It is for those who want to use their iPad in upright position, like a laptop.
Having said that. A big hurdle for my dad to use the laptop is the cursor and the keyboard. The touch interface is so much more intuitive to him. Adding a keyboard and pointing device would therefore clutter his iPad experience. So, I find Apple's sudden move to make the iPad look like a laptop somewhat strange. You're going to estrange a large demographic from the computer again.
People who "get it" have already ordered an iPad Pro and are immune to such pointless criticisms.
Jobs also said "let's not invent another one" in reference to the stylus.
I don't have an issue with Apple making a stylus for the iPad, but many on here ridiculed Samsung, and Microsoft for including a stylus (that aren't required for the UI) with their tablets/smartphones using the very same quotes Jobs made about a stylus. Those same people are now gushing over the Pencil. That's called hypocrisy.
No it's not, because you don't understand what Jobs said. We do. He never said that a stylus, per se, was bad. He said that if it's included, because if it's required, to use the basic functionality of the device, then the product failed. And he was right.
The Pencil isn't required to use this device. But from the very beginning, styluses have been offered by Apple, because they acknowledge that there are times when it's useful. I see no disconnect here, just some people being stuck up somewhere about it.
Yes, I have used them and are better than the previous version, and I even consider the tactile feel better than the MacBook. MacBook's trackpads are the best, that's an easy one. But we are talking about the iPad Pro. It's easy to said that the Surface Pro has a better trackpad and keyboard.
So I have an iPad Pro + Smart Keyboard for occasional usage, since it's won't give the best experience with it's keyboard. Is that what you saying?
Maybe for your type of usage, the on screen keyboard is good enough for you, but not for me and neither for the way Tim Cook positioned the iPad Pro as a possible desktop replacement.
I haven't used the new Pro keyboard yet. Interesting that you've got a keyboard already. Because I read a lot of posts from people who make comments about things that it's obvious from what they're saying, they've never used, or even read about. I don't do that. So I can't make the comparison for myself yet. But from what I've read, it's not bad. Some think the keys are better than the ones for the Surface 4, and some think they're worse. Take your pick. I can't even say that a poor trackpad is better than no trackpad. I can say that the cursor keys are effective for most things, and one can get used to them stead. I know people who can't use a trackpad, or hate a mouse. It's very personal.
Except the stylus for Samsung/Microsoft devices are not necessary for the operation of the tablet. My friend has a Note smartphone and never once used the stylus. It is included but it is optional.
That's true for the Samsung Note, but not so true for the Surface Pro, unless you also have the keyboard, which, really, is needed for almost everything there. The point is that you don't NEED the keyboard or the Pencil here, not that they can't be helpful for some things.
And when some people make the statement that THEY need it, that doesn't mean anything for the vast number of people who don't. If the vast number need it, then that's different. So for the Note, it's a convenience for some things, but it's not needed to use the device. The Surface needs it, because it's just a Windows computer, nothing else. And a Windows computer without a keyboard and trackpad, or mouse, is almost unusable with most Windows software. Like it or not, that's the fact.
They give the stylus with it because Microsoft knows that unless you buy the keyboard, it's almost impossible to do much without the stylus.
That's wrong about Jobs. His point, which he explained, was that if a mobile device required a stylus to operate, it failed. Apple's mobile devices never required a stylus to operate, and that includes the Pro.
A short story I relate when this statement comes up is that when I bought the first 3G ipad, in May 2010, the sales person in the Apple Store asked me if I wanr]Ted a stylus with it, as I was intending g to do things with it that would be easier with a stylus, I bought it. Jobs was around back then, and you know he approved that for sale, as well those that came after. Jobs had nothing against a stylus. What he didn't like was the idea that you would need a stylus for the basic functionality of the device. This is cleverly designed to disallow that functionality.'
I don't see the need for mouse or trackpad support, though I wouldn't say it was a bad thing to add either. I don't understand why you don't understand that the way iOS 9 gives cursor support isn't good. It's very good.
I can't speak for others, but for myself, I see nothing wrong in offering more, even if I don't see the need for it.
It's fine, I'm not complaining about the cursor support, however it is a portable keyboard and I still need to reach over to navigate the UI. Apple's normal bluetooth desktop keyboard is also a much better typing experience and when you do as much typing as I do, you want the most comfortable keyboard that is possible. Even Logitech's new iPad Pro keyboard feels better to type on as it resembles Apple's desktop keyboard fairly closely, in fact when I close my eyes, I can't tell the difference, it's that good. However both of these options lack cursor movement. Simply put, when working at my desk I don't want to have to use accessories meant for mobility, which because of the size of the iPad Pro is where I'll use it mostly. I just want to use my Apple keyboard and mouse with it, it's the absolute best solution for me. I'll just wait for JailBreak to get what I want as it's a very simple fix, takes 2 minutes to do. I just wish Apple wasn't so controlling over the way they want us to use our own devices. I need to JailBreak anyway as I refuse to use a system in which I cannot select my own default apps.
It's fine, I'm not complaining about the cursor support, however it is a portable keyboard and I still need to reach over to navigate the UI. Apple's normal bluetooth desktop keyboard is also a much better typing experience and when you do as much typing as I do, you want the most comfortable keyboard that is possible. Even Logitech's new iPad Pro keyboard feels better to type on as it resembles Apple's desktop keyboard fairly closely, in fact when I close my eyes, I can't tell the difference, it's that good. However both of these options lack cursor movement. Simply put, when working at my desk I don't want to have to use accessories meant for mobility, which because of the size of the iPad Pro is where I'll use it mostly. I just want to use my Apple keyboard and mouse with it, it's the absolute best solution for me. I'll just wait for JailBreak to get what I want as it's a very simple fix, takes 2 minutes to do. I just wish Apple wasn't so controlling over the way they want us to use our own devices. I need to JailBreak anyway as I refuse to use a system in which I cannot select my own default apps.
It doesn't matter which keyboard you use. Apple is offering one. You don't have to buy it. That's the whole thing about this. You never had to buy an Apple keyboard. The argument here shouldn't be about Apple's keyboard. So other manufacturers will make keyboards that use Apple's new connector. Some will be terrible, and some will be great. That's the way it's always been with any product. You have a choice.
The other day, when I was looking on Amazon for a carrying case for our Pros, and I found some good small ones for the MacBook Pro 13" that were cheaper than I was prepared to spend, but nice enough so that we bought two, I saw a lot of cases that had full size keyboards for the Pro. It wasn't out for most people yet, but the keyboard cases were. All of them were Bluetooth, as to be expected. The prices for the whole thing, case and keyboard, ranged from $19.95 to over $150. Other than not connecting directly, some will be good, and some bad. But they are available.
They don't lack cursor movement. How can you say that when the standard cursor controls are right there on the bottom right side of the keyboard, where they always are?
It is for those who want to use their iPad in upright position, like a laptop.
Having said that. A big hurdle for my dad to use the laptop is the cursor and the keyboard. The touch interface is so much more intuitive to him. Adding a keyboard and pointing device would therefore clutter his iPad experience. So, I find Apple's sudden move to make the iPad look like a laptop somewhat strange. You're going to estrange a large demographic from the computer again.
People who "get it" have already ordered an iPad Pro and are immune to such pointless criticisms.
I haven't used the new Pro keyboard yet. Interesting that you've got a keyboard already. Because I read a lot of posts from people who make comments about things that it's obvious from what they're saying, they've never used, or even read about. I don't do that. So I can't make the comparison for myself yet. But from what I've read, it's not bad. Some think the keys are better than the ones for the Surface 4, and some think they're worse. Take your pick. I can't even say that a poor trackpad is better than no trackpad. I can say that the cursor keys are effective for most things, and one can get used to them stead. I know people who can't use a trackpad, or hate a mouse. It's very personal.
I haven't used the keyboard, but all the reviews mention it's low travel, and I don't like that. I love ThinkPad keyboards (best on the market, even over Apple), and I loved the keyboard on my previous MacBook Pro (BTW, one of the things I miss most in my MBA). But then we have the MacBook, one of the worst keyboard I have ever used, and looks like the Smart Keyboard have the same tactile feeling. When you add there is no backlit, no adjustable angle and have to reach there screen to navigate apps, for me it's awful.
Maybe you prefer to type in a flat surface, so you will feel at home with the Smart Keyboard. BTW, since the keyboard is not backlit and has no trackpad, why is so expensive, even over the Surface Pro keyboard?
That's true for the Samsung Note, but not so true for the Surface Pro, unless you also have the keyboard, which, really, is needed for almost everything there. The point is that you don't NEED the keyboard or the Pencil here, not that they can't be helpful for some things.
And when some people make the statement that THEY need it, that doesn't mean anything for the vast number of people who don't. If the vast number need it, then that's different. So for the Note, it's a convenience for some things, but it's not needed to use the device. The Surface needs it, because it's just a Windows computer, nothing else. And a Windows computer without a keyboard and trackpad, or mouse, is almost unusable with most Windows software. Like it or not, that's the fact.
They give the stylus with it because Microsoft knows that unless you buy the keyboard, it's almost impossible to do much without the stylus.
I don't agree with you. What defines if you need a keyboard or Pencil / Pen is the apps and workflow. Do I need the keyboard or Pen in a Surface Pro if I only browse the internet, watch movies in Netflix and hear music? Not at all. Do an artist need the Pencil to draw in an iPad Pro? To have the best results, yes, he needs it. Same as some who works with long spreadsheets in an iPad pro, and will have a better experience with the Smart Keyboard. Again, what defines what add-ons you need are the apps and workflow, not the device.
There are plenty of handwriting recognition apps available for iOS. You can even replace the onscreen keyboard with one, MyScript Stylus. There is also this thing called a search engine, I would suggest you learn how it works, "best handwriting apps iOS".
Thanks for suggesting MyScript Stylus, but the reviews are poor, and it requires writing into a box with the output appearing above (unlike the Newton, which just converted in full screen on the fly. Before posting I also checked out Notability, Smart Writing Tool, Paper by 53, Noteshelf, Penultimate (which I bought), Remarks, Ghostwriter, Notes Plus, Good Notes, neuNotes, Note Taker HD, TouchWriter HD and a few others. None look anywhere as good as Newton 2000, so I guess I'll keep looking.
I haven't used the keyboard, but all the reviews mention it's low travel, and I don't like that. I love ThinkPad keyboards (best on the market, even over Apple), and I loved the keyboard on my previous MacBook Pro (BTW, one of the things I miss most in my MBA). But then we have the MacBook, one of the worst keyboard I have ever used, and looks like the Smart Keyboard have the same tactile feeling. When you add there is no backlit, no adjustable angle and have to reach there screen to navigate apps, for me it's awful.
Maybe you prefer to type in a flat surface, so you will feel at home with the Smart Keyboard. BTW, since the keyboard is not backlit and has no trackpad, why is so expensive, even over the Surface Pro keyboard?
Keyboards are very personal. We use, and like keyboards today, that 25 years ago we would have considered unacceptable. The two best computer keyboards I've ever used were the ibm keyboard, and the Apple keyboard from back then. But even back then, those keyboards cost $300. Much more today, with inflation. But almost no one will pay that kind of money for a keyboard today. So we get what we pay for.
Why does Apple's cost more than Microsoft's? I don't know, but Microsoft tends to subsidize hardware to sell it. Possibly they're subsidizing the keyboards. Possibly Apple's is higher quality.
But it doesn't matter, because as I said, there are plenty of Bluetooth keyboard cases for the Pro out already, and the Logitech is just the first of many connected models. You'll have plenty of choice, and that's what matters.
I don't agree with you. What defines if you need a keyboard or Pencil / Pen is the apps and workflow. Do I need the keyboard or Pen in a Surface Pro if I only browse the internet, watch movies in Netflix and hear music? Not at all. Do an artist need the Pencil to draw in an iPad Pro? To have the best results, yes, he needs it. Same as some who works with long spreadsheets in an iPad pro, and will have a better experience with the Smart Keyboard. Again, what defines what add-ons you need are the apps and workflow, not the device.
That's fine. Don't agree. I'm not forcing you to.
Nobody buys a Surface Pro to just do what you say. They buy a cheap Android model, and you know it. They buy a Surface Pro because it's a light, thin Windows computer. There's no other reason to buy it. And considering that, you need the stylus when no external keyboard is used, and that's why Microsoft includes it. You know that, I know that, and everyone knows that. Please don't be disingenuous.
For most everything, you have no need for a stylus with any iOS tablet. Most of,the apps that now incorporate Pencil capabilities have been used very well for several years already. I know, because I use most of those apps. But the Pencil will make them better. Even so, not everyone will move to the Pencil because they're used to doing things the way they've always done it.
Why does Apple's cost more than Microsoft's? I don't know, but Microsoft tends to subsidize hardware to sell it. Possibly they're subsidizing the keyboards. Possibly Apple's is higher quality.
Other possibility is Apple overcharging the Smart Keybord. The Surface Pro keyboard has good tactile feel, backlit and trackpad and cost less. Doesn't make sense how Apple charge more for a keyboard missing those features.
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But it doesn't matter, because as I said, there are plenty of Bluetooth keyboard cases for the Pro out already, and the Logitech is just the first of many connected models. You'll have plenty of choice, and that's what matters.
Since iOS don't support external pointing devices, the iPad Pro will be uncomfortable with any external keyboard and working in a vertical position. It's the same as the interaction with a touchscreen notebook.
I didn't thought you were forcing you POV. I was just pointing out I have a different opinion.
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Nobody buys a Surface Pro to just do what you say. They buy a cheap Android model, and you know it. They buy a Surface Pro because it's a light, thin Windows computer. There's no other reason to buy it. And considering that, you need the stylus when no external keyboard is used, and that's why Microsoft includes it. You know that, I know that, and everyone knows that. Please don't be disingenuous.
My post was an example on how you can use the SP4 without stylus and keyboard, using only touch based applications. And, for some reason you still think the stylus is a requirement. Like I posted before, you workflow and needs define the accessories you device needs. I don't need the stylus or keyboard to play games, browse the internet or watch movies. Like you said, you can do the same things in other tablets, but the SP4 is capable of a good experience without keyboard and mouse depending in what you need. And I don't need the stylus to navigate. It is included for handwriting in OneNote.
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For most everything, you have no need for a stylus with any iOS tablet. Most of,the apps that now incorporate Pencil capabilities have been used very well for several years already. I know, because I use most of those apps. But the Pencil will make them better. Even so, not everyone will move to the Pencil because they're used to doing things the way they've always done it.
That's the same as the SP4 Pen, it make a better experience for OneNote and Adobe CS, among other applications. Still is not a requirement for touch optimised apps like Netflix, MS Office Mobile and many other apps.
My post was an example on how you can use the SP4 without stylus and keyboard, using only touch based applications. And, for some reason you still think the stylus is a requirement. Like I posted before, you workflow and needs define the accessories you device needs. I don't need the stylus or keyboard to play games, browse the internet or watch movies. Like you said, you can do the same things in other tablets, but the SP4 is capable of a good experience without keyboard and mouse depending in what you need. And I don't need the stylus to navigate. It is included for handwriting in OneNote.
That's the same as the SP4 Pen, it make a better experience for OneNote and Adobe CS, among other applications. Still is not a requirement for touch optimised apps like Netflix, MS Office Mobile and many other apps.
You can't reason with them but I agree with you. I also just use my stylus for Photoshop, Sketchbook and OneNote. Also when I take my Surface on the road I never, ever bring the keyboard with me. The virtual keyboard is quite good and I've actually learned how to touch type on it. Like with the iPad Pro, it's almost a full size keyboard. Though the Surface Pro isn't as tabletity, made up word, as the iPad Pro, using it without a stylus and keyboard is still extremely useful.
On a side note, you have got to buy the new UAG, Urban Armored Gear case for it. It's fantastic and even matches the colors of the keyboard, if you use it.
So much for the kickstand relic, it all goes to shit if you are going to be using a case, and who doesn't use a case with their tablet's nowadays. Another brilliantly envisioned invention by MS, a stand up mechanism that almost excludes the very idea of a case, the no. 1 accessory, of a tablet.
And they are inexcusable for not having fused the screen to the glass to reduce glare and double sightings with the stylus when you draw, even amazon has fused the damn things way back when.
Having said that you guys are making some valid points. Now can someone look in the os x thread and get back to me on some basic finder functionality I can't seem to get it to work? .... Wth smilies shortcuts don't work in the new interface?
Other possibility is Apple overcharging the Smart Keybord. The Surface Pro keyboard has good tactile feel, backlit and trackpad and cost less. Doesn't make sense how Apple charge more for a keyboard missing those features.
Since iOS don't support external pointing devices, the iPad Pro will be uncomfortable with any external keyboard and working in a vertical position. It's the same as the interaction with a touchscreen notebook.
I doubt Apple is overcharging. It's much more likely Microsoft is losing money on that required accessory. I was in the Apple Store today, and finally tried out the Pencil and keyboard. Quite frankly, the keyboard felt much better than expected. It has sufficient movement and the keys don't feel mushy. I would never expect a cover/keyboard to have the travel of a regular keyboard, whether the Surface Pro, or,the iPad Pro model. But this felt at least as good as the new one for the surface, and much better than the one for the Surface Pro 3. Whether slightly better, or worse than the Pro 4 keyboard was hard to tell since obviously, there was no Surface there to compare it to, and recollections can be slightly fuzzy when two things are close in performance. I've read in some reciews that the iPad Pro keyboard feels sturdier.
I do think that you really need to try this before commenting further.
My post was an example on how you can use the SP4 without stylus and keyboard, using only touch based applications. And, for some reason you still think the stylus is a requirement. Like I posted before, you workflow and needs define the accessories you device needs. I don't need the stylus or keyboard to play games, browse the internet or watch movies. Like you said, you can do the same things in other tablets, but the SP4 is capable of a good experience without keyboard and mouse depending in what you need. And I don't need the stylus to navigate. It is included for handwriting in OneNote.
That's the same as the SP4 Pen, it make a better experience for OneNote and Adobe CS, among other applications. Still is not a requirement for touch optimised apps like Netflix, MS Office Mobile and many other apps.
The stylus is a requirement for a Surface no matter what you say. Microsoft knows it's a requirement, or they wouldn't have included it. It's pretty simple. Just read the reviews, and you'll see for yourself. When I used the various Surface models over the past three years, it was easy to see that the stylus was needed. The first 10.5" Pros were a real joke. That screen was so small, even using the stylus it was easy to make errors.
What is so interesting is that other than for the aborted Win 8, Microsoft has made few concessions to stylus, or touch usage on the Surface tablets, or for OEM models. It's not that much better than in 2002, when Gat4s made the statement, commenting on the new Microsoft "Tablets", which we all called convertibles, that most people would be buying one of them as their computing device by 2005. He couldn't have been more wrong.
Those laptops had 13" to 15" screens, and everyone agreed (again, just go back and read the articles and reviews) that those screens were too small for a stylus equipped Windows.cso the only uses for for vertical markets, such as warehouses, and other purposes where software consisted of boxes to tap with the stylus, and a signed name at the bottom. For everything else, it was too difficult.
So now we have these Win 10 tablets with a 12.3" screen. But Microsoft added almost nothing to accommodate those smaller screens, except to lower the emulated resolution to about 1280 X 1024. They did that to get the features big enough so that you could tap them reliably with the stylus. Most are still too small for a finger. But, as you can see from the Ads, they expect you to buy the keyboard too.
That's just a fact of life with a Windows tablet. You can argue all you want. I just don't see how you've used those without understanding it.
I doubt Apple is overcharging. It's much more likely Microsoft is losing money on that required accessory. Whether slightly better, or worse than the Pro 4 keyboard was hard to tell since obviously, there was no Surface there to compare it to, and recollections can be slightly fuzzy when two things are close in performance.
I don't think MS is losing money in the SP accessories. Again, MS has a better, more functional keyboard for less. Looks like Apple is overcharging.
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I was in the Apple Store today, and finally tried out the Pencil and keyboard. Quite frankly, the keyboard felt much better than expected. It has sufficient movement and the keys don't feel mushy. I would never expect a cover/keyboard to have the travel of a regular keyboard, whether the Surface Pro, or,the iPad Pro model. But this felt at least as good as the new one for the surface, and much better than the one for the Surface Pro 3.
Regarding the SP3 keyboard, that was awful, and one of the reasons I didn't buy a SP3. But that keyboard is no more, and the new one is far better.
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I've read in some reciews that the iPad Pro keyboard feels sturdier.
The SP4 keyboard can be attached for an angled position, and there is some flex in that position. But you can use it flat, as the Smart Keyboard, if the flex affect your typing.
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I do think that you really need to try this before commenting further.
Comments
People who "get it" have already ordered an iPad Pro and are immune to such pointless criticisms.
No it's not, because you don't understand what Jobs said. We do. He never said that a stylus, per se, was bad. He said that if it's included, because if it's required, to use the basic functionality of the device, then the product failed. And he was right.
The Pencil isn't required to use this device. But from the very beginning, styluses have been offered by Apple, because they acknowledge that there are times when it's useful. I see no disconnect here, just some people being stuck up somewhere about it.
I haven't used the new Pro keyboard yet. Interesting that you've got a keyboard already. Because I read a lot of posts from people who make comments about things that it's obvious from what they're saying, they've never used, or even read about. I don't do that. So I can't make the comparison for myself yet. But from what I've read, it's not bad. Some think the keys are better than the ones for the Surface 4, and some think they're worse. Take your pick. I can't even say that a poor trackpad is better than no trackpad. I can say that the cursor keys are effective for most things, and one can get used to them stead. I know people who can't use a trackpad, or hate a mouse. It's very personal.
That's true for the Samsung Note, but not so true for the Surface Pro, unless you also have the keyboard, which, really, is needed for almost everything there. The point is that you don't NEED the keyboard or the Pencil here, not that they can't be helpful for some things.
And when some people make the statement that THEY need it, that doesn't mean anything for the vast number of people who don't. If the vast number need it, then that's different. So for the Note, it's a convenience for some things, but it's not needed to use the device. The Surface needs it, because it's just a Windows computer, nothing else. And a Windows computer without a keyboard and trackpad, or mouse, is almost unusable with most Windows software. Like it or not, that's the fact.
They give the stylus with it because Microsoft knows that unless you buy the keyboard, it's almost impossible to do much without the stylus.
You mean its supposed to be used for what a pencil is normally for. What a concept.
It's fine, I'm not complaining about the cursor support, however it is a portable keyboard and I still need to reach over to navigate the UI. Apple's normal bluetooth desktop keyboard is also a much better typing experience and when you do as much typing as I do, you want the most comfortable keyboard that is possible. Even Logitech's new iPad Pro keyboard feels better to type on as it resembles Apple's desktop keyboard fairly closely, in fact when I close my eyes, I can't tell the difference, it's that good. However both of these options lack cursor movement. Simply put, when working at my desk I don't want to have to use accessories meant for mobility, which because of the size of the iPad Pro is where I'll use it mostly. I just want to use my Apple keyboard and mouse with it, it's the absolute best solution for me. I'll just wait for JailBreak to get what I want as it's a very simple fix, takes 2 minutes to do. I just wish Apple wasn't so controlling over the way they want us to use our own devices. I need to JailBreak anyway as I refuse to use a system in which I cannot select my own default apps.
It doesn't matter which keyboard you use. Apple is offering one. You don't have to buy it. That's the whole thing about this. You never had to buy an Apple keyboard. The argument here shouldn't be about Apple's keyboard. So other manufacturers will make keyboards that use Apple's new connector. Some will be terrible, and some will be great. That's the way it's always been with any product. You have a choice.
The other day, when I was looking on Amazon for a carrying case for our Pros, and I found some good small ones for the MacBook Pro 13" that were cheaper than I was prepared to spend, but nice enough so that we bought two, I saw a lot of cases that had full size keyboards for the Pro. It wasn't out for most people yet, but the keyboard cases were. All of them were Bluetooth, as to be expected. The prices for the whole thing, case and keyboard, ranged from $19.95 to over $150. Other than not connecting directly, some will be good, and some bad. But they are available.
They don't lack cursor movement. How can you say that when the standard cursor controls are right there on the bottom right side of the keyboard, where they always are?
I'm not impressed with the Jailbreak regiment.
It is for those who want to use their iPad in upright position, like a laptop.
Having said that. A big hurdle for my dad to use the laptop is the cursor and the keyboard. The touch interface is so much more intuitive to him. Adding a keyboard and pointing device would therefore clutter his iPad experience. So, I find Apple's sudden move to make the iPad look like a laptop somewhat strange. You're going to estrange a large demographic from the computer again.
People who "get it" have already ordered an iPad Pro and are immune to such pointless criticisms.
Everyone high on the bell-curve gets it....
I haven't used the new Pro keyboard yet. Interesting that you've got a keyboard already. Because I read a lot of posts from people who make comments about things that it's obvious from what they're saying, they've never used, or even read about. I don't do that. So I can't make the comparison for myself yet. But from what I've read, it's not bad. Some think the keys are better than the ones for the Surface 4, and some think they're worse. Take your pick. I can't even say that a poor trackpad is better than no trackpad. I can say that the cursor keys are effective for most things, and one can get used to them stead. I know people who can't use a trackpad, or hate a mouse. It's very personal.
I haven't used the keyboard, but all the reviews mention it's low travel, and I don't like that. I love ThinkPad keyboards (best on the market, even over Apple), and I loved the keyboard on my previous MacBook Pro (BTW, one of the things I miss most in my MBA). But then we have the MacBook, one of the worst keyboard I have ever used, and looks like the Smart Keyboard have the same tactile feeling. When you add there is no backlit, no adjustable angle and have to reach there screen to navigate apps, for me it's awful.
Maybe you prefer to type in a flat surface, so you will feel at home with the Smart Keyboard. BTW, since the keyboard is not backlit and has no trackpad, why is so expensive, even over the Surface Pro keyboard?
That's true for the Samsung Note, but not so true for the Surface Pro, unless you also have the keyboard, which, really, is needed for almost everything there. The point is that you don't NEED the keyboard or the Pencil here, not that they can't be helpful for some things.
And when some people make the statement that THEY need it, that doesn't mean anything for the vast number of people who don't. If the vast number need it, then that's different. So for the Note, it's a convenience for some things, but it's not needed to use the device. The Surface needs it, because it's just a Windows computer, nothing else. And a Windows computer without a keyboard and trackpad, or mouse, is almost unusable with most Windows software. Like it or not, that's the fact.
They give the stylus with it because Microsoft knows that unless you buy the keyboard, it's almost impossible to do much without the stylus.
I don't agree with you. What defines if you need a keyboard or Pencil / Pen is the apps and workflow. Do I need the keyboard or Pen in a Surface Pro if I only browse the internet, watch movies in Netflix and hear music? Not at all. Do an artist need the Pencil to draw in an iPad Pro? To have the best results, yes, he needs it. Same as some who works with long spreadsheets in an iPad pro, and will have a better experience with the Smart Keyboard. Again, what defines what add-ons you need are the apps and workflow, not the device.
There are plenty of handwriting recognition apps available for iOS. You can even replace the onscreen keyboard with one, MyScript Stylus. There is also this thing called a search engine, I would suggest you learn how it works, "best handwriting apps iOS".
Thanks for suggesting MyScript Stylus, but the reviews are poor, and it requires writing into a box with the output appearing above (unlike the Newton, which just converted in full screen on the fly. Before posting I also checked out Notability, Smart Writing Tool, Paper by 53, Noteshelf, Penultimate (which I bought), Remarks, Ghostwriter, Notes Plus, Good Notes, neuNotes, Note Taker HD, TouchWriter HD and a few others. None look anywhere as good as Newton 2000, so I guess I'll keep looking.
Keyboards are very personal. We use, and like keyboards today, that 25 years ago we would have considered unacceptable. The two best computer keyboards I've ever used were the ibm keyboard, and the Apple keyboard from back then. But even back then, those keyboards cost $300. Much more today, with inflation. But almost no one will pay that kind of money for a keyboard today. So we get what we pay for.
Why does Apple's cost more than Microsoft's? I don't know, but Microsoft tends to subsidize hardware to sell it. Possibly they're subsidizing the keyboards. Possibly Apple's is higher quality.
But it doesn't matter, because as I said, there are plenty of Bluetooth keyboard cases for the Pro out already, and the Logitech is just the first of many connected models. You'll have plenty of choice, and that's what matters.
That's fine. Don't agree. I'm not forcing you to.
Nobody buys a Surface Pro to just do what you say. They buy a cheap Android model, and you know it. They buy a Surface Pro because it's a light, thin Windows computer. There's no other reason to buy it. And considering that, you need the stylus when no external keyboard is used, and that's why Microsoft includes it. You know that, I know that, and everyone knows that. Please don't be disingenuous.
For most everything, you have no need for a stylus with any iOS tablet. Most of,the apps that now incorporate Pencil capabilities have been used very well for several years already. I know, because I use most of those apps. But the Pencil will make them better. Even so, not everyone will move to the Pencil because they're used to doing things the way they've always done it.
Other possibility is Apple overcharging the Smart Keybord. The Surface Pro keyboard has good tactile feel, backlit and trackpad and cost less. Doesn't make sense how Apple charge more for a keyboard missing those features.
Since iOS don't support external pointing devices, the iPad Pro will be uncomfortable with any external keyboard and working in a vertical position. It's the same as the interaction with a touchscreen notebook.
That's fine. Don't agree. I'm not forcing you to.
My post was an example on how you can use the SP4 without stylus and keyboard, using only touch based applications. And, for some reason you still think the stylus is a requirement. Like I posted before, you workflow and needs define the accessories you device needs. I don't need the stylus or keyboard to play games, browse the internet or watch movies. Like you said, you can do the same things in other tablets, but the SP4 is capable of a good experience without keyboard and mouse depending in what you need. And I don't need the stylus to navigate. It is included for handwriting in OneNote.
That's the same as the SP4 Pen, it make a better experience for OneNote and Adobe CS, among other applications. Still is not a requirement for touch optimised apps like Netflix, MS Office Mobile and many other apps.
You can't reason with them but I agree with you. I also just use my stylus for Photoshop, Sketchbook and OneNote. Also when I take my Surface on the road I never, ever bring the keyboard with me. The virtual keyboard is quite good and I've actually learned how to touch type on it. Like with the iPad Pro, it's almost a full size keyboard. Though the Surface Pro isn't as tabletity, made up word, as the iPad Pro, using it without a stylus and keyboard is still extremely useful.
On a side note, you have got to buy the new UAG, Urban Armored Gear case for it. It's fantastic and even matches the colors of the keyboard, if you use it.
So much for the kickstand relic, it all goes to shit if you are going to be using a case, and who doesn't use a case with their tablet's nowadays. Another brilliantly envisioned invention by MS, a stand up mechanism that almost excludes the very idea of a case, the no. 1 accessory, of a tablet.
And they are inexcusable for not having fused the screen to the glass to reduce glare and double sightings with the stylus when you draw, even amazon has fused the damn things way back when.
Having said that you guys are making some valid points. Now can someone look in the os x thread and get back to me on some basic finder functionality I can't seem to get it to work?
.... Wth smilies shortcuts don't work in the new interface?
I doubt Apple is overcharging. It's much more likely Microsoft is losing money on that required accessory. I was in the Apple Store today, and finally tried out the Pencil and keyboard. Quite frankly, the keyboard felt much better than expected. It has sufficient movement and the keys don't feel mushy. I would never expect a cover/keyboard to have the travel of a regular keyboard, whether the Surface Pro, or,the iPad Pro model. But this felt at least as good as the new one for the surface, and much better than the one for the Surface Pro 3. Whether slightly better, or worse than the Pro 4 keyboard was hard to tell since obviously, there was no Surface there to compare it to, and recollections can be slightly fuzzy when two things are close in performance. I've read in some reciews that the iPad Pro keyboard feels sturdier.
I do think that you really need to try this before commenting further.
The stylus is a requirement for a Surface no matter what you say. Microsoft knows it's a requirement, or they wouldn't have included it. It's pretty simple. Just read the reviews, and you'll see for yourself. When I used the various Surface models over the past three years, it was easy to see that the stylus was needed. The first 10.5" Pros were a real joke. That screen was so small, even using the stylus it was easy to make errors.
What is so interesting is that other than for the aborted Win 8, Microsoft has made few concessions to stylus, or touch usage on the Surface tablets, or for OEM models. It's not that much better than in 2002, when Gat4s made the statement, commenting on the new Microsoft "Tablets", which we all called convertibles, that most people would be buying one of them as their computing device by 2005. He couldn't have been more wrong.
Those laptops had 13" to 15" screens, and everyone agreed (again, just go back and read the articles and reviews) that those screens were too small for a stylus equipped Windows.cso the only uses for for vertical markets, such as warehouses, and other purposes where software consisted of boxes to tap with the stylus, and a signed name at the bottom. For everything else, it was too difficult.
So now we have these Win 10 tablets with a 12.3" screen. But Microsoft added almost nothing to accommodate those smaller screens, except to lower the emulated resolution to about 1280 X 1024. They did that to get the features big enough so that you could tap them reliably with the stylus. Most are still too small for a finger. But, as you can see from the Ads, they expect you to buy the keyboard too.
That's just a fact of life with a Windows tablet. You can argue all you want. I just don't see how you've used those without understanding it.
I doubt Apple is overcharging. It's much more likely Microsoft is losing money on that required accessory. Whether slightly better, or worse than the Pro 4 keyboard was hard to tell since obviously, there was no Surface there to compare it to, and recollections can be slightly fuzzy when two things are close in performance.
I don't think MS is losing money in the SP accessories. Again, MS has a better, more functional keyboard for less. Looks like Apple is overcharging.
Regarding the SP3 keyboard, that was awful, and one of the reasons I didn't buy a SP3. But that keyboard is no more, and the new one is far better.
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The SP4 keyboard can be attached for an angled position, and there is some flex in that position. But you can use it flat, as the Smart Keyboard, if the flex affect your typing.
I'm looking forward to try the Smart Keyboard.