"IMO, Surface Pro has easily standout over other similar products, and that may even include the iPad Pro. "
If CES 2016 is anything to go by, then I disagree. All three major PC makers (Lenovo, Dell, HP), actually have excellent products coming out this year to the point that the SP4 doesn't really stand out anymore. The only one that stands out is the SB.
You should wait the release of those devices before saying they are excellent products (which they may be). Until then, the Surface Pro is the one standing out.
Surface Pro is basically just a laptop with inferior keyboard/trackpad. And I'll bet most people who own Surface Book never detach the display to use in clipboard mode either.
Surface Pro, MS Office Mobile including Outook app, Activesync, InTune / System Center as MDM are some examples on how MS knows mobile.
The Surface Pro has a great construction, and very good keyboard and stylus, excellent display (some reviews put it ahead of the iPP screen), can be used as a notebook, tablet or desktop (with the docking station) and it's capable of running desktop applications. And that's a lackluster mobile product? I know is not perfect (battery life comes to my mind), but it's a very capable mobile device.
I agree with you, the iPad Pro is just a large tablet with an optional stylus. The Surface Pro is much more than that, and while it lacks mobile apps, there is no problem with the long list of available applications. And that's an advantage over OS X and Macbooks (which are mobile devices too) and in some cases, even over iOS.
"and while it lacks mobile apps" and, as you acknowledge, it has poor battery life, especially in tablet mode.
Pretty much definition of mobile is touch apps. Most of the applications available to Surface that you refer to are desktop applications. Until developers convert desktop applications to touch or create Universal apps, I stick by my statement that MS hasn't figured mobile out.
As a standalone tablet, I'll take an iPad Pro over Surface any day, and the Pencil over any stylus that MS comes up with. Again, let the sales numbers demonstrate any success or failure.
Dan, you mean Apple's management looks at their (current) products as a whole, sort of like the total return approach in investment management, instead of seeing each product as a standalone enterprise? I'm shocked.
Great article. Microsoft store own the mall still empty when I walked by today.
Actual comments of users have not been as kind as reviewers; Windows 10 is a buggy mess, which is one part of the issue.
I'm an actual user, and Windows 10 was awful in the first release. But after the latest updates, it has been very stable, even though I'm running in a 6 year HP Elitebook. BTW, do you have any comments in the quality control of the latest releases of iOS and OS X. Because what I have read is not too good (even though I had no issues with my MBA).
If you read, many people are making the comparison, even though MS neither Apple put them as competition. And Apple positioned the iPad Pro as a possible laptop replacement, and the SP4 does a better job on that, since it runs desktop applications, has a docking station and is compatible with pointing devices.
Remember that most of those laptops and 2 in 1 run Windows, so MS always win, be it because it sells a Surface or because the device has Windows in it.
My main desktop is Windows 10 and it had a lot of severe issues in the upgrades made it a bloody mess. I'm a computer engineer from training and have used Windows since 3.0; I've had to endure quite a bit of MS... "QA" at work. Just one example, resetting all settings in the big november upgrades, which also made by Wifi completely flaky for 1.5 months until un update last week. I couldn't get WIFI to work for more than 1h at a time without having to manually reconnect (automatic didn't work); it's a know bug... Like that helps. Forced upgrades (you can sort of prevent it by claiming you'rer on a metered line, but that's one hell of a kludge). BTW, some upgrades are impossible to do, even manually, if you're on metered, which really weird (speach pack upgrades). I think they know people are using metering as a way to avoid updates. Privacy leaks... All over the place. BTW, the upgrade that fixed the WIFI, reset my defaults again and broke some third party apps.
The number of security patches done by Microsoft is extreme for years on end; no wonder they don't want anyone to look at the release notes anymore.
I now wish I'd done a full on backup because now going back to 8.1 (which was a hell of a lot more stable, but 8.0 was a fracking embarassing mess).
In truth, if Apple release the crap Microsoft did over the year, there would be a riot.
All my other machines are Unix workstations and I have a Windows 8.1 laptop.
I don't use OSX, but in general it seems to be a good version from the start (better than the previous one) from reviews and friends I know have it.
I have lots of IOS devices though, 8.0 on older devices... Not good at all. So, that release was a definite letdown. But, at least Apple did something about it. After those issues, Apple started to do the public betas and that has improved QA.
Still there is no forced upgrade anymore, so unless your device goes kaput and you need a full restore, you can stay on whatever mature version suits you. Some are still on IOS 7.1.2
The 9.0 release has generally been OK compared to the previous one. Ironically, it was the slowing down of Iphone 6 that stood out; not quite sure what caused that. Change in the handling of video being the most probable culprit. Yet, they fixed most issues by 9.2 that came out December 8 (so about 10 weeks after initial Iphone release).
Got it on 4 tablets, including an Ipad 2 and 4 iphones including a 4S.
"That means even if Microsoft does manage to stumble upon a
successful Surface launch, it will face intense competition from the
same commodity producers that Apple supposedly faces, but in Microsoft's
case, its competition will be able to run all the same software, making
it much harder for Surface to stand out from commodity PC tablets than
it has been for iPads."
IMO, Surface Pro has easily standout over other similar products, and
that may even include the iPad Pro.
Does the term "ripoff" applies to Apple devices, like the iPod, iPhone,
Apple Watch, Apple Music, iCloud and iPad / iPad Pro since there were similar
devices before Apple offerings?
What similar devices? The Samsung Blackberry knockoffs and the broken tablets?
Surface Pro is basically just a laptop with inferior keyboard/trackpad. And I'll bet most people who own Surface Book never detach the display to use in clipboard mode either.
Interesting that the Surface Pro 4 has a better keyboard than that Macbook. Does that, in your opinion, makes it an inferior notebook?
Daniel Eran Dilger verbose posts supported by numerous charts give Apple investors exactly what they want to hear - that Apple is doing fantastic job and the bright future is ahead. Keep listening to this old DED tune, while AAPL stock melts down. And it will keep melting down because Apple products start to suck. One fundamental problem with Apple that Cook failed to fix and DED failed to address is Apple's perennially weak cloud. Without a strong cloud, iPhone becomes more a jewelry item than a useful device (I know, the comparison is extreme, iPhone is still a good phone but I want to drive the point). DED barely mentions cloud in his post saying it "need to be fixed or improved." Right.... Eddy Cue can fix the cloud, and you know what else... pigs can fly. One question every Apple investor should ask is this. Are Apple products as useful and as easy to use relative to their competition as they used to be? If not, then they do not justify the premium price Apple demands for them; Apple's popularity will go down and so will its stock.
Maybe iCloud don't work for you, but I'm a long time Apple used, and to me it works fine, I'm very happy with it, and had make me extend my user satisfaction of Apple products, handoff works fantastic, and all my important stuff is in iCloud and It syncs fast and perfectly. I know all the fame Dropbox have, but to me proved useless, something that didn't happen with iCloud.
About AAPL stock, it can on can't melt whatever and for the time people want, but you can deny what you see, and that's what Wall Street is doing, but the real deal is that Apple is the most profitable company ever, and its not based on commodities booming as in oil companies had been. So they have pricing power. And based in its last 10-K and the guidance of the first quarter it will be this year again. So, go on, keep on dreaming of Apple going down the cliff and forget a stock that in the worst case scenario can give its shareholders 30$ per share cash, and still have enough money to outperform the rest of the tech industry.
What really surprise me in this Apple Insider vs. Business Insider articles is no reference to the guy that created it, A guy that's can't be a broker anymore because he manipulated stock prices and investors misleading them to stocks with a very dubious value. C'mon the guy paid a big fine to avoid ending in the joint. That's Business Insider founder. I have ever ask myself why anybody can give any credibility to a blog founded by a felon whose crimes are related exactly with the same business he "inform" now.
"and while it lacks mobile apps" and, as you acknowledge, it has poor battery life, especially in tablet mode.
Pretty much definition of mobile is touch apps. Most of the applications available to Surface that you refer to are desktop applications.
As a standalone tablet, I'll take an iPad Pro over Surface
any day, and the Pencil over any stylus that MS comes up with. Again,
let the sales numbers demonstrate any success or failure.
Mobile device is a device that's ...mobile. And touch apps is part of it, not the whole story. Touch apps are great for mobile phones and tablets. But there are mobile users that need more than that in their device, and that's the reason notebooks and 2 in 1 exists.
Until developers convert desktop applications to touch or create
Universal apps, I stick by my statement that MS hasn't figured mobile
out.
Does that means that Apple don't understand notebooks and desktops, since Windows has far more applications?
As a standalone tablet, I'll take an iPad Pro over Surface any day, and
the Pencil over any stylus that MS comes up with. Again, let the sales
numbers demonstrate any success or failure.
And I know a lot of people will be as happy as you, same as many people how are happy with their Surface Pro devices. If your criteria of quality is sales numbers, then Lenovo, Dell and HP are far better than Apple computers, since they sell more PC's (and in some cases, they have better devices than Apple), and iWorks is awful, since MS Office sells much more (in this case, I agree with sales numbers).
Daniel Eran Dilger verbose posts supported by numerous charts give Apple investors exactly what they want to hear - that Apple is doing fantastic job and the bright future is ahead. Keep listening to this old DED tune, while AAPL stock melts down. And it will keep melting down because Apple products start to suck. One fundamental problem with Apple that Cook failed to fix and DED failed to address is Apple's perennially weak cloud. Without a strong cloud, iPhone becomes more a jewelry item than a useful device (I know, the comparison is extreme, iPhone is still a good phone but I want to drive the point). DED barely mentions cloud in his post saying it "need to be fixed or improved." Right.... Eddy Cue can fix the cloud, and you know what else... pigs can fly. One question every Apple investor should ask is this. Are Apple products as useful and as easy to use relative to their competition as they used to be? If not, then they do not justify the premium price Apple demands for them; Apple's popularity will go down and so will its stock.
My god... That is soooooooooo stupid. Just unbelievable.
My main desktop is Windows 10 and it had a lot of severe issues in the upgrades made it a bloody mess.
I'm a computer engineer from training and have used Windows since 3.0; I've had to endure quite a bit of MS... "QA" at work. Just one example, resetting all settings in the big november upgrades, which also made by Wifi completely flaky for 1.5 months until un update last week. I couldn't get WIFI to work for more than 1h at a time without having to manually reconnect (automatic didn't work); it's a know bug... Like that helps. Forced upgrades (you can sort of prevent it by claiming you'rer on a metered line, but that's one hell of a kludge). BTW, some upgrades are impossible to do, even manually, if you're on metered, which really weird (speach pack upgrades). I think they know people are using metering as a way to avoid updates. Privacy leaks... All over the place. BTW, the upgrade that fixed the WIFI, reset my defaults again and broke some third party apps.
I don't assume Windows 10 is perfect, but neither iOS or OS X. If you go to Apple forums, you'll see the long list of problems people have, including the never ending problem with wifi networks.
The number of security patches done by Microsoft is extreme for years on
end; no wonder they don't want anyone to look at the release notes
anymore.
MS releases security fixes in a regular schedule. Is that a bad thing?
In truth, if Apple release the crap Microsoft did over the year, there would be a riot.
Go to Apple forums and you'll see the issues people have with Apple products. There are no vendors immune to problems, including Apple.
Thank you Daniel once again telling it like it is. The recent click bait anti Apple stories have been ferocious lately. It's almost like they have been orchestrated.
One fundamental problem with Apple that Cook failed to fix and DED failed to address is Apple's perennially weak cloud.
I keep seeing this crap but I don't understand it.
Of ALL the cloud services I've tried iCloud is the MOST effective and stable of all of them. I've had no problems with Music, Photos, iCloud Drive, Pages, Numbers, in fact the only app I've had any real issues with was TapForms and that seems to be more an issue with the application than the iCloud service.
Dropbox is slow and tedious, OneDrive is pretty good but still suffers from the ancient way of thinking about file systems that Dropbox suffers from.
iCloud makes sense and it needs to be used more in my not so humble opinion.
Surface Pro is basically just a laptop with inferior keyboard/trackpad. And I'll bet most people who own Surface Book never detach the display to use in clipboard mode either.
Interesting that the Surface Pro 4 has a better keyboard than that Macbook. Does that, in your opinion, makes it an inferior notebook?
Not from my experience.
The Surface Pro is a nice unit don't get me wrong but it is neither a MacBook killer nor an iPad killer. It's just a nice laptop. It does however SUCK as a tablet. It is such a bulky tedious lug of a unit that anyone calling it a good tablet is completely devoid of any knowledge of what makes a good tablet.
Microsoft has done nothing with Windows 10 to make the Surface any different to its 15 years or so of laptops shoved into tablet form factors approach.
Microsoft just doesn't understand mobile as can be seen from its 20 or so years with WinCE/Windows Phone. It is however getting better with Windows Phone 8 but it is still nowhere close to matching iOS.
Does that means that Apple don't understand notebooks and desktops, since Windows has far more applications?
You made this claim based on the comment prior that mentioned most apps running for Windows 10 tablets including the Surface Pro aren't Metro apps and yet you've missed the point.
Metro apps are needed to make tablets viable because they are easier to use in the way that a tablet requires. Shoving a desktop app onto finger users is a punishment worse than death.
There is a reason why Apple has NOT done this with OS X and it's because it's a pain in the jacksy to operate a desktop app with your finger. Windows Phone 8+ works pretty damn well because ALL the apps are designed to work this one way. The Surface isn't designed this way and it just fails to be a usable device outside a mouse and keyboard which automatically means it's a product that shouldn't exist because it has no fit. It does too much not well.
Apple understands notebooks and tablets because they have designed successful interactions and made them specific to the platform. Microsoft is just rehashing old ideas. Didn't Einstein write something about the epitome of stupid is doing the same thing expecting different results?
WSJ running a story about Apple News rocky start. Just another example IMO of a less than stellar service coming out of Eddy Cue's shop and where Apple isn't doing a good job of explaining why it exists. I know what Apple News does but why did Apple feel they needed to create it? I must admit with Twitter, Facebook and plain old Safari I rarely use the News app. And I hate when someone shares an article the url redirects you to the app. What if I just want to read the story in the app I'm aready in? I just get this feeling News is going to turn out like newsstand and something Apple neglects once it's moved on to the next thing
"That means even if Microsoft does manage to stumble upon a
successful Surface launch, it will face intense competition from the
same commodity producers that Apple supposedly faces, but in Microsoft's
case, its competition will be able to run all the same software, making
it much harder for Surface to stand out from commodity PC tablets than
it has been for iPads."
IMO, Surface Pro has easily standout over other similar products, and
that may even include the iPad Pro.
Does the term "ripoff" applies to Apple devices, like the iPod, iPhone,
Apple Watch, Apple Music, iCloud and iPad / iPad Pro since there were similar
devices before Apple offerings?
The Newton started development in 1987 and Samsung was still making personal casette disk computers. Samsung deserves their complete collapse of profits while Apple runs away with all of it. Apple still only has 6% of computer market share and is making crazy amounts of money, 94% to go.
IMO, Surface Pro has easily standout over other similar products, and
that may even include the iPad Pro.
Does the term "ripoff" applies to Apple devices, like the iPod, iPhone,
Apple Watch, Apple Music, iCloud and iPad / iPad Pro since there were similar
devices before Apple offerings?
The Newton started development in 1987 and Samsung was still making personal casette disk computers. Samsung deserves their complete collapse of profits while Apple runs away with all of it. Apple still only has 6% of computer market share and is making crazy amounts of money, 94% to go.
Nonsense. While I agree that iCloud could use some fortifying, to think that's a "contributor" to AAPL's woes, it is not. How are cloud services keeping Android users happy? They're not. I'll easily bet that while free cloud options are aplenty, most Android users wouldn't couldn't even understand the concept, let alone know how to use it.
iCloud just seems so complicated. I have really no idea how to use it properly.
Comments
Pretty much definition of mobile is touch apps. Most of the applications available to Surface that you refer to are desktop applications. Until developers convert desktop applications to touch or create Universal apps, I stick by my statement that MS hasn't figured mobile out.
As a standalone tablet, I'll take an iPad Pro over Surface any day, and the Pencil over any stylus that MS comes up with. Again, let the sales numbers demonstrate any success or failure.
you mean Apple's management looks at their (current) products as a whole, sort of like the total return approach in investment management, instead of seeing each product as a standalone enterprise? I'm shocked.
Great article. Microsoft store own the mall still empty when I walked by today.
I'm a computer engineer from training and have used Windows since 3.0; I've had to endure quite a bit of MS... "QA" at work.
Just one example, resetting all settings in the big november upgrades, which also made by Wifi completely flaky for 1.5 months until un update last week.
I couldn't get WIFI to work for more than 1h at a time without having to manually reconnect (automatic didn't work); it's a know bug... Like that helps.
Forced upgrades (you can sort of prevent it by claiming you'rer on a metered line, but that's one hell of a kludge). BTW, some upgrades are impossible to do, even manually, if you're on metered, which really weird (speach pack upgrades). I think they know people are using metering as a way to avoid updates.
Privacy leaks... All over the place.
BTW, the upgrade that fixed the WIFI, reset my defaults again and broke some third party apps.
The number of security patches done by Microsoft is extreme for years on end; no wonder they don't want anyone to look at the release notes anymore.
I now wish I'd done a full on backup because now going back to 8.1 (which was a hell of a lot more stable, but 8.0 was a fracking embarassing mess).
In truth, if Apple release the crap Microsoft did over the year, there would be a riot.
All my other machines are Unix workstations and I have a Windows 8.1 laptop.
I don't use OSX, but in general it seems to be a good version from the start (better than the previous one) from reviews and friends I know have it.
I have lots of IOS devices though, 8.0 on older devices... Not good at all. So, that release was a definite letdown.
But, at least Apple did something about it. After those issues, Apple started to do the public betas and that has improved QA.
Still there is no forced upgrade anymore, so unless your device goes kaput and you need a full restore, you can stay on whatever mature version suits you.
Some are still on IOS 7.1.2
The 9.0 release has generally been OK compared to the previous one.
Ironically, it was the slowing down of Iphone 6 that stood out; not quite sure what caused that.
Change in the handling of video being the most probable culprit.
Yet, they fixed most issues by 9.2 that came out December 8 (so about 10 weeks after initial Iphone release).
Got it on 4 tablets, including an Ipad 2 and 4 iphones including a 4S.
Mobile device is a device that's ...mobile. And touch apps is part of it, not the whole story. Touch apps are great for mobile phones and tablets. But there are mobile users that need more than that in their device, and that's the reason notebooks and 2 in 1 exists.
Does that means that Apple don't understand notebooks and desktops, since Windows has far more applications?
And I know a lot of people will be as happy as you, same as many people how are happy with their Surface Pro devices. If your criteria of quality is sales numbers, then Lenovo, Dell and HP are far better than Apple computers, since they sell more PC's (and in some cases, they have better devices than Apple), and iWorks is awful, since MS Office sells much more (in this case, I agree with sales numbers).
Just unbelievable.
MS releases security fixes in a regular schedule. Is that a bad thing?
Go to Apple forums and you'll see the issues people have with Apple products. There are no vendors immune to problems, including Apple.The Surface Pro is a nice unit don't get me wrong but it is neither a MacBook killer nor an iPad killer. It's just a nice laptop. It does however SUCK as a tablet. It is such a bulky tedious lug of a unit that anyone calling it a good tablet is completely devoid of any knowledge of what makes a good tablet.
Microsoft has done nothing with Windows 10 to make the Surface any different to its 15 years or so of laptops shoved into tablet form factors approach.
Microsoft just doesn't understand mobile as can be seen from its 20 or so years with WinCE/Windows Phone. It is however getting better with Windows Phone 8 but it is still nowhere close to matching iOS.
You made this claim based on the comment prior that mentioned most apps running for Windows 10 tablets including the Surface Pro aren't Metro apps and yet you've missed the point.
Metro apps are needed to make tablets viable because they are easier to use in the way that a tablet requires. Shoving a desktop app onto finger users is a punishment worse than death.
There is a reason why Apple has NOT done this with OS X and it's because it's a pain in the jacksy to operate a desktop app with your finger. Windows Phone 8+ works pretty damn well because ALL the apps are designed to work this one way. The Surface isn't designed this way and it just fails to be a usable device outside a mouse and keyboard which automatically means it's a product that shouldn't exist because it has no fit. It does too much not well.
Apple understands notebooks and tablets because they have designed successful interactions and made them specific to the platform. Microsoft is just rehashing old ideas. Didn't Einstein write something about the epitome of stupid is doing the same thing expecting different results?
http://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-news-app-is-off-to-a-rocky-start-1452474159
Just curious...how many people here frequent the News app and would you say it's your major source of news?