Retailers, payments association side with Australian banks over Apple Pay negotiations

2

Comments

  • Reply 21 of 43

    So what are Apple's options here? They can be forced to negotiate? Or what?

    And even if they are forced to negotiate, nothing stops them from refusing any offer.

    Apple will not open up NFC on the iPhone to 3rd parties. They may simply decide that dealing with the financial institutions in Oz is a bag of hurt and withdraw official support for Apple Pay there.

    radarthekat
  • Reply 22 of 43
    It will take time and negotiations. And then more time. Both parties are willing to work on a deal, and will come to one in due time. And knowing the firm stance Apple take on security that part of the deal won't be compromised.
    lolliverradarthekat
  • Reply 23 of 43
    Note: The ACCC cannot force Apple to do anything. The ACCC can only allow the banks to negotiate together as one cartel. 

    Then it will be easier for Apple because they only have to say, 'no' once instead of multiple times.
    lolliverradarthekatksecfrantisekbrucemcwaverboynolamacguy
  • Reply 24 of 43
    Just thinking this thru... Assume Apple opens up NFC support to 3rd-pary app (which sounds already bad due to security concerns), next thing AAAC will do is create an Apple Wallet "equivalent" that will use Apple's NFC. The difference is - they can bypass Apple Pay payment gateway - and charge greater commission rate to Australian retailers. It seems to me AAAC cartel is looking for a way to profit from it. Also, 15 cents on $100 thru Apple payment gateway - is an amazing deal - from previous $2.50 - $3.00 on $100 that retailers payed in U.S. to 3rd party payment gateway.
    williamlondon
  • Reply 25 of 43
    croprcropr Posts: 966member
    I think most people here don't realize that the banks want a universal payment + banking app, available on all smartphone platforms, making use of NFC.  Apple is only interested in a payment app but not in a banking app, available on iOS only.  The same applies for the retaIlers;  they want a universal payment + loyalty app, available on all smartphone platforms. 

    The issue about the transaction fee is a minor detail.  The cost and operational impact on back end IT systems of banks and retailers is the main driver for requesting a single universal app.
  • Reply 26 of 43
    AAAC should just do what CVS, Walmart and others did - create their own payment app without NFC using QR codes. I find the idea of having CVS pay app installed - puzzling. Its yet another app i need to install and maintain. Thank god i only go there 2'ce a year at most...
  • Reply 27 of 43
    dmdevdmdev Posts: 31member
    NSA, no way. That's why their NFC hardware should'nt be publicly available. (to be fair, when I say NSA, I really mean rogue hackers in some closet somewhere who can do the same thing)
  • Reply 28 of 43
    cnocbuicnocbui Posts: 3,613member
    I have been using Australian banks for decades.  I have never had an issue with their integrity or security.  They were doing security when Tim Cook was still in nappies.

    Who do Apple trust to store their Billions?  Do they have their own vaults somewhere or do they run their own bank or do they actually trust banks?  It's pretty illogical to say you don't trust banks with security and that you only trust Apple with it when Apple Pay relies entirely on banks and the infrastructure they developed, provide and maintain.

    Oh yes, and accusing Australian Banks of greed and mentioning Apple in the same sentence as if they aren't, is hilarious.

    Tap & Pay allows you to use your compatible smartphone and the CommBank app to make contactless purchases in store. Simply tap your phone on any contactless terminal the next time you are shopping+.

    Tap & Pay is available using your compatible Android phone and the CommBank app. You can link Tap & Pay to your transaction account or credit card so you can make purchases at any contactless terminal using just your phone – even overseas.

    Compatibility:
    Tap & Pay is available on compatible devices running Android 4.4 (KitKat) or above, with inbuilt NFC enabled.

    So where are the security breaches?  It's an NFC chip, a short range radio.  Do iPhone users not trust banks with security and communications to the point they don't access their bank accounts or do other banking tasks over wifi and cellular connections?   There is no logic going on here beyond Apple good, everyone else bad.



    edited August 2016 singularity
  • Reply 29 of 43
    apple should walk away from this one..... banks will eventually buckle when the people demand it enough.
    badmonk
  • Reply 30 of 43
    lolliver said:
    macxpress said:
    I guess if I were Apple, I'd just say fuck Australia! Sorry to those who live there and can't use it, but if banks and retailers want to be dipshits then I guess Apple has no choice. 
    Yep, time to tell Australia to pound sand and remove ApplePay from there.


    Good thing Apple isn't as weak as you two. I highly doubt they would just give up and walk away as you would suggest.

    Did they close down the iBooks store due to the legal issues they had to faced in the US? Did Apple leave the US market due to all the legal cases they have faced in the US due to patent trolls? Tim Cook has also said numerous times they are still planning to open up their online stores (iTunes Movies and iBooks) in China that they had to close down earlier this year. Apple are still progressing with the rollout of Apple Pay in the US despite numerous large retail chains refusing to support it.

    This case is still in the early days and I highly doubt Apple will be forced to open up access to their NFC chip. It's just the banks trying to negotiate more favourable terms for themselves because they know they have no way to compete with Apple on innovation or customer satisfaction.

    Apple already have support from ANZ and AMEX in Australia and it's only a matter of time before the other big banks are forced to adopt Apple Pay or see their iPhone carrying customers change banks.

    Apple hasn't forgotten what it's like to be the underdog when entering new markets and I'm sure they won't just walk away like cowards...

    Bob's your uncle!
    lolliver
  • Reply 31 of 43

    It will be so delicious when Apple opens up a multi offering finance arm and beats these turds into the dust. 
    Likely, Apple doesn't want to enter the highly-regulated banking/finance system.

    lolliverpscooter63
  • Reply 32 of 43
    cnocbui said:
    I have been using Australian banks for decades.  I have never had an issue with their integrity or security.  They were doing security when Tim Cook was still in nappies.

    Who do Apple trust to store their Billions?  Do they have their own vaults somewhere or do they run their own bank or do they actually trust banks?  It's pretty illogical to say you don't trust banks with security and that you only trust Apple with it when Apple Pay relies entirely on banks and the infrastructure they developed, provide and maintain.

    Oh yes, and accusing Australian Banks of greed and mentioning Apple in the same sentence as if they aren't, is hilarious.

    Tap & Pay allows you to use your compatible smartphone and the CommBank app to make contactless purchases in store. Simply tap your phone on any contactless terminal the next time you are shopping+.

    Tap & Pay is available using your compatible Android phone and the CommBank app. You can link Tap & Pay to your transaction account or credit card so you can make purchases at any contactless terminal using just your phone – even overseas.

    Compatibility:
    Tap & Pay is available on compatible devices running Android 4.4 (KitKat) or above, with inbuilt NFC enabled.

    So where are the security breaches?  It's an NFC chip, a short range radio.  Do iPhone users not trust banks with security and communications to the point they don't access their bank accounts or do other banking tasks over wifi and cellular connections?   There is no logic going on here beyond Apple good, everyone else bad.



    ApplePay is EMVCo certified as a card present transaction equivalent to chip & pin, NOT paywave.

    The difference with ApplePay , is that the transaction is tokenised, and the POS system itself can be compromised, and the risk you are exposed to at most, is that transaction (and even then only for a narrow time window). 

    NFC tap and go systems are not tokenised, and are vulnerable to replay attacks or a compromised reader  (where each attempt is capped at AUS $100 per transaction, with an aggregate up to your daily limit). Such attacks have happened in Australia.

    On iOS, even IF your phone was compromised , it does not contain your card details.

    the banks want to a) implement their own systems to bypass Apple's fees
    b) want to preserve their investment in their existing systems (which are domestically developed and are to the typical poor quality standard you'd expect eg a few years ago when we evaluated the banking Apps from the big 4 for use on company owned devices (we explicitly whitelist App Store Apps) , and they all failed our baseline requirements , some of them at rookie mistake level.

    I'm pretty much convinced the banks security concept  is framed around fraud management and loss prevention, rather than placing the end users' privacy & security front and centre.
    edited August 2016 lolliverfrantisekpscooter63waverboynolamacguybadmonk
  • Reply 33 of 43
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 21,238member
    saltyzip said:
    It's a pure negotiation tactic over fees which I guess is why android pay isn't referenced in this article. Apple want to cream 15c for every $100 worth of transactions, whereas Google don't charge.

    https://www.android.com/intl/en_au/pay-supported-networks/

    That's because Google get's its payday from monetizing the usage data of the dumb shleps foolish enough to still be using that piece of shit OS...
    Apple too will unlikely be able to charge a transaction fee when their existing contracts with banks and processors come up for renewal. Everyone is now on the same mobile payment standard, one established by VISA, whose rules prohibit the payment of interchange fees to the the likes of Apple pay, Android Pay, Samsung Pay, etc. 

    As for security of your individual transactions both Apple (Apple Pay) and Google (Android Pay) handle them in the same way AFAIK. If you happen to know differently please post the evidence. I'm always open to learning something new. 
    edited August 2016
  • Reply 34 of 43
    radarthekatradarthekat Posts: 3,146moderator
    cnocbui said:
    I have been using Australian banks for decades.  I have never had an issue with their integrity or security.  They were doing security when Tim Cook was still in nappies.

    Who do Apple trust to store their Billions?  Do they have their own vaults somewhere or do they run their own bank or do they actually trust banks?  It's pretty illogical to say you don't trust banks with security and that you only trust Apple with it when Apple Pay relies entirely on banks and the infrastructure they developed, provide and maintain.

    Oh yes, and accusing Australian Banks of greed and mentioning Apple in the same sentence as if they aren't, is hilarious.

    Tap & Pay allows you to use your compatible smartphone and the CommBank app to make contactless purchases in store. Simply tap your phone on any contactless terminal the next time you are shopping+.

    Tap & Pay is available using your compatible Android phone and the CommBank app. You can link Tap & Pay to your transaction account or credit card so you can make purchases at any contactless terminal using just your phone – even overseas.

    Compatibility:
    Tap & Pay is available on compatible devices running Android 4.4 (KitKat) or above, with inbuilt NFC enabled.

    So where are the security breaches?  It's an NFC chip, a short range radio.  Do iPhone users not trust banks with security and communications to the point they don't access their bank accounts or do other banking tasks over wifi and cellular connections?   There is no logic going on here beyond Apple good, everyone else bad.



    First, you forgot to speak to privacy.

     Second, which would you rather

     (a) The world's leading mobile device technology company that has shown a strong hand on data security and user privacy and that controls the entire hardware/software stack develop a secure and private payment solution?

     (b) Every financial firm has their I.T. Staff roll their own payment solution, with an incentive to provide security, but not much incentive to keep transaction details completely private to their users, so that even the bank doesn't know what you purchased?
    edited August 2016 lolliver
  • Reply 35 of 43
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 21,238member
    saltyzip said:
    It's a pure negotiation tactic over fees which I guess is why android pay isn't referenced in this article. Apple want to cream 15c for every $100 worth of transactions, whereas Google don't charge.

    https://www.android.com/intl/en_au/pay-supported-networks/
    Depends on what is meant by "charge." I'd rather be charged up front for something instead of having my personal data sold to the highest bidder for the offerer of a "free" service to make their profit. 
    We actually agree. It's a good thing for users that neither Apple nor Google does that, huh?

    Some companies and agencies actually do collect money in exchange for selling your personal and identifiable information. You should try to avoid them: Credit Bureaus, pharmacies, State Drivers' License divisions. . .
    Are you truly concerned? Then be an activist and write the FTC for starters. Complaining about imaginary stuff won't get you anywhere if you are honestly concerned about "your privacy" and not simply making misleading insinuations for other purposes (AKA, FUD). There's real data thieves out there making money from selling everything they know about you and their appetites are insatiable.  Apple, Google and Facebook are companies that do not sell your personal information,  nor any user information at all at least where Apple and Google are concerned. I'd have to look into Facebook more but I would guess they don't either. 
    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/data-brokers-selling-personal-information-60-minutes/
    edited August 2016
  • Reply 36 of 43
    ksecksec Posts: 1,567member
    jkichline said:
    Good luck with that, Australia. Apple would sooner become a bank and put you all out of business before it bows to an anti-privacy and insecure solution.

    This actually got me thinking a bit. When was the last time i had to go to a branch to do something. apart from ATM. 

  • Reply 37 of 43
    cnocbuicnocbui Posts: 3,613member
    uroshnor said:
    cnocbui said:
    I have been using Australian banks for decades.  I have never had an issue with their integrity or security.  They were doing security when Tim Cook was still in nappies.

    Who do Apple trust to store their Billions?  Do they have their own vaults somewhere or do they run their own bank or do they actually trust banks?  It's pretty illogical to say you don't trust banks with security and that you only trust Apple with it when Apple Pay relies entirely on banks and the infrastructure they developed, provide and maintain.

    Oh yes, and accusing Australian Banks of greed and mentioning Apple in the same sentence as if they aren't, is hilarious.

    Tap & Pay allows you to use your compatible smartphone and the CommBank app to make contactless purchases in store. Simply tap your phone on any contactless terminal the next time you are shopping+.

    Tap & Pay is available using your compatible Android phone and the CommBank app. You can link Tap & Pay to your transaction account or credit card so you can make purchases at any contactless terminal using just your phone – even overseas.

    Compatibility:
    Tap & Pay is available on compatible devices running Android 4.4 (KitKat) or above, with inbuilt NFC enabled.

    So where are the security breaches?  It's an NFC chip, a short range radio.  Do iPhone users not trust banks with security and communications to the point they don't access their bank accounts or do other banking tasks over wifi and cellular connections?   There is no logic going on here beyond Apple good, everyone else bad.



    ApplePay is EMVCo certified as a card present transaction equivalent to chip & pin, NOT paywave.

    The difference with ApplePay , is that the transaction is tokenised, and the POS system itself can be compromised, and the risk you are exposed to at most, is that transaction (and even then only for a narrow time window). 

    NFC tap and go systems are not tokenised, and are vulnerable to replay attacks or a compromised reader  (where each attempt is capped at AUS $100 per transaction, with an aggregate up to your daily limit). Such attacks have happened in Australia.

    On iOS, even IF your phone was compromised , it does not contain your card details.

    the banks want to a) implement their own systems to bypass Apple's fees
    b) want to preserve their investment in their existing systems (which are domestically developed and are to the typical poor quality standard you'd expect eg a few years ago when we evaluated the banking Apps from the big 4 for use on company owned devices (we explicitly whitelist App Store Apps) , and they all failed our baseline requirements , some of them at rookie mistake level.

    I'm pretty much convinced the banks security concept  is framed around fraud management and loss prevention, rather than placing the end users' privacy & security front and centre.
    What you have said appears to be completely untrue:

    Hamish Barwick (Computerworld) 25 January, 2016 08:58

    National Australia Bank (NAB) has launched a mobile payment service called NAB Pay which will allow customers to use their Android phone to pay for items.

    Customers with an Android device and a NAB Visa debit card can start using the service from today.

    The bank will be the first in Australia to use the Visa token service said NAB executive general manager for consumer lending, Angus Gilfillan, said

    Tokenisation replaces a customer’s credit card number with a digital token that can be used for digital payments, without revealing account information.

    “Tokenisation improves protection for customers because physical card details are never used in the payments process, reducing the risk of fraud,” Gilfillan said.

    http://www.computerworld.com.au/article/592705/nab-unveils-android-mobile-payment-service/

    CBA offers contactless payments on all Android mobiles

    For CBA, the payments are still being made via MasterCard, but on CBA's mobile banking app, which so far has 3.2 million registered users and has been used to make more than $100 billion in transactions since late 2013.


    Both use so-called host card emulation, which puts a virtual credit card number onto the phone, allows the software to communicate with the contactless reader on the phone and stores customer data in the cloud rather than on the phone.

    CBA used a different technology for Samsung phones where the authentication details were stored on the phone.

    It is also one of the first uses of MasterCard's new "tokenisation" security features which creates a single use 16-digit number based on the customers credit card. Several of these are stored on the device at any one time. Even if the token is hacked, it cannot be used on another device such as on a desktop.


    http://www.smh.com.au/business/banking-and-finance/cba-offers-contactless-payments-on-all-android-mobiles-20150311-140v6m.html

    Why should the banks pay a third of their fees to Apple?  They have spent a lot of money on the infrastructure that makes Apple Pay even possible.  Apple have paid not a cent other than to develop Apple Pay as a feature of their ecosystem to enhance sales of their hardware.

    I am a shareholder in a few Australian banks.  Explain why my banks should pay my money to Apple and not to me.  I have suggested this before:  I would be perfectly happy if the banks passed on the fees to Apple Pay users so they are the ones paying Apple.  Just so long as I am not being asked to subsidise them.





  • Reply 38 of 43
    cnocbuicnocbui Posts: 3,613member
    cnocbui said:
    I have been using Australian banks for decades.  I have never had an issue with their integrity or security.  They were doing security when Tim Cook was still in nappies.

    Who do Apple trust to store their Billions?  Do they have their own vaults somewhere or do they run their own bank or do they actually trust banks?  It's pretty illogical to say you don't trust banks with security and that you only trust Apple with it when Apple Pay relies entirely on banks and the infrastructure they developed, provide and maintain.

    Oh yes, and accusing Australian Banks of greed and mentioning Apple in the same sentence as if they aren't, is hilarious.

    Tap & Pay allows you to use your compatible smartphone and the CommBank app to make contactless purchases in store. Simply tap your phone on any contactless terminal the next time you are shopping+.

    Tap & Pay is available using your compatible Android phone and the CommBank app. You can link Tap & Pay to your transaction account or credit card so you can make purchases at any contactless terminal using just your phone – even overseas.

    Compatibility:
    Tap & Pay is available on compatible devices running Android 4.4 (KitKat) or above, with inbuilt NFC enabled.

    So where are the security breaches?  It's an NFC chip, a short range radio.  Do iPhone users not trust banks with security and communications to the point they don't access their bank accounts or do other banking tasks over wifi and cellular connections?   There is no logic going on here beyond Apple good, everyone else bad.



    First, you forgot to speak to privacy.

     Second, which would you rather

     (a) The world's leading mobile device technology company that has shown a strong hand on data security and user privacy and that controls the entire hardware/software stack develop a secure and private payment solution?

     (b) Every financial firm has their I.T. Staff roll their own payment solution, with an incentive to provide security, but not much incentive to keep transaction details completely private to their users, so that even the bank doesn't know what you purchased?
    What privacy?  I have used Australian banking services since I was 10.  I am not aware of having my privacy compromised by an Australian bank in the several decades since then.  Are you suggesting credit card companies and banks are not aware of who you have paid or how much?  How would you go about questioning a transaction and getting a refund?  Use Apple Pay in Australia with your ANZ card to make a large donation to ISIS and you will soon find how much privacy you have.

    You don't get it.  You are asserting that Apple provide a solution that is more secure than the banks themselves could provide, though that is just a belief you have no way of proving.

    Given that banks have been doing financial security before anyone reading this was born, I do not believe that to be the case.  If it is the case, the difference would by minuscule in practical terms.   Lets us say NAB, Westpac and CBA all provided their own banking app on an iPhone.  You wouldn't have to use them, you could still choose Apple PAY if you preferred, but let us say they offer you an incentive and you chose to use the bank's app.  Something goes wrong and you are subject to a fraud event for $3,000.  How much would you be out-of-pocket?  Not one cent, is the correct answer.  If any of the bank's apps proved to have a security flaw that was exploited, the banks and their shareholders would be the ones to wear the loss, not the customers.

    Once again, I have been dealing with Australian banks for decades and doubt my transaction details have ever been compromised or been insecure.  I don't get why this privacy thing has suddenly become a must-have all of a sudden after decades of using credit cards.

    People are asserting that banks are fundamentally less secure than Apple.  What a complete load of manure.  I have been dealing with banks with sums of money orders of magnitude greater than anything you are going to put through Apple Pay and have never suffered a loss through a lack of bank security.  This is really the stupidest load of FUD you could imagine.
    singularity
  • Reply 39 of 43
    nolamacguynolamacguy Posts: 4,758member
    cnocbui said:
    uroshnor said:
    cnocbui said:
    I have been using Australian banks for decades.  I have never had an issue with their integrity or security.  They were doing security when Tim Cook was still in nappies.

    Who do Apple trust to store their Billions?  Do they have their own vaults somewhere or do they run their own bank or do they actually trust banks?  It's pretty illogical to say you don't trust banks with security and that you only trust Apple with it when Apple Pay relies entirely on banks and the infrastructure they developed, provide and maintain.

    Oh yes, and accusing Australian Banks of greed and mentioning Apple in the same sentence as if they aren't, is hilarious.

    Tap & Pay allows you to use your compatible smartphone and the CommBank app to make contactless purchases in store. Simply tap your phone on any contactless terminal the next time you are shopping+.

    Tap & Pay is available using your compatible Android phone and the CommBank app. You can link Tap & Pay to your transaction account or credit card so you can make purchases at any contactless terminal using just your phone – even overseas.

    Compatibility:
    Tap & Pay is available on compatible devices running Android 4.4 (KitKat) or above, with inbuilt NFC enabled.

    So where are the security breaches?  It's an NFC chip, a short range radio.  Do iPhone users not trust banks with security and communications to the point they don't access their bank accounts or do other banking tasks over wifi and cellular connections?   There is no logic going on here beyond Apple good, everyone else bad.



    ApplePay is EMVCo certified as a card present transaction equivalent to chip & pin, NOT paywave.

    The difference with ApplePay , is that the transaction is tokenised, and the POS system itself can be compromised, and the risk you are exposed to at most, is that transaction (and even then only for a narrow time window). 

    NFC tap and go systems are not tokenised, and are vulnerable to replay attacks or a compromised reader  (where each attempt is capped at AUS $100 per transaction, with an aggregate up to your daily limit). Such attacks have happened in Australia.

    On iOS, even IF your phone was compromised , it does not contain your card details.

    the banks want to a) implement their own systems to bypass Apple's fees
    b) want to preserve their investment in their existing systems (which are domestically developed and are to the typical poor quality standard you'd expect eg a few years ago when we evaluated the banking Apps from the big 4 for use on company owned devices (we explicitly whitelist App Store Apps) , and they all failed our baseline requirements , some of them at rookie mistake level.

    I'm pretty much convinced the banks security concept  is framed around fraud management and loss prevention, rather than placing the end users' privacy & security front and centre.
    Why should the banks pay a third of their fees to Apple?  They have spent a lot of money on the infrastructure that makes Apple Pay even possible.  Apple have paid not a cent other than to develop Apple Pay as a feature of their ecosystem to enhance sales of their hardware.

    I am a shareholder in a few Australian banks.  Explain why my banks should pay my money to Apple and not to me.  I have suggested this before:  I would be perfectly happy if the banks passed on the fees to Apple Pay users so they are the ones paying Apple.  Just so long as I am not being asked to subsidise them.
    the banks pay because it's they who are spared the high costs of fraud detection & prevention after they implement AP. that's their cost spared. which is why it would be insane to pass that cost off to the bank's customer. I'd drop banks immediately and switch to one who didn't try to scam me. 
    edited August 2016 lolliverwilliamlondonstompy
  • Reply 40 of 43
    steveausteveau Posts: 252member
    macxpress said:
    I guess if I were Apple, I'd just say fuck Australia! Sorry to those who live there and can't use it, but if banks and retailers want to be dipshits then I guess Apple has no choice. 
    You can use Apple Pay in Australia, you just need an ANZ Bank or Amex credit card. It is the very large move to ANZ from the other three big banks, motivated by Apple Pay, that is causing them to unite in this action. Apple will fight because if the three big banks and their 'capitalist running dogs' (yea! I have always wanted to use that phrase in a post!) succeed it will provide precedent in other jurisdictions, particularly those based on the English legal system (e.g. England, Canada, India, NZ).
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