of customer use cases, price points, device capabilities, personal preferences, and business decisions that go into purchases. Apple has chosen one path, which is to provide highly specific devices that are optimized for a set of use cases and user experiences.
Microsoft is in the midst of a monumental pivot and playing catch-up that includes divorcing themselves from their former hardware partners and going after the full sale with all MS product, i.e., trying to be more like Apple. They have chosen to leverage Windows 10 as a "one size fits all" platform and hybrid devices like Surface allow them to go after multiple use cases and a "good enough" UX to hit both notebook and tablet targets. Microsoft tried the dual OS approach that Apple is successfully using but they failed miserably. You fail fast, make corrections, and take another shot and hope the subsequent attempts are better. No doubt many (or most) Microsoft and Windows users would prefer a world-class MBP quality lap-compatible notebook without the funkyhinge or floppy keyboard but Microsoft is trying too hard to be different and further distance themselves from commodity WinJunk market with its profitless sales model, so we have the Surface Book.
The biggest thing Microsoft has in its favor is the thermonuclear level of FUD that most corporations have around the MS file formats. No matter how many times they see that non-MS apps can handle the MS formats just fine the first time a font or indentation gets misinterpreted they fly into a tizzy and go running back to Microsoft. The other deal breaker is legacy business apps that require Windows. Again, there's a solution in the form of virtualization but there's also a layer of FUD built up around that as well, even though most cloud infrastructure is running in virtual environments.
With all that being said, it's high time that Apple did a refresh on their MBP line just to take away the specsmanship cherry picking opportunities that Microsoft has been using to compare their hybrids to the lower end of the MBA and MBP lines.
Your numbers are wrong about surface pro 4 prices. Surface pro 4 with core m HAS 128 GB Storage, while you mentioned 64 GB. There is NO 64 GB model on the market at all. Also, the $1299 model is with 8 GB RAM (and yes 256 GB SSD true here), there is another model with 4 GB RAM which costs $999.
So Surface Pro 4 is MUCH CHEAPER than iPad pro. $999: for core i5 AND 128GB SSD and 4 GB RAM. Regardless of OS ($140)...
Additionally, geekbench is an ARM-mind benchmark and in ARM systems measures only a short time and in Windows PCs runs a long while, additionally ARM has two more hardware accelerators for it and are optimized which all say how misleading it is.
Also, iPad takes nearly twice the surface pro 4 to charge...
Those of us who actually work in IT know that it's a royal pain to integrate Apple computers into a corporate IT environment. iPad Pro is still hobbled by iOS which does not offer Java or flash support (not arguing that's not a good thing). Comparing the Surface Pro 4 to the iPad Pro is like comparing an airplane to a boat. They're not the same thing. I bought and iPad for a college student and we had to return it because many of the applications the student used were not supported on the iPad. Guess what we bought that is compatible with those applications?
This fact: "That problem is only getting worse for Surface Pro, because it relies upon Intel's expensive, premium x86 chips" makes me wonder how long before we read, like Google has indicated it will, Microsoft might try to copy Apple in creating its own custom chips.
No one can compete on price performance now since Apple tablets don't have to add in a profit for Intel too. It's only a matter of time IMHO before the same will be true of the Mac line up as the need to run VMs for Windows becomes a distant memory for so many of us. I cannot believe Apple are not also working on a far more powerful custom SOC for the OS X range.
I do think the devices MS vs Apple are hitting completely different markets. Of the half-dozen orders that I have heard are going to be made by friday - none of the purchasers were likely to buy a keyboard to go with it. The real excitement right now seems to be with creative types. I don't spend much times in office environments right now, so I don't know what the initial uptake is likely to be there. I do know that the iPad is seems fairly popular with many in the the small part of the Canadian Civil Service that I am exposed to.... time will tell. I do think the sales of the iPad initially will be a hit with some niches to begin with. There will be many that have held off buying iPads that have held off further waiting until the next iteration of the iPad Air....
Microsoft has it's niches (which although people say are huge, are still quite small)..... but the use cases are quite a bit different..... I think most Microsoft Surface Pro buyers tend to want laptop functionality more than tablet functionality (pretty well all Surface Pro buyers also bought a keyboard - an indicator of different use cases). So the Surface Pro 4 is more of a portable windows machine (laptop but not for the lap) with a detachable screen, and to complement it they have come out with a Surface Book which has a detachable keyboard -- but it's use case will fall mostly in those that want a laptop and were enticed by the gimmicky detachable screen -- though after the first week will not end up using that functionality (in most cases).
I will wait to see which one hits the mark the best.
I believe you are correct. The Surface Pro is just filling the void the netbooks, the iPad killed off, left. The same fate awaits for the same reason.
I'll add this which is completely unbiased ... Life is simple for us Apple user. if we want the best laptop, as I do, get a MacBook or MacBookPro if we want the best tablet get an iPad, most of us, I suspect, have both. I can see the problem with the Microsoft camp, they have to choose between a laptop and a laptop that comes to bits and makes a crappy tablet and a crappy laptop. Not to mention both run a crappy OS.
"Everything you can do on a desktop computer or gaming console is not only possible on iPad Pro, it is possibly better" (Apple US, 2015).
"Yes, the iPad Pro is a replacement for a notebook or a desktop for many, many people. They will start using it and conclude they no longer need to use anything else, other than their phones," (Apple CEO, 2015).
BUT
THEY DON'T TELL YOU THAT
The iPad Pro (iOS 9) can't do many things compared to a real OS like Windows 10 e.g. support multiple users with complete application & file security, fully support all input device types, incl. mice, trackpads, game controllers, microSD, USB, etc., virtual machine support for running multiple OSs simultaneously, fully integrate with the robust enterprise applications that drive organisations.
It performs the most basic functions only & completely lacks the power & depth of full-fledged apps e.g. databases (e.g. Access 2016), photo editing (e.g. Adobe Photoshop), video editing (e.g. Adobe Premier), 3D rendering (e.g. AutoCAD), financial management (e.g. QuickBooks), development environments (e.g. Visual Studio).
You must be living in a cave if you think that surface line of computers has no traction. Not only has it become very profitable for Microsoft it has sparked a revolution in 2 in 1 devices that have arrived from all manufacturer, including apple (even if their attempt is extremelly por and doomed to fail). The Surface pro 4 and Surface book are in a completely different league to the toy that is the ipad "pro" (should have been called the ipad +) since it still runs a mobile os, has no real ports, lacks simple things like file management and compatibility with the great majority of peripherals, all of which are indispensable to any real professional.
Actual sales number DON't support your assertion.
Exactly. Microsoft sold about a million in all of FY2015. Laughable. Even if FY2016 is 3x or 5x that number. (Which it won't be).
At some point, especially of Apple ever do release a SOC for OS X I see no reason that more iOS type features might not creep into OS X but for it to be a full blown touch screen would go against the philosophy of two distinct tools for two distinct uses which has so far prevailed with Apple's line up. Perhaps a third category, an OS X touch tablet, is possible one day, but I don't see the current model being changed for the time being. That said, I never say never and I do occasionally wish i could reach for the screen in OS X but not often. On the other hand I one curse the limitations if the finger interface in iOS but that's just me.
It makes absolutely no difference, since Microsoft's frankentablet has next to zero traction in the market.
The tragedy is that the iPad's smart keyboard cover validates Microsoft's weird vision of hybrid PC/tablets.
I sincerely hope people would stop wishing the iPad to be a Macbook. There's a Macbook for that, only a fraction more expensive than an iPad pro with smart keyboard.
EDIT: changed 'smart cover' to 'smart keyboard cover'
Comments
This article is a joke, not only it forgets to mention that the ipad "pro" that is cheaper comes with only 32 gb of storage, making it completely unusable it also forgets to mention that once you add all pencil and the keyboard it actually becomes more expensive than the surface pro 4 base level which comes with 64 GB of storage. If you buy a Surface pro 4 core i5 model with 128 GB (which is more comparable with the iPad with 128 GB) the surface will cost 999 USD while the iPad "pro" will cost 949 USD. Of course once you add the ridiculously priced apple pencil and keyboard you will end up paying more for the iPad. All of this for a product with virtually no ports, no expandable storage and a mobile OS. Only an idiot would even consider buying an iPad "pro"
Then there are many idiots because it has garnered a lot of interest.... One person is planning to go out and buy 3 on day 1 (wife, employee and him) -- someone that has in the past owned a Surface Pro.
1. I think there is an error in the article, since there is a SP4 with Intel i5, 4GB and 128GB of storage for $999. Compare that to the 128GB iPad Pro, and there is a $50 different, which IMO is not too much. BTW, the Surface Pro includes the Pen.
2. I think MS compare the Surface Book to the Macbook based in screen size. Right now the Surface Book has an advantage in some type of workload over the 13" Macbook Pro, since Apple, for some reason, decided the 13" users don't need a dedicated GPU.
I agree with him that the Surface Book is expensive, but the technology behind it is impressive.
3. Quote:
I would ask the same to Apple regarding the Macbook.
4. Quote:
I don't think Surface Pro targets that kind of users. The price of the Surface Pro matches it's quality of construction. I don't see cheap customers going for it.
5. Quote:
IBM , Cisco Adobe and other partners are working or already have optimized applications for the Surface Pro, including Ares Touch, the CAD application that is mentioned in the linked article.
https://twitter.com/graebertcad/status/652059934302040064?ref_src=twsrc^tfw
BTW, the title of the article mentions "Slow and Expensive". Does he really thinks the Surface Pro / Surface Books are slow?
I also remember past MS commercials, pitting their device against the Macbook Air. Not the iPad.
Furhermore, in coffee shops, food courts etc. I see those devices laid out upright with keyboard out. Rare ly do I see them being used as tablets.
Basically, what MS has done, is throw into the fold another small PC form factor, which can sometimes be used as a tablet.
Now the Surfacebook, is nothing but a Macbook Pro wannabe. As for its detachable screen, with 3 hours of battery life? That's a joke.
5. Quote:
IBM , Cisco Adobe and other partners are working or already have optimized applications for the Surface Pro, including Ares Touch, the CAD application that is mentioned in the linked article.
https://twitter.com/graebertcad/status/652059934302040064?ref_src=twsrc^tfw
So, I can get a full blown MCAD package from Onshape, from the original developers of SolidWorks, that will run from on tablets, including, shortly, the iPad Pro:
https://www.onshape.com
Again, I would note that Surface does nothing for MS mobile, and the is a problem for MS.
Originally Posted by tmay
Surface isn't a mobile product; it is a desktop bifurcation in an attempt to kickstart moribund laptop sales, and compete with the traditional ASP's that Apple gets with the Mac Book Pro line. Even if hybrids are purchased over laptops, it won't be increasing revenues and incomes for very long before the dreaded race to the bottom OEM's arrive and pollute the market with crap.
Let's see, the Surface Pro is a 1.7lbs, 12.8" device with a touch screen, stylus and a nice optional keyboard that can be easily carried in a bag. But you think is not a mobile product.
And you think the iPad Pro can be a fine desktop, even though the keyboard is bad and the only way to interact with it is with touch. Do you remember when people in this forum criticized touch screen notebooks because of their poor ergonomics? I don't see hows different from the iPad Pro with the keyboard.
2. I think MS compare the Surface Book to the Macbook based in screen size. Right now the Surface Book has an advantage in some type of workload over the 13" Macbook Pro, since Apple, for some reason, decided the 13" users don't need a dedicated GPU.
I agree with him that the Surface Book is expensive, but the technology behind it is impressive.
I do think the devices MS vs Apple are hitting completely different markets. Of the half-dozen orders that I have heard are going to be made by friday - none of the purchasers were likely to buy a keyboard to go with it. The real excitement right now seems to be with creative types. I don't spend much times in office environments right now, so I don't know what the initial uptake is likely to be there. I do know that the iPad is seems fairly popular with many in the the small part of the Canadian Civil Service that I am exposed to.... time will tell. I do think the sales of the iPad initially will be a hit with some niches to begin with. There will be many that have held off buying iPads that have held off further waiting until the next iteration of the iPad Air....
Microsoft has it's niches (which although people say are huge, are still quite small)..... but the use cases are quite a bit different..... I think most Microsoft Surface Pro buyers tend to want laptop functionality more than tablet functionality (pretty well all Surface Pro buyers also bought a keyboard - an indicator of different use cases). So the Surface Pro 4 is more of a portable windows machine (laptop but not for the lap) with a detachable screen, and to complement it they have come out with a Surface Book which has a detachable keyboard -- but it's use case will fall mostly in those that want a laptop and were enticed by the gimmicky detachable screen -- though after the first week will not end up using that functionality (in most cases).
I will wait to see which one hits the mark the best.
So, I can get a full blown MCAD package from Onshape, from the original developers of SolidWorks, that will run from on tablets, including, shortly, the iPad Pro:
https://www.onshape.com
That should be great for you. But based of what I have seen with my engineers and arch customers, they prefer working in large screens.
Quote:
Surface Pro and Surface Book are great devices. Let's see how it develops during the next years. But right now, they are not doing bad.
A device can have all the power in the world but it's redundant if it doesn't run the software you want to use.
The Surface Pro (a successful, profitable product by anyone's metrics but Apple's) has its place in the market. If you want to run full-fat Photoshop, Illustrator or Office then it's a great choice. Personally, I'd rather use an iPad Pro but that's because I'm not tied to any piece of Windows software.
I see a lot of Surface Pros in London. They're usually carried by people in suits rather than people in hoodies though.
Microsoft is in the midst of a monumental pivot and playing catch-up that includes divorcing themselves from their former hardware partners and going after the full sale with all MS product, i.e., trying to be more like Apple. They have chosen to leverage Windows 10 as a "one size fits all" platform and hybrid devices like Surface allow them to go after multiple use cases and a "good enough" UX to hit both notebook and tablet targets. Microsoft tried the dual OS approach that Apple is successfully using but they failed miserably. You fail fast, make corrections, and take another shot and hope the subsequent attempts are better. No doubt many (or most) Microsoft and Windows users would prefer a world-class MBP quality lap-compatible notebook without the funkyhinge or floppy keyboard but Microsoft is trying too hard to be different and further distance themselves from commodity WinJunk market with its profitless sales model, so we have the Surface Book.
The biggest thing Microsoft has in its favor is the thermonuclear level of FUD that most corporations have around the MS file formats. No matter how many times they see that non-MS apps can handle the MS formats just fine the first time a font or indentation gets misinterpreted they fly into a tizzy and go running back to Microsoft. The other deal breaker is legacy business apps that require Windows. Again, there's a solution in the form of virtualization but there's also a layer of FUD built up around that as well, even though most cloud infrastructure is running in virtual environments.
With all that being said, it's high time that Apple did a refresh on their MBP line just to take away the specsmanship cherry picking opportunities that Microsoft has been using to compare their hybrids to the lower end of the MBA and MBP lines.
http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/new-product/tablets/microsoft-surface-pro-4-release-date-price-specs-uk-1tb-core-i7-tomorrow-3598635/
So Surface Pro 4 is MUCH CHEAPER than iPad pro. $999: for core i5 AND 128GB SSD and 4 GB RAM. Regardless of OS ($140)...
Additionally, geekbench is an ARM-mind benchmark and in ARM systems measures only a short time and in Windows PCs runs a long while, additionally ARM has two more hardware accelerators for it and are optimized which all say how misleading it is.
Also, iPad takes nearly twice the surface pro 4 to charge...
Thanks!
No one can compete on price performance now since Apple tablets don't have to add in a profit for Intel too. It's only a matter of time IMHO before the same will be true of the Mac line up as the need to run VMs for Windows becomes a distant memory for so many of us. I cannot believe Apple are not also working on a far more powerful custom SOC for the OS X range.
I believe you are correct. The Surface Pro is just filling the void the netbooks, the iPad killed off, left. The same fate awaits for the same reason.
I'll add this which is completely unbiased ...
APPLE TELLS YOU THAT
"Everything you can do on a desktop computer or gaming console is not only possible on iPad Pro, it is possibly better" (Apple US, 2015).
"Yes, the iPad Pro is a replacement for a notebook or a desktop for many, many people. They will start using it and conclude they no longer need to use anything else, other than their phones," (Apple CEO, 2015).
BUT
THEY DON'T TELL YOU THAT
The iPad Pro (iOS 9) can't do many things compared to a real OS like Windows 10 e.g. support multiple users with complete application & file security, fully support all input device types, incl. mice, trackpads, game controllers, microSD, USB, etc., virtual machine support for running multiple OSs simultaneously, fully integrate with the robust enterprise applications that drive organisations.
It performs the most basic functions only & completely lacks the power & depth of full-fledged apps e.g. databases (e.g. Access 2016), photo editing (e.g. Adobe Photoshop), video editing (e.g. Adobe Premier), 3D rendering (e.g. AutoCAD), financial management (e.g. QuickBooks), development environments (e.g. Visual Studio).
Exactly. Microsoft sold about a million in all of FY2015. Laughable. Even if FY2016 is 3x or 5x that number. (Which it won't be).
At some point, especially of Apple ever do release a SOC for OS X I see no reason that more iOS type features might not creep into OS X but for it to be a full blown touch screen would go against the philosophy of two distinct tools for two distinct uses which has so far prevailed with Apple's line up. Perhaps a third category, an OS X touch tablet, is possible one day, but I don't see the current model being changed for the time being. That said, I never say never and I do occasionally wish i could reach for the screen in OS X but not often. On the other hand I one curse the limitations if the finger interface in iOS but that's just me.
In your dreams. Tim Cook said no chance. Your only hope is the Surface Pro 4 - sorry
It makes absolutely no difference, since Microsoft's frankentablet has next to zero traction in the market.
The tragedy is that the iPad's smart keyboard cover validates Microsoft's weird vision of hybrid PC/tablets.
I sincerely hope people would stop wishing the iPad to be a Macbook. There's a Macbook for that, only a fraction more expensive than an iPad pro with smart keyboard.
EDIT: changed 'smart cover' to 'smart keyboard cover'
The Surface Pro 4 sytlus is a POS. Its a $10 device.
The Apple Pencil is the same level as $200-$300 professional level tools.
Although the quality and the technology in the Apple pencil is better than the Microsoft one..... you are exaggerating just a bit.