EU tax investigation concludes, Apple hammered with $14.5 billion bill

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  • Reply 41 of 106
    croprcropr Posts: 1,078member
    sog35 said:
    The EU still refuses to state what law Apple broke.

    All they are saying is Apple paid a too low effective tax rate. That is totally ridiculous. Any other company could have used the same provisions Apple used to lower their effective tax rate. 

    This ruling is so ridiculous its obvious it will be thrown out. 

    Ireland has the right to charge what ever tax rate they wish. They also have the right to decide on the other If all conpfiner points of tax law. This decision is saying Ireland does not have the right. This decision is saying the EU can swoop in 10 years after the fact and change Ireland's soverign tax laws if they feel it goes against their opinion of matters. In other words the opinion of a few beaucrates in the EU is worth more than the entire citizenship of Ireland. Crazy.
    It is Ireland that broke the law, not Apple. Ireland can indeed decide what the corporate tax rate is in Ireland, but Ireland cannot grant Apple a special regime so Apple pays much less than the 12.5% the other companies pay.  This special regime is considered as illegal state aid, that must be paid back
    singularitycrowleycnocbui
  • Reply 42 of 106
    sog35 said:
    cnocbui said:
    sog35 said:
    The EU still refuses to state what law Apple broke.

    All they are saying is Apple paid a too low effective tax rate. That is totally ridiculous. Any other company could have used the same provisions Apple used to lower their effective tax rate. 

    This ruling is so ridiculous its obvious it will be thrown out. 

    Ireland has the right to charge what ever tax rate they wish. They also have the right to decide on the other finer points of tax law. This decision is saying Ireland does not have the right. This decision is saying the EU can swoop in 10 years after the fact and change Ireland's soverign tax laws if they feel it goes against their opinion of matters. In other words the opinion of a few beaucrates in the EU is worth more than the entire citizenship of Ireland. Crazy.
    Shut up.  I know that I have personally explained this to you several times.  You are just ignoring reality as it would give you less to be indignant about and would deflate your hissy fits.  You want Apple to be the victim when they aren't.
    State the law that Apple broke.
    You still have not.
    You are just saying general things like "oh they paid too little tax". 
    Paying too little tax is not a LAW.

    Show me the Irish law that Apple broke.

    You won't be able too. Because even the EU says nothing about what law Apple broke.
    tax rulings issued by Ireland endorsed an artificial allocation of Apple Sales International and Apple Operations Europe's sales profits to their "head offices", where they were not taxed. As a result, the tax rulings enabled Apple to pay substantially less tax than other companies, which is illegal under EU state aid rules.

    From the summary. which I linked earlier in the thread. It does contain difficult words but try to comprehend. The rule they have broken is under EU law and thus the agreements are invalid (pending any appeals).
    Except other companies with a corporate structure similar to Apple could also take advantage of the Irish tax ruling.  The EU judgment says nothing about the ruling being specific to Apple, it is objecting to the ruling itself, whoever might take advantage of it.  Essentially the EU is trying to use large companies like Apple as test cases to set a precedent about tax laws/rulings it doesn't like.
    asdasdhlee1169
  • Reply 43 of 106
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,685member
    alexmac said:
    sog35 said:
    Ireland has the right to charge any tax rate it wishes. 
    Ireland has the right to make certain corporations exempt from taxes. (exa. hospitals, foreign corps and charity organizations)
    Ireland has the right to lower taxable profits for certain products or services. (exa. software products)

    These are the rights of a SOVEREIGN STATE.

    The EU has no right to decide what kind of tax policy Ireland uses. 
    The only enforcement power the EU has is if a specific company can break Irish tax laws while other companies can't. 
    Apple has not broken a SINGLE IRISH TAX LAW. That means any other company could have done the EXACT same things Apple had done and achieve the same lower tax rate.

    This decision by the EU is saying that Ireland no longer has the SOVEREIGN right to decide what taxes they can charge.  This is madness. The EU is and was never suppose to be the ULTIMATE TAXING AUTHORITY of Europe. Its absolutely ridiculous. 

    A big BS!  As a member of EU HAS TO FOLLOW THE EUROPEAN RULES!  If you don't like it LEAVE EUROPE!  

    I am european when it is good for me but for the rest I do what I want. Simple. BREXIT!
    There are no European rules on corporate tax, that's up to the national sovereign. The EU is using a law designed to stop illegal state aid (which means state aid which prefers certain companies rather than others within the same jurisdiction*) but has failed to prove any deal. In other words other companies can use this same mechanism. And some do. The EU is investigating them. This is a clearly an infringment on Irelands sovereignty and and exercise in big country bullying. 

    * except for big countries where you can in fact aid fiat, aerospace or the euro fighter etc. 
    mike1hlee1169
  • Reply 44 of 106
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 23,399member
    sog35 said:
    alexmac said:
    sog35 said:
    Ireland has the right to charge any tax rate it wishes. 
    Ireland has the right to make certain corporations exempt from taxes. (exa. hospitals, foreign corps and charity organizations)
    Ireland has the right to lower taxable profits for certain products or services. (exa. software products)

    These are the rights of a SOVEREIGN STATE.

    The EU has no right to decide what kind of tax policy Ireland uses. 
    The only enforcement power the EU has is if a specific company can break Irish tax laws while other companies can't. 
    Apple has not broken a SINGLE IRISH TAX LAW. That means any other company could have done the EXACT same things Apple had done and achieve the same lower tax rate.

    This decision by the EU is saying that Ireland no longer has the SOVEREIGN right to decide what taxes they can charge.  This is madness. The EU is and was never suppose to be the ULTIMATE TAXING AUTHORITY of Europe. Its absolutely ridiculous. 

    A big BS!  As a member of EU HAS TO FOLLOW THE EUROPEAN RULES!  If you don't like it LEAVE EUROPE!  

    I am european when it is good for me but for the rest I do what I want. Simple. BREXIT!

    Sorry buddy but you are wrong.

    The EU has no right to tell SOVEREIGN STATES what tax rate they need to charge.
    ...which is not what this is about. Ireland's 12.5% corporate tax-rate is safe. This is about selectively advising a company they will not have to pay any taxes, ITTT. The real experts in tax law and sovereignty will argue about this in due time if there's disagreement filed (and there will be). I don't believe they will consider either you or me one of those experts. 
    edited August 2016 crowleysingularity
  • Reply 45 of 106
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,685member
    sog35 said:
    cnocbui said:
    sog35 said:
    The EU still refuses to state what law Apple broke.

    All they are saying is Apple paid a too low effective tax rate. That is totally ridiculous. Any other company could have used the same provisions Apple used to lower their effective tax rate. 

    This ruling is so ridiculous its obvious it will be thrown out. 

    Ireland has the right to charge what ever tax rate they wish. They also have the right to decide on the other finer points of tax law. This decision is saying Ireland does not have the right. This decision is saying the EU can swoop in 10 years after the fact and change Ireland's soverign tax laws if they feel it goes against their opinion of matters. In other words the opinion of a few beaucrates in the EU is worth more than the entire citizenship of Ireland. Crazy.
    Shut up.  I know that I have personally explained this to you several times.  You are just ignoring reality as it would give you less to be indignant about and would deflate your hissy fits.  You want Apple to be the victim when they aren't.
    State the law that Apple broke.
    You still have not.
    You are just saying general things like "oh they paid too little tax". 
    Paying too little tax is not a LAW.

    Show me the Irish law that Apple broke.

    You won't be able too. Because even the EU says nothing about what law Apple broke.
    tax rulings issued by Ireland endorsed an artificial allocation of Apple Sales International and Apple Operations Europe's sales profits to their "head offices", where they were not taxed. As a result, the tax rulings enabled Apple to pay substantially less tax than other companies, which is illegal under EU state aid rules.

    From the summary. which I linked earlier in the thread. It does contain difficult words but try to comprehend. The rule they have broken is under EU law and thus the agreements are invalid (pending any appeals).
    There is nothing in that that other companies couldn't have availed of, hence no obvious state aid. 

    (The moderation here is weird. Some of my posts are pending moderation, some directly posted. )
  • Reply 46 of 106
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,685member
    sog35 said:
    Ireland has the right to charge any tax rate it wishes. 
    Ireland has the right to make certain corporations exempt from taxes. (exa. hospitals, foreign corps and charity organizations)
    Ireland has the right to lower taxable profits for certain products or services. (exa. software products)

    These are the rights of a SOVEREIGN STATE.

    The EU has no right to decide what kind of tax policy Ireland uses. 
    The only enforcement power the EU has is if a specific company can break Irish tax laws while other companies can't. 
    Apple has not broken a SINGLE IRISH TAX LAW. That means any other company could have done the EXACT same things Apple had done and achieve the same lower tax rate.

    This decision by the EU is saying that Ireland no longer has the SOVEREIGN right to decide what taxes they can charge.  This is madness. The EU is and was never suppose to be the ULTIMATE TAXING AUTHORITY of Europe. Its absolutely ridiculous. 

    Stop showing your ignorance about EU law. Ireland can set any tax rate it likes but can't set a level by agreement with a single company that discriminates against other companies.
    It didn't. Other companies can use the structure that Apple used. The EU is investigating some of them. 
  • Reply 47 of 106
    Time for Irexit.
  • Reply 48 of 106
    evilutionevilution Posts: 1,398member
    gatorguy said:
    Do you think their citizen's will too?  There's certainly little to no benefit for them when a wealthy corporation is permitted to completely avoid taxation while they themselves are not. The Irish politicians that choose to get involved will be walking a fine line. 
    Seeing that Apple created a lot of jobs in Ireland, I dare say they'll agree.

    urahara
  • Reply 49 of 106
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 23,399member
    sog35 said:
    FACT:  Any other company headquartered in Ireland could have used the same tax strategy as Apple.

    If someone can dispute this then the EU has a case and Apple should pay the $14 billion.

    FACT: They could not. Being "stateless for tax purposes" also required a foreign corporate structure, in this case Apple executives here in the US, as "managers" among a few other things. Being "any company headquartered in Ireland" only entitles you to a 12.5% corporate tax rate on your Irish profits. Zero requires just a tad more than that. 
    singularity
  • Reply 50 of 106
    singularitysingularity Posts: 1,328member
    sog35 said:
    FACT:  Any other company headquartered in Ireland could have used the same tax strategy as Apple.

    If someone can dispute this then the EU has a case and Apple should pay the $14 billion.

    But Tim Cook was 100% clear that Apple was not given a special deal:  "The opinion issued on August 30th alleges that Ireland gave Apple a special deal on our taxes. This claim has no basis in fact or in law. We never asked for, nor did we receive, any special deals." Tim Cook


    Yup any company headquartered in Ireland could have got the same deal if they had the same agreement with the Irish tax authority. Which were secret and other companies were not privy to.

  • Reply 51 of 106
    latifbplatifbp Posts: 544member
    gatorguy said:
    latifbp said:
    gatorguy said:
    latifbp said:
    Name one competitor who did not get the same tax 
    You're arguing with the wrong entity. Message your outrage over this to the EU Commission. 
    The allegation is that Apple was acting anti-competitively. There'd have to be competition that got stifled in order for that to be true. Not one person can identify any corporation that was stifled in their competition against Apple. We now know that Apple had this tax rate since 1980 and that there was no request by Apple and no 'deal' brokered.
    No sir, the current tax avoidance structure was put in place much more recently wasn't it? Apple has been able to pay relatively few taxes on their Irish manufacturing activities since early in the '80's, that is true. The two new Irish corporations (one of which exists in name and bank accounts only, no employees) used for mitigating taxes from other countries and regions began around the time of the iPhone release. They pay taxes to no one, claiming no country or region has the authority to tax them. The EU Commission has a difference of opinion with them. 
    So Tim Cook is lying in a very public statement when a new legal front is opening up. Makes zero sense.
  • Reply 52 of 106
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,685member
    Sog35 is right. There's nothing stopping other companies domiciled in Ireland  using the same law. If the EU wishes to set a minimum corporate tax rate for its sovereign nations, like it does with VAT, then it should do it. It's clearly not proven any sweet heart deal here, it even admits the tax ruling is legal. It then explains Apples use of a loophole but doesn't even bother to prove that the loophole was exclusive, it hopes the reader will jump to the conclusion that it is, however if Apple can set up these "home offices" under Irish law without tax jurisdiction so can other companies. And in fact they do. 


    The law on (real) state aid is clearly inconsistently applied as well. There are clear subsidies to many companies throughout Europe, particularly in the defence sector and the EU itself bullied small countries into bailing out banks to stop the propagation of defaults during the last bust. Ireland was forced to offer state aid to Allied Irish Banks, but the bank of Ireland didn't need any. Sounds like state aid to me. 
    latifbphlee1169h2p
  • Reply 53 of 106
    singularitysingularity Posts: 1,328member
    sog35 said:
    sog35 said:
    FACT:  Any other company headquartered in Ireland could have used the same tax strategy as Apple.

    If someone can dispute this then the EU has a case and Apple should pay the $14 billion.

    But Tim Cook was 100% clear that Apple was not given a special deal:  "The opinion issued on August 30th alleges that Ireland gave Apple a special deal on our taxes. This claim has no basis in fact or in law. We never asked for, nor did we receive, any special deals." Tim Cook


    Yup any company headquartered in Ireland could have got the same deal if they had the same agreement with the Irish tax authority. Which were secret and other companies were not privy to.

    You are wrong. There was no secret deal with Apple. Tim Cook said it himself.

    "The opinion issued on August 30th alleges that Ireland gave Apple a special deal on our taxes. This claim has no basis in fact or in law. We never asked for, nor did we receive, any special deals." Tim Cook

    Apple was following WELL ESTABLISH IRISH TAX RULES that does not levy taxes on income booked in subsidiaries of Irish companies that are outside the state. Those are LAWS that are clear and were available to any corp.
    As it stands pending all the appeals those tax rules aren't allowed. The agreements were invalid and are null and void. Thus the ruling.
  • Reply 54 of 106
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,685member
    gatorguy said:
    sog35 said:
    FACT:  Any other company headquartered in Ireland could have used the same tax strategy as Apple.

    If someone can dispute this then the EU has a case and Apple should pay the $14 billion.

    FACT: They could not. Being "stateless for tax purposes" also required a foreign corporate structure, in this case Apple executives here in the US, as "managers" among a few other things. Being "any company headquartered in Ireland" only entitles you to a 12.5% corporate tax rate on your Irish profits. Zero requires just a tad more than that. 
    Nothing stopping any other American company then. Or an Irish company with American management. Etc. 
    latifbp
  • Reply 55 of 106
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 23,399member
    sog35 said:
    gatorguy said:
    sog35 said:
    FACT:  Any other company headquartered in Ireland could have used the same tax strategy as Apple.

    If someone can dispute this then the EU has a case and Apple should pay the $14 billion.

    FACT: They could not. Being "stateless for tax purposes" also required a foreign corporate structure, in this case Apple executives here in the US, as "managers" among a few other things. Being "any company headquartered in Ireland" only entitles you to a 12.5% corporate tax rate on your Irish profits. Zero requires just a tad more than that. 
    So you agree any foreign corporation doing business in Ireland could take advantage of the same low tax rate as Apple?


    Reading for understanding is not one of your strengths apparently? Putting goalposts on wheels seems more to your liking tho. 
    edited August 2016 singularity
  • Reply 56 of 106
    latifbplatifbp Posts: 544member
    sog35 said:
    cnocbui said:
    Well I said it would be billions rather than SOG's ludicrous millions.

    I hope the final outcome is that Apple eventually have to cough up.  They have over $200 Billion in the bank because they are worlds biggest and most effective tax avoider.  I hope this is just the start of all the other multinational tax dodgers finally getting what's coming to them.

    Of course the situation Apple finds itself in is all the fault of the US government, not Ireland or the EU as it is US tax legislation that allows US companies to indefinitely defer tax repatriation while pretending to their host countries their tax is payable in the US.
    Looks like you made a good estimation of how ridiculously stupid and incompetent the EU is.
    Congrats you called it right.

    But Apple won't pay even close to the $14 billion. 

    And you are wrong about Apple being the worlds biggest and most effective tax avoider. Microsoft, Google, and a ton of other mega tech companies pay a lower effective tax rate than Apple. 
    It's GE that actually avoids taxes. They not only pay $0 in taxes but take a $15+ billion tax rebate every year. Apple pays taxes. Apple gives good benefits and the best paid parental leave policy out of every company.
    hlee1169badmonk
  • Reply 57 of 106
    singularitysingularity Posts: 1,328member
    sog35 said:
    sog35 said:
    sog35 said:
    FACT:  Any other company headquartered in Ireland could have used the same tax strategy as Apple.

    If someone can dispute this then the EU has a case and Apple should pay the $14 billion.

    But Tim Cook was 100% clear that Apple was not given a special deal:  "The opinion issued on August 30th alleges that Ireland gave Apple a special deal on our taxes. This claim has no basis in fact or in law. We never asked for, nor did we receive, any special deals." Tim Cook


    Yup any company headquartered in Ireland could have got the same deal if they had the same agreement with the Irish tax authority. Which were secret and other companies were not privy to.

    You are wrong. There was no secret deal with Apple. Tim Cook said it himself.

    "The opinion issued on August 30th alleges that Ireland gave Apple a special deal on our taxes. This claim has no basis in fact or in law. We never asked for, nor did we receive, any special deals." Tim Cook

    Apple was following WELL ESTABLISH IRISH TAX RULES that does not levy taxes on income booked in subsidiaries of Irish companies that are outside the state. Those are LAWS that are clear and were available to any corp.
    As it stands pending all the appeals those tax rules aren't allowed. The agreements were invalid and are null and void. Thus the ruling.
    LOL. No. The EU has no right to over rule Irish tax law.  

    The issue isn't if the EU thinks an Irish tax law is unfair. They have no right to decide that.

    The EU can only deterimine that a specific corporation got 'special' treatment aka state aid.

    Its painfully obvious that Apple did not get special treatment because any other foreign corporation could have done the EXACT SAME THING, following the EXACT same tax rules.

    Notice that the EU does not point to any specific tax law that Apple broke. They simply state they don't agree with foreign subsidies not paying the 12% tax and say that Apple's effective tax rate is too low.
    Or they could be pointing at the two deals they had with the tax authorities and the structure that went beyond the accepted boundaries for tax minimisation according to the OECD that allowed them to have an effective tax rate that is quite low in anyone's books.
  • Reply 58 of 106
    latifbplatifbp Posts: 544member
    sog35 said:
    Ireland has the right to charge any tax rate it wishes. 
    Ireland has the right to make certain corporations exempt from taxes. (exa. hospitals, foreign corps and charity organizations)
    Ireland has the right to lower taxable profits for certain products or services. (exa. software products)

    These are the rights of a SOVEREIGN STATE.

    The EU has no right to decide what kind of tax policy Ireland uses. 
    The only enforcement power the EU has is if a specific company can break Irish tax laws while other companies can't. 
    Apple has not broken a SINGLE IRISH TAX LAW. That means any other company could have done the EXACT same things Apple had done and achieve the same lower tax rate.

    This decision by the EU is saying that Ireland no longer has the SOVEREIGN right to decide what taxes they can charge.  This is madness. The EU is and was never suppose to be the ULTIMATE TAXING AUTHORITY of Europe. Its absolutely ridiculous. 

    Stop showing your ignorance about EU law. Ireland can set any tax rate it likes but can't set a level by agreement with a single company that discriminates against other companies.
    Prove no other companies could have received this
    edited August 2016
  • Reply 59 of 106
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,685member
    sog35 said:
    sog35 said:
    FACT:  Any other company headquartered in Ireland could have used the same tax strategy as Apple.

    If someone can dispute this then the EU has a case and Apple should pay the $14 billion.

    But Tim Cook was 100% clear that Apple was not given a special deal:  "The opinion issued on August 30th alleges that Ireland gave Apple a special deal on our taxes. This claim has no basis in fact or in law. We never asked for, nor did we receive, any special deals." Tim Cook


    Yup any company headquartered in Ireland could have got the same deal if they had the same agreement with the Irish tax authority. Which were secret and other companies were not privy to.

    You are wrong. There was no secret deal with Apple. Tim Cook said it himself.

    "The opinion issued on August 30th alleges that Ireland gave Apple a special deal on our taxes. This claim has no basis in fact or in law. We never asked for, nor did we receive, any special deals." Tim Cook

    Apple was following WELL ESTABLISH IRISH TAX RULES that does not levy taxes on income booked in subsidiaries of Irish companies that are outside the state. Those are LAWS that are clear and were available to any corp.
    As it stands pending all the appeals those tax rules aren't allowed. The agreements were invalid and are null and void. Thus the ruling.
    The EU has no competancy over Irish corporation tax. Their argument relies on the alleged exclusivity of the supposed deal 
    latifbph2p
  • Reply 60 of 106
    sog35 said:
    sog35 said:
    FACT:  Any other company headquartered in Ireland could have used the same tax strategy as Apple.

    If someone can dispute this then the EU has a case and Apple should pay the $14 billion.

    But Tim Cook was 100% clear that Apple was not given a special deal:  "The opinion issued on August 30th alleges that Ireland gave Apple a special deal on our taxes. This claim has no basis in fact or in law. We never asked for, nor did we receive, any special deals." Tim Cook


    Yup any company headquartered in Ireland could have got the same deal if they had the same agreement with the Irish tax authority. Which were secret and other companies were not privy to.

    You are wrong. There was no secret deal with Apple. Tim Cook said it himself.

    "The opinion issued on August 30th alleges that Ireland gave Apple a special deal on our taxes. This claim has no basis in fact or in law. We never asked for, nor did we receive, any special deals." Tim Cook

    Apple was following WELL ESTABLISH IRISH TAX RULES that does not levy taxes on income booked in subsidiaries of Irish companies that are outside the state. Those are LAWS that are clear and were available to any corp.
    As it stands pending all the appeals those tax rules aren't allowed. The agreements were invalid and are null and void. Thus the ruling.
    No, the Irish ruling still stands unless the appeal is rejected.  It is business as usual for Apple and they have already announced that they aren't changing tax information in their corporate guidance and it will be several years before they expect the issue to be resolved.
    latifbp
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