Cook, other Apple execs open up on company's future in extensive '60 Minutes' feature

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 95
    maestro64maestro64 Posts: 5,016member

    First for those of you who do not understand this topic of taxes, there is a thing call the university and they offer you a 4 year degree in tax accounting.

    This issue if very complicated and as the others pointed out the US laws are old and out dated from the stand point it is base on companies making all their profits in the US not out side the US, and it get more complicated depending on where the product was manufactured and then finally sold.

    Simply put the US law does not tax profits made out side the US where the product was not originally sold from within the US Boarders. Apple products sold in the EU are still manufactures in China and then sold through it Irish operations. Because the Ireland if part of the EU all the profits Apple makes in the EU are taxed on the Ireland tax code. Plus Ireland does not tax profits on products sold outside the EU as long as the company paid local taxes where the item was sold.

    Now, Apple does not keep its non-US profits in the Ireland they are kept in the Cayman Island because of their great tax codes with companies.

    All the US government had to do is pass a tax law which says all US companies will pay taxes on all profits made anywhere in the world even if they pay taxes in those Countries. France does this, and look at all the great companies who want to set up headquarters there. This is the point Cook is making without coming out and saying it, the Laws only assuming profits are made in the US. There are some countries which tax their companies on all profits world wide, but it is at a reduced rate, why, since those companies were not using resources in the home countries to make those profits in other countries, the tax is proportional to the home companies resources being uses to support that company.

    Oh even if the US change the tax laws most companies will still not pay the tax, why most operate a business entity within the region they are doing business to shelter it from various taxes and legal issues. I worked for a large company and we had 46 entities around the world which operate as their own company from the main parent company.

    To personalize this for people. Imagine you work in the UK for a UK company and you are a US citizen and you pay UK taxes because you have too and it is 50% tax rate which is close to that. Then you return home with your savings and the US says you owe them 25% for federal taxes plus 15% for self employment tax (social security - both your's and the company's portion) and you also have to pay 3% medicare. This is what would happen to Apple in a way if they brought the money home.

    BTW, what the US does for individual in this situation is allows you to deduct the taxes you pay to other countries and if those taxes are higher than what you would have paid in the US then you do not have to pay the US taxes, not true for companies. 

    edited December 2015 nolamacguy
  • Reply 42 of 95
    satchmo said:
    bugsnw said: 

    Overall, 60 minutes was a letdown. They covered a lot of old territory and barely anything new. I wanted to see what was going on in those J. Ive labs - after all, that was the primary tease that I kept seeing all week.

    Yeah, same old same old. More of a PR for both Apple and 60 Minutes.
    The only revealing thing was Jony Ive's admission of possible complacency because of Apple's size and success.
    That they're too insular and focussed on what their own project and not being in touch with what's happening out there. (I'm paraphrasing)

    It was more difficult getting Cook to admit that the Apple Watch wasn't quite there. That there's room for improvement.
    He's finally admitted that they have one or two future generations always on the go.

    Bull. What Jony was saying is that they don't let what's going on with Apple (massive success) influence their process of designing products. It's the opposite of complacency.

    My big takeaway from this is that Jony is there for the long haul. When he was moved into a different position back in May (with 2 others taking over some of his roles) many people (idiots) were claiming Jony was on his way out and Apple was weening themselves of him. His little comment "on the top floor" tells me he's going to be a big part of Apple for some time.


    BTW,  I like the dislike button, but where's the block list? All the trolls posts are now coming through unfiltered. 
    edited December 2015 nolamacguycornchip
  • Reply 43 of 95
    foggyhillfoggyhill Posts: 4,767member
    focher said:
    john galt said:
    Here's a short quiz for you Bob.

    A publicly traded company's primary fiduciary responsibility is to:

    1: its shareholders
    2: its employees
    3: taxpayers
    4: social justice

    You can probably figure out the answer, but if you need help, it is easily found in federal law.

    It's actually in none of those things..although the popular myth is #1

    The main responsability of a company is to remain a going concern, making money ever more efficiently in all way legal for as long as possible.
    The present value of that money stream is in theory the stock price
    In the fickle tech sphere, that alone is one major endeavour.

    Everything they do, may it be taking care of their employees (more productive if in good spirit and paid well), society (for PR reasons or making sure the context they operate in is a good one), shareholders (ironically not that important to most companies except in the early going, since most of them are fractured and impotent...),

    The company first must takes care of things that create value for it short and long term (to stay in business) and that's not the shareholder.




  • Reply 44 of 95
    lkrupp said:
    I don't know if Apple had control over the questions that were asked but if they did Apple PR should never have allowed questions on taxes or Chinese workers. 
    Rose even brought up the suicide nets boogeyman. And once again it was presented as an Apple only problem. You are right, the only things people will focus on are the negatives of the program. 1. Apple uses slave labor. 2. Apple is a tax evader. 3. The Watch is a failure. 4. Apple is DOOMED!™

    The reviews of the program today on the tech websites will verify my take on it.
    Honestly I can't believe Cook's Watch comments are even newsworthy. A future version of a product is going to be better than the one that came before. No shit. Just like every other product that exists.

    For the Apple junkie there wasn't anything new in this piece but one thing Charlie Rose said that stood out to me: he said Jony was considered "by many at Apple"  to be the most important person at the company. He didn't say "outside observers believe" or "many people say", he said people inside the company. The piece definitely came across as this is Tim and Jony's company and everyone else just works there. For me this angle is much more interesting than focusing on taxes or China or the refusal to talk about an Apple car. If this is the message Apple is sending why and why now?
  • Reply 45 of 95
    sog35 said:

    acgmph said:
    At least I wasn't the only one who thought the thing was a boring Apple PR piece: http://qz.com/578585/every-missed-opportunity-during-the-apple-puff-piece-on-60-minutes/

    As for the tax piece, I only have this to say: if a country taxes corporations considerably less than its people, then it's a tax heaven. Ireland does that. So does the Netherlands and other places. In the Netherlands (where I lived and worked) companies that cut deals with the government there to have a PO Box company there (literally, just a PO Box -- like Apple and Facebook do) pay less than 10% tax (usually about 7%). Meanwhile, Dutch residents pay up to 52% tax (yes, you're reading that right). No wonder Europeans are pissed off at these deals and the EU Parliament and Commission are investigating, when the Europeans, and not the corporations that generated these crises are the ones paying for bailouts and failures of their governments to regulate into place these transborder "digital age" and financial services goliaths.

    And if you're defending these practices because they have to protect the interest of their shareholders and they paid the legal tax rate, then you're just a tool to them, because none of these companies care about you, they only care about your money. Period. Why people care so much and jump to defend these companies is beyond me. Probably, secretly, you think Apple loves you. They don't. You're just a dollar sign to them. Stop being a tool. Stop having feelings for these companies, you will be disappointed when you find out what you really are to them. 
    DUMB.

    Stop treating Corporations like humans. They are NOT humans.

    Corporations make profits and they need to pay taxes.
    Corporations pay dividends to shareholders and shareholders need to pay taxes on those dividends.
    Shareholders need to pay taxes AGAIN when they sell their shares.

    At the end of the day shareholders are paying 60%+ tax rate when you combine the corporate taxes, local taxes, and individual taxes.  The DOUBLE taxation of corporations and shareholders is ridiculous.  All these tax laws do is make companies move operations and jobs to countries that have fair tax laws unlike the USA and much of western Europe.

    I am not defending Apple, on the contrary, I hope they get burned by the EU with a few billion dollars in fines. Read my post again - was referring to people on this forum and others alike that always jump to defend a corporation, which is DUMB.
    OT: How's that banishment going? Share price is not even close to $150
    xixo
  • Reply 46 of 95
    maestro64 said:

    First for those of you who do not understand this topic of taxes, there is a thing call the university and they offer you a 4 year degree in tax accounting.

    This issue if very complicated and as the others pointed out the US laws are old and out dated from the stand point it is base on companies making all their profits in the US not out side the US, and it get more complicated depending on where the product was manufactured and then finally sold.

    Simply put the US law does not tax profits made out side the US where the product was not originally sold from within the US Boarders. Apple products sold in the EU are still manufactures in China and then sold through it Irish operations. Because the Ireland if part of the EU all the profits Apple makes in the EU are taxed on the Ireland tax code. Plus Ireland does not tax profits on products sold outside the EU as long as the company paid local taxes where the item was sold.

    Now, Apple does not keep its non-US profits in the Ireland they are kept in the Cayman Island because of their great tax codes with companies.

    All the US government had to do is pass a tax law which says all US companies will pay taxes on all profits made anywhere in the world even if they pay taxes in those companies. France does this, and look at all the great companies who want to set up headquarters there. This is the point Cook is making without coming out and saying it, the Laws only assuming profits are made in the US. There are some countries which tax their companies on all profits world wide, but it is at a reduced rate, why, since those companies were not using resourcing in the home countries to make those profits in other countries, the tax is proportional to the home companies resources being uses to support that company.

    Oh even if the US change the tax laws most companies will still not pay the tax, why most operate a business entity within the region they are doing business to shelter it from various tax and legal issues. I world for a large company and we had 46 entities around the world which operate as their own company from the main parent company.

    To personalize this for people. Imagine you work in the UK for a UK company and you are a US citizen and you pay UK taxes because you have too and it is 50% tax rate which is close to that. Then you return home with your savings and the US saysyou owe them 25% for federal taxes plus 15% for self employment tax (social security - both your's and the company's portion) and you also have to pay 3% medicare. This is what would happen to apple in a way if they brought the money home.

    BTW, what the us does for individual in this situation is allows you to deduct the taxes you pay to other countries and if those taxes are higher than what you would have paid in the US then you do not have to pay the US taxes, not true for companies. 

    That's all true, and in addition to your post there's the transfer prices issue, a magnificent way for a multinational to lower its tax bill. Take R&D for example, at Apple, they can cross-charge their US HQ for "R&D" cost and transfer US-earned sales money to Ireland where they pay a lower tax rate, paying less taxes in the US, because of R&D cost. That's the reason every time I hear Apple hiring more people for their R&D center in Ireland I call BS because I know it's just for lowering their tax bill and they don't innovate squat in Ireland. This is tax evasion, and it's hard to prove because there's no way to quantify the cost R&D for each product. More so, this adds to the reason why Apple is so secretive about its innovation center (on top of IP theft). 

    People who defend these practices are stealing from their own pockets. Every time you defend Apple's tax policies, you're defending the massive US budget deficit. 
    xixo
  • Reply 47 of 95
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 23,252member
    Some of you understand it. There is no way a company in their right minds would pay a foreign country's tax rates and then take a 40% penalty to bring it into the US. It would be irresponsible. This is why most companies do not bring money back. It is not just Apple, it is all intelligent companies. The whole point Tim seems to make is why not update this structure to encourage companies to bring that money back and invest? It is just silly for the government to continue this way.
    ...except that Apple, and Google, and Amazon, and dozens of other huge multinationals are NOT paying a foreign country's tax rates.

     In the case of Apple specifically they are not paying ANY taxes whatsoever (VAT or sales tax are purchaser/consumer taxes, not corporate) on billions in international sales made in countries across the planet. How so you say? Here's how, and according to Apple themselves:

    Several years ago Apple approached Irish tax authorities to discuss what an appropriate tax basis would be if they were to continue investing there. Apple felt that not all of their revenue should be considered taxable. To be more specific they thought only their manufacturing efforts, an area where they had had identifiable payroll and product, should be the only segment taxed. The other revenue sources like IP licensing and international product distribution didn't directly benefit Irish citizens nor flow back to Apple from them. Apple also said it was difficult to break down the revenue and expenses attributable to each of the sources with 100% accuracy so they came up with an arbitrary number. They said they'd be willing to pay no less than $30M but no more than $100M (it may have been in euros and not dollars but that's not very important in reality) for their manufacturing operations in any year where Apple actually say they had a profit from the plant. The tax office agreed to accept Apple's number. OK, fair enough Here's the good part.

     Because Apple now had a tax-paying subsidiary in Ireland they were also entitled to set up other corporations, none of which were necessarily required to pay tax nor even file revenue reports with the Irish as long as they were entirely managed outside of Ireland. So Apple now has Apple Operations International (AOI) and a wholly owned subsidiary under it going by the name Apple Sales International (ASI), and both incorporated in Ireland. Under the current law, now in the process of being changed I think, neither company pays taxes to the Irish because they are managed from a foreign country. In this case it's the US. As a matter of fact before Tim Cook became CEO he was one of AOI ad ASI's three directors, as was Oppenheimer. (No I don't know who the third was). Now the ASI subsidiary doesn't even currently declare directors at all. 

    Further the controlling company, AOI,  has no employees, no offices, not even a physical address. Tho its directors meet at least once a year it exists only on paper for the most part and solely for ownership of Apple's international revenues. The profits are managed for investment purposes by yet another Apple subsidiary Braeburn Capital. You remeber articles about them don't you?

    But surely the US must tax them since Apple controls those corporations from here right? Nope. The US determines tax residency of a company based on the country where it's incorporated. For AOI and ASI that would be Ireland. So here we are with over $200 billion sitting happily in New York banks, technically "overseas" of course (only technicalities allow the aggressive tax avoidance to work in the first place), on which little or no corporate tax at all has ever been paid. The companies are incorporated in Ireland where typically they'd pay their taxes but they aren't mangaged there. They're controlled from the US. The United States doesn't tax them because 

    Because of the simple manufacturing plant tax agreement Apple made with the Irish most recently in 2006 they can now claim to operate as a loss or near to it in countries ranging from France and Germany all the way to Australia. Apple Sales International sells to them at a high enough price to make sure profits in any particlular country are minimal to non-existent.  To be fair Apple is far from the only multinational with creative tax avoidance schemes, and all perfectly legal by the way up to this point, but at the same time they get more of the attention simply because they have much more revenue tied up in it than any other tech. They're larger by leaps and bounds with 10's of billions more "overseas" than any of the others so of course they end up being the poster child when tax avoidance comes up. 

    BTW should anyone doubt the veracity of all this, it comes directly from Apple themselves as revealed in documents they had to submit under subpoena in US Senate and EU Commission investigations. At some point I would guess the EU will be more public with its other findings as they typically tend to do. 

    So while Tim Cook may truthfully say he believes all the talk of taxes and what's fair is politically driven (and I agree) he cannot say that Apple hasn't created creative methods to avoid taxes on 10's of $Billions in profit. They have.Because its become so massive it can't be hidden away in the background any longer. Even Mr Cook admits there's a danger in Apple becoming too rich. 
    edited December 2015 acgmph
  • Reply 48 of 95
    nhtnht Posts: 4,522member
    acgmph said:

    As for the tax piece, I only have this to say: if a country taxes corporations considerably less than its people, then it's a tax heaven. Ireland does that. So does the Netherlands and other places. In the Netherlands (where I lived and worked) companies that cut deals with the government there to have a PO Box company there (literally, just a PO Box -- like Apple and Facebook do) pay less than 10% tax (usually about 7%). Meanwhile, Dutch residents pay up to 52% tax (yes, you're reading that right). No wonder Europeans are pissed off at these deals and the EU Parliament and Commission are investigating, when the Europeans, and not the corporations that generated these crises are the ones paying for bailouts and failures of their governments to regulate into place these transborder "digital age" and financial services goliaths.

    And if you're defending these practices because they have to protect the interest of their shareholders and they paid the legal tax rate, then you're just a tool to them, because none of these companies care about you, they only care about your money. Period. Why people care so much and jump to defend these companies is beyond me. Probably, secretly, you think Apple loves you. They don't. You're just a dollar sign to them. Stop being a tool. Stop having feelings for these companies, you will be disappointed when you find out what you really are to them. 
    Is 7% of billions better than 52% of nothing?  It's a big win for Dutch residents to get that kind of deal.  Do the Dutch really care that some French or Germans are pissed off about it?

    Europeans in general are pissed off that Apple and Google aren't European.  And you know, there's a reason for that.
  • Reply 49 of 95
    nhtnht Posts: 4,522member

    bobroo said:

    Funny you bring up body language. My wife and I find Tim Cook to be a terrible liar. In short, when he lies he smiles. Questioning about the success/failure of the Apple Watch brought a big grin and confirmed (to my wife and I anyway) the Apple Watch sales results are no where near what Tim and Jony thought they would be.
    A) I prefer CEOs that are terrible liars.
    B) I think your analysis is still bullshit.
    nolamacguy
  • Reply 50 of 95
    endlos said:
    After reading that 60 Minutes had done a segment on Apple I decided to sign-up for CBS "All Access" for to give the service a try and watch said episode on my Apple TV (previous model). The trouble is that CBS does not list 60 Minutes under the Shows menu option, it doesn't have a search so there is no way to get to that show! So much for "All Access". Then I headed to the CBS site where 60 minutes is listed and tried to connect my Apple TV/iTunes subscription to a CBS account. It claimed success but when clicking on 60 Minutes it claimed I didn't have a valid CBS All Access subscription. So I tried again (same result). So much for CBS and Apple TV integration.
    Did you pay your $.99 per monthly subscription fee.
  • Reply 51 of 95
    bobroo said:
    jonl said:
    I fail to see what Apple got out of this. Tim Cook had several uncomfortable squirmy body language moments, and they actually showed the Foxconn nets.
    Funny you bring up body language. My wife and I find Tim Cook to be a terrible liar. In short, when he lies he smiles. Questioning about the success/failure of the Apple Watch brought a big grin and confirmed (to my wife and I anyway) the Apple Watch sales results are no where near what Tim and Jony thought they would be.
    You are amazing. You can watch a 2 dimensional screen and determine if the participants are telling the truth by a smile on their face? Or that you can tell what they are thinking.?
    nolamacguy
  • Reply 52 of 95
    jonljonl Posts: 210member
    lkrupp said:
    Rose even brought up the suicide nets boogeyman. And once again it was presented as an Apple only problem. You are right, the only things people will focus on are the negatives of the program. 1. Apple uses slave labor. 2. Apple is a tax evader. 3. The Watch is a failure. 4. Apple is DOOMED!™

    The reviews of the program today on the tech websites will verify my take on it.
    You forgot the Taj Mahal they're building, wider than the Pentagon, all to make iPhones.
  • Reply 53 of 95
    Thanks for your response rogifan_old, I appreciate your thoughts! In quick response and in no particular order:

    The way Apple reports earnings and that "Other" category; yes it includes the iWatch but more importantly it also includes iTunes. The growth an size of iTunes is absolutely incredible. I'm thinking iTunes itself could be a Fortune 500 company. So growth of the Other category is uncertain which iDevice is directly responsible.

    Yes, Tim feels uncomfortable admitting that her uses tax shelters to just plain avoid paying money and receiving nothing. But like other posters have mentioned here; it's the way you play the game today. But just the immense volume Tim Cook is playing the game at has got him feeling uncomfortable and therefore he grins that big Tim Cook grin.

    What? No issues with "Tim and Jony's Apple"?

    The iWatch is not the game changer it was thought it would become. I've found the only folks who use it in ernest are Apple Store employees. If there were huge demand for iWatches, Tim and Jony's Apple would be bragging about their sales profusely.

    In my own due diligence asking some folks I have seen wearing an iWatch and seeing if it would be something I should consider buying (it is not, BTW) one person said: "Ya' know, it's like this: If I'm driving to work and I forget my iPhone, I have to turn around and get it. If I'm driving and I forgot my iWatch, I'll try to remember to bring it tomorrow."

    I think that sums up the current value of the iWatch perfectly.


  • Reply 54 of 95
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 23,252member
    sog35 said:

    gatorguy said:

    ...except that Apple, and Google, and Amazon, and dozens of other huge multinationals are NOT paying a foreign country's tax rates. 

    Whatever dude.

    Bottom line is Apple is paying a tax rate of 26%.
    No sir they are not. Do a little more research and you'll find why what Apple officially and quite legally reports differs from actual fact. Apple has not "paid" 26% of their worldwide revenues in taxes.  Look at the figures Apple uses in their computation and where those revenues come from. Further note that even there some of it is simply noted as due IF Apple were to elect to bring that portion home at some future point. If they have no plans to ever bring it home those revenues are not included in Apple's tax figures. So to make it simple the portion of Apple's revenues with deferred tax obligations does not include all of Apple's international revenue.  Why? Because there's no circumstance under which Apple would realistically bring any of it "home" and therefor it will NEVER be taxable as far as Apple is concerned. 
    edited December 2015
  • Reply 55 of 95
    jonl said:
    lkrupp said:
    Rose even brought up the suicide nets boogeyman. And once again it was presented as an Apple only problem. You are right, the only things people will focus on are the negatives of the program. 1. Apple uses slave labor. 2. Apple is a tax evader. 3. The Watch is a failure. 4. Apple is DOOMED!™

    The reviews of the program today on the tech websites will verify my take on it.
    You forgot the Taj Mahal they're building, wider than the Pentagon, all to make iPhones.
    Funny how no one questioned this new campus when Jobs first announced it. Now it's a sign Apple is doomed™ because anytime a company build a big new campus they go down hill shortly there after. 
  • Reply 56 of 95
    jfc1138 said:
    Some questions:

    Is Apple required to bring that money home to the US?

    If Apple could get the same tax rate and benefits in the US that they get in Ireland... would Apple start keeping all their money in the US?

    Does anyone wonder why so many companies set up shop in Ireland in the first place?
    Obviously not since they don't right? So, money earned overseas is subject to those nations laws, including tax laws. Overseas money has already had taxes paid where it was earned, bringing it into the United States wouldn't serve any purpose: Apple has a lot of overseas expenses: paying for components, assembly etc. running it through the United States where it was neither earned nor being spent would be silly. 

    OTOH money earned in the United States IS subject to United States taxes and Apple pays billions and billions. 
    Businesses need not set up shop in the US to compete and the fact that so many American businesses have chosen other countries is a clear indicator US policies have become less and less favorable.

    The tax code needs to be gutted and the IRS should be shut down. There are a number of OK solutions out there, but there are also a lot of entrenched interests opposing completely upending the status quo.
    rogifan_old
  • Reply 57 of 95
    mr. memr. me Posts: 3,221member
    gatorguy said:
    Some of you understand it. There is no way a company in their right minds would pay a foreign country's tax rates and then take a 40% penalty to bring it into the US. It would be irresponsible. This is why most companies do not bring money back. It is not just Apple, it is all intelligent companies. The whole point Tim seems to make is why not update this structure to encourage companies to bring that money back and invest? It is just silly for the government to continue this way.
    ...except that Apple, and Google, and Amazon, and dozens of other huge multinationals are NOT paying a foreign country's tax rates. In the cse of Apple specifically they are not paying ANY taxes whatsoever (VAT or sales tax are purchaser/consumer taxes, not corporate) on billions in international sales. How so you say? Here's how, and according to Apple themselves: Several years ago Apple approached Irish tax authorities to discuss what an appropriate tax basis would be if they were to continue investing there. Apple felt that not all of their revenue should be considered taxable. To be more specific they thought only their manufacturing efforts, an area where they had had identifiable payroll and product, should be the only segment taxed. The other revenue sources like IP licensing and international product distribution didn't directly benefit Irish citizens nor flow back to Apple from them. Apple also said it was difficult to break down the revenue and expenses attributable to each of the sources with 100% accuracy so they came up with an arbitrary number. They said they'd be willing to pay no less than $30M but no more than $100M (it may have been in euros and not dollars but that's not very important in reality) for their manufacturing operations in any year where Apple actually say a profit from the plant. The tax office agreed to accept Apple's number. Here's the good part. Because Apple now had a tax-paying subsidiary in Ireland they were also entitled to set up other corporations, none of which were necessarily required to pay tax nor even file revenue reports with the Irish as long as they were managed outside of Ireland. So here Apple now has Apple Operations International (AOI) and a wholly owned subsidiary of it going by the name Apple Sales International (ASI). Neither company pays taxes to the Irish because they are managed from a foreign country, the US. As a matter of fact before Tim Cook became CEO he was one of the three directors, as was Oppenheimer. They have no employees, nor even an office. In fact ASI doesn't even currently declare directors. Further the controlling company AOI has no employees nor even a physical address. It exists only on paper and exists solely to own Apple's international revenues, which are managed for investment purposes by another Apple subsidiary Braeburn Capital. But surely the US must tax them since Apple controls those corporations from here. Nope. The US determines tax residency on the country where it's incorporated. Ireland in this case. So here we are with over $200 billion sitting happily in New York banks, technically "overseas" of course (only technicalities allow the aggressive tax avoidance to work in the first place), on which little or no corporate tax at all has ever been paid.

    Because of the simple manufacturing plant tax agreement Apple made with the Irish most recently in 2006 they can now claim to operate as a loss or near to it in countries ranging from France and Germany all the way to Australia. Apple Sales International sells to them at a high enough price to make sure profits in any particlular country are minimal to non-existent.  To be fair Apple is far from the only multinational with creative tax avoidance schemes, and all perfectly legal by the way up to this point, but at the same time they get more of the attention simply because they have much more revenue tied up in it than any other tech. They're larger by leaps and bounds with 10's of billions more "overseas" than any of the others so of course they end up being the poster child when tax avoidance comes up. 

    BTW should anyone doubt the veracity of all this, it comes directly from Apple themselves as revealed in documents they had to submit under subpoena in US Senate and EU Commission investigations. At some point I would guess the EU will be more public with its other findings as they typically tend to do. 

    So while Tim Cook may truthfully say he believes all the talk of taxes and what's fair is politically driven he cannot say that Apple hasn't created creative methods to avoid taxes on 10's of $Billions in profit. They have.
    Excellent post.

    Implicit in your post is an old saying: "The scandal isn't what illegal; the scandal is what's legal." Lobbyists have legislatures to pass laws that favor wealthy individuals and corporations. Laws governing fiduciaries require that corporations take most advantage of these sweetheart laws.

    For those who wonder why the United States doesn't just copy the tax laws of Ireland, the Cayman Islands, and other tax havens--think! The United States isn't Ireland or any of those other countries. It is the World's only superpower. U. S. courts protect Apple intellectual property. U. S. diplomacy open international markets to Apple. U. S. armed forces protect Apple access to these markets. The U. S. is the dominant power in such areas as air traffic control and currency exchange. The U. S. dollar is the World's reserve currency. U. S. taxes benefit not only Apple but also every other U. S. multinational corporation and every other corporation on Earth.

    This is not to say that corporations are evil and governments or good. The World is changing. Globalization makes it much easier for those with resources to avoid paying for their services and to pass those costs onto those of meager means. However, this situation rapidly getting worse. We have challenges like global climate change and international terrorism. These are intractable problems. Before we solve these problems, however, we may be forced to solve the problem created by the fact that people with money today and going forward don't have to spend it or pay taxes on it.
  • Reply 58 of 95
    sog35 said:
    The stock is down 20% and could have been totally avoided if just Tim Cook just took 5 minutes to tell the world that supply chain rumors are unreliable.
    why do you keep complaining about this? COOK HAS ALREADY SAID THAT WAS A BUNK WAY TO FORECAST. has. said. 

    what, do you expect him to say it over & over again?
  • Reply 59 of 95
    sog35 said:

    bobroo said:


    In my own due diligence asking some folks I have seen wearing an iWatch and seeing if it would be something I should consider buying (it is not, BTW) one person said: "Ya' know, it's like this: If I'm driving to work and I forget my iPhone, I have to turn around and get it. If I'm driving and I forgot my iWatch, I'll try to remember to bring it tomorrow."

    I think that sums up the current value of the iWatch perfectly.


    DUMB.

    So you base your entire basis on ONE PERSON?  

    You don't even know what the product is called.  Its not called the iWatch. That you don't even know its name proves you have no idea what it does.
    My guess you are spewing total lies. You don't even know what the product is called and you want us to believe you.
    People damn well know what the product is called. They use the name "iWatch" as a dig against the product. Obviously this product will look like a failure if the bar someone sets is it has to be as popular and indispensable as the iPhone. Clearly some have intentionally set unrealistic expectations because they know Apple can't meet them and then they can crow about how the "iWatch" is a failure.
  • Reply 60 of 95
    bobroo said:

    In my own due diligence asking some folks I have seen wearing an iWatch and seeing if it would be something I should consider buying (it is not, BTW) one person said: "Ya' know, it's like this: If I'm driving to work and I forget my iPhone, I have to turn around and get it. If I'm driving and I forgot my iWatch, I'll try to remember to bring it tomorrow."

    I think that sums up the current value of the iWatch perfectly.
    My apologies. I didn't realize that you were a professional researcher.
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