I think that the plan is that Swift will [eventually] replace client-side programming languages such as JavaScript.
Good luck convincing W3C to standardize on Swift to replace CSSx, HTMLx, and Javascript, at least not any time soon. It has only taken them 20+ years to get all the browser apps sort of compliant. Swift might potentially become a new server side language such as dotNet, but it will have a long way to go before it will be client side, if ever, with the possible exception of Mac nerds running Xcode. I expect it will be at least another 20 years before it becomes a go-to language across the mainstream platforms. Likely, it will remain just like it is now, programmers will select whatever language they prefer. If anything, Swift will just join the others like Java, PHP, ASP.Net, Ruby, Python, etc. It is not likely to replace anything except maybe Obj-C, at least in my opinion, especially not universally across all web browsers.
It is fun. This is complex stuff that being trivialized only adds frustration to the kid [who Tim thinks every kid should become a programmer: an absolutely terrible fantasy] when they discover they cannot master it.
I'm not sure where the idea that every kid needs to learn coding came from. It is almost as stupid as learning a second language for every kid in school, it really serves no purpose. I think it is a liberal thing where everybody born has the same sets of skills and abilities in their minds. People need to instead realize that people are born with innate strengths and weaknesses, not everyone is a mathematician, nor does everyone have the ability to be an engineer or create fine art.
Liberal thing? Really? Teaching children is an important requirement that here in the United States we seem to have lost sight of while other countries have increased their focus. Our high school graduates can barely read and they have only basic math and science skills. High tech corporations have had to either recruit from other nations or in some cases even move their development groups overseas.
Not every student is going to become a programmer. If they aren't introduced to the basic concepts and what they can accomplish at a young age then an opportunity is lost to find those with talent that can be focused on. If education of children is a liberal thing then I choose that over what the conservative thing is. Actually, I think we are currently witnessing the conservative thing in our nations schools. When private universities and colleges as well as Ivy League schools are resorting to remedial classes for incoming students there is a crisis in our K-12 system. The United States is falling behind the rest of the world at a record pace and Tim Cook is Partnering with IBM to help in this one way to provide our kids a chance for a decent chance in the world.
One more thing. What's wrong with learning a second language? I've traveled to many other countries and have found that almost everywhere I have been most people under the age of 50 speak English as well as their native language. Some speak multiple languages. It's time we all learned that it's a big world and to be successful sometimes a second language could mean the difference between writing a few apps targeting Americans or working for one of the most valuable corporations in the world creating the next thing in search, mobile, desktop, office applications, programming languages or creating a completely new market.
Apple has to lock down the development for now because someone could develop a program that would damage the system, maybe even jailbreak it and they wouldn't have a way to fix it. If they figure out a permissions model that lets them run code without the possibility of damaging anything, they'll be able to let the iPad do more. Apple's new filesystem might be a part of that as it can create expandable filesystem containers.
Good points, all!
I've heard rumors about a new filesystem -- didn't know it used containers. IBM is using Docker Containers for its implementations, including Swift.
Do you have any link about Apple's new filesystem?
I guess I'm old and jaded. As a professional software developer I find it really hard to believe coding on the iPad will produce anything "real". Maybe it will give people a taste of breaking a problem down into steps, working with picky syntax, and introduce some other basic software production concepts. But compared to XCode, Eclipse, NetBeans, IntelliJ, and other "real" development environments, Swift Playground seems almost delusional.
You had me at "old and jaded." So why did you go on?
I kinda think Apple knows what it's doing. So, let it be, pal.
I've been trying to learn Apple OS programming for too many years, but none of you smug bastards ever seemed to want to provide any comprehensive path to learning what y'all know. Sure, there's a lot of documentation out there, but that in itself has been a barrier for me: where to start? where to go if I had a problem? how to learn basic concepts and design paradigms?, etc.
Well, this to me seems like finally a comprehendible bridge into Apple OS programming which finally gives some immediate feedback through Swift's "playgrounds" without the relative complexity of XCode.
It also gives me a good reason to need and want an iPad. I'm excited!
Well said! I completely agree with the term "smug bastards". Never helpful, always critical of anyone without experience. Some people just want to learn but don't need the "I don't have time for you and you're stupid" BS.
I've been trying to learn Apple OS programming for too many years, but none of you smug bastards ever seemed to want to provide any comprehensive path to learning what y'all know. Sure, there's a lot of documentation out there, but that in itself has been a barrier for me: where to start? where to go if I had a problem? how to learn basic concepts and design paradigms?, etc.
Well, this to me seems like finally a comprehendible bridge into Apple OS programming which finally gives some immediate feedback through Swift's "playgrounds" without the relative complexity of XCode.
It also gives me a good reason to need and want an iPad. I'm excited!
Edit: Playgrounds looks pretty good so far -- basic teaching, you are using complexity -- functions like moveForward() without needing to explain syntax or complexity. It is straight forward, provides hints, acknowledges failure, and reinforces success ... pretty good teaching/learning techniques for complex subjects.
Reminds me of the old saw where the teacher writes 2 + 2 = 4 on the board -- and one student goes crazy: oh yeah, all right ... what's a 4?
how and why on earth you would be comparing it to Xcode is a mystery.
Because the touchy-feely video had people gushing about how they're going to change the world now that they know how to code. Umm... Swift Playground is not "really" coding. It's tiny sketches in a tightly controlled environment. Doodles vs blueprints. Yes, it may help people learn some very simple basics and see if they grok coding. But they'll have a long way to go before being a software developer.
That's the point. Making the learning experience more open and welcoming to new coders is the only way they are going to have enough programmers available in the future. If kids learn early and then decide if programming is for them, Apple has succeeded.
I guess I'm old and jaded. As a professional software developer I find it really hard to believe coding on the iPad will produce anything "real". Maybe it will give people a taste of breaking a problem down into steps, working with picky syntax, and introduce some other basic software production concepts. But compared to XCode, Eclipse, NetBeans, IntelliJ, and other "real" development environments, Swift Playground seems almost delusional.
You had me at "old and jaded." So why did you go on?
I kinda think Apple knows what it's doing. So, let it be, pal.
I've been trying to learn Apple OS programming for too many years, but none of you smug bastards ever seemed to want to provide any comprehensive path to learning what y'all know. Sure, there's a lot of documentation out there, but that in itself has been a barrier for me: where to start? where to go if I had a problem? how to learn basic concepts and design paradigms?, etc.
Well, this to me seems like finally a comprehendible bridge into Apple OS programming which finally gives some immediate feedback through Swift's "playgrounds" without the relative complexity of XCode.
It also gives me a good reason to need and want an iPad. I'm excited!
Didn't know quite where to drop this comment, hope you don't mind my piggybacking on yours.
I do understand the "yeah, sure" attitudes of people who've invested so much time and spleen in learning to code. But even candy-coated come-ons are useful in rearranging a child's neurons in learning a particular way of problem-solving. Get 'em while they're young and front-load the educational system. That's mainly what excites me about this, the prospect of seeing my grandniece learn software engineering starting with a set of "silly, useless" coloured blocks. Later on in life, her aptitude tests will reflect her experience working with logical constructs, and a barrier to college entry vanishes. If grizzled old programmers want to dismiss impure tinkertoy tools, as I said, I understand why; but girls in particular need more help getting into the STEM disciplines, and this resource will help. When Grizzled Programmer retires, my grandniece may well take his place, because she had prep.
It is fun. This is complex stuff that being trivialized only adds frustration to the kid [who Tim thinks every kid should become a programmer: an absolutely terrible fantasy] when they discover they cannot master it.
I'm not sure where the idea that every kid needs to learn coding came from. It is almost as stupid as learning a second language for every kid in school, it really serves no purpose. I think it is a liberal thing where everybody born has the same sets of skills and abilities in their minds. People need to instead realize that people are born with innate strengths and weaknesses, not everyone is a mathematician, nor does everyone have the ability to be an engineer or create fine art.
Your ideas are outmoded. People are NOT born with innate strengths and weaknesses. Abilities are fostered and developed through socialisation, child development and the educational system. From birth everyone has a chance to develop abilities you claim are out of reach. Everyone isn't a mathematician, engineer, or artist, but every child has a chance to become one, given the right circumstances.
I guess I'm old and jaded. As a professional software developer I find it really hard to believe coding on the iPad will produce anything "real". Maybe it will give people a taste of breaking a problem down into steps, working with picky syntax, and introduce some other basic software production concepts. But compared to XCode, Eclipse, NetBeans, IntelliJ, and other "real" development environments, Swift Playground seems almost delusional.
Oh my, NetBeans "real".... Say it isn't so. For me me real, is coding in assembly and C/C++ or even microcode, or VHDL, so hey ;-).
Yeah, I deal with the higher level stuff too... But that's way too trippy (sic) , detached from real, for me.
I always find it weird those kind of assertions; my abstraction is better than that other level of abstraction.... Seems like several level of INCEPTION to me ;-). But, hey, I'm in the real world, I swear I am, by top is NOT spinning forever.
I'm not sure where the idea that every kid needs to learn coding came from. It is almost as stupid as learning a second language for every kid in school, it really serves no purpose. I think it is a liberal thing where everybody born has the same sets of skills and abilities in their minds. People need to instead realize that people are born with innate strengths and weaknesses, not everyone is a mathematician, nor does everyone have the ability to be an engineer or create fine art.
Your ideas are outmoded. People are NOT born with innate strengths and weaknesses. Abilities are fostered and developed through socialisation, child development and the educational system. From birth everyone has a chance to develop abilities you claim are out of reach. Everyone isn't a mathematician, engineer, or artist, but every child has a chance to become one, given the right circumstances.
Yes, the brain is a lot more plastic and adaptable (at all ages, another discovery) than people ever imagined. We truly are not using all out potential : children or all background and adults.
I'm not sure where the idea that every kid needs to learn coding came from. It is almost as stupid as learning a second language for every kid in school, it really serves no purpose. I think it is a liberal thing where everybody born has the same sets of skills and abilities in their minds. People need to instead realize that people are born with innate strengths and weaknesses, not everyone is a mathematician, nor does everyone have the ability to be an engineer or create fine art.
It is not a 'liberal' thing. Tim is simply suggesting that introduction to coding be a required subject like math or PE. They don't expect everyone to become an app developer any more than they expect them to become a mathematician or play for a professional sports team. Students should get some introductory exposure to coding like any other required subject, because basic understanding of the principles of coding can be a useful skill later in life, perhaps to build confidence to add some simple CSS or JS to a web page for example, and understanding the basics of coding also helps to develop critical thinking. Knowing a little of the basics certainly can't hurt.
exactly. America still excels with technology and software. why wouldn't we want to teach it to our young? use it or lose it.
I've been trying to learn Apple OS programming for too many years, but none of you smug bastards ever seemed to want to provide any comprehensive path to learning what y'all know. Sure, there's a lot of documentation out there, but that in itself has been a barrier for me: where to start? where to go if I had a problem? how to learn basic concepts and design paradigms?, etc.
Well, this to me seems like finally a comprehendible bridge into Apple OS programming which finally gives some immediate feedback through Swift's "playgrounds" without the relative complexity of XCode.
It also gives me a good reason to need and want an iPad. I'm excited!
I couldn't recommend this any higher:
Paul is an old colleague at NeXT and Apple. He's just reteaching old OOA/OOD From Openstep onto today, but with a greatly limited scope.
Apple has to lock down the development for now because someone could develop a program that would damage the system, maybe even jailbreak it and they wouldn't have a way to fix it. If they figure out a permissions model that lets them run code without the possibility of damaging anything, they'll be able to let the iPad do more. Apple's new filesystem might be a part of that as it can create expandable filesystem containers.
Good points, all!
I've heard rumors about a new filesystem -- didn't know it used containers. IBM is using Docker Containers for its implementations, including Swift.
Do you have any link about Apple's new filesystem?
This file system is just like Samsung's SSD solution. It's maturing inside Linux.
I think the normal starting point for teaching kids to program is Scratch. They often then move on to Python. If you are into Java, you may use Greenfoot (greenfoot.org). None of these are available on iPad as far as I know. There are lots of kids that have iPads, and if you can offer them a fun way to use their iPads to experience and learn a modern programming language, I'm all for it. From what I see on Apple's pages, you can start your code on the iPad, and then move it into Xcode and continue there if you want. This looks really promising.
It is fun. This is complex stuff that being trivialized only adds frustration to the kid [who Tim thinks every kid should become a programmer: an absolutely terrible fantasy] when they discover they cannot master it.
Sarcasm aside, you know as well that every university graduates started from playground right? A complex mathematic equation is always started from simple algebra. Besides not every kids will become programmer, but kudos to apps like this, it may attract more people to look for XCode.
I think that the plan is that Swift will [eventually] replace client-side programming languages such as JavaScript.
Good luck convincing W3C to standardize on Swift to replace CSSx, HTMLx, and Javascript, at least not any time soon. It has only taken them 20+ years to get all the browser apps sort of compliant. Swift might potentially become a new server side language such as dotNet, but it will have a long way to go before it will be client side, if ever, with the possible exception of Mac nerds running Xcode. I expect it will be at least another 20 years before it becomes a go-to language across the mainstream platforms. Likely, it will remain just like it is now, programmers will select whatever language they prefer. If anything, Swift will just join the others like Java, PHP, ASP.Net, Ruby, Python, etc. It is not likely to replace anything except maybe Obj-C, at least in my opinion, especially not universally across all web browsers.
youre speaking out of ignorance. swift could not replace CSS or HTML anymore than javascript could. it's impossible because the first two are layout & styling technologies, while swift/javascript are programming languages. theyre entirely different types of tools.
swift could, however, replace javascript if it became popular enough to be included in the browsers and people wanted to switch to it. theoretically possible. and it is open source, so Xcode would have nothing at all to do with that.
(snip) Yes, it may help people learn some very simple basics and see if they grok coding. But they'll have a long way to go before being a software developer.
That's the whole point -- it will get them started. What language did you start to learn coding with?
(Snip)
... Let''s see now, if the Indians (currently called Native Americans) were paid $24 for Manhattan island in 1626 -- how much would that be worth today at 5% interest compounded annually ...
Agreed on main point. It's a *Playground'
On second question - about $4.4 billion. Which might buy you a nice pair of skyscrapers in Manhattan today but not much else.
Yeah, but the Indians who sold Manhattan didn't own it -- they were from Long Island
$4,405,932,901.98
var principal = 24.00 for i in 1...2016-1626 { principal = 1.05 * principal }
Comments
Not every student is going to become a programmer. If they aren't introduced to the basic concepts and what they can accomplish at a young age then an opportunity is lost to find those with talent that can be focused on. If education of children is a liberal thing then I choose that over what the conservative thing is. Actually, I think we are currently witnessing the conservative thing in our nations schools. When private universities and colleges as well as Ivy League schools are resorting to remedial classes for incoming students there is a crisis in our K-12 system. The United States is falling behind the rest of the world at a record pace and Tim Cook is Partnering with IBM to help in this one way to provide our kids a chance for a decent chance in the world.
One more thing. What's wrong with learning a second language? I've traveled to many other countries and have found that almost everywhere I have been most people under the age of 50 speak English as well as their native language. Some speak multiple languages. It's time we all learned that it's a big world and to be successful sometimes a second language could mean the difference between writing a few apps targeting Americans or working for one of the most valuable corporations in the world creating the next thing in search, mobile, desktop, office applications, programming languages or creating a completely new market.
I've heard rumors about a new filesystem -- didn't know it used containers. IBM is using Docker Containers for its implementations, including Swift.
Do you have any link about Apple's new filesystem?
I couldn't recommend this any higher:
Updating my iPad Pro now ...
Edit: Playgrounds looks pretty good so far -- basic teaching, you are using complexity -- functions like moveForward() without needing to explain syntax or complexity. It is straight forward, provides hints, acknowledges failure, and reinforces success ... pretty good teaching/learning techniques for complex subjects.
Reminds me of the old saw where the teacher writes 2 + 2 = 4 on the board -- and one student goes crazy: oh yeah, all right ... what's a 4?
OK, in Lesson 1 we're writing functions (in an unusual way, to me -- but prolly not to the novice) ...
Found a bug, tho ...
This could be very, very good if they add a little [digestible] theory as they go ...
It does a pretty good job of T3:
So, far ... quite good -- but you can't skip ahead!
Cool!
I do understand the "yeah, sure" attitudes of people who've invested so much time and spleen in learning to code. But even candy-coated come-ons are useful in rearranging a child's neurons in learning a particular way of problem-solving. Get 'em while they're young and front-load the educational system. That's mainly what excites me about this, the prospect of seeing my grandniece learn software engineering starting with a set of "silly, useless" coloured blocks. Later on in life, her aptitude tests will reflect her experience working with logical constructs, and a barrier to college entry vanishes. If grizzled old programmers want to dismiss impure tinkertoy tools, as I said, I understand why; but girls in particular need more help getting into the STEM disciplines, and this resource will help. When Grizzled Programmer retires, my grandniece may well take his place, because she had prep.
For me me real, is coding in assembly and C/C++ or even microcode, or VHDL, so hey ;-).
Yeah, I deal with the higher level stuff too... But that's way too trippy (sic) , detached from real, for me.
I always find it weird those kind of assertions; my abstraction is better than that other level of abstraction....
Seems like several level of INCEPTION to me ;-). But, hey, I'm in the real world, I swear I am, by top is NOT spinning forever.
I could see me using this all the time as a sketchbook for swift code. No more ideas while too far from a compiler.
From what I see on Apple's pages, you can start your code on the iPad, and then move it into Xcode and continue there if you want. This looks really promising.
swift could, however, replace javascript if it became popular enough to be included in the browsers and people wanted to switch to it. theoretically possible. and it is open source, so Xcode would have nothing at all to do with that.
Yeah, but the Indians who sold Manhattan didn't own it -- they were from Long Island
$4,405,932,901.98