Dude, do you think the typical computer user does any of this? No... Apple isn't saying it's a replacement for everyone, they are saying it's a replacement for many, many people... You know what those many, many people do? They use the web, they use Facebook, they use email, instragram, twitter, netflix, Facebook, Facebook and more Facebook. Maybe they use Office too. For those people, a $799 iPad pro is better than a $1,500.00 Surface Pro. I use office on my iPad 2 all the time, even as outdated as it is.
MS f'd up because these things cost as much if not more than MacBook Pro's, a lot of PC users biggest objection when it comes to buying a Mac is ultimately the cost. Now they see that these top of the line PC's that are coming out that are just as much, if not more. And yes, the Surface Pro is a PC and here's why I consider it a PC / Laptop and not a Tablet. Have you ever tried to use a Surface Pro / Windows 10 without an attached Keyboard? You really can't.... You can't do anything on it productively without the keyboard. So IMO, it's not a tablet, it's a laptop. Windows 10 is not a Mobile OS. It's a desktop OS, despite the fact that MS wants you to think it's UNIVERSAL. What does that mean to MS? It means it responds to touch...
You can get a 13" MacBook Pro for the same price as the low end Surface Pro 4, you can get a 15" MacBook Pro for the same price as a Surface Book or a tricked out Surface Pro. The MacBook Pro's will even run windows in a VM if you really, really, really want to run Windows.
So all those PC users who's biggest objection to going with Mac was cost... Well, do you think they are going to buy the Surface's? No. They won't spend that kind of money and if they do, why wouldn't they go with a Mac? Again, I'm talking about PC users who's biggest objection to going Mac is cost... Believe me, there are a lot of these people. Most of the people I know would go with Mac but they can't see spending $1K+ when they can buy a $300 - $400 Windows Laptop.
MS don't even need to develop their own chip, I'm sure Samsung would be happy to sell them their Exynos processors which are up there with the A9. Given that MS are trying to make W10 cross platform and run on their ARM based phones, a lot of the work is likely already done.
Hahaha! Exynos is "up there" with A9? Really? Show some benchmarks please.
MS don't even need to develop their own chip, I'm sure Samsung would be happy to sell them their Exynos processors which are up there with the A9. Given that MS are trying to make W10 cross platform and run on their ARM based phones, a lot of the work is likely already done.
What tune do you think Microsoft would use behind the TV ad tag line "Samsung Inside"?
That should be great for you. But based of what I have seen with my engineers and arch customers, they prefer working in large screens.
Surface Pro and Surface Book are great devices. Let's see how it develops during the next years. But right now, they are not doing bad.
You brought up a 2D CAD application on Surface; my retort was a full MCAD solution available for iOS including iPhone, iPad and iPad Pro.
MS made a conscious decision to stick with Intel, and I believe that will impair their mobile effort. You seem to be happy with your "not doing bad" devices, but my opinion is that the market is moving faster than Windows will adapt. Sure, applications from major software vendors are being updated for Surface, but these same companies are also creating new products not only for iOS, but specifically for the iPad Pro.
All this might be true but the Surface runs the full blown Win10 OS while the iPad Pro is hindered with iOS. If this has OS X then the comparisons would be valid.
iOS and ridiculously small available memory takes the iPad Pro out of competition with the SP3. For instance, you can't install Xcode, Visual Studio, Unity or Unreal Engine 4 on it. You could if it was OS X (and had some storage).
I have employees happy on OS X for Unity, UE4, and VS, and I'm sure the iPad Pro would be desirable device for some of them on smaller projects. Surface Pro 3 is ready to roll.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmay
News; in the case of Surface revenue, very profitable for MS is what Apple is seeing just from the Apple Watch, and I would note that MS hasn't yet been able to penetrate mobile beyond the three and a half percent that it now owns.
I have no idea how this relates to the fact that the Surface Pro 3 and iPad Pro are different or similar devices
You brought up a 2D CAD application on Surface; my retort was a full MCAD solution available for iOS including iPhone, iPad and iPad Pro.
MS made a conscious decision to stick with Intel, and I believe that will impair their mobile effort. You seem to be happy with your "not doing bad" devices, but my opinion is that the market is moving faster than Windows will adapt. Sure, applications from major software vendors are being updated for Surface, but these same companies are also creating new products not only for iOS, but specifically for the iPad Pro.
I do agree that the market will decide.
The problem with the Microsoft ecosystem is that touch centric application for tablet environment will not likely develop very rapidly as a majority of vendors will target the largest of that platforms market - which is laptop/desktop oriented and any touch type stuff will be a generally poorly designed add-on.
What's with the tech pundits foaming about the iPad being called Pro and yet they don't blink when Microsoft calls their underpowered overpriced contraption Pro?
The decision by Apple to start making their own CPU/GPU all those years ago is really starting to pay off, now that they have caught up with the i5 performance. It would also be good not to have to rely on AMD and Nvidia for graphics drivers.
What's with the tech pundits foaming about the iPad being called Pro and yet they don't blink when Microsoft calls their underpowered overpriced contraption Pro?
The whole label "pro" is moronic.... use cases are pro or consumer oriented... which means pretty-well anything can be pro or anything can be consumer generally speaking.
Focusing on specs over use cases is also stupid..... I just find it insane people foam at the mouth over 3Ghz vs 3.4Ghz - yet the majority have their CPU idling most of the time (and if they were not the battery would be wiped in no time and they would be using their devices to cook eggs)
I though we would see the end of trolls on this site after the iPhone totally demolished Samsung. I don't see Samsung trolls here anymore.
But now they got replaced by Surface trolls. Friken pathetic. If you clowns love the Surface so much go hang on on a Microsoft forum, not here. At the Samsung phones had something the iPhone didn't for a while (large screen). While the Surface is nothing more than a laptop that tries to masquerade as a mobile tablet.
I see, this is a religious temple of Apple fanboy trolls and all those that do not bow down and worship should be burned at the stake
You must be living in a cave if you think that surface line of computers has no traction. Not only has it become very profitable for Microsoft it has sparked a revolution in 2 in 1 devices that have arrived from all manufacturer, including apple (even if their attempt is extremelly por and doomed to fail). The Surface pro 4 and Surface book are in a completely different league to the toy that is the ipad "pro" (should have been called the ipad +) since it still runs a mobile os, has no real ports, lacks simple things like file management and compatibility with the great majority of peripherals, all of which are indispensable to any real professional.
These are the kinds of delusions that made Microsoft the laughing-stock of the industry. It's heart-warming to see as many folks like you as possible validate their outrageously retarded strategies. If enough of you are doing it, that only means more Ballmerian comedy for the rest of us to enjoy. After all, Satya is just a more attractive, somewhat less brain-damaged Ballmer. A Microsoft company-man through and through. The results of which are obvious.
The Surface line of frankentablets are a market failure, and whatever comparatively meagre profits MS managed to make on them are only a part of the temporary reprieve before Apple's latest and greatest sends Microsoft's best effort (yes, THAT is their best effort – sad, right?) into a race to the bottom with all the other box-assemblers. We all know how the Surface story will end.
There is no 2-in-1 "revolution" when nearly everyone but Apple is struggling to sell their boxes in a PC market that is gradually contracting under the weight of the mobile end of the biz.
Additionally, anyone can do their own hardware and software. Doing it well, however, is an entirely different matter, and Apple's got about a thirty year head-start in this area. And comparing Apples to a lot of bad oranges, it really shows.
You can draw as big a line in the sand as you like between "consumer" and "professional", and "consumption" and "real work", but the numbers will tell the tale (and they are), not ignorant labels that you'd like to be true.
Exactly. Microsoft sold about a million in all of FY2015. Laughable. Even if FY2016 is 3x or 5x that number. (Which it won't be).
Actually - my estimate would be closer to 5 million units (1.3 million in one quarter early in 2015). You are misreading the research. 5 million is not that bad.... but it is not "great" if you compare it to the tablet market as a whole. If you compare it to the laptop market - it is a reasonably good number.
Whatever. You can spin it any way you want.
To put it into perspective, consider that Apple sold between 50M-60M iPads in the past four quarters. In a year that was down over 15% from a year ago.
Hahaha! Exynos is "up there" with A9? Really? Show some benchmarks please.
Ok, you got me. I was very recently reading about the new Exynos 8 Octa 8890 with custom cores, an integrated modem and claimed 30% improvement in specs over the 7420.
But, even now, the 7420 still has the same multi-core performance as the A9: Exynos 7420 4404 vs A9 4404 in the 6S.
Those of us who actually work in IT know that it's a royal pain to integrate Apple computers into a corporate IT environment. iPad Pro is still hobbled by iOS which does not offer Java or flash support (not arguing that's not a good thing). Comparing the Surface Pro 4 to the iPad Pro is like comparing an airplane to a boat. They're not the same thing. I bought and iPad for a college student and we had to return it because many of the applications the student used were not supported on the iPad. Guess what we bought that is compatible with those applications?
To put it into perspective, consider that Apple sold between 50M-60M iPads in the past four quarters. In a year that was down over 15% from a year ago.
I was not spinning it, just correcting the record. As I said, if you are comparing sales of Surface to iPads it is a fraction..... if you put it more in the laptop category (which I do) -- it's sales are not horrible. Somehow someone was misrepresenting 1.3 million units in one quarter into less than that annually - which is really bad math..... Either way, I would not buy one.... does not interest me one bit.... If I were going for a laptop I would either buy the Macbook or Macbook Pro (but probably not the Air) - depending on the use case I was looking to fill.
Oh, no, no, no....we can't have those kind of statements backed by facts flying around the blogosphere. Apple faster and more affordable than a competitor's product? What on earth will all the Apple haters say?
Comments
Dude, do you think the typical computer user does any of this? No... Apple isn't saying it's a replacement for everyone, they are saying it's a replacement for many, many people... You know what those many, many people do? They use the web, they use Facebook, they use email, instragram, twitter, netflix, Facebook, Facebook and more Facebook. Maybe they use Office too. For those people, a $799 iPad pro is better than a $1,500.00 Surface Pro. I use office on my iPad 2 all the time, even as outdated as it is.
MS f'd up because these things cost as much if not more than MacBook Pro's, a lot of PC users biggest objection when it comes to buying a Mac is ultimately the cost. Now they see that these top of the line PC's that are coming out that are just as much, if not more. And yes, the Surface Pro is a PC and here's why I consider it a PC / Laptop and not a Tablet. Have you ever tried to use a Surface Pro / Windows 10 without an attached Keyboard? You really can't.... You can't do anything on it productively without the keyboard. So IMO, it's not a tablet, it's a laptop. Windows 10 is not a Mobile OS. It's a desktop OS, despite the fact that MS wants you to think it's UNIVERSAL. What does that mean to MS? It means it responds to touch...
You can get a 13" MacBook Pro for the same price as the low end Surface Pro 4, you can get a 15" MacBook Pro for the same price as a Surface Book or a tricked out Surface Pro. The MacBook Pro's will even run windows in a VM if you really, really, really want to run Windows.
So all those PC users who's biggest objection to going with Mac was cost... Well, do you think they are going to buy the Surface's? No. They won't spend that kind of money and if they do, why wouldn't they go with a Mac? Again, I'm talking about PC users who's biggest objection to going Mac is cost... Believe me, there are a lot of these people. Most of the people I know would go with Mac but they can't see spending $1K+ when they can buy a $300 - $400 Windows Laptop.
Hahaha! Exynos is "up there" with A9? Really? Show some benchmarks please.
What tune do you think Microsoft would use behind the TV ad tag line "Samsung Inside"?
Well some of us are on because we are Apple enthusiasts so it's an understandable comment really.
That should be great for you. But based of what I have seen with my engineers and arch customers, they prefer working in large screens.
Surface Pro and Surface Book are great devices. Let's see how it develops during the next years. But right now, they are not doing bad.
You brought up a 2D CAD application on Surface; my retort was a full MCAD solution available for iOS including iPhone, iPad and iPad Pro.
MS made a conscious decision to stick with Intel, and I believe that will impair their mobile effort. You seem to be happy with your "not doing bad" devices, but my opinion is that the market is moving faster than Windows will adapt. Sure, applications from major software vendors are being updated for Surface, but these same companies are also creating new products not only for iOS, but specifically for the iPad Pro.
I do agree that the market will decide.
"Hindered"? More like "liberated"!
iOS and ridiculously small available memory takes the iPad Pro out of competition with the SP3. For instance, you can't install Xcode, Visual Studio, Unity or Unreal Engine 4 on it. You could if it was OS X (and had some storage).
I have employees happy on OS X for Unity, UE4, and VS, and I'm sure the iPad Pro would be desirable device for some of them on smaller projects. Surface Pro 3 is ready to roll.
Quote:
News; in the case of Surface revenue, very profitable for MS is what Apple is seeing just from the Apple Watch, and I would note that MS hasn't yet been able to penetrate mobile beyond the three and a half percent that it now owns.
I have no idea how this relates to the fact that the Surface Pro 3 and iPad Pro are different or similar devices
You brought up a 2D CAD application on Surface; my retort was a full MCAD solution available for iOS including iPhone, iPad and iPad Pro.
MS made a conscious decision to stick with Intel, and I believe that will impair their mobile effort. You seem to be happy with your "not doing bad" devices, but my opinion is that the market is moving faster than Windows will adapt. Sure, applications from major software vendors are being updated for Surface, but these same companies are also creating new products not only for iOS, but specifically for the iPad Pro.
I do agree that the market will decide.
The problem with the Microsoft ecosystem is that touch centric application for tablet environment will not likely develop very rapidly as a majority of vendors will target the largest of that platforms market - which is laptop/desktop oriented and any touch type stuff will be a generally poorly designed add-on.
What's with the tech pundits foaming about the iPad being called Pro and yet they don't blink when Microsoft calls their underpowered overpriced contraption Pro?
The decision by Apple to start making their own CPU/GPU all those years ago is really starting to pay off, now that they have caught up with the i5 performance. It would also be good not to have to rely on AMD and Nvidia for graphics drivers.
What's with the tech pundits foaming about the iPad being called Pro and yet they don't blink when Microsoft calls their underpowered overpriced contraption Pro?
The whole label "pro" is moronic.... use cases are pro or consumer oriented... which means pretty-well anything can be pro or anything can be consumer generally speaking.
Focusing on specs over use cases is also stupid..... I just find it insane people foam at the mouth over 3Ghz vs 3.4Ghz - yet the majority have their CPU idling most of the time (and if they were not the battery would be wiped in no time and they would be using their devices to cook eggs)
I though we would see the end of trolls on this site after the iPhone totally demolished Samsung. I don't see Samsung trolls here anymore.
But now they got replaced by Surface trolls. Friken pathetic. If you clowns love the Surface so much go hang on on a Microsoft forum, not here. At the Samsung phones had something the iPhone didn't for a while (large screen). While the Surface is nothing more than a laptop that tries to masquerade as a mobile tablet.
I see, this is a religious temple of Apple fanboy trolls and all those that do not bow down and worship should be burned at the stake
until they do.
You must be living in a cave if you think that surface line of computers has no traction. Not only has it become very profitable for Microsoft it has sparked a revolution in 2 in 1 devices that have arrived from all manufacturer, including apple (even if their attempt is extremelly por and doomed to fail). The Surface pro 4 and Surface book are in a completely different league to the toy that is the ipad "pro" (should have been called the ipad +) since it still runs a mobile os, has no real ports, lacks simple things like file management and compatibility with the great majority of peripherals, all of which are indispensable to any real professional.
These are the kinds of delusions that made Microsoft the laughing-stock of the industry. It's heart-warming to see as many folks like you as possible validate their outrageously retarded strategies. If enough of you are doing it, that only means more Ballmerian comedy for the rest of us to enjoy. After all, Satya is just a more attractive, somewhat less brain-damaged Ballmer. A Microsoft company-man through and through. The results of which are obvious.
The Surface line of frankentablets are a market failure, and whatever comparatively meagre profits MS managed to make on them are only a part of the temporary reprieve before Apple's latest and greatest sends Microsoft's best effort (yes, THAT is their best effort – sad, right?) into a race to the bottom with all the other box-assemblers. We all know how the Surface story will end.
There is no 2-in-1 "revolution" when nearly everyone but Apple is struggling to sell their boxes in a PC market that is gradually contracting under the weight of the mobile end of the biz.
Additionally, anyone can do their own hardware and software. Doing it well, however, is an entirely different matter, and Apple's got about a thirty year head-start in this area. And comparing Apples to a lot of bad oranges, it really shows.
You can draw as big a line in the sand as you like between "consumer" and "professional", and "consumption" and "real work", but the numbers will tell the tale (and they are), not ignorant labels that you'd like to be true.
Exactly. Microsoft sold about a million in all of FY2015. Laughable. Even if FY2016 is 3x or 5x that number. (Which it won't be).
Actually - my estimate would be closer to 5 million units (1.3 million in one quarter early in 2015). You are misreading the research. 5 million is not that bad.... but it is not "great" if you compare it to the tablet market as a whole. If you compare it to the laptop market - it is a reasonably good number.
Whatever. You can spin it any way you want.
To put it into perspective, consider that Apple sold between 50M-60M iPads in the past four quarters. In a year that was down over 15% from a year ago.
Hahaha! Exynos is "up there" with A9? Really? Show some benchmarks please.
Ok, you got me. I was very recently reading about the new Exynos 8 Octa 8890 with custom cores, an integrated modem and claimed 30% improvement in specs over the 7420.
But, even now, the 7420 still has the same multi-core performance as the A9: Exynos 7420 4404 vs A9 4404 in the 6S.
Which applications? Be specific.
Whatever. You can spin it any way you want.
To put it into perspective, consider that Apple sold between 50M-60M iPads in the past four quarters. In a year that was down over 15% from a year ago.
I was not spinning it, just correcting the record. As I said, if you are comparing sales of Surface to iPads it is a fraction..... if you put it more in the laptop category (which I do) -- it's sales are not horrible. Somehow someone was misrepresenting 1.3 million units in one quarter into less than that annually - which is really bad math..... Either way, I would not buy one.... does not interest me one bit.... If I were going for a laptop I would either buy the Macbook or Macbook Pro (but probably not the Air) - depending on the use case I was looking to fill.