Apple Stores suffering from 'cult' atmosphere, advancement barriers, says UK staffer

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 63
    #BlameMe#BlameMe Posts: 10member
    The confidentiality is only for a year after leaving. It's also not just the UK. It's an "interesting" beast, to say the least. Not sure about Cult lol. I will say that since leaving in December, one of our guys has been reminded twice about the confidentiality agreement for reasons stating that I am not to take part in any recruiting, hiring, or acting as a professional/personal reference for any current employee interested in leaving. He can't share too much info publicly before the year is over, but one it is, they'll be shared on the website is BlameMe.today. We'll be glad to share it with AI too
    edited May 2016
  • Reply 22 of 63
    michael_cmichael_c Posts: 164member

    The latter is often said to come into play for things Apple wants pushed on customers, like AppleCare warranties or in-store carrier sign-ups, even if they're irrelevant to the individual people clerks are dealing with. A clerk selling someone a Mac, for example, might later be chastised by a manager for not telling the customer about carrier sign-ups for iPhones.

    Apparently the employees who work at Apple stores I've gone to haven't read the "bulletin", as I've never had any sales people push any products or services.  Could be an anomaly for the UK Apple Store, or just a fabrication.
    ai46calibaconstang
  • Reply 23 of 63
    thewhitefalconthewhitefalcon Posts: 4,453member
    flootist said:
    New poster here, and I promise I'm not a troll. Hello to all. 

    Unfortunately this is all correct, and it has been their modus operandi from day one (which means it actually began under Jobs, though who knows? May have been Forestalls baby). 

    About ten years ago, I got hired twice at the local Apple store. I never accepted because of the low pay, which at the time was less than $7 an hour (though please note that geniuses make more than sales people).  No, there are no sales commissions or potentials for advancement. I actually made more working part time at a call center than I would have for the richest company on earth (and got benefits, too!). 

    I always assumed this was to keep their frontline comprised of young, 'hip' staff that don't need to rely on the job or just don't know any better, though I have seen the occasional employee over 30 since that time. 

    One last thing (no pun intended): Apple retail is a separate division internally, you are NOT working 'for Apple' proper. If you have fantasies of climbing the Apple ladder, forget it. The two divisions do not intermingle.

    Depending on a person's needs and temperament, it could be fun, but there are other non-professional jobs that offer more to their employees. Heck, you'd likely do better waiting tables or working for Geek Squad.
    What the heck does Scott Forstall have to do with Apple Retail? He was an engineer, Ron Johnson was in charge of Retail under Jobs. 
    calibaconstangmwhitenolamacguythepixeldoc
  • Reply 24 of 63
    flootist said:
    New poster here, and I promise I'm not a troll. Hello to all. 

    Also new poster but and also a former retail employee.

    Unfortunately this is all correct, and it has been their modus operandi from day one (which means it actually began under Jobs, though who knows? May have been Forestalls baby). 
    I am surprised you did not mention Ron Johnson who was senior vice president of retail operations at the time and gave a video address to retail store employees at every all staff meeting about goals, successes, and new programs.
    About ten years ago, I got hired twice at the local Apple store. I never accepted because of the low pay, which at the time was less than $7 an hour (though please note that geniuses make more than sales people).  No, there are no sales commissions or potentials for advancement. I actually made more working part time at a call center than I would have for the richest company on earth (and got benefits, too!). 

    I worked in two different stores for 4 years started around 2008. Started in the Midwest and transferred to the New England area. Starting pay varied widely based on region. For example my starting pay was a little over $10 (sales associate) in the midwest but was closer to $14 - $15 when I moved to the New England area with my wife. The pay increase from my move was not a raise but rather to match the pay for that region. The pay rate was much higher than the average in both malls I worked in and was huge attractor to applicants who currently worked in the mall but wanted to start working at the Apple Store.

    I worked as a sales associate for 1 and 1/2 years before moving to the business team for a year, then Creative 1 and 1/2 years. I was on the list of potential candidates for Lead Creative when my wife's job required us to move again and I decided to take a different job in our new state.

    Every store is different but as far as advancement potential all of our Creative staff were promoted from within the sales staff and almost all our Genius staff were the same. One of the genius staff moved on to work for Apple corporate through a program that give retail staff a chance to advance to corporate that began with a 3 month trial which at the end payed for him and his family to move to Cupertino.

    The biggest problem with advancement is the competition. There are a lot of retail employees and you really need to be an outstanding employee to move up. In some office jobs there is an idea that simply being a standard employee for years entitles you to advancement, but at Apple retail you need to prove yourself to earn an advancement which isn't going to work for everyone, especially at stores that have a lot of star employees.


    I always assumed this was to keep their frontline comprised of young, 'hip' staff that don't need to rely on the job or just don't know any better, though I have seen the occasional employee over 30 since that time. 

    Again, all stores are different. Both stores I worked at had a lot of young employees, but also a mix of all ages. I would say over half the midwest staff were over 30 and smilier on the East coast. The young employees are the ones that come and go fast so the older ones stuck around and were really appreciated. We even had a staff member who was over 60. I myself was in my 20's during my time at Apple. They didn't hire the younger employees for show, it was because that is who most of the applicants were.

    One last thing (no pun intended): Apple retail is a separate division internally, you are NOT working 'for Apple' proper. If you have fantasies of climbing the Apple ladder, forget it. The two divisions do not intermingle.

    I think the truth is that working retail is not the best way to get the relevant job experience necessary to work many of the corporate jobs. Like I said above we did have a Genius move from retail to corporate because they have a recruitment program designed specifically to help employees make the jump. If you want to become the regional sales manager for education in your area, then yes retail is a place you could start. But if want to be a software engineer then a retail job at Apple isn't the best path.

    My management always made it clear what the path was for advancement within the retail environment. When I wanted to move from the business team to Creative I told the management staff my desire and they gave me a roadmap of what they expected of me and when openings became available. They also assisted me when I need to transfer to a different state for my spouses work. Quality of management can vary from store to store but one experience with a particular management team is not necessarily a representation of the retail experience.

    Depending on a person's needs and temperament, it could be fun, but there are other non-professional jobs that offer more to their employees. Heck, you'd likely do better waiting tables or working for Geek Squad.

    I applied for a job with the Geek Squad the exact same time I applied at Apple while living in the midwest. The pay rate was the same. Once again regionally this could be different.
    bobschlobai46calibaconstangzimmermannmwhitejbdragonpscooter63stevehroundaboutnow
  • Reply 25 of 63
    mac_128mac_128 Posts: 3,454member
    wigby said:.

    Also, at times, it did feel like the interviewee was a composite of a few different people because they said contradictory things like "we are told not to push services" and then "we are only told to push services like Apple care". And at one point they said it was great to work there but then later said it was a terrible place to work. Not sure how to reconcile those discrepancies but overall an interesting and fairly believable piece.

    These points don't pose a problem for me. I work at a terrible company, but it's a great place to work because of the people in my department. No job is perfect (at least that's what I tell myself). It's all trade offs.

    As for Apple pushing and not pushing things, we've seen the leaked memo where customers who made appointments to try on a watch we're then supposed to be urged to reserve one. But my normal experience is one where they never so much as suggest something to go with my intended purchase unless I ask, with the exception of Apple Care +
    ai46baconstang
  • Reply 26 of 63
    #BlameMe#BlameMe Posts: 10member
    The confidentiality is only for 365 days after leaving. It's also not just the UK. Since leaving in December, one of our guys has been reminded twice from Apple about the confidentiality agreement for reasons stating that he can not take part in any recruiting, hiring, or acting as a professional/personal reference for any current employee interested in leaving during those 365 days. Call it how you see it. Ask any 2-3 year seasoned Apple retail employee about this being present in their store, majority will nod their head yes.
    mac_128steveh
  • Reply 27 of 63
    bobschlobbobschlob Posts: 1,074member
    Slurpy, far from it being agenda driven it highlights the challenges companies have with retaining and inspiring staff even for the halo brands.

    All major companies have annual internal surveys, they act as a temperature check for the company. Apple is no different and certainly not perfect. Having worked for one of their past Directors of Learning and development you understand the use and power of 'cult of brand' it has strengths and weaknesses. They aren't the first to use cult or hero brand to control staff. Disney wrote the handbook. 

    Apple work in a retail market, typically with extended hours an Apple store can have several hundred people working there. All with dreams and aspirations both internal and external. Advancement will generally drive from development in role or change of job role in store or head office. Those opportunities are limited and with such numbers there is naturally frustration for some. Apple like other retailers will try and create development paths by creating several roles with increased responsibilities, pay and reward but can still have challenge to providing meaningful opportunity. 

    Like most retailers Apple link pay to additional sales targets, these can be difficult for some as cross sell, up sell does grate at some individuals sense of customer service (if the customer has insurance why should I try and sell to him). Companies are driving their sales staff to form life style relationships with customers. Pick up the phone to any bank and they'll be asking any questions from "what are you doing this weekend, to how's your week been". Some customers like this, many don't, it's about trust. 

    360 feedback has been a popular tool for major companies. Some encourage 'frank' feedback based on the theory of high performing teams. Others will look to draw constructive feedback. Daily feedback is ritualistic and frankly tiring to both individuals giving it and receiving it. Far better that the manager working with their team gives daily feedback through coaching. 

    Slurpy, Apple has a brilliant brand and it is far from perfect, try to step from under your Apple duvet and see the validity of the article. 
    No you are wrong (particularly, first sentence).
    The issue here is simply your lack of familiarity with Business insider, or you are one of their flunkies.
    calibaconstangericthehalfbeepscooter63
  • Reply 28 of 63
    #BlameMe#BlameMe Posts: 10member
    Slurpy, Some of our guys have even worked for the stores. The happiest were either the well paid ones, the top sellers, or the drugged up ones. It's a great company. But, just like every great person, they have their dark demons. We just hope they truly are doing all of this "good" for the right reasons. Sometimes you wish not to be right about certain topics.
    edited May 2016 mac_128
  • Reply 29 of 63
    bobschlobbobschlob Posts: 1,074member

    blitz1 said:
    Having trouble with her being Korean-American? Is it any relevant?
    It could have been to subtle for you. It was an attempt to show that there might be a biased toward a certain Korean Company on the Part of Miss Lee.
    So then, where have you heard her pumping said Korean company?
    And no; it was not subtle. Couldn't have been less subtle. Just not well thought out at all.
    edited May 2016 waverboy
  • Reply 30 of 63
    bobschlobbobschlob Posts: 1,074member
    flootist said:
    New poster here, and I promise I'm not a troll. Hello to all. 

    Also new poster but and also a former retail employee.

    I am surprised you did not mention Ron Johnson who was senior vice president of retail operations at the time and gave a video address to retail store employees at every all staff meeting about goals, successes, and new programs.

    I worked in two different stores for 4 years started around 2008. Started in the Midwest and transferred to the New England area. Starting pay varied widely based on region. For example my starting pay was a little over $10 (sales associate) in the midwest but was closer to $14 - $15 when I moved to the New England area with my wife. The pay increase from my move was not a raise but rather to match the pay for that region. The pay rate was much higher than the average in both malls I worked in and was huge attractor to applicants who currently worked in the mall but wanted to start working at the Apple Store.

    I worked as a sales associate for 1 and 1/2 years before moving to the business team for a year, then Creative 1 and 1/2 years. I was on the list of potential candidates for Lead Creative when my wife's job required us to move again and I decided to take a different job in our new state.

    Every store is different but as far as advancement potential all of our Creative staff were promoted from within the sales staff and almost all our Genius staff were the same. One of the genius staff moved on to work for Apple corporate through a program that give retail staff a chance to advance to corporate that began with a 3 month trial which at the end payed for him and his family to move to Cupertino.

    The biggest problem with advancement is the competition. There are a lot of retail employees and you really need to be an outstanding employee to move up. In some office jobs there is an idea that simply being a standard employee for years entitles you to advancement, but at Apple retail you need to prove yourself to earn an advancement which isn't going to work for everyone, especially at stores that have a lot of star employees.



    Again, all stores are different. Both stores I worked at had a lot of young employees, but also a mix of all ages. I would say over half the midwest staff were over 30 and smilier on the East coast. The young employees are the ones that come and go fast so the older ones stuck around and were really appreciated. We even had a staff member who was over 60. I myself was in my 20's during my time at Apple. They didn't hire the younger employees for show, it was because that is who most of the applicants were.


    I think the truth is that working retail is not the best way to get the relevant job experience necessary to work many of the corporate jobs. Like I said above we did have a Genius move from retail to corporate because they have a recruitment program designed specifically to help employees make the jump. If you want to become the regional sales manager for education in your area, then yes retail is a place you could start. But if want to be a software engineer then a retail job at Apple isn't the best path.

    My management always made it clear what the path was for advancement within the retail environment. When I wanted to move from the business team to Creative I told the management staff my desire and they gave me a roadmap of what they expected of me and when openings became available. They also assisted me when I need to transfer to a different state for my spouses work. Quality of management can vary from store to store but one experience with a particular management team is not necessarily a representation of the retail experience.


    I applied for a job with the Geek Squad the exact same time I applied at Apple while living in the midwest. The pay rate was the same. Once again regionally this could be different.
    Wow.
    A factually based, unbiased, post.
    What the hell is that doing here?
    staticx57caliwaverboybaconstanganantksundarammwhitejbdragonpscooter63stevehthepixeldoc
  • Reply 31 of 63
    calicali Posts: 3,494member
    #BlameMe said:
    Slurpy, Some of our guys have even worked for the stores. The happiest were either the well paid ones, the top sellers, or the drugged up ones. It's a great company. But, just like every great person, they have their dark demons. We just hope they truly are doing all of this "good" for the right reasons. Sometimes you wish not to be right about certain topics.
    Yes working at the  Apple Store is such a dark dark demon....

    bobschlob said:

    Also new poster but and also a former retail employee.

    I am surprised you did not mention Ron Johnson who was senior vice president of retail operations at the time and gave a video address to retail store employees at every all staff meeting about goals, successes, and new programs.

    I worked in two different stores for 4 years started around 2008. Started in the Midwest and transferred to the New England area. Starting pay varied widely based on region. For example my starting pay was a little over $10 (sales associate) in the midwest but was closer to $14 - $15 when I moved to the New England area with my wife. The pay increase from my move was not a raise but rather to match the pay for that region. The pay rate was much higher than the average in both malls I worked in and was huge attractor to applicants who currently worked in the mall but wanted to start working at the Apple Store.

    I worked as a sales associate for 1 and 1/2 years before moving to the business team for a year, then Creative 1 and 1/2 years. I was on the list of potential candidates for Lead Creative when my wife's job required us to move again and I decided to take a different job in our new state.

    Every store is different but as far as advancement potential all of our Creative staff were promoted from within the sales staff and almost all our Genius staff were the same. One of the genius staff moved on to work for Apple corporate through a program that give retail staff a chance to advance to corporate that began with a 3 month trial which at the end payed for him and his family to move to Cupertino.

    The biggest problem with advancement is the competition. There are a lot of retail employees and you really need to be an outstanding employee to move up. In some office jobs there is an idea that simply being a standard employee for years entitles you to advancement, but at Apple retail you need to prove yourself to earn an advancement which isn't going to work for everyone, especially at stores that have a lot of star employees.



    Again, all stores are different. Both stores I worked at had a lot of young employees, but also a mix of all ages. I would say over half the midwest staff were over 30 and smilier on the East coast. The young employees are the ones that come and go fast so the older ones stuck around and were really appreciated. We even had a staff member who was over 60. I myself was in my 20's during my time at Apple. They didn't hire the younger employees for show, it was because that is who most of the applicants were.


    I think the truth is that working retail is not the best way to get the relevant job experience necessary to work many of the corporate jobs. Like I said above we did have a Genius move from retail to corporate because they have a recruitment program designed specifically to help employees make the jump. If you want to become the regional sales manager for education in your area, then yes retail is a place you could start. But if want to be a software engineer then a retail job at Apple isn't the best path.

    My management always made it clear what the path was for advancement within the retail environment. When I wanted to move from the business team to Creative I told the management staff my desire and they gave me a roadmap of what they expected of me and when openings became available. They also assisted me when I need to transfer to a different state for my spouses work. Quality of management can vary from store to store but one experience with a particular management team is not necessarily a representation of the retail experience.


    I applied for a job with the Geek Squad the exact same time I applied at Apple while living in the midwest. The pay rate was the same. Once again regionally this could be different.
    Wow.
    A factually based, unbiased, post.
    What the hell is that doing here?
    It's a first post too. Strange.
    thepixeldoc
  • Reply 32 of 63
    mac_128mac_128 Posts: 3,454member
    £8 per hour. Geez, I think one of the major German supermarkets operating the the UK pays more, probably for less hassle. £8 is standard for anything customer facing and unskilled in London - even for agency work. From a UK customer perspective, we find up-selling embarrassing and humiliating. 
    This is an interesting perspective on global wages:

    How Many Hours Does an iPhone Cost? - The New York Times
    edited May 2016
  • Reply 33 of 63
    mac_128 said:
    £8 per hour. Geez, I think one of the major German supermarkets operating the the UK pays more, probably for less hassle. £8 is standard for anything customer facing and unskilled in London - even for agency work. From a UK customer perspective, we find up-selling embarrassing and humiliating. 
    This is an interesting perspective on global wages:

    How Many Hours Does an iPhone Cost? - The New York Times
    With average rents for a room (not an apartment, just a room) at £700 per month, most workers at this level are going to look to optimise either their work conditions, how far they have to travel or look for the possibility of progression to make the job worth it. £8 per hour jobs are ten a penny as the UK economy generates lots of unskilled service roles. Employers can get plenty of labour, but it doesn't buy loyalty. The pay is surprising since Apple is high-end but essentially pays the same employers at the lower end who sell high volume but low profit goods. If I were a potential employee I'd wonder if imported work practices were the sort of environment I'd wish to work in and with no possibility of progression it's just another dead-end employer. 
  • Reply 34 of 63
    blitz1blitz1 Posts: 433member
    blitz1 said:
    Having trouble with her being Korean-American? Is it any relevant?
    It could have been to subtle for you. It was an attempt to show that there might be a biased toward a certain Korean Company on the Part of Miss Lee.
    I perfectly understood the xenophobic bias... just wanted to hear it out loud
  • Reply 35 of 63
    Advancement is an issue throughout the business world. If you look at the structure of the typical business in the West, there are significantly fewer opportunities in the upper half of an organization than the lower half. So where is everyone in the lower half going to get the opportunity to move into the upper half? Possibly by moving to a different company, but then you're still faced with the same type of bottom heavy opportunity structure. Truth is, most people aren't going to get an opportunity and it's not primarily based on their merits. It's based on the math regarding the openings. 
    edited May 2016 nolamacguy
  • Reply 36 of 63
    I actually went to the Genius Bar yesterday for an iPhone proximity sensor issue. Every single customer there was nasty and pissed off. I tried to explain to one customer while we were waiting that just resetting and restoring from an iCloud backup will not necessarily solve a problem because the corruption could be in the backup itself. With no understanding of technology, the customer blamed Apple for this as well...
    mwhitejbdragonthepixeldocwelshdog
  • Reply 37 of 63
    freerangefreerange Posts: 1,597member
    AI, show some journalistic integrity. Why are you repeating and publishing this absolute bullshit. An interview with one obviously disgruntled employee is absolutely meaningless. What the interviewer should have said is, "then why the FK don't you just go find another job?" Stupidity repeated is still stupidity.
    baconstang
  • Reply 38 of 63
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 9,233member
    Who gives a crap about what one idiot UK staffer has to say?

    Apple has many thousands of employees, and if one unhappy employee disagrees with the way that things are done and Apple policies, then the dumbass should immediately quit and leave. Go work someplace else.

    This is journalism? Making a whole article based on what ONE employee thinks? What kind of shoddy garbage is that?



    mwhiteLoneStar88
  • Reply 39 of 63
    chez whiteychez whitey Posts: 148member
    I always buy AppleCare for all our Apple products and have always been treated more than fairly at the Apple Store, same with phone/online tech support 
  • Reply 40 of 63
    chez whiteychez whitey Posts: 148member
    blitz1 said:
    Having trouble with her being Korean-American? Is it any relevant?
    It could have been to subtle for you. It was an attempt to show that there might be a biased toward a certain Korean Company on the Part of Miss Lee.
    Regardless of her nationality she has made a living bashing Apple maybe more to do with sensationalism for ratings than trying to promote Samsung?
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