Apple, 67 other businesses file against North Carolina's HB2 'bathroom' law

13567

Comments

  • Reply 41 of 127
    kent909kent909 Posts: 731member
    apple ][ said:
    You know, I've actually come around on a lot of issues, and I do support gay marriage and other lgbt rights, but I don't know about this whole bathroom business.

    I mean, what's to stop some pervert from just declaring that they're transgender all of a sudden, and then the pervert can just go on a city-wide tour of women's restrooms, and changing rooms and other places that are only for females?

    What do females have to say about this? They're the ones that will have to be subjected to the intruder in their bathroom.

    Would a parent want their underaged daughter to be using the same restrooms that a big hairy male uses?

    I'm just saying.
    What has there ever been to stop someone? Why would you think perverts look for cover?  There are much better ways, like becoming a priest if you want to victimize children. Or go to college where you can rape with near immunity. Be like Bill Cosby and make people laugh and see how long you can get away with drugging and raping women. So since you say you have come around on other issues, maybe you just need to be patient and you may eventually come around on this one. Fear tends to fade after time.
    baconstang
  • Reply 42 of 127
    kent909kent909 Posts: 731member

    hittrj01 said:
    paxman said:
    What?? Please take a second to think about the logistics of what you just wrote. If someone has female genitalia, they are a female, and vice versa for male. This whole issue is a mental illness issue. And before you label me a bigot and hateful and whatever else, look up Gender Identity Disorder and Gender Dysphoria. They are medically recognized mental disorders that they are trying to find a cure for.

    I am all for people getting help, but getting the right kind of help is the only real solution. Chopping something off or putting something there that isn't doesn't make the real problem go away.
    What kind of help are you getting for your mental illness?
    baconstanglordjohnwhorfin
  • Reply 43 of 127
    jet23jet23 Posts: 12member

    (1) Johns Hopkins Psychiatrist: Transgender is ‘Mental Disorder;’ Sex Change ‘Biologically Impossible’

    http://cnsnews.com/news/article/michael-w-chapman/johns-hopkins-psychiatrist-transgender-mental-disorder-sex-change

    (2) Transgenderism Is A Mental Illness, Not A Civil Rights Issue

    http://townhall.com/columnists/johnhawkins/2014/09/30/transgenderism-is-a-mental-illness-not-a-civil-rights-issue-n1898464/page/full

    (3) http://www.eje-online.org/content/164/4/635.full.pdf

    (4) Jerry Springer-I'm Happy I Cut Off My Legs!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvY2ScZBCtQ

    (5) Adult Gender Identity Disorder (GID) Can Remit

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/Dii/S0010440X00305168

    (6) Transsexualism, Dissociation,and Child Abuse

    http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J056v06n03_04

    (7) The frequency of personality disorders in patients with gender identity disorder

    http://mjiri.iums.ac.ir/browse.php?a_code=A-10-1-722&slc_lang=fa&sid=1

    (8) Personality Disorders in Persons with Gender Identity Disorder

    http://www.hindawi.com/journals/tswj/2014/809058/abs/

    (9) Increased Gender Variance in Autism Spectrum Disorders and Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder

    http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-014-0285-3

    (10) Gender Identity Disorder and Schizophrenia: Neurodevelopmental Disorders with Common Causal Mechanisms?

    http://www.hindawi.com/journals/schizort/2014/463757/abs/

    (11) A Follow-up Study of Boys with Gender Identity Disorder

    https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/handle/1807/34926

    (12) Psychiatric Comorbidity of Gender Identity Disorders: A Survey Among Dutch Psychiatrists

    http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.160.7.1332

    (13) Psychiatric Axis I Comorbidities among Patients with Gender Dysphoria

    http://www.hindawi.com/journals/psychiatry/2014/971814/abs/

    TL;DR: 1. Coming to this part proves you don’t give a fuck. 2. Yes.

    Tallest skil, I would have expected you to think twice before posting these garbage links again, but here we are. Let's take a look, shall we?

    (1 and 2): These are both conservative media, which (before you pound out GENETIC FALLACY) doesn't mean they aren't worth considering. It does, however, lend to an argument that you are presenting a biased consideration of evidence.

    (3): This is a clinical study that actually concludes with the opposite of your point: "Psychological evaluation has shown that sex reassignment increases the well-being of transsexuals, but it should not be considered as a cure-all; it is rehabilitative relieving gender dysphoria, but some transsexual subjects may still experience other problems (e.g. comorbid psychiatric problems, social isolation, troubled relationships, prejudice, and discrimination)."

    (4): An absurd video to be sure, but I shouldn't need to tell you this is anecdotal.

    (5): Broken link, this was also broken last time. Thought you would have removed it.

    (6): This is an unusual study to say the least. A sample size of only 45 patients, done outside of a clinical setting. Where is your academic rigor?

    (7): A medical journal published by the Islamic Republic of Iran—not saying  it isn’t worth considering, but it is important to consider the source. The actual conclusion of the study is similar to 8, 9, and 11--see below.

    (8, 9, and 11): The conclusions of these studies broadly support the argument that patients with gender dysphoria have other mental health conditions at a higher rate than the population at large. Unfortunately, this isn't the argument you are making, and correlation does not imply causation, so using this to claim that gender dysphoria results from a separate mental illness is shaky at best. So if you wanted to make the argument that people with gender dysphoria should be in therapy and evaluating a range of treatments based on their overall mental health, I would agree with you.

    (10): This study concludes that signs of transgender identity can often be seen in childhood, and there are statistically more transgender people with a bisexual or homosexual orientation. Unless you’re arguing homosexuality is also a mental illness--I assume you are, but let's stay on topic--this doesn’t really relate to your point.

    (11): Conclusion: “These data suggest that there is little consensus, at least among Dutch psychiatrists, about diagnostic features of gender identity disorder or about the minimum age at which sex reassignment therapy is a safe option. Therapy options proposed to patients with gender identity disorder appear to depend on personal preferences of psychiatrists. These results underline the need for more specific diagnostic rules in this area.” Sure, more research is a great idea and can only lead to better treatment.

    In case anyone is wondering how someone like Tallest Skil could find the time to put together all these resources, apparently without reading them, this is the page where they were copy/pasted from. The name of the thread is "Need Anti-Tranny Material," with the original post: "I need anti-tranny material for an upcoming argument. Sources needed. Please try to link more scientific studies with peer reviews and shit but a little more shady shit and maybe some particular stories of them being disgusting welcome."

    I'm not sure if Tallest Skil reposting these sources repeatedly counts as SPAM at this point, and I assume there probably aren't any rules against behavior like this, but it's certainly something that readers of these forums should be aware of.
    singularitybaconstangstourquewhy-crowleylordjohnwhorfinboopthesnootNemWanVisualSeed
  • Reply 44 of 127
    jet23jet23 Posts: 12member
    Screwed up my own numbering. Last three sections should say:

    (8, 9, 10, and 13)
    (11)
    (12)
    lordjohnwhorfin
  • Reply 45 of 127
    leighrleighr Posts: 238member
    Perhaps just a third door that says "Not Sure". 
    joseph_went_south
  • Reply 46 of 127
    why-why- Posts: 305member
    not sure why this article has the gay flag as the thumbnail. try this instead:


    crowley
  • Reply 47 of 127
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,388member
    jet23 said:
    It does, however, lend to an argument that you are presenting a biased consideration of evidence.
    So... a genetic fallacy, then. Thanks for admitting you don’t have an argument. Either refute what they say or don’t reply.
    (3): This is a clinical study that actually concludes with the opposite of your point
    Kind of hard to do when post-mutilation suicides are higher than pre.
    (4): An absurd video to be sure, but I shouldn't need to tell you this is anecdotal.
    So no argument.
    (5): Broken link, this was also broken last time. Thought you would have removed it.
    Ah, it was OCR’d. Here’s the fixed link.
    (6): This is an unusual study to say the least. A sample size of only 45 patients, done outside of a clinical setting. Where is your academic rigor?
    Where’s your fucking argument? You can’t even refute basic logic, much less the scientific proofs. If I identify as 14,600,000 square miles of saltwater, can I be transatlantic?
    (7): A medical journal published by the Islamic Republic of Iran—not saying  it isn’t worth considering, but it is important to consider the source.
    So... genetic fallacy.
    (8, 9, and 11): The conclusions of these studies broadly support the argument that patients with gender dysphoria have other mental health conditions at a higher rate than the population at large.
    How about that.
     Unfortunately, this isn't the argument you are making
    It is, seeing as the statement being made is that thinking you’re the wrong sex is a sign of mental illness.
    ...people with gender dysphoria should be in therapy and evaluating a range of treatments based on their overall mental health, I would agree with you.
    Explain how mutilation of healthy tissue is ever a valid treatment. Pick a quack “doctor’s” name from anywhere in the past you like–that comes to mind.
    (10): This study concludes that signs of transgender identity can often be seen in childhood, and there are statistically more transgender people with a bisexual or homosexual orientation.
    Yes, that sounds pretty much in line with how those things work.
    Unless you’re arguing homosexuality is also a mental illness–I assume you are, but let’s stay on topic–this doesn’t really relate to your point.
    It relates directly to it as 1. obviously and 2. child abuse in the presence of homosexuality is not only more than par for the course, it also results in adult trauma and dissociative disorders.
    Sure, more research is a great idea and can only lead to better treatment.
    Again, explain how mutilation of healthy tissue is ever a valid treatment.
    In case anyone is wondering how someone like Tallest Skil could find the time to put together all these resources, apparently without reading them, this is the page where they were copy/pasted from.
    No, it’s not, but I imagine that it’d be reposted in that way.
    I’m not sure if Tallest Skil reposting these sources repeatedly counts as SPAM at this point...
    Something you can’t refute or don’t like isn’t spam. Get over yourself and have an actual rebuttal. If gender is a social construct, then there is no such thing as a “gender binary”. If this is true, how can one “transition” between “genders” or be “genderfluid?” If gender is a social construct and stereotypical gender binary “gender identities” and the gender roles stereotypically assigned thereto are entirely made up by an oppressive society for its own uses, why would “transgenders” want to take on, themselves, made up roles assigned to the nonexistent “gender” to which they are transitioning, and thus reenforce the system’s fake stereotypes of gender roles in the gender binary? By this “logic”, a man can act like a man but claim that he is a woman and feel no need in “transitioning”, and everyone must accept it.

    It’s fucking nonsense and you will be remembered as a useful idiot.
    joseph_went_south
  • Reply 48 of 127
    foggyhillfoggyhill Posts: 4,767member
    foggyhill said:
    Huh, So you want Trans MEn, most don't get operated because of costs and the fact the result is terrible (despite cost) to go in the women's restroom?
    Nobody seems to think they exist, but they're almost as plentiful as trans women, though they are a bit more inconspicuous.
    You do know how they look after 2 years on testosterone don't you?
    Do you think a woman would be more worried about a stubly muscle bound Trans Men or a low muscle mass tall trans women?

    Considering a lot of gay/queer women are pretty male in appearance (even without testosterone), will they have to show ID at the door of the restroom or drop their pants to not offend (sic).

    Also, why not be worried about gay/bi male/female being in restroom with the gender they're attracted too? (isn't that what's the "problem" (sic)).
    Is it because asking for sexual preference is too hard to the conservative twits have moved on to a more convenient and more defenseless target.

    So, your "solution" is not so great.

    It's also trying to problem that doesn't exist. There are already laws against doing anything bad (whatever it is) in restrooms and you don't need an extra law to further define it (especially since it is barely enforceable anyway).
    Amazing how people can't read.  First, I was very clear.  My DEFAULT position, meaning a first draft, of sorts.  Then, I clearly asked the question, starting from that stance, what problems exist?  Rather than stating problems, you start right off telling me what you assume I want.  What I want, is to know where the simple draft solution, the strawman I threw out, breaks down.  Where there are cases where it doesn't serve the populous.  This is how we collaborate to reach consensus.

    We're trying to solve a problem of fitting a whole spectrum of gender, with some individuals among the population in transition within that spectrum, and fitting every individual into one of two buckets, each of which represents just one point along the spectrum.  Not an easy issue to resolve.  So my starting position needs a little modification (all others should not just be dumped into the other restroom) and a little clarification.  I'm starting from an assumption that, in aggregate, the population representing the male portion of the spectrum is less likely to be in danger or even offended should someone enter their restroom who is far away from them on the spectrum.  So I'm basically defining my first rule, if you have stand-up equipment, use the restroom already in existence designed for use by those with that equipment, to cover a portion of the population that is easy to accomodate.  And I'm dropping my second, all-encompassing, rule (all others use the other restroom).  So we need a replacement second, third, fourth(?) rule to distribute the rest of the populace.  Or we can just let anyone do whatever they feel they want to do, but then why have separate gender-accommodating restrooms in the first place?  
    Yes, indeed why. Having an open public area with no doors (like many places are right now, maybe even put cameras in that place), for washing hands, whatever, with stalls for everyone (maybe self-cleaning) would solve every issue in large areas. Everywhere else, have single stalls bathrooms (which is already the case in many new buildings, this also accommodates people with disabilities better).

    Protecting "da women" "da children" (sic) is often used as a justification for all kind of boneheaded or bigoted laws, including segregation laws.



    why-crowleybaconstang
  • Reply 49 of 127
    foggyhillfoggyhill Posts: 4,767member


    I have been falling out of love with Apple lately since they have become more politically active.   Why can't they just shut up and make me an iPhone with good battery life?  
    Jobs was always politically active they were just smaller so it had less impact. BTW, most of fracking silicon valley is on this train, are you giving up all tech now?

    So, maybe you can just shut the hell up yourself and go back to trying to start a fire in your cave.

    BTW, the Iphone 6s+ has one of the best battery life around, the 6s has the best battery life for its size and performance, now go away.
    edited July 2016 why-crowleylordjohnwhorfinbaconstangstourque
  • Reply 50 of 127
    foggyhillfoggyhill Posts: 4,767member
    Yet more stupid LBGT comments from Apple and Cook.    The NC law is absolutely correct and was put in place to protect women and children, not to punish LBGT.
    Right... Another who doesn't have a fucking clue. Go spew your crap somewhere else and since 99% of silicon valley is on board, go back to your cave with two sticks cause that's all the tech that will be left for you now.
    why-singularitycrowleylordjohnwhorfinbaconstang
  • Reply 51 of 127
    why-why- Posts: 305member
    tallest skil said:

    If gender is a social construct, then there is no such thing as a “gender binary”. If this is true, how can one “transition” between “genders” or be “genderfluid?” If gender is a social construct and stereotypical gender binary “gender identities” and the gender roles stereotypically assigned thereto are entirely made up by an oppressive society for its own uses, why would “transgenders” want to take on, themselves, made up roles assigned to the nonexistent “gender” to which they are transitioning, and thus reenforce the system’s fake stereotypes of gender roles in the gender binary? By this “logic”, a man can act like a man but claim that he is a woman and feel no need in “transitioning”, and everyone must accept it.

    It’s fucking nonsense and you will be remembered as a useful idiot.
    gender is a construct. the idea of gender is created by people. therefore, if a person is not comfortable with the gender they have they can create a new one. or if someone doesn't like the idea of gender they can get rid of it (such a person would identify as agender). I was not comfortable with the gender people told me I was, so I decided to be a boy instead. it's really that simple

    I hope that helped!
    crowleylordjohnwhorfinbaconstang
  • Reply 52 of 127
    why-why- Posts: 305member
    @foggyhill you're my hero
    edited July 2016 crowleybaconstang
  • Reply 53 of 127
    why-why- Posts: 305member
    jet23 said:

    In case anyone is wondering how someone like Tallest Skil could find the time to put together all these resources, apparently without reading them, this is the page where they were copy/pasted from. The name of the thread is "Need Anti-Tranny Material," with the original post: "I need anti-tranny material for an upcoming argument. Sources needed. Please try to link more scientific studies with peer reviews and shit but a little more shady shit and maybe some particular stories of them being disgusting welcome."
    good lord that's next level awful. how on earth did you find that?

    crowleylordjohnwhorfinbaconstang
  • Reply 54 of 127
    why-why- Posts: 305member
    You get it wrong in the first sentence. How about that.
    yeeah, nope. nice try though
    tallest skil said:

    Gender is sex. The words mean the same thing. Male and female. That’s all there are. You don’t have to be sapient for sex to exist. Or maybe you think that animals decide right before the act which one will be doing the inseminating.
    no they really don't
    tallest skil said:

    Yes, it’s that simple
    oh wow you wrote inside my quote box!! you know for a second there you had me fooled! I thought I actually said those ridiculous things!!! but it was just you putting your words in my mouth! silly me :D
    tallest skil said:

    What the hell is that site, anyway? Remember those catch-all sites that would break SEO by having as many keywords on every page as possible? But they never had any actual content and they just existed to serve up ads. This reminds me of one of those.
    whaaat?!?? that site where I got 50% of my links?? never heard of it!!!




    crowleylordjohnwhorfin
  • Reply 55 of 127
    why-why- Posts: 305member
    Great argument. Read a fucking dictionary.
    do you actually live your life based on what's written in a book. how dull
    tallest skil said:

    Yeah, you’re not a blithering idiot.
    No, I really am. I have an extrememly low IQ. It's like 69 or something
    tallest skil said:

    Stop acting retarded and have a fucking argument.
    says the person who does nothing but post links to articles and pseudo-articles written by pretend journalists quoting faux-scientists conducting weighted experiments. how about come up with your own arguments
    tallest skil said:

    You can be wrong, you know.
    so can you, but I don't see you throwing down your guns any time soon. funny how that works
    tallest skil said:

    Get fucked.
    God this is so much fun
    tallest skil said:

    Post science and I get genetic fallacies. Try to play your game by your rules and I get “hurr it’s just an anecdote hurr.” Even a homosexual–mentally ill himself–recognizes the mental illness of trannies.
    surprise!! gay people can be transphobic!!

    singularitycrowleylordjohnwhorfinbaconstangboopthesnoot
  • Reply 56 of 127
    singularitysingularity Posts: 1,328member
    why- said:
    Great argument. Read a fucking dictionary.
    do you actually live your life based on what's written in a book. how dull
    No, I really am. I have an extrememly low IQ. It's like 69 or something
    says the person who does nothing but post links to articles and pseudo-articles written by pretend journalists quoting faux-scientists conducting weighted experiments. how about come up with your own arguments
    so can you, but I don't see you throwing down your guns any time soon. funny how that works
    God this is so much fun
    surprise!! gay people can be transphobic!!

    you're my hero  :)

    crowleylordjohnwhorfinwhy-baconstang
  • Reply 57 of 127
    crowleycrowley Posts: 10,453member
    jet23 said:

    [snip]


    Tallest skil, I would have expected you to think twice before posting these garbage links again, but here we are. Let's take a look, shall we?

    [snip]
    Again, excellent work.
    singularitylordjohnwhorfinbaconstangboopthesnoot
  • Reply 58 of 127
    radarthekatradarthekat Posts: 3,608moderator
    foggyhill said:
    Amazing how people can't read.  First, I was very clear.  My DEFAULT position, meaning a first draft, of sorts.  Then, I clearly asked the question, starting from that stance, what problems exist?  Rather than stating problems, you start right off telling me what you assume I want.  What I want, is to know where the simple draft solution, the strawman I threw out, breaks down.  Where there are cases where it doesn't serve the populous.  This is how we collaborate to reach consensus.

    We're trying to solve a problem of fitting a whole spectrum of gender, with some individuals among the population in transition within that spectrum, and fitting every individual into one of two buckets, each of which represents just one point along the spectrum.  Not an easy issue to resolve.  So my starting position needs a little modification (all others should not just be dumped into the other restroom) and a little clarification.  I'm starting from an assumption that, in aggregate, the population representing the male portion of the spectrum is less likely to be in danger or even offended should someone enter their restroom who is far away from them on the spectrum.  So I'm basically defining my first rule, if you have stand-up equipment, use the restroom already in existence designed for use by those with that equipment, to cover a portion of the population that is easy to accomodate.  And I'm dropping my second, all-encompassing, rule (all others use the other restroom).  So we need a replacement second, third, fourth(?) rule to distribute the rest of the populace.  Or we can just let anyone do whatever they feel they want to do, but then why have separate gender-accommodating restrooms in the first place?  
    Yes, indeed why. Having an open public area with no doors (like many places are right now, maybe even put cameras in that place), for washing hands, whatever, with stalls for everyone (maybe self-cleaning) would solve every issue in large areas. Everywhere else, have single stalls bathrooms (which is already the case in many new buildings, this also accommodates people with disabilities better).

    Protecting "da women" "da children" (sic) is often used as a justification for all kind of boneheaded or bigoted laws, including segregation laws.



    are we now having a conversation about rebuilding all existing bathrooms?  Because that's not what I was talking about.  I was very clear that the problem is one of determining how to allocate a large spectrum of gender identities within two existing restroom options.  That's an issue that needs to be resolved, even if new builds take a different approach.

    And I deliberately worded my reference to males being less likely to be in danger or offended in a manner to avoid exactly the hyperbole you went directly to.  This just shows you have an agenda and aren't considering what others are actually writing here.  You don't seem to want to actually have a reasonable discussion that could lead to a workable solution.
  • Reply 59 of 127

    We're trying to solve a problem of fitting a whole spectrum of gender, with some individuals among the population in transition within that spectrum, and fitting every individual into one of two buckets, each of which represents just one point along the spectrum.  Not an easy issue to resolve.  So my starting position needs a little modification (all others should not just be dumped into the other restroom) and a little clarification. 
    Not exactly. North Carolina and other states are specifically CREATING a problem where none exists. There isn't a single incident of people going into "the wrong bathroom" or "the wrong changing room" and causing problems. These laws are not based in facts, statistics or research; they're simply red meat thrown to the conservative wolves to drum up support and get them to the polls. They don't have the slightest fact or even anecdote to base their bias against, so their only arguments are contrived hypothetical situations based on ignorance and prejudice. It's really sad to see the nastiness and ignorance in this forum, but it seems to only come from the same two or three people who are always eager to spew their religious-based venom. They're inconsequential.
    singularitybaconstangNemWan
  • Reply 60 of 127
    portcityportcity Posts: 68member
    Cook is a hypocrite. Apple's second biggest market is China. Apple makes the majority of its devices in China. Yet China is very anti lbgt. In fact gays are not even allowed in tv shows, movies, commercials, etc. in China. So he is willing to do all of this business in China but comes down on NC for a bathroom law? Most people have never read the Charlotte bathroom ordinance. If they did, they would see why the state implemented HB2 into law. The people of Charlotte didn't want the ordinance(which was brought forth by a registered child sex offender) but it was forced onto them. Businesses, churches, etc would have been forced to allow men (dressed as women or not) into women's facilities. The man could not be removed from the facility as long as he said he identified as a woman (dressed as one or not). Other countries have tried this and quickly changed the law back due to women being abused while in their facilities by men. HB2 protects women and children. Read the law for yourself. Also, sex cannot be changed its in the DNA, Matthew 19:4
    edited July 2016 tallest skiljoseph_went_south
Sign In or Register to comment.