Apple says San Bernardino iPhone case is 'unprecedented,' cannot be decided in a vacuum

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 47
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 33,407member
    CMA102DL said:
    spinnor said:
    Can someone please explain to me why Apple can't just give the government the information on the phone, destroy the phone and wait for the next mass murder case to have to open another phone? The government should not be able to open the phone, just Apple when there is such an extreme case at hand. Don't give the government the key to the phone just the info on the phone? I don't get it.

    Thanks for any help in understanding why Apple can't just give the government info on a phone of mass murderers on a case by case basis.
    Apple does not work for the US Govt.
    Creating backdoor software always creates the possibility of it leaking out, even at Apple. Remember how some Apple employees misplaced prototype iPhones in the past?
    And even if it does not leak out, engineers involved in the project now know how to develop a backdoor to the iPhone.
    This sets an ugly court precedence and it will be reused for every kind of encrypted technology.

    IMHO, the FBI and DOJ should serve the search warrant to the rightful owner of the phone and leave Apple out of it.
    Not only is there a risk of theft, there's a risk that Congress or a secret court commands Apple to turn over the software in the name of national security. I can see almost no good conclusion to this for Apple because the government will attack Apple for years until they get what they want. 

    Split Apple up into divisions (Apple EU, Apple Asia, Apple US, etc.) or into wholly separate businesses and let them comply with local laws so the entire company is not jeopardized.
    edited March 2016
  • Reply 22 of 47
    jungmarkjungmark Posts: 6,926member
    spinnor said:
    Can someone please explain to me why Apple can't just give the government the information on the phone, destroy the phone and wait for the next mass murder case to have to open another phone? The government should not be able to open the phone, just Apple when there is such an extreme case at hand. Don't give the government the key to the phone just the info on the phone? I don't get it.

    Thanks for any help in understanding why Apple can't just give the government info on a phone of mass murderers on a case by case basis.
    Because Apple doesn't have an existing tool to crack the iPhone. Apple doesn't work for the govt so it has no obligation to rewrite the OS to allow a backdoor. because this will set a legal precedent and the Feds will keep requesting more iPhones to be cracked. Today it's terrorism, tomorrow it's protestors/journalists. 
    ration al
  • Reply 23 of 47

    I read that Apple's legal counsel said that the All Writs Act isn't a "magic wand" that can be used for everything.


  • Reply 24 of 47
    sflocalsflocal Posts: 6,092member
    Isn't a lot of this going to be moot soon?  I mean, when all iPhones use TouchID, it'll just be a matter of using the terrorists' thumb to unlock the phone, whether by force (I didn't see it happen) or the thumb not necessarily being attached to his hand.

    Either way, I think it will be easier in certain ways down the road.
  • Reply 25 of 47
    One of the interesting aspects of that filing is that it clarifies that even though the All Writs Act was intended to be used in situations where Congress hadn't passed a specific law yet, it is still heavily based on common law precedents. In other words, you still need to be able to show precedent when using the All Writs Act. That's actually quite different than the way it's been reported in the press.
    ration al
  • Reply 26 of 47
    Thanks to all who responded! So as I understand it, in the case at hand, even Apple can not get the info off the phone, the encryption is that good?

    I completely agree that forcing Apple to produce phones that the government can open at will is a bad idea because sooner or later everyone will be hacking your phone.

    If the government wants phone info all they have to do is completely monitor and record all phone traffic, don't they do that anyway, wink, wink? I don't think most of the public is ok with that.

    If Apple wants to strengthen their support they need to make it simple for idiots like me to understand.

    Thanks again!
    jony0ewtheckman
  • Reply 27 of 47
    sflocal said:
    Isn't a lot of this going to be moot soon?  I mean, when all iPhones use TouchID, it'll just be a matter of using the terrorists' thumb to unlock the phone, whether by force (I didn't see it happen) or the thumb not necessarily being attached to his hand.

    Either way, I think it will be easier in certain ways down the road.
    No.

    To date, no version of TouchID does any additional checks that the person is alive when the fingerprint is presented.

    However, there are two things that need to be true for TouchID to unlock the phone:

    1. It is powered on, and after being powered on, it was unlocked with the passcode at least once.
    2. It has stayed on, and been unlocked at least once in the last 48 hours .

    If either of these things is false you need the passcode.

    Reboot the phone, or let it go flat, and bang, you need the passcode.

    in this case, the phone was found switched off (possibly flat).

    So even if it was a 5s or later, they'd still need the passcode.

    ewtheckman
  • Reply 28 of 47
    brakkenbrakken Posts: 687member
    spinnor said:
    Can someone please explain to me why Apple can't just give the government the information on the phone, destroy the phone and wait for the next mass murder case to have to open another phone? The government should not be able to open the phone, just Apple when there is such an extreme case at hand. Don't give the government the key to the phone just the info on the phone? I don't get it.

    Thanks for any help in understanding why Apple can't just give the government info on a phone of mass murderers on a case by case basis.
    Apple doesn't have 'the number'. It died with Farook. 
    The phone number was from at&t or whatnot. 
    The fbi deliberately prevented Apple from providing limited backup info. 

    Encryption is what keeps passcodes private - we choose them. Our passcodes that we each choose are not known by anyone - only ourselves. The passcode is the key that decrypts the phone. 

    You see, software and hardware encryption is the thing preventing access to the info, not Apple. Foe Apple to 'just give the info', they must write a new operating system, release it to be tested. It can then be installed on the phone as an update, and then the fbi can get the info. 

    Questions:
    Why isn't the fbi doing their own software efforts?
    Why did the fbi dekiberately interfere?
    Why are news people only saying negative things about Apple?
    How can the govt legally force a private company to destroy its decades of effort to make pur information more private and secure?
    Why are people with no technical expertise being listened to?
    Why do so many people want to do something which damages Apple, even though they use Apple products and benefit directly from Apple's technology and talent?
    Why is the American public supporting people like trump and coney, even though they are obviously scheming nastiness?
    What are the amandments of the US constitution for if the govt doesn't comply with them?
    etc
  • Reply 29 of 47
    tpkatsa said:
    This is a federal terrorism investigation. The privacy issue is moot because the ONE phone in question belonged to a terrorist who is now dead. Apple needs to be very careful with this. Being perceived to be on the wrong side of an FBI investigation of a terrorist act where 14 people were murdered can't be good for Apple's image. There are times to stick up for privacy rights, such as when the government tries to do things without a warrant, or otherwise tries to circumvent the process, but not when the government has a court order from a federal judge for assistance with a dead terrorist's phone. Apple needs to do the right thing here and help the feds get any and all information that will help us understand what led to the murder of 14 people - anything less is a disgrace and an affront to those who perished in the attack.
    If Apple actually had a tool that could assist the FBI , then this line of reasoning would have more merit.

    However, they do not. Such a tool would need to be built. 

    Apple are asserting, that such a tool , once built, can relatively easily be modified to work on any iPhone. As such , the very existence of such a tool presents a risk to all users of Apple devices, of which there are around 1 billion users.

    There is no information on this phone that will bring the dead back to life. Indeed, it is very likely, certainly beyond balance of probabilities, and possibly beyond reasonable doubt, that there is no information on this phone that is pertinent to the investigation. The two murderers were careful enough to destroy every other electronic device they had. Do you really think, that people who were that thorough and organized and prepared, left this phone untouched, if there was even the possibility of it containing information of value. Farouk knew the county created the ICloud account and had the ICloud password , why would he plot on such a device, given his other attention to detail and thoroughness ?

    This has nothing to do with the privacy of the Farooks, they are dead, and the phone was not their property.

    it has everything to do with the phones of tens of millions of US citizens, and over a billion people worldwide. If such a tool is built, Asumming what the US government is asking for is actually legal, under US law, and it may not be (a judge in New York ruled , very strongly, in a similar case, that it was not, at least in a criminal case) , do you think the US government is the only government allowed to order the tool be used ? What if a foreign government demands the tool be used against the phone of a US citizen ? 

    I have fought and killed terrorists in combat, and two of the things that separates us from them is the is rule of law, and protecting the weak. There are a lot of weak who need protection in that billion or so users. It is folly to harm the living in memory of the dead.


    ceek74jony0ration alewtheckman
  • Reply 30 of 47
    JeffA2JeffA2 Posts: 82member
    rob53 said:
    tpkatsa said:
    This is a federal terrorism investigation. The privacy issue is moot because the ONE phone in question belonged to a terrorist who is now dead. Apple needs to be very careful with this. Being perceived to be on the wrong side of an FBI investigation of a terrorist act where 14 people were murdered can't be good for Apple's image. There are times to stick up for privacy rights, such as when the government tries to do things without a warrant, or otherwise tries to circumvent the process, but not when the government has a court order from a federal judge for assistance with a dead terrorist's phone. Apple needs to do the right thing here and help the feds get any and all information that will help us understand what led to the murder of 14 people - anything less is a disgrace and an affront to those who perished in the attack.
    I'm tired of the terrorist label. It's used for anything and everything. There were more than one phone, it's just that the iPhone was the only one left intact. As for the fourteen people murdered, I like that word better than calling it a terrorist action. The murderer knew the people, he worked with them. Unfortunately, murders happen every day of every year. So does theft of personal information. Just because one judge demands Apple do something that's not allowed by law (read everything, don't just listen to Fox News) doesn't mean Apple hasn't cooperated. They have. Just because a judge demands something doesn't mean that judge knows what they're doing. They're human so not perfect. Sometimes judges need to be reminded what their job is and what limits there are on that job. I won't even go into the FBI since it continues to operate like it did when J. Edgar Hoover turned it into the equivalent of the Schutzstaffel (look it up), which is how it operates to this day. It's amazing how common citizens are required to abide by laws while the FBI and the other government underground organizations can do what ever they want to do, regardless of whether it's against the law. Oh, I forgot, you don't care about the law, all you care about it trying to get rid of terrorists.
    Wow...where did that come from? Are you actually saying that the San Bernadino killer was not a terrorist? That this was an 'ordinary' domestic crime that has no national security concerns? I agree that we shouldn't overreact but this wasn't some couple knocking over a 7-11. There are legitimate security concerns here.

    And you are totally correct that judges do make mistakes. That's what the appeal process is for. But the ultimate judgement is not up to Apple. They can make their case but they are not the decider in a democratic society.


    jony0
  • Reply 31 of 47
    JeffA2JeffA2 Posts: 82member

    foggyhill said:
    spinnor said:
    Can someone please explain to me why Apple can't just give the government the information on the phone, destroy the phone and wait for the next mass murder case to have to open another phone? The government should not be able to open the phone, just Apple when there is such an extreme case at hand. Don't give the government the key to the phone just the info on the phone? I don't get it.


    Thanks for any help in understanding why Apple can't just give the government info on a phone of mass murderers on a case by case basis.

    First:
    Because there is a chain of custody thing going here and if there was info on the phone, a whole the defense experts need to get a hold of this and the tools used, you can't just keep this at Apple.

    Secondly, this is not some trivial task, it's likely something that costs many millions and in facts creates a new version of IOS and quite some time to do. If Apple is compelled to do this work, why on earth should it not be compelled to so in the future using the same legal precedent. The All Writs Act in fact makes this highly probable by its very nature.
    Many in law enforcement all over the US, both the DOJ and local juridictions have clearly stated that they're if this work they'd do the same.

    Thirdly, this is not "some extreme case at hand". The terrorists are dead, they destroyed all the other evidence the had (two phones and hard drives), and even the FBI said it's likely there is nothing useful on these phones. So, it's very likely a precedent setting fishing expedition from the FBI.

    Mass murders occur ever other day in the US. How is this "more extreme"... It is not.

    Finally, the country itself could have installed a management software that would have made this thing pointless (they could have unlocked the phone) and the FBI could have had the contents of this phone but through their incompetence f*cked it up by changing the Icloud password.


    It's to be noted that if this was a 5s instead of a 5c, the work they;d be asking of Apple would be colossal and extremely costly and even risky. What's to stop them from simply making all those post 5 phones easier to hack then using the same "All Writs Act" logic. What pisses them off is after all that these phones in fact are getting harder and harder to get into even by Apple (and Apple is designing them this way).




    I'm sorry but this is riddled with factual errors:

    1. Apple is explicitly allowed to retain custody of the phone. They only  need to permit the FBI to have remote access to enter the PIN data.
    2. The modification to the phone software is explicitly restricted to RAM. Once this phone powers off, it will no longer contain the patch that the FBI has requested.
    3. Even Apple doesn't claim that the requested software will 'cost many millions' to develop.
    4. This was terrorist act inspired by a group hostile to the United States. These groups have demonstrated their ability and will to attack America. This is qualitatively different from other killings.
    5. The county did install management software on the phone. Unfortunately, it was not activated. They screwed up. Lots of IT departments do.
    6. The widely repeated idea that the FBI could have retrieved the data if only they had not changed the iCloud password has been debunked. What they did was stupid but it didn't really matter in the end -- the phone was in a powered-off state when recovered. At power-on it still requires a PIN.
    7. There is no reason that the 5S would be less vulnerable to the procedure requested by the FBI. 
    8. Nothing in this case prevents Apple from making future versions of iOS hardened against the procedure. All they have to do is require a PIN to be entered before the phone will enter DFU mode.
  • Reply 32 of 47
    JeffA2JeffA2 Posts: 82member
    brakken said:
    spinnor said:
    Can someone please explain to me why Apple can't just give the government the information on the phone, destroy the phone and wait for the next mass murder case to have to open another phone? The government should not be able to open the phone, just Apple when there is such an extreme case at hand. Don't give the government the key to the phone just the info on the phone? I don't get it.

    Thanks for any help in understanding why Apple can't just give the government info on a phone of mass murderers on a case by case basis.
    Apple doesn't have 'the number'. It died with Farook. 
    The phone number was from at&t or whatnot. 
    The fbi deliberately prevented Apple from providing limited backup info. 

    Encryption is what keeps passcodes private - we choose them. Our passcodes that we each choose are not known by anyone - only ourselves. The passcode is the key that decrypts the phone. 

    You see, software and hardware encryption is the thing preventing access to the info, not Apple. Foe Apple to 'just give the info', they must write a new operating system, release it to be tested. It can then be installed on the phone as an update, and then the fbi can get the info. 

    Questions:
    Why isn't the fbi doing their own software efforts?
    Why did the fbi dekiberately interfere?
    Why are news people only saying negative things about Apple?
    How can the govt legally force a private company to destroy its decades of effort to make pur information more private and secure?
    Why are people with no technical expertise being listened to?
    Why do so many people want to do something which damages Apple, even though they use Apple products and benefit directly from Apple's technology and talent?
    Why is the American public supporting people like trump and coney, even though they are obviously scheming nastiness?
    What are the amandments of the US constitution for if the govt doesn't comply with them?
    etc
    The FBI isn't doing their own software because a) it's harder for them without access to Apple's source code. Not impossible though. b) they would not be able to load the software onto the phone without having Apple sign it anyway. So Apple has to be complicit or it won't work.

  • Reply 33 of 47
    JeffA2JeffA2 Posts: 82member

    CMA102DL said:
    Apple does not work for the US Govt.
    Creating backdoor software always creates the possibility of it leaking out, even at Apple. Remember how some Apple employees misplaced prototype iPhones in the past?
    And even if it does not leak out, engineers involved in the project now know how to develop a backdoor to the iPhone.
    This sets an ugly court precedence and it will be reused for every kind of encrypted technology.

    IMHO, the FBI and DOJ should serve the search warrant to the rightful owner of the phone and leave Apple out of it.
    Not only is there a risk of theft, there's a risk that Congress or a secret court commands Apple to turn over the software in the name of national security. I can see almost no good conclusion to this for Apple because the government will attack Apple for years until they get what they want. 

    Split Apple up into divisions (Apple EU, Apple Asia, Apple US, etc.) or into wholly separate businesses and let them comply with local laws so the entire company is not jeopardized.
    Theft doesn't matter -- the code won't load onto any other phone without a valid Apple certificate. Turning the software over to any agency doesn't change this.


  • Reply 34 of 47
    Sign the Whitehouse petition here:
    https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/apple-privacy-petition

    Hurry, there are currently 23,000 signatures. 100,000 are needed by March 18 to require a Whitehouse response.
    The title of the petition is: 

    Halt efforts that compel Apple and other device makers to create a "backdoor" for the Government to access citizens data

  • Reply 35 of 47
    jungmarkjungmark Posts: 6,926member
    JeffA2 said:

    foggyhill said:

    First:
    Because there is a chain of custody thing going here and if there was info on the phone, a whole the defense experts need to get a hold of this and the tools used, you can't just keep this at Apple.

    Secondly, this is not some trivial task, it's likely something that costs many millions and in facts creates a new version of IOS and quite some time to do. If Apple is compelled to do this work, why on earth should it not be compelled to so in the future using the same legal precedent. The All Writs Act in fact makes this highly probable by its very nature.
    Many in law enforcement all over the US, both the DOJ and local juridictions have clearly stated that they're if this work they'd do the same.

    Thirdly, this is not "some extreme case at hand". The terrorists are dead, they destroyed all the other evidence the had (two phones and hard drives), and even the FBI said it's likely there is nothing useful on these phones. So, it's very likely a precedent setting fishing expedition from the FBI.

    Mass murders occur ever other day in the US. How is this "more extreme"... It is not.

    Finally, the country itself could have installed a management software that would have made this thing pointless (they could have unlocked the phone) and the FBI could have had the contents of this phone but through their incompetence f*cked it up by changing the Icloud password.


    It's to be noted that if this was a 5s instead of a 5c, the work they;d be asking of Apple would be colossal and extremely costly and even risky. What's to stop them from simply making all those post 5 phones easier to hack then using the same "All Writs Act" logic. What pisses them off is after all that these phones in fact are getting harder and harder to get into even by Apple (and Apple is designing them this way).




    I'm sorry but this is riddled with factual errors:

    1. Apple is explicitly allowed to retain custody of the phone. They only  need to permit the FBI to have remote access to enter the PIN data.
    2. The modification to the phone software is explicitly restricted to RAM. Once this phone powers off, it will no longer contain the patch that the FBI has requested.
    3. Even Apple doesn't claim that the requested software will 'cost many millions' to develop.
    4. This was terrorist act inspired by a group hostile to the United States. These groups have demonstrated their ability and will to attack America. This is qualitatively different from other killings.
    5. The county did install management software on the phone. Unfortunately, it was not activated. They screwed up. Lots of IT departments do.
    6. The widely repeated idea that the FBI could have retrieved the data if only they had not changed the iCloud password has been debunked. What they did was stupid but it didn't really matter in the end -- the phone was in a powered-off state when recovered. At power-on it still requires a PIN.
    7. There is no reason that the 5S would be less vulnerable to the procedure requested by the FBI. 
    8. Nothing in this case prevents Apple from making future versions of iOS hardened against the procedure. All they have to do is require a PIN to be entered before the phone will enter DFU mode.
    1. Until the FBI demands the tool and request it's use on 100s and 1000s of iPhones. 

    2.  You know this how?

    3. True but the Feds will keep requesting this tool and frankly no one works for free. 
    ewtheckman
  • Reply 36 of 47
    volcanvolcan Posts: 1,799member
    How does Apple or the FBI know that auto updates is enabled? From what I've heard that is the method recommended to install a new flawed iOS version. What if auto updates is disabled, then what?
  • Reply 37 of 47
    CMA102DLCMA102DL Posts: 121member
    JeffA2 said:

    I'm sorry but this is riddled with factual errors:

    1. Apple is explicitly allowed to retain custody of the phone. They only  need to permit the FBI to have remote access to enter the PIN data.
    2. The modification to the phone software is explicitly restricted to RAM. Once this phone powers off, it will no longer contain the patch that the FBI has requested.
    3. Even Apple doesn't claim that the requested software will 'cost many millions' to develop.
    4. This was terrorist act inspired by a group hostile to the United States. These groups have demonstrated their ability and will to attack America. This is qualitatively different from other killings.
    5. The county did install management software on the phone. Unfortunately, it was not activated. They screwed up. Lots of IT departments do.
    6. The widely repeated idea that the FBI could have retrieved the data if only they had not changed the iCloud password has been debunked. What they did was stupid but it didn't really matter in the end -- the phone was in a powered-off state when recovered. At power-on it still requires a PIN.
    7. There is no reason that the 5S would be less vulnerable to the procedure requested by the FBI. 
    8. Nothing in this case prevents Apple from making future versions of iOS hardened against the procedure. All they have to do is require a PIN to be entered before the phone will enter DFU mode.
    1. It would be good if Apple would get to keep the phone at the very end and destroy it. The phone is owned by the US Govt. and it is evidence, to be "borrowed" by Apple.
    2. Firmware is always stored in non-volatile memory. The US Govt. has made the case that they need some functions moved to RAM because they think that this will enable them to bruteforce the phone quicker. They want to connect to the phone via Wifi and be able to bruteforce remotely, so they say. Of course, we are not stupid. They will try to get a copy of the firmware via Wifi first. 
    3. It could definitely cost multiples of millions of dollars with 10 highly paid engineers and up to 4 weeks each on the project.
    4. Seriously, what makes this one more relevant to another mass shooting killing? All evidence in fact points to the fact that this was planned by Farook and wife and that other than help from a neighbor, they really received no other help. They were not connected with ISIS. ISIS wanted nothing to do with them. If Farook and Malik were well connected, then there would be tons of phone, social media and messaging metadata. But make no mistake, the FBI is labeling this as a "terrorist" attack for political reasons. Somehow the word "terrorism" makes this crime more relevant that others...which means that all of us in the USA need to give up our Constitutional rights for the greater good...This is stupid
    5, 6, 7 are just excuses
    8. No, once you have created this software, it could leak and compromise alike phones in the entire world and could be modified to compromise other phones. This is not about 1 iPhone. The DOJ has at least 170 phones that it needs unlocked and is looking to establish a court precedence. The FBI's goal is to ultimately entrap Apple and undermine everything Apple is doing to protect customer's data in their phones.

    I'd say NO to the FBI and DOJ.
    edited March 2016 ration al
  • Reply 38 of 47
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,310member
    http://www.theverge.com/2016/3/16/11244396/apple-vs-fbi-encryption-china-source-code-backdoor

    U.S. and China ratfuck citizens, smile and upload selfie to snapchat. World harmony follows.
  • Reply 39 of 47
    CMA102DLCMA102DL Posts: 121member
    tmay said:
    http://www.theverge.com/2016/3/16/11244396/apple-vs-fbi-encryption-china-source-code-backdoor

    U.S. and China ratfuck citizens, smile and upload selfie to snapchat. World harmony follows.
    It is funny how the article indicates that Apple has delivered a backdoored OS to China and that the FBI is using it now. Well, if that's the case, then the FBI does not need the current court order executed....The FBI is just desperate.
    edited March 2016
  • Reply 40 of 47
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,310member
    CMA102DL said:
    tmay said:
    http://www.theverge.com/2016/3/16/11244396/apple-vs-fbi-encryption-china-source-code-backdoor

    U.S. and China ratfuck citizens, smile and upload selfie to snapchat. World harmony follows.
    It is funny how the article indicates that Apple has delivered a backdoored OS to China and that the FBI is using it now. Well, if that's the case, then the FBI does not need the current court order executed....The FBI is just desperate.
    As I read it elsewhere, Apple gave China a device to examine for "clipper" type intrusion; Apple didn't provide source code or any potential backdoor. Maybe this visit has nothing to do with encryption, but it's hard to imagine the parties not discussing it.
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