I dont remmeber the Pippin exactly, but I dont remember its having any similarities otehr than it used the same processer, and had a zip drive.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Nope. Nvidia NVX. It was designed expressly for the X-Box. As far as power goes, it's something like a Geforce 3.5, with less texturing capabilities. Because the X-Box uses UMA (unified memory architecture), there is a very limited amount of graphics memory when compared to the GeForce 3 or 4. The X-Box has 64 MB total system memory, which is shared between all the components.</strong><hr></blockquote>
If you really want to get technical, it's the nVidia nv2A. As the name designates, it's slightly better than the nv20 (Geforce 3) but not quite as good as the nv25 (Geforce 4 ti). The main advantage the nv2A has over the Geforce 3 is dual vertex shaders.
If you really want to get technical, it's the nVidia nv2A. As the name designates, it's slightly better than the nv20 (Geforce 3) but not quite as good as the nv25 (Geforce 4 ti). The main advantage the nv2A has over the Geforce 3 is dual vertex shaders.
Steve</strong><hr></blockquote>
My bad. I thought it was NV-X, you know, for X-Box. But know I realize that I thought that because the commercial name is X-GPU.
Uhhh, no. The GameCube is very different than a Mac architecturally, and honestly, more powerful than either of those cards. It doesn't blow them away with polys a second, but its texturing capabilities are beyond that of a GeForce3. Not sure about the GeForce4 though.
Beyond that, why would you want to play games designed for the GameCube controller, with its unique button layout, dual analogue sticks, and two analogue shoulder buttons with a wide range of motion and a digital click, with your mouse and keyboard or USB gamepad? They wouldn't be able to do the job.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You have a long line of BS stinking up your post. I've read the specs, seen the reviews, and played all three systems side by side. There is no putting the Game cub in the same catagory as either of the other systems graphicly it's the sloutch of the three systems in all areas.
You can see it plainly at any Target if you need to see it for self.
Yes. I do think they could do it. but they'd need to make a few changes. these revolve around the original machine.
To start off with. the Pippin. at it's heart. was a vanilla PowerMac through and through. it ran a completely normal version of the Macintosh System Software. you could actually take _any_ Pippin disc. insert it in a Macintosh. and run it. the only real differences between a normal Power Macintosh and the Pippin were:
A Pippin booted off of a System folder on the root level of the CD that was loaded in the drive.
Upon booting up. Pippins would auto-run the software. using something similar to QuickTime CD-ROM AutoPlay.
Pippin titles were designed to be gamepad friendly.
Thusly. the main difference between the X-Box vs. the IBM PC and Pippin vs. the Macintosh is that a Pippin title would run natively under it's PC progenitor. whereas X-Box titles can't just be inserted into any IBM PC and run natively(Although this would be an ultra cool. and very easy hack ).
So what caused the Pippin to bomb? the answers are simple:
No major titles.
Apple. unlike Atari, 3DO, Sony, Sega and Nintendo. didn't have any kind of in-house(1st party) development team. as well. they lacked any Pippin-exclusive titles from big console houses like SquareSoft, Capcom, Konami and Namco or big desktop houses like Interplay, Maxis, Bungie, Infogrames and LucasArts.
No serious marketing.
Unlike the flashy TV and magazine ad campaigns preceding the PlayStation, N64 and X-Box introductions. Apple made no similar blitz. Apple didn't pump the saturday morning cartoon show ad slot. and when you opened up a copy of GamePro. you didn't see Pippin ads in it's pages. even worse. Apple didn't bring the Pippin to E3 at LA(Actually. Apple has NEVER attended an E3 event for any reason? ).
Not enough power.
The Pippin was equipped with a mere 66Mhz 603(_Not_ a 603e), 6 MBs of standard RAM(1 MB for VRAM). with up to 14 MB through a single module. and NO dedicated graphics or sound acceleration hardware or integrated DSPs(Ala Quadra 630). and no MPEG decoder(For VCDs. which actually beat out VHSs and DVDs in asia). a better machine to base it on would have been the Performa 6400/180(I may be a bit biased. as my previous Mac just happened to be a PowerMac 6500/250 ).
Lack of distribution.
When you went to Circuit City, Toys 'R' Us, BlockBuster or Sears. the very last thing you would see was a Pippin. even the Atari Jaguar titles managed to eat up 14 feet of shelf space at the Warehouse I went to when it was on the market.
The only explanation I can think of is that Apple just wasn't trying.
Now what would be needed for a Pippin(In spirit if not ill-fated name. maybe iMac SE or iCube) 2? I suppose that something novel would be needed to distinguish it from others in it's catagory.
The distinguishing feature of most consoles today is their graphics/sound hardware. getting a yet bigger GPU would be too easily one-up-able. so why not just skip it? the strong point of the GPU is it's incredible speed at certain types of math functions. the weak point of the GPU is the fact of that those particular math functions are the _only_ things it can do. period.
The CPU. while not quite as quick as the dedicated GPU at it's run-of-the-mill math. can be reprogrammed do amazing things with lesser used. and more complex styles of math.
For example. try doing voxels in a GPU. and try physical modeling simulation on audio hardware. as three G4s would cost nearly the same as a G4, a GPU and an audio chip. imagine how unique a game hardcoded in binary for a tri-G4 Mac would look, sound and feel. the sheer number of unusual techniques that could be used would totally steamroller every other game ever made.
Games are. of course. one of the defining parts of any console as a whole. Nintendo is known for using their legendary franchises. like Mario, Zelda, Metroid, Star Fox and Kirby . as well as superstar producer. Shigeru Miyamoto. to compensate for their lack of hardware. and quite effectively at that.
In order to one-up the others. Apple would have to round up a cadre of the finest game designers it could find. possibly buying one or more companies wholesale. to form an in-house game studio unrivaled by others. but. one rather unfortunately untried technique for finding superior programmers, artists, musicians and writers could prove Apple's saving grace. instead of drawing from the increasingly repetitive, unoriginal pool of self stated game developers. Apple could instead draw from the little seen. and radically different talent hidden so long in universities, science jobs and the depths of the art and literature worlds.
This. combined with the unprecedented flexability and power of the Pippin 2 would spawn a new. sophisticated world of "interactive media". instead of the current simple-minded button mashing B-movie dreck games being pumped out by the mainstream media. this would give children, women, men over 30 and (more intelligent ) teenage boys something fresh and new to play when tired of the usual titles.
Another easily visible characteristic of any console is it's controller. although the 2D gamepad has dominated since Nintendo's Entertainment System. it is clearly showing it's age. something new is needed. something like <a href="http://redwood.stomped.com/reviews/hardware/spaceorb/"; target="_blank">this</a>. a 3D controller. with six analog axes of control. the final blow would be to include a headset mic for speech recognition(Using good. multi-Altivec optomized algorithms). and heavily encourage it's use in Pippin 2 titles.
Extra features and perks are also a distinguishing feature of consoles. with many consoles now promising things like network connections and DVD decoding. some obvious perks to add to a Pippin 2 would be:
Optional hybrid HDTV/4DTV/DVB/C-Band/KU-Band/DBS/PAL/SECAM/NTSC television/AM/FM/XM radio tuner(Available as a PCI card on Wintel boxs right now for about $120 MSRP).
PVR functionality(Obviously free software. with a hard and/or DVD-Multi drive and TV tuner of course).
PVR functionality(Obviously free software. with a hard and/or DVD-Multi drive and TV tuner of course)
Nonlinear A/V Recording with optional DVD-Multi drive(Currently selling for about $250 MSRP).
Fax/data/voice modem. so that you can use it as an answering machine, telephone and telex unit. the inclusion of an updated QuickTime Videoconfrencing Kit would add videophone to it's resumé.
Splurge on 64-bit G5s instead of 32-bit G4s. thus allowing for 48, 50 or even 64-bit digitizers/synthesizers(Ala SGI). which would give the A/V I/O(Boy that's alot of acronyms!) of the Pippin 2 unprecedented quality and range.
Make the controllers wireless(Preferably with infra-red. so that users wouldn't be irradiated).
The last. and most important characteristic of any console launch is. of course. the marketing.
It goes without saying that Apple would have to be even more flashy. persistant and outragous than Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo were at launch. however. something more would be needed. one unique variety of set-top box. that has not been seen since the golden days of Atari. is that in which one gets their complete desktop OS. and without changing, dumbing down, simplifying or trimming it. just stick it directly into a set-top box. only market it as an "Information Appliance" anyway. my reasoning behind this is:
Just because someone doesn't have enough money for a full computer. does that mean that they are also to stupid to use one?
Due to this. massive numbers of people who had been holding off for a full Mac. but hadn't bought one because it was just too far out of their means. would proceed to buy them for this reason alone.
The single most important thing though. would be Apple committing themselves to nothing less than absolute. utter dominance over Sony, MS, Nintendo and whomever else was in the market by then. in other words. first place. or nothing.
[quote]The CPU. While not quite as quick as the dedicated GPU at it's run-of-the-mill math. can be reprogrammed do amazing things with lesser used. and more complex styles of math.<hr></blockquote>
Correct me if im wrong but isnt this something that Sony tried to do with their PS2. Using their CPU to perform complex less used mathatical algorithms to produce graphics engines? However developers have been complaining since before the PS2's launch about the difficulty of programing for the Emotion Engine (I think thats what it is called.) Sony was able to get away with this becuase of their behemoth like stature in the console buisness. It would be a death call for Apple. Developers dont like to take risks on unproven, and unreleased hardware platforms.
While having a multiproccesor PowerPC, with special Altivec processing capabilities could produce amazing, and an as yet unseen graphical experience on consoles, the difficulty of programming for such a device could throw a wrench into the plans.
In my view a better goal to shoot for would be to make the console as easy to program for as possible. You might find that more amazing games come out of a console that is easy to programm for, yet dosnt quite have the same level of CPU or GPU ability.
[quote][...]that in which one gets their complete desktop OS. and without changing, dumbing down, simplifying or trimming it. just stick it directly into a set-top box. only market it as an "Information Appliance"<hr></blockquote>
Im not sure that would be the correct way to market such a device. If on one hand you have a traditional console, and on the other you have a set-top box with internet, fax, e-mail, etc. And you market it as an internet appliance, you risk confusing your target audience. Is it a console? Or is it a set-top box? Does it do both just as well? Or is it a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none sort of device. The point is to stay focused on exactly what the machine does. And not try to branch it out. Its okay to have some add ons to the tradition console. Like modems, etc. But it is still a game console. And you want to market it as such.
This is infact one of the reasons that Pippin failed. It tried to become an information appliance of sorts. Apple attempted to do something like what you describe. Have a console that plays games, yet make and market it as an "Internet Appliance." The problem with the original Pippin (and would be the same for Pippin2 if it followed your strategy) is that adding all these wiz bang extra features add's onto the development time. So not only are you tackling the already mammoth task of launching a fully-fledged no holes barred game console. Your also complicating matters with adding all these set-top box like features. Pippin also lost its launch window becuase of their attempting to add these 'extra' features. And timming is everything
No I think the best rout for a Pippin2 would focus on creating a simple, easy to program for, robust, yet expandable in the future game console.
Its chief features being
- Robust CPU architechture. (With an emphesis on sound features/quality,graphical throughput/ and above all else efficiancy.)
- Low Cost
- Ease of Programmability
- Future Expandibility
- Upgradeabillity
- A non-resticting game development environment.
Its all to easy to get sidetracked by super performace capabilities, and awsome algorithim potential, as you described. But all to often these designs end up falling flat on their face's. By eaither being to hard to programm for (thus driving away developer support). And/or being to costly to manufacture. In the end it will be the developers that decide the fate of the platform. They will make those amazing games that attract the mind-less mass'. It would be essential to put the developers first and formost.
[quote]The single most important thing though. would be Apple committing themselves to nothing less than absolute. utter dominance over Sony, MS, Nintendo and whomever else was in the market by then. in other words. first place. or nothing.<hr></blockquote>
I dont think that there is much debate here. In order to succesfully navigate the console waters Apple would need to be tottaly and utterly comitted to the project. They would have to be willing to spend billions of dollars to get the project off the ground. There is no halfway. The risks would be great. But the rewards greater.
I'm sure Apple could design a console that hardware wise would be competitive with whatever is out there. However, since Apple has little credibility with gamers, they would have to find game producing partners to commit exclusive titles to it.
I think it that more likely that Apple would just disign and produce a machine for another company. Hopefully it would be marketed and developed for more intelligently than the Apple/Bandai Pippin was.
You have a long line of BS stinking up your post. I've read the specs, seen the reviews, and played all three systems side by side. There is no putting the Game cub in the same catagory as either of the other systems graphicly it's the sloutch of the three systems in all areas.
You can see it plainly at any Target if you need to see it for self.</strong><hr></blockquote>
No need to go to Target. I have all the systems in my house.
What the hell are you smoking? The PS2 is MUCH less powerful than the GCN. Ask a game developer.
Pippin for all of its features, is actually a BanDai product. Apple just provided the hardware.
I don't know about creating another Pippin. But a low cost simplifed general personal computer is always a nice idea, Just like the Pippin, which is a low cost simplified general personal computer at around U$600.
Personally, the condition now is much better. I mean that the iMac is around half there. Just cut the digital monitor and you get a... half sphere?
But perharps the trick is to make the Macintosh more Pippin-like (like the Macintosh originial intention in 1984) instead of making the Macintosh into another Pippin?
Anyway. What I'm interested on is another product (or products) that is the result of the jogress evolution between Apple and BanDai. BanDai should be involved again. After all, Pippin won't exist as a marketable product if it isn't because of BanDai. Before BanDai made a deal, Pippin is only one of those many many MANY concept researches that Apple worked on (in a very very VERY different form than you know today), that probably won't come out as a product if BanDai hadn't stepped in. Apple wasn't really that interested in Pippin, it was BanDai who had the primary interest on the Pippin. Pippin in the sense, is actually a BanDai product.
Maybe Apple can helped to improve the network (including wireless using Bluetooth and Internet) and PC connectivity of BanDai products? After all, BanDai's WonderSwan is Internet capable thanks to an Internet adapter, and now it can even functioned as a GPS device with a GPS add on. And making the Digital Hub (the whole concept that Apple talked about connecting Digital Devices with each other).
Note: BanDai was kinda looking for a home for its products back then, that's why it wanted the Pippin. It wanted its very own Digital Hub. Nintendo and Sega (once anyway) got theirs, but BanDai?
Imagining playing multiplayer WonderSwan games wirelessly using Bluetooth, and plus playing them over the Internet. Or a connecting a Digivice with a WonderSwan or even PC wirelessly. And etc. Don't know if it's already being done yet, but it would be nice.
Onwward, a new Adventure into the new Frontier.
As for the gaming console market.
You got to realize that... The gaming market is filled with politics, more than you know, and probably more than you ever imagined.
You got to realize that the only reason that Sony with the PlayStation managed to entered the gaming console market (that is filled with many ferocious market rulers that have no second doubt of silencing new entries), is that... Sony is ?allowed? by ?them?. ?They? control a lot of things to manipulate the market (not just the gaming market, but almost ANY market, like the stock market) into their own liking, this varies from external cotrol (like the press) or internal control (like inside the company itself). ?They? allowed Atari to become market leader, then ?they? took Atari down. ?They? allowed Nintendo to become market leader in the 8-bit market with the Family Computer / Nintendo Entertaiment System, Sega to become market leader in the 16-bit market with the Mega Drive / Genesis, Sony to become market leader in the 32-bit market with the PlayStation, and so on.
So... Forget all of those stuff about advanced hardware and software, big marketing, supportive mass media, supportive developers, and so on. The basic is simple, you're either ?allowed? or NOT ?allowed? by them. If you're ?allowed?, you will be showered with the latest high tech things with low cost, extreme marketing, very supportive mass media, very supportive developers, and so on. IF you're NOT ?allowed?, then I think you know on what will happen next.
Anyway. The gaming console market is filled with a lot of dead game consoles and perharps also their manufacturers/marketers (either died out of old age or killed halfway). So... Please be corteous to those that didn't make it. Yes. Maybe some of the reasons they didn't make it is because their capability isn't enough, but... it isn't fair to say that they are there because of their own inability. There are a lot of graves out there. Please have respect for the dead, and the living.
Of course... ?They? don't control everything, it's ?Him? who control everything (as in EVERYTHING). So... ?They? don't always get what ?they? wanted and everything will worked out fine eventually (but then again, it actually depends on how one defined ?fine?).
Building a game machine and commiting to it fully would kill Apple. The machine would fail utterly in the marketplace and if they bet the bank on it they'd go down. If Microsoft's enormous bankroll is struggling to make XBox fly, then Apple doesn't stand a chance at it. Microsoft did start of trying to flog the XBox as an information appliance / convergence / set-top box kind of thing... and they discovered that nobody was interested. The majority of game developers will only build games for a game console because people buy the most games for a game console and thus that's where the money is. Microsoft realized this early on in the XBox effort and went with it, which is why they've gotten as far as they have. Going the other way they'd have nothing.
The Pippin sucked for games, by the way. I was way behind the other consoles at the time (even ones that had been out for a couple of years already), and they didn't even try to get any serious number of developers interested in it.
Do we really need another "Apple Game Console" thread? This topic got beaten to death in the other one, and posting all the same stuff in this thread isn't going to change any of it.
Comments
<strong>Yes, simple.
I dont remmeber the Pippin exactly, but I dont remember its having any similarities otehr than it used the same processer, and had a zip drive.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes Pippin boots Mac OS.
<strong>
Nope. Nvidia NVX. It was designed expressly for the X-Box. As far as power goes, it's something like a Geforce 3.5, with less texturing capabilities. Because the X-Box uses UMA (unified memory architecture), there is a very limited amount of graphics memory when compared to the GeForce 3 or 4. The X-Box has 64 MB total system memory, which is shared between all the components.</strong><hr></blockquote>
If you really want to get technical, it's the nVidia nv2A. As the name designates, it's slightly better than the nv20 (Geforce 3) but not quite as good as the nv25 (Geforce 4 ti). The main advantage the nv2A has over the Geforce 3 is dual vertex shaders.
Steve
<strong>
If you really want to get technical, it's the nVidia nv2A. As the name designates, it's slightly better than the nv20 (Geforce 3) but not quite as good as the nv25 (Geforce 4 ti). The main advantage the nv2A has over the Geforce 3 is dual vertex shaders.
Steve</strong><hr></blockquote>
My bad. I thought it was NV-X, you know, for X-Box. But know I realize that I thought that because the commercial name is X-GPU.
<strong>
Uhhh, no. The GameCube is very different than a Mac architecturally, and honestly, more powerful than either of those cards. It doesn't blow them away with polys a second, but its texturing capabilities are beyond that of a GeForce3. Not sure about the GeForce4 though.
Beyond that, why would you want to play games designed for the GameCube controller, with its unique button layout, dual analogue sticks, and two analogue shoulder buttons with a wide range of motion and a digital click, with your mouse and keyboard or USB gamepad? They wouldn't be able to do the job.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You have a long line of BS stinking up your post. I've read the specs, seen the reviews, and played all three systems side by side. There is no putting the Game cub in the same catagory as either of the other systems graphicly it's the sloutch of the three systems in all areas.
You can see it plainly at any Target if you need to see it for self.
To start off with. the Pippin. at it's heart. was a vanilla PowerMac through and through. it ran a completely normal version of the Macintosh System Software. you could actually take _any_ Pippin disc. insert it in a Macintosh. and run it. the only real differences between a normal Power Macintosh and the Pippin were:
- A Pippin booted off of a System folder on the root level of the CD that was loaded in the drive.
- Upon booting up. Pippins would auto-run the software. using something similar to QuickTime CD-ROM AutoPlay.
- Pippin titles were designed to be gamepad friendly.
Thusly. the main difference between the X-Box vs. the IBM PC and Pippin vs. the Macintosh is that a Pippin title would run natively under it's PC progenitor. whereas X-Box titles can't just be inserted into any IBM PC and run natively(Although this would be an ultra cool. and very easy hackSo what caused the Pippin to bomb? the answers are simple:
- No major titles.
- No serious marketing.
).
- Not enough power.
).
- Lack of distribution.
The only explanation I can think of is that Apple just wasn't trying.Apple. unlike Atari, 3DO, Sony, Sega and Nintendo. didn't have any kind of in-house(1st party) development team. as well. they lacked any Pippin-exclusive titles from big console houses like SquareSoft, Capcom, Konami and Namco or big desktop houses like Interplay, Maxis, Bungie, Infogrames and LucasArts.
Unlike the flashy TV and magazine ad campaigns preceding the PlayStation, N64 and X-Box introductions. Apple made no similar blitz. Apple didn't pump the saturday morning cartoon show ad slot. and when you opened up a copy of GamePro. you didn't see Pippin ads in it's pages. even worse. Apple didn't bring the Pippin to E3 at LA(Actually. Apple has NEVER attended an E3 event for any reason?
The Pippin was equipped with a mere 66Mhz 603(_Not_ a 603e), 6 MBs of standard RAM(1 MB for VRAM). with up to 14 MB through a single module. and NO dedicated graphics or sound acceleration hardware or integrated DSPs(Ala Quadra 630). and no MPEG decoder(For VCDs. which actually beat out VHSs and DVDs in asia). a better machine to base it on would have been the Performa 6400/180(I may be a bit biased. as my previous Mac just happened to be a PowerMac 6500/250
When you went to Circuit City, Toys 'R' Us, BlockBuster or Sears. the very last thing you would see was a Pippin. even the Atari Jaguar titles managed to eat up 14 feet of shelf space at the Warehouse I went to when it was on the market.
Now what would be needed for a Pippin(In spirit if not ill-fated name. maybe iMac SE or iCube) 2? I suppose that something novel would be needed to distinguish it from others in it's catagory.
The distinguishing feature of most consoles today is their graphics/sound hardware. getting a yet bigger GPU would be too easily one-up-able. so why not just skip it? the strong point of the GPU is it's incredible speed at certain types of math functions. the weak point of the GPU is the fact of that those particular math functions are the _only_ things it can do. period.
The CPU. while not quite as quick as the dedicated GPU at it's run-of-the-mill math. can be reprogrammed do amazing things with lesser used. and more complex styles of math.
For example. try doing voxels in a GPU. and try physical modeling simulation on audio hardware. as three G4s would cost nearly the same as a G4, a GPU and an audio chip. imagine how unique a game hardcoded in binary for a tri-G4 Mac would look, sound and feel. the sheer number of unusual techniques that could be used would totally steamroller every other game ever made.
Games are. of course. one of the defining parts of any console as a whole. Nintendo is known for using their legendary franchises. like Mario, Zelda, Metroid, Star Fox and Kirby . as well as superstar producer. Shigeru Miyamoto. to compensate for their lack of hardware. and quite effectively at that.
In order to one-up the others. Apple would have to round up a cadre of the finest game designers it could find. possibly buying one or more companies wholesale. to form an in-house game studio unrivaled by others. but. one rather unfortunately untried technique for finding superior programmers, artists, musicians and writers could prove Apple's saving grace. instead of drawing from the increasingly repetitive, unoriginal pool of self stated game developers. Apple could instead draw from the little seen. and radically different talent hidden so long in universities, science jobs and the depths of the art and literature worlds.
This. combined with the unprecedented flexability and power of the Pippin 2 would spawn a new. sophisticated world of "interactive media". instead of the current simple-minded button mashing B-movie dreck games being pumped out by the mainstream media. this would give children, women, men over 30 and (more intelligent
Another easily visible characteristic of any console is it's controller. although the 2D gamepad has dominated since Nintendo's Entertainment System. it is clearly showing it's age. something new is needed. something like <a href="http://redwood.stomped.com/reviews/hardware/spaceorb/"; target="_blank">this</a>. a 3D controller. with six analog axes of control. the final blow would be to include a headset mic for speech recognition(Using good. multi-Altivec optomized algorithms). and heavily encourage it's use in Pippin 2 titles.
Extra features and perks are also a distinguishing feature of consoles. with many consoles now promising things like network connections and DVD decoding. some obvious perks to add to a Pippin 2 would be:
- Optional hybrid HDTV/4DTV/DVB/C-Band/KU-Band/DBS/PAL/SECAM/NTSC television/AM/FM/XM radio tuner(Available as a PCI card on Wintel boxs right now for about $120 MSRP).
- PVR functionality(Obviously free software. with a hard and/or DVD-Multi drive and TV tuner of course).
- PVR functionality(Obviously free software. with a hard and/or DVD-Multi drive and TV tuner of course)
- Nonlinear A/V Recording with optional DVD-Multi drive(Currently selling for about $250 MSRP).
- Fax/data/voice modem. so that you can use it as an answering machine, telephone and telex unit. the inclusion of an updated QuickTime Videoconfrencing Kit would add videophone to it's resumé.
- Splurge on 64-bit G5s instead of 32-bit G4s. thus allowing for 48, 50 or even 64-bit digitizers/synthesizers(Ala SGI). which would give the A/V I/O(Boy that's alot of acronyms!) of the Pippin 2 unprecedented quality and range.
- Make the controllers wireless(Preferably with infra-red. so that users wouldn't be irradiated).
The last. and most important characteristic of any console launch is. of course. the marketing.It goes without saying that Apple would have to be even more flashy. persistant and outragous than Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo were at launch. however. something more would be needed. one unique variety of set-top box. that has not been seen since the golden days of Atari. is that in which one gets their complete desktop OS. and without changing, dumbing down, simplifying or trimming it. just stick it directly into a set-top box. only market it as an "Information Appliance" anyway. my reasoning behind this is:
Just because someone doesn't have enough money for a full computer. does that mean that they are also to stupid to use one?
Due to this. massive numbers of people who had been holding off for a full Mac. but hadn't bought one because it was just too far out of their means. would proceed to buy them for this reason alone.
The single most important thing though. would be Apple committing themselves to nothing less than absolute. utter dominance over Sony, MS, Nintendo and whomever else was in the market by then. in other words. first place. or nothing.
Eric,
[quote]The CPU. While not quite as quick as the dedicated GPU at it's run-of-the-mill math. can be reprogrammed do amazing things with lesser used. and more complex styles of math.<hr></blockquote>
Correct me if im wrong but isnt this something that Sony tried to do with their PS2. Using their CPU to perform complex less used mathatical algorithms to produce graphics engines? However developers have been complaining since before the PS2's launch about the difficulty of programing for the Emotion Engine (I think thats what it is called.) Sony was able to get away with this becuase of their behemoth like stature in the console buisness. It would be a death call for Apple. Developers dont like to take risks on unproven, and unreleased hardware platforms.
While having a multiproccesor PowerPC, with special Altivec processing capabilities could produce amazing, and an as yet unseen graphical experience on consoles, the difficulty of programming for such a device could throw a wrench into the plans.
In my view a better goal to shoot for would be to make the console as easy to program for as possible. You might find that more amazing games come out of a console that is easy to programm for, yet dosnt quite have the same level of CPU or GPU ability.
[quote][...]that in which one gets their complete desktop OS. and without changing, dumbing down, simplifying or trimming it. just stick it directly into a set-top box. only market it as an "Information Appliance"<hr></blockquote>
Im not sure that would be the correct way to market such a device. If on one hand you have a traditional console, and on the other you have a set-top box with internet, fax, e-mail, etc. And you market it as an internet appliance, you risk confusing your target audience. Is it a console? Or is it a set-top box? Does it do both just as well? Or is it a jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none sort of device. The point is to stay focused on exactly what the machine does. And not try to branch it out. Its okay to have some add ons to the tradition console. Like modems, etc. But it is still a game console. And you want to market it as such.
This is infact one of the reasons that Pippin failed. It tried to become an information appliance of sorts. Apple attempted to do something like what you describe. Have a console that plays games, yet make and market it as an "Internet Appliance." The problem with the original Pippin (and would be the same for Pippin2 if it followed your strategy) is that adding all these wiz bang extra features add's onto the development time. So not only are you tackling the already mammoth task of launching a fully-fledged no holes barred game console. Your also complicating matters with adding all these set-top box like features. Pippin also lost its launch window becuase of their attempting to add these 'extra' features. And timming is everything
No I think the best rout for a Pippin2 would focus on creating a simple, easy to program for, robust, yet expandable in the future game console.
Its chief features being
- Robust CPU architechture. (With an emphesis on sound features/quality,graphical throughput/ and above all else efficiancy.)
- Low Cost
- Ease of Programmability
- Future Expandibility
- Upgradeabillity
- A non-resticting game development environment.
Its all to easy to get sidetracked by super performace capabilities, and awsome algorithim potential, as you described. But all to often these designs end up falling flat on their face's. By eaither being to hard to programm for (thus driving away developer support). And/or being to costly to manufacture. In the end it will be the developers that decide the fate of the platform. They will make those amazing games that attract the mind-less mass'. It would be essential to put the developers first and formost.
[quote]The single most important thing though. would be Apple committing themselves to nothing less than absolute. utter dominance over Sony, MS, Nintendo and whomever else was in the market by then. in other words. first place. or nothing.<hr></blockquote>
I dont think that there is much debate here. In order to succesfully navigate the console waters Apple would need to be tottaly and utterly comitted to the project. They would have to be willing to spend billions of dollars to get the project off the ground. There is no halfway. The risks would be great. But the rewards greater.
I think it that more likely that Apple would just disign and produce a machine for another company. Hopefully it would be marketed and developed for more intelligently than the Apple/Bandai Pippin was.
<strong>
You have a long line of BS stinking up your post. I've read the specs, seen the reviews, and played all three systems side by side. There is no putting the Game cub in the same catagory as either of the other systems graphicly it's the sloutch of the three systems in all areas.
You can see it plainly at any Target if you need to see it for self.</strong><hr></blockquote>
No need to go to Target. I have all the systems in my house.
What the hell are you smoking? The PS2 is MUCH less powerful than the GCN. Ask a game developer.
And get a spell check, buddy.
I don't know about creating another Pippin. But a low cost simplifed general personal computer is always a nice idea, Just like the Pippin, which is a low cost simplified general personal computer at around U$600.
Personally, the condition now is much better. I mean that the iMac is around half there. Just cut the digital monitor and you get a... half sphere?
But perharps the trick is to make the Macintosh more Pippin-like (like the Macintosh originial intention in 1984) instead of making the Macintosh into another Pippin?
Anyway. What I'm interested on is another product (or products) that is the result of the jogress evolution between Apple and BanDai. BanDai should be involved again. After all, Pippin won't exist as a marketable product if it isn't because of BanDai. Before BanDai made a deal, Pippin is only one of those many many MANY concept researches that Apple worked on (in a very very VERY different form than you know today), that probably won't come out as a product if BanDai hadn't stepped in. Apple wasn't really that interested in Pippin, it was BanDai who had the primary interest on the Pippin. Pippin in the sense, is actually a BanDai product.
Maybe Apple can helped to improve the network (including wireless using Bluetooth and Internet) and PC connectivity of BanDai products? After all, BanDai's WonderSwan is Internet capable thanks to an Internet adapter, and now it can even functioned as a GPS device with a GPS add on. And making the Digital Hub (the whole concept that Apple talked about connecting Digital Devices with each other).
Note: BanDai was kinda looking for a home for its products back then, that's why it wanted the Pippin. It wanted its very own Digital Hub. Nintendo and Sega (once anyway) got theirs, but BanDai?
Imagining playing multiplayer WonderSwan games wirelessly using Bluetooth, and plus playing them over the Internet. Or a connecting a Digivice with a WonderSwan or even PC wirelessly. And etc. Don't know if it's already being done yet, but it would be nice.
Onwward, a new Adventure into the new Frontier.
As for the gaming console market.
You got to realize that... The gaming market is filled with politics, more than you know, and probably more than you ever imagined.
You got to realize that the only reason that Sony with the PlayStation managed to entered the gaming console market (that is filled with many ferocious market rulers that have no second doubt of silencing new entries), is that... Sony is ?allowed? by ?them?. ?They? control a lot of things to manipulate the market (not just the gaming market, but almost ANY market, like the stock market) into their own liking, this varies from external cotrol (like the press) or internal control (like inside the company itself). ?They? allowed Atari to become market leader, then ?they? took Atari down. ?They? allowed Nintendo to become market leader in the 8-bit market with the Family Computer / Nintendo Entertaiment System, Sega to become market leader in the 16-bit market with the Mega Drive / Genesis, Sony to become market leader in the 32-bit market with the PlayStation, and so on.
So... Forget all of those stuff about advanced hardware and software, big marketing, supportive mass media, supportive developers, and so on. The basic is simple, you're either ?allowed? or NOT ?allowed? by them. If you're ?allowed?, you will be showered with the latest high tech things with low cost, extreme marketing, very supportive mass media, very supportive developers, and so on. IF you're NOT ?allowed?, then I think you know on what will happen next.
Anyway. The gaming console market is filled with a lot of dead game consoles and perharps also their manufacturers/marketers (either died out of old age or killed halfway). So... Please be corteous to those that didn't make it. Yes. Maybe some of the reasons they didn't make it is because their capability isn't enough, but... it isn't fair to say that they are there because of their own inability. There are a lot of graves out there. Please have respect for the dead, and the living.
Of course... ?They? don't control everything, it's ?Him? who control everything (as in EVERYTHING). So... ?They? don't always get what ?they? wanted and everything will worked out fine eventually (but then again, it actually depends on how one defined ?fine?).
The Pippin sucked for games, by the way. I was way behind the other consoles at the time (even ones that had been out for a couple of years already), and they didn't even try to get any serious number of developers interested in it.
Do we really need another "Apple Game Console" thread? This topic got beaten to death in the other one, and posting all the same stuff in this thread isn't going to change any of it.