Phil Schiller: New MacBook Pro has more orders from Apple than any other pro model ever

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  • Reply 81 of 197
    Apple has opaquely, and with a heavy dose of market-speak, pivoted away from professional workflows.  The MacBook Pro is 'Pro' in name only.  The company is abandoning professionals so it can chase money.  Some have argued that Apple has no idea who the MacBook Pro is for.  I argue they know exactly who it is for: general purpose users with cash to burn.  Apple is abandoning the people who have driven and defined what a Mac is for decades.  The marketing and sales people are in control and they're letting Jonny Ive pursue his fetish obsession with thinness at the expense of performance: https://torusoft.com/blog/preemptive-multi-talking-E22
    sandorwiggindysamoriatoranaga
  • Reply 82 of 197
    paxmanpaxman Posts: 4,603member
    torusoft said:
    Apple has opaquely, and with a heavy dose of market-speak, pivoted away from professional workflows.  The MacBook Pro is 'Pro' in name only.  The company is abandoning professionals so it can chase money.  Some have argued that Apple has no idea who the MacBook Pro is for.  I argue they know exactly who it is for: general purpose users with cash to burn.  Apple is abandoning the people who have driven and defined what a Mac is for decades.  The marketing and sales people are in control and they're letting Jonny Ive pursue his fetish obsession with thinness at the expense of performance: https://torusoft.com/blog/preemptive-multi-talking-E22
    I think your definition of 'pro' is likely too narrow. 
    Solinolamacguy
  • Reply 83 of 197
    I think we'll see a 32GB Macbook Pro next year. In the mean time, the Touch Bar and other new features will get a chance to prove themselves with customers and developers.
    +1

    I think it is great that instead of getting lost down a rabbit hole of bad tradeoffs to hit arbitrary spec milestones, Apple has taken a beat on specs and devoted their efforts to form factor, display & interface this time around.

    (Normal) people don't get super excited about the revolutionary new processor. They get excited about things they can see and touch.

    None of us (myself included) are one of the normals.

    I do try to temper my nerdy fixation with specs and look at Apple's design holistically.

    Holistically, I can see why this MBP has appeal. There are improvements for the (nerdy) mind (GPUs), eye (Wide gamut display), body (reduced size & weight) and touch (touch bar).

    The nerd community's fixation with hardware specs is keeping it from seeing all the improvements.
    nolamacguyadonissmu
  • Reply 84 of 197
    canukstormcanukstorm Posts: 1,953member
    That's not possible. Everyone on twitter, and tech blogs and Apple rumor sites hates these new machines. /s
    You might be being sarcastic but hate is the sentiment that I'm seeing. Not by everyone but by a lot. As others have mentioned, there are even "die hard" Mac users thinking of moving away from Apple. 
  • Reply 85 of 197
    knowitallknowitall Posts: 1,376member
    Phil obviously knows his stuff, and he is mostly right, especially about the direction Apples steers to.
    His message is, I believe, that next iterations will please more customers, and that it is impossible to do it right for everyone.
    He also doesn't dis people - at least not openly - about the comments they make, that could mean he is polite, but maybe also that they are 'kind of right'.

    edited November 2016 dysamoria
  • Reply 86 of 197
    sandorsandor Posts: 523member
    paxman said:
    torusoft said:
    Apple has opaquely, and with a heavy dose of market-speak, pivoted away from professional workflows.  The MacBook Pro is 'Pro' in name only.  The company is abandoning professionals so it can chase money.  Some have argued that Apple has no idea who the MacBook Pro is for.  I argue they know exactly who it is for: general purpose users with cash to burn.  Apple is abandoning the people who have driven and defined what a Mac is for decades.  The marketing and sales people are in control and they're letting Jonny Ive pursue his fetish obsession with thinness at the expense of performance: https://torusoft.com/blog/preemptive-multi-talking-E22
    I think your definition of 'pro' is likely too narrow. 


    its the definition of an Apple pro user from the 80s 90s and 00s.
    Apple is now a consumer-driven corporation.
    sflageldysamoriaewtheckman
  • Reply 87 of 197
    canukstormcanukstorm Posts: 1,953member
    Chris J said:
    Rayz2016 said:

    I think we'll see a 32GB Macbook Pro next year. In the mean time, the Touch Bar and other new features will get a chance to prove themselves with customers and developers.
     If Intel can't sort itself out then I'm afraid you won't
    Discussions of design changes aside, a lot of the limitations in terms of processing power is at the hands of Intel. It's looking like a 2-year wait for 32GB RAM capabilities in a macbook pro since this will still not be available with low power DDR in Kaby Lake.

    According to the previously leaked Intel roadmap, Coffee Lake - the 14nm version of Cannon Lake intended for the H and U flavours of processors - is currently scheduled as a Q2 2018 release from Intel. See image at http://www.macrumors.com/2016/09/22/intel-mobile-roadmap-coffee-lake/

    So a possible path for macbook pros is:

    Q2/3 2017 refresh to Kaby Lake - up to quad core, better power efficiency, better graphics capability compared to Skylake
    Q3/4 2018 refresh to Coffee Lake - up to 6 core, Support for larger RAM configurations.

    Some would say Skylake -> Kaby Lake is not a big jump. Coffee Lake, however, should be significant.

    Bottom line - if you've got a 4/5+ year old laptop to upgrade, now is the time to buy. If it's 1-3 years old, it may be worth waiting 2 more years.
    Coffee Lake will be a big jump for the simple reason is that it's an architectural change. But I was under the impression that even the 28W / 45W flavors of Coffee Lake won't support 32GB LPDDR4 RAM & that Apple would have to wait for Cannon Lake or Ice Lake (10nm). Or am I wrong?
  • Reply 88 of 197
    wood1208 said:
    Off course Apple employees and companies like IBM will buy these new Macbook pro who is moving away from Windows laptop partially or entirely. But, that is not whole Macbook pro market. Millions of college students is big market for Macbook Pro. All kinds of Professionals out side of large corporations is another big market with higher performance, longer battery need. Than, rest of us with need for lighter and cheaper Macbook Pro. So, Apple please have mercy on us and drop base model(8GB,256 SSD, no OLED) price to affordable $1199.
    You might consider doing what I did when I didn't have enough money for a new Mac: Buy used.

    Older Macs hold up pretty well, the OS generally supports hardware several years old.

    Your desired specs are certainly available in last year's MacBook Air if you can live without Retina, or last year's MBP 13". Maybe a 12" Retina screen will get the job done, in which case and original MacBook may do, those are being discounted significantly retail.

    A quality Mac is never going to be a bargain-priced machine. But there are ways to get a Mac that fits your budget.
  • Reply 89 of 197
    nolamacguynolamacguy Posts: 4,758member
    hmlongco said:
    igorsky said:
    You just blew the minds of every serial Apple complainer on the internet.  Although this will surely not satisfy that user who feels that his/her personal use case should be everyone's personal use case.
    I was complaining about the lack of a 32GB option and I'm still complaining about the lack of a 32GB option. 

    I understand why, but that still doesn't change the fact that I need the extra RAM and that's why, as Schiller said, "That it might not be right for everyone on day one."

    As such, I really have no choice but to wait for Apple and Intel to deliver the product I need.

    And just for the record, I don't feel that my use case is everyone's use case. I do, however, know what my use case demands and my complaint (and those of others) was that there wasn't a 32GB OPTION. Just like some people need more disk space and may pop for a 1TB option, or play games and may pop for the graphics card upgrade.
    they're not going to build two different architectures just to give a small minority of people the option. for real brah
    Soli
  • Reply 90 of 197
    SoliSoli Posts: 8,978member
    I think we'll see a 32GB Macbook Pro next year.
    That would be nice to see LP RAM move past 16GiB with Kaby Lake, but how do you see that happening? Intel's own roadmap doesn't show it until Cannon Lake which is supposedly first being released in 2018, which likely means the chips for the MBP won't launch until 2019. But if anyone could do it it's Apple, but how?

    One method could be using their own ARM chip design, but that runs into issues with pro-series machines where legacy apps the norm and where low-end would make more sense—not to mention that Apple would need less RAM on those chips because of architecture efficiency.

    Another option could be Apple making a bridging chip that would interface between the Intel Kaby Lake CPU and the LPDDR3 system RAM in some complex but clever way. Microsoft found a solution with 32-bit Windows Server to exceed more than the 4GiB of memory addressing issue with a PAE (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_Address_Extension) , but that's dissimilar in a different way since 64-bit computing moves that 4GiB physical RAM limit to 16 EiB (Exibyte) or 1024^6 × 16 EiB or 1.8446744e+19 EiB or 17,179,869,184 GiB or 18 billion billion bytes of RAM or 18 quintillion bytes of RAM, if my maths are correct.

    If we do have to wait until 2019 for 32GiB RAM in the MBP it will be a very long wait between maximum RAM jumps. The mid-2010 MBP was able to support 16GiB, after market, so that's a decade. I'm not sure we've ever had to wait that long for a RAM doubling before.
    edited November 2016
  • Reply 91 of 197
    canukstormcanukstorm Posts: 1,953member
    torusoft said:
    Apple has opaquely, and with a heavy dose of market-speak, pivoted away from professional workflows.  The MacBook Pro is 'Pro' in name only.  The company is abandoning professionals so it can chase money.  Some have argued that Apple has no idea who the MacBook Pro is for.  I argue they know exactly who it is for: general purpose users with cash to burn.  Apple is abandoning the people who have driven and defined what a Mac is for decades.  The marketing and sales people are in control and they're letting Jonny Ive pursue his fetish obsession with thinness at the expense of performance: https://torusoft.com/blog/preemptive-multi-talking-E22
    actually, if you read Isaacson's book, he left Jony Ive and the industrial design team with the most operational power, so actually they are in control. Apple is design-led and everything revolves around that to support it.
    Solinolamacguytoranaga
  • Reply 92 of 197
    canukstormcanukstorm Posts: 1,953member
    sandor said:
    paxman said:
    torusoft said:
    Apple has opaquely, and with a heavy dose of market-speak, pivoted away from professional workflows.  The MacBook Pro is 'Pro' in name only.  The company is abandoning professionals so it can chase money.  Some have argued that Apple has no idea who the MacBook Pro is for.  I argue they know exactly who it is for: general purpose users with cash to burn.  Apple is abandoning the people who have driven and defined what a Mac is for decades.  The marketing and sales people are in control and they're letting Jonny Ive pursue his fetish obsession with thinness at the expense of performance: https://torusoft.com/blog/preemptive-multi-talking-E22
    I think your definition of 'pro' is likely too narrow. 


    its the definition of an Apple pro user from the 80s 90s and 00s.
    Apple is now a consumer-driven corporation.
    The 80's and 90's are long gone man. Need to get to present day reality. And Steve Jobs' long-term vision for Apple was to always be a consumer-driven company by making technology more personal & mainstream. Has it ever occurred to you that it was the die-hard pros from the 80s & 90s that were standing in the way of that vision?
    edited November 2016 Solinolamacguypscooter63snype719adonissmubrucemc
  • Reply 93 of 197
    sandor said:
    paxman said:
    torusoft said:
    Apple has opaquely, and with a heavy dose of market-speak, pivoted away from professional workflows.  The MacBook Pro is 'Pro' in name only.  The company is abandoning professionals so it can chase money.  Some have argued that Apple has no idea who the MacBook Pro is for.  I argue they know exactly who it is for: general purpose users with cash to burn.  Apple is abandoning the people who have driven and defined what a Mac is for decades.  The marketing and sales people are in control and they're letting Jonny Ive pursue his fetish obsession with thinness at the expense of performance: https://torusoft.com/blog/preemptive-multi-talking-E22
    I think your definition of 'pro' is likely too narrow. 


    its the definition of an Apple pro user from the 80s 90s and 00s.
    Apple is now a consumer-driven corporation.
    Apple is a customer-driven corporation.

    There are no more "bright shiny professionals" and "dark dull consumers". There are just customers.

    Apple must get rid of that "Pro" moniker a.s.a.p and differentiate the product range in some other way.

    "Here is the iPad Pro, it's an excellent drawing canvas..."
    "But this is a Pro machine, I'm not a Pro. I just want to sketch something when I'm watching TV..." and walks away...
    edited November 2016
  • Reply 94 of 197
    nolamacguynolamacguy Posts: 4,758member
    Larger installed base + pent up demand + update = record orders.

    Any real surprise?
    essentially your suggesting:

    "This thing sucks! I'll take two."

    .....yeaaaahhhh....
  • Reply 95 of 197
    nolamacguynolamacguy Posts: 4,758member
    appex said:
    SD card reader is cumbersome? Really? Then all ports are cumbersome. Just remove all ports from all devices. Pathetic!
    its a big port, and one i have never, ever used in all the years of owning my MBPs. that kinda sums it up. you use it? get an adapter for your use case. i dont want to front the cost of that compromise for your use case (and yes, any port introduces engineering compromise, its the name of the game).
    pscooter63
  • Reply 96 of 197
    blastdoorblastdoor Posts: 1,931member
    Rayz2016 said:
    blastdoor said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    blastdoor said:
    Well, there's a lot of pent-up demand because they haven't updated for so long. 

    Let's see how the sales look after 6 months. 
    But if this thing is as bad as people have been saying it is, then no one would buy it. They'll wait for the next one, or move to Windows as folk here have said they would. I mean if you cannot POSSIBLY work in anything less than 32GB of RAM then the machine is useless to you. 

    I suspect the real reason is that Apple knows more about its customers than we do. 


    There are a variety of needs among Apple's customers. I don't doubt that these new laptops meet the needs of many (perhaps even a majority) of Apple's customers. 

    My guess is that it meets the needs of the people Apple is targeting.

    But the new machines are clearly a disappointment to many (probably not a majority) of Apple's high-end customers. 

    Really? How many of these high-end customers have received them yet? You see, you're assuming they're not because you read it somewhere. The real professionals will assess the machine and then decide whether or not it suits their needs.

    I think it is a mistake for Apple (and those Panglossian Apple fans who reflexively defend everything Apple does) to believe that just because these high-end customers are not a majority of consumers that they don't matter.

    And I think it's a mistake for the whiners who want to be part of the pro club to assume that that machine is junk without actually using it.

     Partly they matter because some of these folks are Apple's most die hard fans -- the ones who evangelize Apple products and provide support to family and friends. Partly they matter because while every individual niche represents a minority of users, it could very well be that the some of all the minorities is a majority. 

    Yeah, the problem with that line of thinking is that if Apple makes a machine to suit all their die-hard fans, then it would start at $20,000 and wouldn't actually fit in any of their houses.

    Speaking strictly as an owner many AAPL sh *snip*

    Yeah, I think we're done. Once you're running the world's most successful consumer electronics company, then feel free to pop back and tell us all about your shares and how they made you an expert in tech market strategy.


    It is in this case, because this happens at almost every product release. It's human nature. We have people who use Macs because it offers them the experience that is the best for them. Then we have a small vocal group that thinks that using Apple products marks them out as something elite. When a pro user – a real pro user, complete with six monitors, four keyboards and beard that he pays good money to keep untidy – says that the machine hasn't got enough memory, these wannabes think 'Yeah, I'm that guy too! I want more memory!' Neither the pro or the wannabes have tried the machine and so right now have no idea if it has enough memory or not.

    There are certainly criticisms at every product release. But all criticisms are not equal. You're trying to dismiss criticism without assessing the merits of the criticism and are instead saying that because some criticism lacks merit, all criticism lacks merit. 

    My guess is that it meets the needs of the people Apple is targeting.

    I think that is likely correct -- it meets the needs of the subset of their current user base that Apple is targeting. But targeting a subset of your user base is a recipe for losing marketshare, not gaining it. I would prefer that Apple gain marketshare. 

    Really? How many of these high-end customers have received them yet? You see, you're assuming they're not because you read it somewhere. The real professionals will assess the machine and then decide whether or not it suits their needs.

    I think "real professionals" can read a spec sheet. If they need more than 16 GB of RAM, a faster GPU, or a faster CPU, they know it. The only uncertainty here is the value of the Touchbar. I think the Touchbar potentially has merit, but it's not a replacement for a faster GPU or more RAM. 

    One aspect of the new MacBook Pro that probably is very appealing to many pros -- and they don't need to see it first hand to figure this out either -- is the wicked fast SSD. That's a really great improvement. 

    And I think it's a mistake for the whiners who want to be part of the pro club to assume that that machine is junk without actually using it.

    You have no idea who you're talking to or about when you say stuff like that. You're really deluding yourself if you think that there are no legitimate criticisms of either this product or of Apple. 

    Yeah, the problem with that line of thinking is that if Apple makes a machine to suit all their die-hard fans, then it would start at $20,000 and wouldn't actually fit in any of their houses.

    That's utterly absurd. You have no idea what you're talking about. 

    Once you're running the world's most successful consumer electronics company, then feel free to pop back and tell us all about your shares and how they made you an expert in tech market strategy.

    Are you seriously trying to argue that the person running the most successful consumer electronics company in the world is infallible and cannot be criticized by anyone? Do you even have a job? 

    dysamoriaavon b7ewtheckman
  • Reply 97 of 197
    wigginwiggin Posts: 2,265member
    Rayz2016 said:

    cali said:
    If the Touchbar shipped on the cheaper/smaller MacBooks I could really see them shipping iPad numbers.

    Funny they kept the headphone jack for "professional audio".  This was the same argument I had for the headphone jack and got bashed for it like crazy here on Apple Insider.
    It's still confusing why they didn't include a lightning port for optional charging, headphones and headphone adapters. Makes Apple seem less confident in their choices.

    If you have wired headphones, you're good.
    If you have wireless headphones, you're good.

    Which leaves the question, how many people charge gadgets through their laptops? I don't, but unlike the anti-Macbook Pro crowd, I'm not going to assume that everyone else is the same.
    I do, all the time (for the record, 2011 17" MBP). When travelling I frequently have all three USB ports in use charging devices. That means a single charger (the MBP's) plugged into the wall will charge my laptop and any three USB devices at the same time (iPhone, iPad, wife's iPhone, wireless headphones, GPS watch, etc). This is very valuable in hotel rooms which typically have very few free outlets. Even more so when travelling internationally and you need adapters just to plug anything into the wall. I also make heavy use of the ExpressCard slot with an adapter (which inserts fully and flush so nothing is sticking out) to duplicate the recent MBP SD card slots.

    To me, the definition of "Pro" is not just about raw power or the ability to drive multiple 5K monitors. Just how many MBP owners do you think ever really do that? How many ever even connect to a single external monitor, let alone two? "Pro" is also about being able to get things done with minimal fuss, which includes not being dependent on a bunch of adapters. It includes being practically anywhere in the world and being able to easily buy a cable if I should lose mine or if mine fails for any reason. Adapters can fail and often do not provide the same seamless experience as a native port. And they are much more difficult to replace when you are traveling or otherwise need one on short notice. I can step into any Walgreens or 7-11 in the country at 10 PM and get any cord I'd currently ever need. The same simply is not true of USB C cords/adapters and won't be for quite some time.

    The new MBPs are fine machines, but probably more so if yours spends more time sitting on a desk at home or in the office connected to a dock or via adapters to various motionless devices. Less so if your needs are more mobile. The power it provides is fantastic (for my needs, others have more demanding needs) and I think I would really like the new screen tech (the monitor, I don't care either way about the Touch Bar); but it comes with compromises with regards to other "pro" requirements I have. In a few years when USB C is more common place, the situation will be different. But that doesn't address my requirements today. 

    I was finally prepared to give up my 17" screen and upgrade my aging MBP. I was looking forward to Apple's MBP update this Fall and was planning on upgrading, but now I've determined that it will not be a 2016 model. I'll look for a 2015 model, hopefully at a discounted price. In 3-5 years the USB C story will be different. It's unfortunate (in my mind) that Apple couldn't have provided a transition model like they have with every past MBP port migration which would allow me to start purchasing USB C and Thunderbolt 3 devices and be in a better position for going all-C with my next laptop purchase.

    You are correct that we shouldn't assume that everyone's requirements are the same as ours, but that also means understanding that thinness and raw power are perhaps not the only requirements for a "pro" machine.

    You also have to admit that there are far, far more negative comments and upset folks with this upgrade than there has been for any Apple release in recent memory...perhaps ever. There are always going to be at least some number of people who are upset/disappointed, but the sheer volume of complaints this time around should perhaps give you a little pause to ask yourself if this is really just the same ranting that always accompanies an Apple announcement? Or perhaps, just perhaps, there might me a bit more legitimacy to the complaints this time around.
    dysamoriaewtheckman
  • Reply 98 of 197
    canukstormcanukstorm Posts: 1,953member
    sandor said:
    paxman said:
    torusoft said:
    Apple has opaquely, and with a heavy dose of market-speak, pivoted away from professional workflows.  The MacBook Pro is 'Pro' in name only.  The company is abandoning professionals so it can chase money.  Some have argued that Apple has no idea who the MacBook Pro is for.  I argue they know exactly who it is for: general purpose users with cash to burn.  Apple is abandoning the people who have driven and defined what a Mac is for decades.  The marketing and sales people are in control and they're letting Jonny Ive pursue his fetish obsession with thinness at the expense of performance: https://torusoft.com/blog/preemptive-multi-talking-E22
    I think your definition of 'pro' is likely too narrow. 


    its the definition of an Apple pro user from the 80s 90s and 00s.
    Apple is now a consumer-driven corporation.
    Apple is a customer-driven corporation.

    There are no more "bright shiny professionals" and "dark dull consumers". There are just customers.

    Apple must get rid of that "Pro" moniker a.s.a.p and differentiate the product range in some other way.

    "Here is the iPad Pro, it's an excellent drawing canvas..."
    "But this is a Pro machine, I'm not a Pro. I just want to sketch something when I'm watching TV..." and walks away...
    "Apple must get rid of that "Pro" moniker a.s.a.p and differentiate the product range in some other way."

    One way they could do it is consolidate the line and just call it Macbook.

    Or if they want to keep the "Pro" monikor around, just call the 15" MBP with quad-core CPU / discreet GPU Macbook Pro, & everything else Macbook.

    Honestly don't see any other solution.
    edited November 2016 avon b7
  • Reply 99 of 197
    blastdoorblastdoor Posts: 1,931member
    I think this is a good take on the situation: 

    http://www.macworld.com/article/3137575/macs/the-new-macbook-pro-isnt-just-a-laptop-its-a-strategy-shift.html

    I'm skeptical that this is a good shift, but I agree with his description of the situation. 
  • Reply 100 of 197
    Pent up demand is all. The iOS kids have permeated Apple and it is blinded by the huge consumer market it has tapped into. The dream is all but over. Apple has lost its rudder. It makes no professional Macs any longer. It might see the light before it's too late, but I cannot hold my breath much longer. 30 years of living the dream. I should be happy with that, but it still saddens me to see the fire inside me flicker out. RIP Apple. Please prove me wrong.
    dysamoria
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