To add some facts to the general slamming of the so called extortion racket. Don't get me wrong - I love Apple products but they have been skirting their responsibilities for a long time like many other multi nationals. I don't like taxes either (I live in France....) but at a certain point we have to say its enough when corporations pay next to nothing for Billions in profits. Have a look at what happend in Ireland:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement
Wear all the Capri pants you want. It doesn't change the actual facts versus the 'facts' as you want them. Apple was almost St bankrupt in the 1990's and this tax rate was already long in place. No advantage. Innovation and good decisions helped Apple succeed. Not the fucking EU.
you need to get over this obsession with capri pants
This is really a non-issue for Apple. Foreign taxes paid are a credit against Apple's US tax liability. Assuming that at some point Apple repatriates its cash to the US, as long as the marginal US tax rate at that time is greater than what the EU is claiming this won't have any impact on Apple's overall tax liability. Apple has never been against repatriating the money, they have been against paying a 35% tax rate when their competitors (Samsung et. al.) get to pay a much lower than the rate. At a 20% rate I'm sure Tim Cook would bring a lot of that cash back to the US.
Otoh, whatever is paid to the EU is tax money that the US won't collect. This is more of a grab by the EU on money that would otherwise end up in the US Treasury. You would think that the US would be a lot more energetic in fighting the EU on this.
The EU is an extortion racket. They've done their job screwing over the smaller countries in Europe (ask Spain and Portugal how the Euro worked out for them) and now they continue to extort money from US companies.
What an absolute disgrace.
Check out how Spain, Portugal, Ireland, the Central european countries fared before entering the EU and look at their situation now. You're in complete denial or a fool if you think they were better off without the EU
To add some facts to the general slamming of the so called extortion racket. Don't get me wrong - I love Apple products but they have been skirting their responsibilities for a long time like many other multi nationals. I don't like taxes either (I live in France....) but at a certain point we have to say its enough when corporations pay next to nothing for Billions in profits. Have a look at what happend in Ireland:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement
Wear all the Capri pants you want. It doesn't change the actual facts versus the 'facts' as you want them. Apple was almost St bankrupt in the 1990's and this tax rate was already long in place. No advantage. Innovation and good decisions helped Apple succeed. Not the fucking EU.
you need to get over this obsession with capri pants
Why do Euro men love them so much?
I don't know but also I don't know any man who wears them.
The EU is an extortion racket. They've done their job screwing over the smaller countries in Europe (ask Spain and Portugal how the Euro worked out for them) and now they continue to extort money from US companies.
What an absolute disgrace.
Check out how Spain, Portugal, Ireland, the Central european countries fared before entering the EU and look at their situation now. You're in complete denial or a fool if you think they were better off without the EU
I've lived in Spain and asked the Spanish personally. Have you?
I do business with them on a daily basis
Interesting point. It was the 'business' people in the UK who advised the general public to vote stay in the EU. And it was the business people the general public told to get bent.
And now the business people are being told that their tax avoidance arrangements can be declared illegal and they can be charged back tax plus interest?
So when the next member state holds a referendum, the vote will be a lot more decisive because both the ordinary folk and the business people will decide to leave.
This is really a non-issue for Apple. Foreign taxes paid are a credit against Apple's US tax liability. Assuming that at some point Apple repatriates its cash to the US, as long as the marginal US tax rate at that time is greater than what the EU is claiming this won't have any impact on Apple's overall tax liability. Apple has never been against repatriating the money, they have been against paying a 35% tax rate when their competitors (Samsung et. al.) get to pay a much lower than the rate. At a 20% rate I'm sure Tim Cook would bring a lot of that cash back to the US.
Otoh, whatever is paid to the EU is tax money that the US won't collect. This is more of a grab by the EU on money that would otherwise end up in the US Treasury. You would think that the US would be a lot more energetic in fighting the EU on this.
Plenty of time for back room negotiations. Apple has the U.S. backing them this time and tremendous political pressure will be brought to bear. “ It will have a profound and harmful effect on investment and job creation in Europe.” No kidding. That’s only one of the leverages Apple can use.
The larger discussion at Apple IMHO should be at what cost? Apple biggest asset is not in the engineering department. It's not in the executive boardroom. It's not sitting in bank vaults. It's Apple's image.
If this is handled in a way that leaves the impression of Apple doing a money grab at any cost there will no doubt be even some long-time dedicated Apple consumers who modify their views on Apple. Then there are those who dislike Apple for whatever reason handled ammunition supporting claims of greed, perhaps increasing the number of "Apple-haters". What will Joe and Minnie think about it? Will the voices be loud enough to make any impact? I wouldn't have a clue, but the possibility of saving a penny to lose a pound should certainly be considered. It could be wiser in the long run just to pay up.
In any event this is going to be a balancing act, and the gymnasts better be really good.
wiser to pay $14 billion rather than risk some apple haters getting their jollies? omg. don't quit your day job, man, leave running majorly successful global corporations to the pros.
There. That's the key to all those who oppose being in the EU: "advantage". The EU prevents one country from screwing over another one to gain an advantage. That's exactly what this case is about; Ireland trying to get more money at the cost of the other EU members. As for Greece, it's in the spot it's in because it mismanaged its human resources, allowing too many people to retire far too early and mooch off the few who continued to work. It dug a hole that the EU is helping it out of; it would be in full-blown depression without the EU. So all of you decrying the EU and cheering for more Brexits, you don't realize the implications of what you're saying. The EU is a *smart* thing to exist and to be a member of. Breaking it up would be a pretty direct analogy to breaking up the U.S.A.; each state would have to fend for itself. All 50 would struggle while the ignorant masses would cheer that each was able to achieve its own "identity". How foolish.
Europe has no law on national corporation taxes. Maybe it should have. What it does have is laws opposing unfair competition within a jurisdiction, which it — to say the least — enforces sporadically, retrospectively and without much due process. It also forced Ireland (and Greece) to bail out banks, so the opposition to sovereign State aid depends on what benefits the big boys of the EU.
The problem with this ruling is that it isn't just attacking a small country in the EU, we see the EU doing that numerous times over the past while, but it's changing the goal posts (again retrospectively) on how ( mostly) US companies are taxed at the cost — eventually — of the IRS which claims all worldwide income tax jurisdiction on US companies. When eventually repatriated.
It's also advised, against all principles of corporate law that Ireland wouldn't get the 13.5Bn if the countries where Apple products were sold taxed Apple's profits in that country.
Any such attempt to tax Apples worldwide income at point of sale (beyond sales taxes and VAT) will clearly lead to a US-EU trade war.
The EU may have bitten off more than it can handle.
To add some facts to the general slamming of the so called extortion racket. Don't get me wrong - I love Apple products but they have been skirting their responsibilities for a long time like many other multi nationals. I don't like taxes either (I live in France....) but at a certain point we have to say its enough when corporations pay next to nothing for Billions in profits. Have a look at what happend in Ireland:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement
Wear all the Capri pants you want. It doesn't change the actual facts versus the 'facts' as you want them. Apple was almost St bankrupt in the 1990's and this tax rate was already long in place. No advantage. Innovation and good decisions helped Apple succeed. Not the fucking EU.
you need to get over this obsession with capri pants
Why do Euro men love them so much?
I don't know but also I don't know any man who wears them.
They're all over the place! Just search it. Tons of hits
How long ago is it since the EU bailed out Eire ? 2008 it was for €68 million. Btw I am British and I voted to stay in the EU. Sorry it was €68 billion.......so without it Eire would have been stuffed...
The EU didn't bail out Ireland (btw it's not called Eire in the English language). It forced Ireland to bail out its banks and then rolled that bailout into a high interest loan to be paid back over generations. Since all Irish banks owed money to German, French and UK banks this tax payer subsidy was a proxy bailout of the European banking system by the Irish tax payer.
Dearest asdasd, Éire is used in English, and to use it shows respect for their heritage. Indeed the government of Éire use this name on their Euro notes and coinage. We don't refer to "the Irish prime minister, we use the correct term "Taoiseach" out of respect of an independent sovereign country.
It is a matter of record that the Euro countries bailed out the Banks of Éire to the tune of €68 billion so that their economy didn't become bankrupt.. The U.K. Government despite not being a euro-currency member contributed €3billion for Éire in 2010 (and €3.5 billion for Portugal in 2011).
perhaps if Éire had collected their corporation taxes, such bailouts would not have been necessary.
Greece, well from the actual documents pertaining to the eurozone rescue plan, it seems that they didn't collect taxes at all !! I commend those documents to you to read.
Sadly, we all will be paying the price of the bankers greed for generations to come, whatever country we live in.
As regards Brexit, it is beginning to dawn just what a problem the uk will have with international trade. The U.K. has zero trade agreements in place, and it is delusional of the Brexiteers to think that the entire world will immediately agree to give tariff free trade just because the uk says so.
Shamefully one uk politician has even said that "our empire" will all want to trade with the U.K. How delusional is that ?
I live in a country that is a member of EU. We love Apple but I think Apple/Ireland should pay what they owe. EU laws for member countries are quite clear and I don't see why Ireland and Apple should be pardoned for that. Apple paid only 0.5 - 1% of taxes while other companies in EU need to pay WWAAAAAAY lot more... Laws in the EU are clear and valid for all EU member countries. In this case EU member countries are not allowed and cannot give any unfair tax conditions to selected companies.
I think Apple/Ireland made lots of profit based on braking that law. Apple is rich as f**ck and I am getting sick when big corporations want more and more while the world goes to hell, rich become richer and middle class is disappearing. We are lucky for strong middle class and all the working-benefits in EU and most of that we have to thank to EU and I would like to keep that... So yes Apple you need to pay what you owe and please keep doing great products.
Apple however didn't receive preferential treatment. Any company who set up shop under similar circumstances received the same treatment. Plain and simple Ireland wanted to attract foreign investment and passed appealing tax laws. Apple along with other companies responded.
Further, Apple's tax rate has been known since the 80s. Explain how it is fair to question it a quarter century later.
Dearest asdasd, Éire is used in English, and to use it shows respect for their heritage. Indeed the government of Éire use this name on their Euro notes and coinage. We don't refer to "the Irish prime minister, we use the correct term "Taoiseach" out of respect of an independent sovereign country.
It is a matter of record that the Euro countries bailed out the Banks of Éire to the tune of €68 billion so that their economy didn't become bankrupt.. The U.K. Government despite not being a euro-currency member contributed €3billion for Éire in 2010 (and €3.5 billion for Portugal in 2011).
perhaps if Éire had collected their corporation taxes, such bailouts would not have been necessary.
Greece, well from the actual documents pertaining to the eurozone rescue plan, it seems that they didn't collect taxes at all !! I commend those documents to you to read.
Sadly, we all will be paying the price of the bankers greed for generations to come, whatever country we live in.
As regards Brexit, it is beginning to dawn just what a problem the uk will have with international trade. The U.K. has zero trade agreements in place, and it is delusional of the Brexiteers to think that the entire world will immediately agree to give tariff free trade just because the uk says so.
Shamefully one uk politician has even said that "our empire" will all want to trade with the U.K. How delusional is that ?
me, I'm leaving the uk
Firstly Eire isn't used in English, not correctly anyhow. It's like saying Roma for Rome. In the English language the name of the country is the Republic of Ireland, or Ireland for short. Ireland is also the name of the island of course but it's clear when the sovereign nation and not the whole island is meant.
Secondly a loan is not a bailout, and that loan was fairly usurious (6% or so). The Irish would have been better to reclassify most of the banks as bad banks, doing a debt to equity swap and handing the useless equity to the bondholders ( ie the European banks) rather than take on a high interest loan that was about 60% of GDP. It's true that Ireland also needed about 20bn in day to day funding but the EU forced the issue by demanding the bank bailout or nothing. Compare with Iceland.
I lived in Ireland (and have family there) at the time so I know the sentiment.
There. That's the key to all those who oppose being in the EU: "advantage". The EU prevents one country from screwing over another one to gain an advantage. That's exactly what this case is about; Ireland trying to get more money at the cost of the other EU members. As for Greece, it's in the spot it's in because it mismanaged its human resources, allowing too many people to retire far too early and mooch off the few who continued to work. It dug a hole that the EU is helping it out of; it would be in full-blown depression without the EU. So all of you decrying the EU and cheering for more Brexits, you don't realize the implications of what you're saying. The EU is a *smart* thing to exist and to be a member of. Breaking it up would be a pretty direct analogy to breaking up the U.S.A.; each state would have to fend for itself. All 50 would struggle while the ignorant masses would cheer that each was able to achieve its own "identity". How foolish.
Europe has no law on national corporation taxes. Maybe it should have. What it does have is laws opposing unfair competition within a jurisdiction, which it — to say the least — enforces sporadically, retrospectively and without much due process. It also forced Ireland (and Greece) to bail out banks, so the opposition to sovereign State aid depends on what benefits the big boys of the EU.
The problem with this ruling is that it isn't just attacking a small country in the EU, we see the EU doing that numerous times over the past while, but it's changing the goal posts (again retrospectively) on how ( mostly) US companies are taxed at the cost — eventually — of the IRS which claims all worldwide income tax jurisdiction on US companies. When eventually repatriated.
It's also advised, against all principles of corporate law that Ireland wouldn't get the 13.5Bn if the countries where Apple products were sold taxed Apple's profits in that country.
Any such attempt to tax Apples worldwide income at point of sale (beyond sales taxes and VAT) will clearly lead to a US-EU trade war.
The EU may have bitten off more than it can handle.
The EU is an extortion racket. They've done their job screwing over the smaller countries in Europe (ask Spain and Portugal how the Euro worked out for them) and now they continue to extort money from US companies.
What an absolute disgrace.
Check out how Spain, Portugal, Ireland, the Central european countries fared before entering the EU and look at their situation now. You're in complete denial or a fool if you think they were better off without the EU
I've lived in Spain and asked the Spanish personally. Have you?
I do business with them on a daily basis
Interesting point. It was the 'business' people in the UK who advised the general public to vote stay in the EU. And it was the business people the general public told to get bent.
And now the business people are being told that their tax avoidance arrangements can be declared illegal and they can be charged back tax plus interest?
So when the next member state holds a referendum, the vote will be a lot more decisive because both the ordinary folk and the business people will decide to leave.
Actually, the EU has shown it's added value in this case.
Individual governments have this tendency to start a race to the tax-bottom.
Guess who pays taxes then? (answer: the ordinary folk)
The EU is an extortion racket. They've done their job screwing over the smaller countries in Europe (ask Spain and Portugal how the Euro worked out for them) and now they continue to extort money from US companies.
What an absolute disgrace.
Check out how Spain, Portugal, Ireland, the Central european countries fared before entering the EU and look at their situation now. You're in complete denial or a fool if you think they were better off without the EU
Oh? Maybe you check out Greece... Totally bankrupt, owing too much to EU and IMF, which they can never pay back. No own currency, so much less tourist (main income) because no currency advantage. And in the end Germany (our schreckliches Merkel) has bought a lot of the last assets of Greece (airports / ports) for a very low price.
I have some relatives in Greece.
Taking huge amounts of loans that you cannot pay back, and spending them irresponsibly - growing state bureaucracy beyond reason, giving 13th salary for Christmas, and in general having very inefficient, slack, unsustainable economy that exists only thanks to those loans, and would crush & burn much earlier otherwise... are not best ways to plan for long term prosperity.
EU offered candies, take for free now, pay later. Greece overindulged. I'm not sure I can blame EU for that.
Plenty of time for back room negotiations. Apple has the U.S. backing them this time and tremendous political pressure will be brought to bear. “ It will have a profound and harmful effect on investment and job creation in Europe.” No kidding. That’s only one of the leverages Apple can use.
The larger discussion at Apple IMHO should be at what cost? Apple biggest asset is not in the engineering department. It's not in the executive boardroom. It's not sitting in bank vaults. It's Apple's image.
If this is handled in a way that leaves the impression of Apple doing a money grab at any cost there will no doubt be even some long-time dedicated Apple consumers who modify their views on Apple. Then there are those who dislike Apple for whatever reason handled ammunition supporting claims of greed, perhaps increasing the number of "Apple-haters". What will Joe and Minnie think about it? Will the voices be loud enough to make any impact? I wouldn't have a clue, but the possibility of saving a penny to lose a pound should certainly be considered. It could be wiser in the long run just to pay up.
In any event this is going to be a balancing act, and the gymnasts better be really good.
wiser to pay $14 billion rather than risk some apple haters getting their jollies? omg. don't quit your day job, man, leave running majorly successful global corporations to the pros.
@nolamacguy, Gosh gee whiz, Philip Elmer DeWitt agrees with me today. I'm in good company.
PED "My take: This deal was Steve Jobs' doing. Tim Cook's job now is to find a way to unwind it. Apple's image as a good citizen of the world is worth more than whatever it's saving in taxes."
Comments
Otoh, whatever is paid to the EU is tax money that the US won't collect. This is more of a grab by the EU on money that would otherwise end up in the US Treasury. You would think that the US would be a lot more energetic in fighting the EU on this.
And now the business people are being told that their tax avoidance arrangements can be declared illegal and they can be charged back tax plus interest?
So when the next member state holds a referendum, the vote will be a lot more decisive because both the ordinary folk and the business people will decide to leave.
The problem with this ruling is that it isn't just attacking a small country in the EU, we see the EU doing that numerous times over the past while, but it's changing the goal posts (again retrospectively) on how ( mostly) US companies are taxed at the cost — eventually — of the IRS which claims all worldwide income tax jurisdiction on US companies. When eventually repatriated.
It's also advised, against all principles of corporate law that Ireland wouldn't get the 13.5Bn if the countries where Apple products were sold taxed Apple's profits in that country.
Any such attempt to tax Apples worldwide income at point of sale (beyond sales taxes and VAT) will clearly lead to a US-EU trade war.
The EU may have bitten off more than it can handle.
https://www.ft.com/content/5f3131a4-a7ca-11e4-8e78-00144feab7de
haha, yes of course they joined the euro. And yes they are better off. Free money.... But at what cost? (Greece will never pay back their loans, the current 1200Mljd Euro financial injection for a 2% inflation is not working (still at 0%) and who profits most of it, right again.)
Please check your own facts before posting such bull.
Éire is used in English, and to use it shows respect for their heritage. Indeed the government of Éire use this name on their Euro notes and coinage. We don't refer to "the Irish prime minister, we use the correct term "Taoiseach" out of respect of an independent sovereign country.
It is a matter of record that the Euro countries bailed out the Banks of Éire to the tune of €68 billion so that their economy didn't become bankrupt.. The U.K. Government despite not being a euro-currency member contributed €3billion for Éire in 2010 (and €3.5 billion for Portugal in 2011).
perhaps if Éire had collected their corporation taxes, such bailouts would not have been necessary.
Greece, well from the actual documents pertaining to the eurozone rescue plan, it seems that they didn't collect taxes at all !! I commend those documents to you to read.
Sadly, we all will be paying the price of the bankers greed for generations to come, whatever country we live in.
As regards Brexit, it is beginning to dawn just what a problem the uk will have with international trade. The U.K. has zero trade agreements in place, and it is delusional of the Brexiteers to think that the entire world will immediately agree to give tariff free trade just because the uk says so.
Shamefully one uk politician has even said that "our empire" will all want to trade with the U.K. How delusional is that ?
me, I'm leaving the uk
Secondly a loan is not a bailout, and that loan was fairly usurious (6% or so). The Irish would have been better to reclassify most of the banks as bad banks, doing a debt to equity swap and handing the useless equity to the bondholders ( ie the European banks) rather than take on a high interest loan that was about 60% of GDP. It's true that Ireland also needed about 20bn in day to day funding but the EU forced the issue by demanding the bank bailout or nothing. Compare with Iceland.
I lived in Ireland (and have family there) at the time so I know the sentiment.
Taking huge amounts of loans that you cannot pay back, and spending them irresponsibly - growing state bureaucracy beyond reason, giving 13th salary for Christmas, and in general having very inefficient, slack, unsustainable economy that exists only thanks to those loans, and would crush & burn much earlier otherwise... are not best ways to plan for long term prosperity.
EU offered candies, take for free now, pay later. Greece overindulged. I'm not sure I can blame EU for that.
Correct me if I'm wrong: how many states & cities in the US are not capable of paying back their loans?
PED
"My take: This deal was Steve Jobs' doing. Tim Cook's job now is to find a way to unwind it. Apple's image as a good citizen of the world is worth more than whatever it's saving in taxes."