I don't often disagree with you DED, but I do this time. You say "really quite unthinkable and ill considered-leap" by the British people to leave the Eurozone. This is totally NOT TRUE !! The Brits have had it with the unelected Eurocrats of Brussels for many years. They have been thinking about this for over 30 years since being cleverly taken into the Common Market in the 70's. Now finally they have flicked the birdie at the unrepresentative socialist swill in Europe that has tried to control so much of their society for so many years. And as the 5th largest economy in the world they will have bugger-all trouble making their own way quite successfully, if not better than they have in the past 30 years.
The British bulldog is back in business!! Go Britain, go !!
And a warning to you dear in the USA. This is another reason why Trump will be elected in November in a landslide. People ares sick of being treated like fools by the PC arrogance of the political elite.
It's ill considered in the sense that the campaign was based on a series of lies, and planned out about as well as the Bush II Iraq War. Which is to say, there was no strategy beyond 'lets do this!" resulting in a clusterfuck of backwardly implemented strategy that wasn't even anticipated by those pushing for it.
You can suggest that leaving the EU has some ideological merits, but if you had any real knowledge of the issues involved you couldn't be so ignorantly confident that everything is great.
Essentially, a bunch of ignorant, ill informed old white people were asked to make a decision they didn't understand in the slightest, based on largely false propaganda, and the result is that the working class youth of the UK is now screwed over because many of their options are now erased. Also, those white rural people now have limited buying power and their property is plunging in value. Going forward, none of the things they were promised (free money, an end to immigration, and end to bureaucracy and rule by an elite class of morons) will materialize. They're all just screwed by their own simpleminded conservative credulity.
Which is pretty much what middle American Fox watchers hope to do to the United States, if they are given the opportunity.
Absolutely! Couldn't agree more with this summation.
Apple and the new, free and improved UK will be just fine.
You don't know that. The evidence so far suggests otherwise.
I am not a fortune teller and I do not possess any supernatural abilities that allows me to see into the future. That's obviously just my opinion.
Survival trumps the economy any day of the week, and I believe that the UK has taken the right step, regardless of what happens, because they will be independent.
Fully agree. Not only was being in the EU costing Britain 20 billion a year while getting back only 10 billion in return, but voters didn't want to have open borders determined by Belgium. What a radical and crazy idea indeed. And quite liberating too.
Open borders is suicide. I don't blame the Brits for not wanting to take part in Merkel's suicidal and psychotic plans.
Her plans has led Germany to be the best country in the world to live in. US is ranked 28, Greece 21
AppleInsider said: That will likely make an independent UK familiar territory for Apple, which has done business in Europe for many years prior to the establishment of the EU.
The EU was established in 1957 with the UK joining it in 1973.
No. The European Economic Community (EEC) was established in 1957. This became the European Communities (EC) in 1973 which is when the UK joined. The present day European Union was not established until the signing of the Maastricht Treaty in 1993. (Apple was already 17 years old by then.)
With such a narrow majority the Government shouldn't be jumping out of Europe as it is there to serve its citizens and to disregard the wishes of either side is reckless and ill advised. No referendum is legally binding it's basically asking the opinion of your people. In this case they are disregarding the will of 48% of the voters.
Thats without looking at at the stream of lies, false promises and misinformation from both sides throughout the campaign.
Glad the UK had the courage to vote themselves out of the bureaucratic mess that is the EU. Bunch of unelected, unaccountable suits in Brussels trying to introduce one set of rules for us all. The amount of times we hear in my country 'our hands are tied' from our elected officials is not funny. Practically every other week. Each country needs to take back their sovereignty.
And this has nothing to do with that Trump clown who cannot even successfully operate a Twitter account. 'No games.' Go home, narcissist.
Glad the UK had the courage to vote themselves out of the bureaucratic mess that is the EU. Bunch of unelected, unaccountable suits in Brussels trying to introduce one set of rules for us all. The amount of times we hear in my country 'our hands are tied' from our elected officials is not funny. Practically every other week. Each country needs to take back their sovereignty.
And this has nothing to do with that Trump clown who cannot even successfully operate a Twitter account. 'No games.' Go home, narcissist.
It is because of uninformed rubbish like this that it is good that the UK will leave the EU once and for all. They should have never joined. I find it always very rich to hear when one of the house of parliament in the UK is not elected by the people in the first place. It is called the house of lords. Never mind all the other misinformation put out by the brexit camp. Maybe we should brick up the tunnel on the french side as well so you can keep all your sovereignty and your empire for yourself.
I don't often disagree with you DED, but I do this time. You say "really quite unthinkable and ill considered-leap" by the British people to leave the Eurozone. This is totally NOT TRUE !! The Brits have had it with the unelected Eurocrats of Brussels for many years. They have been thinking about this for over 30 years since being cleverly taken into the Common Market in the 70's. Now finally they have flicked the birdie at the unrepresentative socialist swill in Europe that has tried to control so much of their society for so many years. And as the 5th largest economy in the world they will have bugger-all trouble making their own way quite successfully, if not better than they have in the past 30 years.
The British bulldog is back in business!! Go Britain, go !!
And a warning to you dear in the USA. This is another reason why Trump will be elected in November in a landslide. People ares sick of being treated like fools by the PC arrogance of the political elite.
Unelected Eurocrats? What about the House of Lords, are they elected by the people? The UK made a big mistake and it will have great implication for years. Instead of being part of a united Europe many people in the UK still dream of an Empire that does`t exist anymore.
Just to set things straight because you seem very uninformed:
The House of Lords has NOTHING to do with the EU!!! The ruling EU MEPs are NOT elected and rule over all the EU countries from Brussels. Withing the UK the Members of Parliament (MPs) ARE elected but the HOUSE of Lords members are NOT!
Unelected Eurocrats? What about the House of Lords, are they elected by the people? The UK made a big mistake and it will have great implication for years. Instead of being part of a united Europe many people in the UK still dream of an Empire that does`t exist anymore.
Just to set things straight because you seem very uninformed:
The House of Lords has NOTHING to do with the EU!!! The ruling EU MEPs are NOT elected and rule over all the EU countries from Brussels. Withing the UK the Members of Parliament (MPs) ARE elected but the HOUSE of Lords members are NOT!
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meps/en/map.html Maybe this will help? Of course the house of lords has nothing to do with the EU. Just an example to make the point that not everything is elected by the people in the UK.
Fully agree. Not only was being in the EU costing Britain 20 billion a year while getting back only 10 billion in return, but voters didn't want to have open borders determined by Belgium. What a radical and crazy idea indeed. And quite liberating too.
Open borders is suicide. I don't blame the Brits for not wanting to take part in Merkel's suicidal and psychotic plans.
Her plans has led Germany to be the best country in the world to live in. US is ranked 28, Greece 21
Maybe it's because Germany is highly industrialized.
That's been the case for a very long time; long enough to be a factor in the attractiveness of the country.
However, policies to allow in refugees from worn-torn Islamic states have only recently ramped up the numbers
of radicalized Muslims in the EU, and so this factor has not had time to tear down the best-country rankings.
Give it time.
Glad the UK had the courage to vote themselves out of the bureaucratic mess that is the EU. Bunch of unelected, unaccountable suits in Brussels trying to introduce one set of rules for us all. The amount of times we hear in my country 'our hands are tied' from our elected officials is not funny. Practically every other week. Each country needs to take back their sovereignty.
And this has nothing to do with that Trump clown who cannot even successfully operate a Twitter account. 'No games.' Go home, narcissist.
It is because of uninformed rubbish like this that it is good that the UK will leave the EU once and for all. They should have never joined. I find it always very rich to hear when one of the house of parliament in the UK is not elected by the people in the first place. It is called the house of lords. Never mind all the other misinformation put out by the brexit camp. Maybe we should brick up the tunnel on the french side as well so you can keep all your sovereignty and your empire for yourself.
Where do you live?
You talk of 'uninformed rubbish' while not even knowing that the poster you are responding to doesn't live in the UK, even with a massive hint like his username. Pure genius, Holmes.
I also live in Ireland and can tell you he was pretty much spot-on. Water charges, a ban on turf cutting, the forced sovereign assumption of private debt, completely disemboweling an entire country from a social and economic perspective, in order to line the pockets of German bankers who didn't do any due-dilligence... The list is long indeed.
Edit: Oh yes, and after the Forced bailout, those same German bankers, our beneficent EU cousins, then repaid Ireland's accommodating subservience by charging utterly usurious interest rates for the bailout, which initially was 6% when the official ECB rate was 1%. Then, when Ireland sought to restructure the loans because they were able to borrow in the market at much cheaper rates, the *uckers continued their incessant policy of screwing Ireland by refusing to allow them to restructure the loans.
Ireland urged eurozone partners Monday to give Dublin more time and
leeway under its banking bailout, a demand resisted by German Chancellor
Angela Merkel and French President Nicolas Sarkozy.
This same bunch of Euro elitist scumbags offered far more generous rates and terms to both Spain and Greece. They also tried to use the unconscionable situation they had created to blackmail Ireland into raising it's corporate tax rate:
Eurozone leaders refused Friday to reduce the interest Ireland must pay
on its bailout packaged unless Dublin budges on its business taxation
level, one of the bloc's lowest at 12.5 percent.
The Brexit move completes the slow process of Britain becoming a third-world state. The first step was when they unfortunately lost WWII economically, a blow they never really recovered from. Second was when they elected Margaret Thatcher, who instilled a sense of insecurity and deprivation at every level. Now with Brexit, they are isolated even more. They will enjoy their proud independence for a while, until the reality sinks in.
Glad the UK had the courage to vote themselves out of the bureaucratic mess that is the EU. Bunch of unelected, unaccountable suits in Brussels trying to introduce one set of rules for us all. The amount of times we hear in my country 'our hands are tied' from our elected officials is not funny. Practically every other week. Each country needs to take back their sovereignty.
And this has nothing to do with that Trump clown who cannot even successfully operate a Twitter account. 'No games.' Go home, narcissist.
---------------------
I agree strongly on one measure; each member country should have the right to control immigration. At least in two respects.
First, each member country should be allowed to restrict immigration of those who originated from a country outside the EU. So if the EU wants to allow in, as a resident, or ultimately as a citizen, individuals from, say, a war-torn nation that is known for sending radicalized religious fanatics into Europe for the express purpose of terrorizing and bringing down western society, then reason would dictate that each member country should have the right to refuse entry of such populations, as a means of safeguarding the very lives of their own citizenry.
Second, each member country should be allowed to set limits on the number of EU residents residing and working in their country on a permanent basis. This speaks to the viability of a country's economy. It's natural for the citizens of the poorest countries to be attracted to work prospects of the countries with the better economies, but this can lead to over-immigration on the wealthier countries, drawing down their services budgets and lowering their average wages. That brings down the strong by burdening them with the weak, which isn't the way capitalism works, at least not works well. But it is the way socialism functions (notice I didn't use the word 'works.')
I think that the immigration issue, alone, more than swayed the vote. While other issues, on their own, might have swayed it (given it was only a 2% difference), the immigration issue is significant as I believe the populace could have lived with the other issues, had they been actually informed rationally regarding the balance on each other issue. But no nation wants to be forced to take in more new residents/workers than their economy can absorb, just because other economies in the region are far worse off. That only brings down the standard of living to a lower average. And no nation should be forced to allow an external entity to vet those who will be allowed to take up residence among its people.
And right here, folks, we have a perfect example of the complete BS that has sullied the whole brexit campaign.
The OECD better life index ranks a lot of countries ahead of Germany, starting with Norway, Australia, Switzerland, Sweden, Denmark, Canada, New Zealand, Finland, Iceland and even the US.
I don't often disagree with you DED, but I do this time. You say "really quite unthinkable and ill considered-leap" by the British people to leave the Eurozone. This is totally NOT TRUE !! The Brits have had it with the unelected Eurocrats of Brussels for many years. They have been thinking about this for over 30 years since being cleverly taken into the Common Market in the 70's. Now finally they have flicked the birdie at the unrepresentative socialist swill in Europe that has tried to control so much of their society for so many years. And as the 5th largest economy in the world they will have bugger-all trouble making their own way quite successfully, if not better than they have in the past 30 years.
The British bulldog is back in business!! Go Britain, go !!
And a warning to you dear in the USA. This is another reason why Trump will be elected in November in a landslide. People ares sick of being treated like fools by the PC arrogance of the political elite.
Speak for yourself! Please don't label all Brits as being in your camp because we're not. I disagree with you that this move is not "I'll-considered". I don't think anyone, let alone any pro-Brexit voters really know what the hell is about to hit us after this decision. After listening to many opinions of people who voted to leave - they are ill-informed. There has been a dirty campaign (on both sides I might add) which has been deliberately liberal with the truth, spreading misinformation about immigration figures and EU membership costs vs saving once we leave. Many voters have also been swayed by the xenophobic immigrant-hating gutter press and the weak pro-remain campaign hasn't helped. Remember, the decision has effectively been made by just 2% of the electorate - that's how close it was. That means almost half of the U.K. wish to remain.
The Pro-Brexit camp are playing fast and lose with our economy. So far it's looking pretty bad and I fear for the future - especially for young people who were far more pro-remain than the older population.
And if Trump gets in then the world really has gone mad!
Honestly? There will be some short term pain but things will stabilize pretty quickly. It's in both parties (meaning the UK and the EU) interests to keep things relatively calm.
A lot of people took a very cold bath betting the house that the poms would vote to remain. This is generating all the bad headlines. The market will sort itself out. Other people will make a lot of money in the coming week.
And the poms are better off getting out of the EU at a time their choosing, better than when the whole thing implodes, which it will. One currency for a bunch of highly diverse economies? With myriad regulations designed by commissioners and rubber stamped by an EU parliament, designed as one size fits all. Yeah, that will end well.
If the Poms have any brains at all they will aggressively start negotiating Fee Trade Agreements with all comers and leave the continentals to fester in their diminishing pond.
But I suspect that what will happen is the political elite will keep engineering reruns until they beat these damn pesky voters into submission and the correct answer is reached.
Glad the UK had the courage to vote themselves out of the bureaucratic mess that is the EU. Bunch of unelected, unaccountable suits in Brussels trying to introduce one set of rules for us all. The amount of times we hear in my country 'our hands are tied' from our elected officials is not funny. Practically every other week. Each country needs to take back their sovereignty.
It is remarkable to see that some people think that the UK should leave the EU because of a lack of democracy. All EU decision makers are assigned via a democratic process: the EU members of parliament are elected directly in the European elections, the European council is made of democratically elected member state governments and the European Commission and the European President are nominated by European council and approved by the European parliament. The members of the House of Lords in the UK are not elected at all.
It is non curable disease of the national politicians to blame their failure on the EU iso. on their own incompetence. I wonder what the British politicians will do, now this excuse won't work any more.
Lovely how none of those cheering this catastrophe for London and the UK lay any of the blame on the austerity policies carried out by the Conservative government since 2010 in response to the financial crisis. Instead they blame all their problems on the EU and the refugee crisis. The UK had a choice, and it chose austerity and endless recession.
Here's what will happen if the UK does not find a way to blunt this: Scotland will leave the UK and join the EU. It's less certain, but it's also possible that Northern Ireland will leave and become part of Ireland, and thus also join the EU. All that will be left is England and Wales. I guess it would just be called England, as historically that is accurate.
France and the Netherlands are the big threats to the EU, not the UK, which is basically just threat to itself. Both will probably hold referendums and honestly it will be a good thing to do. It forces people to make a choice, and forces lies out into the open where they can be confronted. It's not easy, but we must find a way. We do live in the information age and democracies have to adapt. The most problematic aspect of our technological revolution is the rise of misinformation, especially people's ability to live in ideological echo-chambers without being challenged.
In the case of Trump, it's easier to defuse, because it's more about exposing him as the singular fraud that he is, but he will not be the last -- some famous person without his baggage will use the same formula and be much harder to stop. Democracy in the US is broken -- specifically the relationship between the Congress and the Presidency -- and has to be fixed. I don't know how we get there, but we will. Trump, thankfully, likely buys us another eight years of progress toward reform, so that's how much time Europe has to get its shit together before the US (and US Treasuries, where all the money was running to yesterday) implodes. Because Constitutional reform isn't going to come in the US without some kind of further turmoil.
No human rights. No labor rights. No economic development. No prosperity. No welfare. No peace. Nothing but "integration".
EU has sacrificed all of these modern ideals for the sake of a stupid "integration" idea. They've tried to build the most powerful meta-state and the most controlled market this planet has ever seen. That has nothing to do with socialism and should be rather defined as "Eurofascism".
Comments
Absolutely! Couldn't agree more with this summation.
You don't know that. The evidence so far suggests otherwise.
Survival trumps the economy any day of the week, and I believe that the UK has taken the right step, regardless of what happens, because they will be independent.
http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/the-41-nationalities-with-the-best-quality-of-life-a7071406.html
Thats without looking at at the stream of lies, false promises and misinformation from both sides throughout the campaign.
And this has nothing to do with that Trump clown who cannot even successfully operate a Twitter account. 'No games.' Go home, narcissist.
Maybe we should brick up the tunnel on the french side as well so you can keep all your sovereignty and your empire for yourself.
Of course the house of lords has nothing to do with the EU. Just an example to make the point that not everything is elected by the people in the UK.
http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/the-41-nationalities-with-the-best-quality-of-life-a7071406.html
You talk of 'uninformed rubbish' while not even knowing that the poster you are responding to doesn't live in the UK, even with a massive hint like his username. Pure genius, Holmes.
I also live in Ireland and can tell you he was pretty much spot-on. Water charges, a ban on turf cutting, the forced sovereign assumption of private debt, completely disemboweling an entire country from a social and economic perspective, in order to line the pockets of German bankers who didn't do any due-dilligence... The list is long indeed.
Edit: Oh yes, and after the Forced bailout, those same German bankers, our beneficent EU cousins, then repaid Ireland's accommodating subservience by charging utterly usurious interest rates for the bailout, which initially was 6% when the official ECB rate was 1%. Then, when Ireland sought to restructure the loans because they were able to borrow in the market at much cheaper rates, the *uckers continued their incessant policy of screwing Ireland by refusing to allow them to restructure the loans.
This same bunch of Euro elitist scumbags offered far more generous rates and terms to both Spain and Greece. They also tried to use the unconscionable situation they had created to blackmail Ireland into raising it's corporate tax rate:
And this has nothing to do with that Trump clown who cannot even successfully operate a Twitter account. 'No games.' Go home, narcissist.
---------------------
I agree strongly on one measure; each member country should have the right to control immigration. At least in two respects.
First, each member country should be allowed to restrict immigration of those who originated from a country outside the EU. So if the EU wants to allow in, as a resident, or ultimately as a citizen, individuals from, say, a war-torn nation that is known for sending radicalized religious fanatics into Europe for the express purpose of terrorizing and bringing down western society, then reason would dictate that each member country should have the right to refuse entry of such populations, as a means of safeguarding the very lives of their own citizenry.
Second, each member country should be allowed to set limits on the number of EU residents residing and working in their country on a permanent basis. This speaks to the viability of a country's economy. It's natural for the citizens of the poorest countries to be attracted to work prospects of the countries with the better economies, but this can lead to over-immigration on the wealthier countries, drawing down their services budgets and lowering their average wages. That brings down the strong by burdening them with the weak, which isn't the way capitalism works, at least not works well. But it is the way socialism functions (notice I didn't use the word 'works.')
I think that the immigration issue, alone, more than swayed the vote. While other issues, on their own, might have swayed it (given it was only a 2% difference), the immigration issue is significant as I believe the populace could have lived with the other issues, had they been actually informed rationally regarding the balance on each other issue. But no nation wants to be forced to take in more new residents/workers than their economy can absorb, just because other economies in the region are far worse off. That only brings down the standard of living to a lower average. And no nation should be forced to allow an external entity to vet those who will be allowed to take up residence among its people.
The OECD better life index ranks a lot of countries ahead of Germany, starting with Norway, Australia, Switzerland, Sweden, Denmark, Canada, New Zealand, Finland, Iceland and even the US.
http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/#/11111111111
The market will sort itself out. Other people will make a lot of money in the coming week.
And the poms are better off getting out of the EU at a time their choosing, better than when the whole thing implodes, which it will. One currency for a bunch of highly diverse economies? With myriad regulations designed by commissioners and rubber stamped by an EU parliament, designed as one size fits all. Yeah, that will end well.
If the Poms have any brains at all they will aggressively start negotiating Fee Trade Agreements with all comers and leave the continentals to fester in their diminishing pond.
But I suspect that what will happen is the political elite will keep engineering reruns until they beat these damn pesky voters into submission and the correct answer is reached.
It is non curable disease of the national politicians to blame their failure on the EU iso. on their own incompetence. I wonder what the British politicians will do, now this excuse won't work any more.
Here's what will happen if the UK does not find a way to blunt this: Scotland will leave the UK and join the EU. It's less certain, but it's also possible that Northern Ireland will leave and become part of Ireland, and thus also join the EU. All that will be left is England and Wales. I guess it would just be called England, as historically that is accurate.
France and the Netherlands are the big threats to the EU, not the UK, which is basically just threat to itself. Both will probably hold referendums and honestly it will be a good thing to do. It forces people to make a choice, and forces lies out into the open where they can be confronted. It's not easy, but we must find a way. We do live in the information age and democracies have to adapt. The most problematic aspect of our technological revolution is the rise of misinformation, especially people's ability to live in ideological echo-chambers without being challenged.
In the case of Trump, it's easier to defuse, because it's more about exposing him as the singular fraud that he is, but he will not be the last -- some famous person without his baggage will use the same formula and be much harder to stop. Democracy in the US is broken -- specifically the relationship between the Congress and the Presidency -- and has to be fixed. I don't know how we get there, but we will. Trump, thankfully, likely buys us another eight years of progress toward reform, so that's how much time Europe has to get its shit together before the US (and US Treasuries, where all the money was running to yesterday) implodes. Because Constitutional reform isn't going to come in the US without some kind of further turmoil.
EU has sacrificed all of these modern ideals for the sake of a stupid "integration" idea. They've tried to build the most powerful meta-state and the most controlled market this planet has ever seen. That has nothing to do with socialism and should be rather defined as "Eurofascism".
And they failed miserably...