You are saying that most of those who are complaining on this issue are Apple's most "die hard" fans? On this forum and others I read, the commenters (very much including you) almost never have positives to say about Apple.
You either have not been paying attention or, despite your claim to the contrary, you really don't understand what honest, constructive criticism looks like.
When there are positive things to say about Apple, I say them. Sometimes there are months, even years, in which my comments are almost entirely positive. During those periods of time, some accuse me of being an Apple fanboy. Then there are periods of time when I have negative things to say about Apple. Sometimes those periods of time last for months or even years. During those periods of time, people like you think I'm a hater. But in both instances, I'm just reacting to the facts (as I see them) that are in front of me.
Excellent response. I'm in the same position. When Apple was pushing this miserable industry forward, I was very visible and audible in my support and positive commentary. Ever since Apple jumped the shark with iOS 7, things have been going rather sour and I have been critical where it was merited. Whether our complaints align with popular emotion is irrelivant.
Just a question: does anyone here feel that Schiller has his finger on the pulse of the computer/tech world?
For my part, the answer is no. Microsoft is everywhere with commercials that say "You can't do that on a Mac" and "My Mac doesn't do that". Apple's response (direct or indirect) is nowhere to be found. Is this because Schiller can't think of a response, or because the products that might counter such ads or create their own buzz don't exist? I think the Touch Bar is a significant advance in user interface, and I don't know if the Surface is going to be crap or the Next Big Thing, but right now it's all anyone is talking about. Why would you cede this battlefield to a deep pocket competitor?
Based on the Apple executive interviews everyone is commenting on, the recent Apple approach of "we just took years and years polishing and polishing this pebble until it glowed" is Band on the Titanic Redux. And bad things tend to happen when you bring marketing and advertising all in house. Maybe we can get another Bokeh photo feature ad for iPhone (ask around yourself...most people seeing those ads have no idea what the ad was about), or another "shot on iPhone" ad. I know the "shooting in the rain at night on a skateboard" ad was, uh, riveting.
I qualify as one of the oldest Apple fanboys (1985 and a crap ton of Macs ever since), but this boat needs a new crew. Maybe the Admiral can stay on board, maybe not.
Well... I think Apple (and Schiller) have articulated a response to the Surface products. The response to the Surface products is that while they make for great demos, their usage model isn't actually that good. Part of it has to do with the ergonomics of touching a vertical screen. Part of it has to do with the UI awkwardness of combining a pointing device with touch.
I'm somewhat persuaded by this argument. But then again, I was also persuaded by the argument that phablets are too big to be useful -- and now I own an iPhone 7+. But overall.... yeah, I think I buy it.
My guess is that the exec team at Apple probably do have a very good sense of the market. I think their problem is that they haven't figured out a way to serve anything more than about 10 to 20% of any given market (assuming we use broad definitions of markets, that is) while still maintaining their quality standards.
My concern is that they aren't even interested in figuring out how to serve a bigger share of the market. Instead, they seem more interested in carefully expelling one group of users in favor of another. With that approach they will eventually alienate a lot of people.
Looks like the most recent version has all the kinks out and it's only $64.99.
Seems like folks prefer to whine about something where existing solutions exist for the 1 port MacBook.
Does that have an "outbound" Thunderbolt port on it? These hubs tend to dead-end the device chain, which is exactly what Thunderbolt is NOT about. The same nonsense was present in many manufacturers of FireWire hardware (M-Audio audio interfaces were particularly annoying with this, while better manufacturers included the standard TWO ports to continue daisy chaining the bus where data throughput needs were tolerant).
As is typical with Apple products, there is a vocal minority of complainers out there, never satisfied with some aspect of any Apple device. When Apple was selling the fastest, most powerful (fill in the blank device), the complainers said it was too expensive, or didn't have some port or drive that they just absolutely couldn't live without.
As I've lived with Apple products going back to the original Macintosh, and supported them through lots of dark days, I kind of feel bad for Apple. They have been scorned for so long, especially by people in the tech (and financial) markets, even as they push entire markets and their competitors forward.
The thing is, they DO push the markets and tech forward... And then they rest on their laurels for as many years as it takes to cause serious self-inflicted injuries. They go in spurts of great accomplishments, followed by insular arrogance and downward spirals. Last time, they were rescued by one of their original founders. That will not happen again. There is very little legitimate leadership in the publicly owned corporate landscape, let alone the stagnant computer industry. Apple seriously pushed that stagnation, and I rejoiced, but they are now part of the problem again, through their own fault (and yes, Intel only developing chipsets for huge, loud, and hot PCs).
hmm, interesting - so you're saying that you think Apple is DOOOMED? what a thought.
Pent up demand is all. The iOS kids have permeated Apple and it is blinded by the huge consumer market it has tapped into. The dream is all but over. Apple has lost its rudder. It makes no professional Macs any longer. It might see the light before it's too late, but I cannot hold my breath much longer. 30 years of living the dream. I should be happy with that, but it still saddens me to see the fire inside me flicker out. RIP Apple. Please prove me wrong.
hyperbolic nonsense. Jobs was the head cheerleader for iOS -- so he was a kid and blinded by consumers? uh dude, you do realize Jobs and the original Mac team's goal was "a computer for the rest of us", right??
You're absolutely right. But at the time, I don't think Jobs realized (or maybe he did) that it was the iPhone, and later the iPad, that would go on to become "the computer for the rest of us". And in a much bigger way than the Mac.
at the time of the original mac did they expect the iPhone to become this? of course not. at the time of the iphone and ipad inceptions? absolutely i think that. in fact if you read the original mac vision doc (by Jef Raskin) it's for a sealed appliance computer for the person in the street (PITS) that runs about $500 and is not modal. it basically describes an ipad:
- This is an outline for a computer designed for the Person In The Street (or, to abbreviate: the PITS); one that will be truly pleasant to use, that will require the user to do nothing that will threaten his or her perverse delight in being able to say: "I don't know the first thing about computers"
- The computer must be in one lump.
- There must not be additional ROMS, RAMS, boards or accessories except those that can be understood by the PITS as a separate appliance
- Seeing the guts is taboo. Things in sockets is taboo
- There must not be a plethora of configurations. It is better to offer a variety of case colors than to have variable amounts of memory.
- And you get ten points if you can eliminate the power cord.
- It would be best if it were to have a battery that could keep it running for at least two hours when fully charged.
- The system must not have modes or levels. The user always knows where he or she is because there is only one place to be.
...Raskin even got the ipad's price right:
- The end-user cost for this machine should be $500 or less
but it tickles me to read this:
- It is better to offer a variety of case colors than to have variable amounts of memory
...he called for different iPad shell colors way back in 1979!!
Just a question: does anyone here feel that Schiller has his finger on the pulse of the computer/tech world?
For my part, the answer is no. Microsoft is everywhere with commercials that say "You can't do that on a Mac" and "My Mac doesn't do that". Apple's response (direct or indirect) is nowhere to be found. Is this because Schiller can't think of a response, or because the products that might counter such ads or create their own buzz don't exist? I think the Touch Bar is a significant advance in user interface, and I don't know if the Surface is going to be crap or the Next Big Thing, but right now it's all anyone is talking about. Why would you cede this battlefield to a deep pocket competitor?
Based on the Apple executive interviews everyone is commenting on, the recent Apple approach of "we just took years and years polishing and polishing this pebble until it glowed" is Band on the Titanic Redux. And bad things tend to happen when you bring marketing and advertising all in house. Maybe we can get another Bokeh photo feature ad for iPhone (ask around yourself...most people seeing those ads have no idea what the ad was about), or another "shot on iPhone" ad. I know the "shooting in the rain at night on a skateboard" ad was, uh, riveting.
I qualify as one of the oldest Apple fanboys (1985 and a crap ton of Macs ever since), but this boat needs a new crew. Maybe the Admiral can stay on board, maybe not.
Well... I think Apple (and Schiller) have articulated a response to the Surface products. The response to the Surface products is that while they make for great demos, their usage model isn't actually that good. Part of it has to do with the ergonomics of touching a vertical screen. Part of it has to do with the UI awkwardness of combining a pointing device with touch.
I'm somewhat persuaded by this argument. But then again, I was also persuaded by the argument that phablets are too big to be useful -- and now I own an iPhone 7+. But overall.... yeah, I think I buy it.
My guess is that the exec team at Apple probably do have a very good sense of the market. I think their problem is that they haven't figured out a way to serve anything more than about 10 to 20% of any given market (assuming we use broad definitions of markets, that is) while still maintaining their quality standards.
My concern is that they aren't even interested in figuring out how to serve a bigger share of the market. Instead, they seem more interested in carefully expelling one group of users in favor of another. With that approach they will eventually alienate a lot of people.
"I'm somewhat persuaded by this argument. But then again, I was also persuaded by the argument that phablets are too big to be useful -- and now I own an iPhone 7+. But overall.... yeah, I think I buy it. "
Here's a very recent interview with Craig Federighi on why there's no touch screen Macs
"Those were carefully chosen words by Federighi. He does not say that there won't be a touchscreen Mac, instead he notes that the simple addition or "grafting" on of a touchscreen to the Mac would be a compromise. Importantly, the compromise that he refers to is not one related to ergonomics, but rather the fact that macOS is currently designed around an interaction model driven by a precise pointer.
I agree with Federighi. I certainly wouldn't want to see a Mac with a touchscreen bolted on, with no adjustments to the UI of macOS. But as someone who regularly uses the iPad Pro in a laptop-esque configuration with the Smart Keyboard, I see the value in having a touchscreen on a Mac, provided that there are also UI changes to macOS."
Well, there's a lot of pent-up demand because they haven't updated for so long.
Let's see how the sales look after 6 months.
But if this thing is as bad as people have been saying it is, then no one would buy it. They'll wait for the next one, or move to Windows as folk here have said they would. I mean if you cannot POSSIBLY work in anything less than 32GB of RAM then the machine is useless to you.
I suspect the real reason is that Apple knows more about its customers than we do.
Apple know more about their end consumers, maybe. The people buying iOS devices and laptops for casual activities are their core market right now (and there's nothing wrong with such computer usage; we cannot all be content creators or studio artists). Apple seem to not give much consideration to actual professional content creators, though. Or developers, for that matter. I find myself wondering what Apple use internally in their design and engineering departments. 2013 Mac Pro? Older Mac Pro models? iMacs? MacBooks?? I know that photography and music have crashed as far as things you can make a living on (and design is in the trash can as well), but video editing and CGI for TV and film are still growing, as is the gaming industry, none of which are professions that Apple spend much time catering to with their product at this time. These industries see time as money, so the more RAM and brute CPU/GPU speed, the better for them. I'm happy Apple produces luxury computers, because I think PCs suck for everything but brute power, but Apple isn't even attempting to maintain a foothold in the professional realm.
The defensive commentary from Apple execs isn't impressing anything on me other than how far off the mark their arrogant insular opinions are...
How do you know that Macs are not used in gaming industry? And why should Apple provide solutions for these industries? Providing such solutions is the job of system integrators, not Apple's. You wouldn't want your studio be built by Apple, that would cost to you so much that you would'nt want to see an "A" letter again. There are many talented guys who would do that better and cheaper than Apple. Apple just provides a powerful core called Mac Pro to these guys, that's it and that is the most fortunate.
As is typical with Apple products, there is a vocal minority of complainers out there, never satisfied with some aspect of any Apple device. When Apple was selling the fastest, most powerful (fill in the blank device), the complainers said it was too expensive, or didn't have some port or drive that they just absolutely couldn't live without.
As I've lived with Apple products going back to the original Macintosh, and supported them through lots of dark days, I kind of feel bad for Apple. They have been scorned for so long, especially by people in the tech (and financial) markets, even as they push entire markets and their competitors forward.
The thing is, they DO push the markets and tech forward... And then they rest on their laurels for as many years as it takes to cause serious self-inflicted injuries. They go in spurts of great accomplishments, followed by insular arrogance and downward spirals. Last time, they were rescued by one of their original founders. That will not happen again. There is very little legitimate leadership in the publicly owned corporate landscape, let alone the stagnant computer industry. Apple seriously pushed that stagnation, and I rejoiced, but they are now part of the problem again, through their own fault (and yes, Intel only developing chipsets for huge, loud, and hot PCs).
hmm, interesting - so you're saying that you think Apple is DOOOMED? what a thought.
I can't stop you putting words in my mouth or building strawman arguments, but... No. I just want this wretched industry back on track like it was between Snow Leopard and iOS 7. I see Apple as the best company to be able to do it, should they be aware enough and willing to do what it takes. As of right now, they're deviating massively and falling down the rabbit hole of shareholder rule and consumer trend setting (which is ironic, since flat UI is a trend they followed, not lead).
Pent up demand is all. The iOS kids have permeated Apple and it is blinded by the huge consumer market it has tapped into. The dream is all but over. Apple has lost its rudder. It makes no professional Macs any longer. It might see the light before it's too late, but I cannot hold my breath much longer. 30 years of living the dream. I should be happy with that, but it still saddens me to see the fire inside me flicker out. RIP Apple. Please prove me wrong.
hyperbolic nonsense. Jobs was the head cheerleader for iOS -- so he was a kid and blinded by consumers? uh dude, you do realize Jobs and the original Mac team's goal was "a computer for the rest of us", right??
You're absolutely right. But at the time, I don't think Jobs realized (or maybe he did) that it was the iPhone, and later the iPad, that would go on to become "the computer for the rest of us". And in a much bigger way than the Mac.
Yes he did. He launched the iPhone before the iPad because iPad was not ready. His main endeavour was the iPad.
As is typical with Apple products, there is a vocal minority of complainers out there, never satisfied with some aspect of any Apple device. When Apple was selling the fastest, most powerful (fill in the blank device), the complainers said it was too expensive, or didn't have some port or drive that they just absolutely couldn't live without.
As I've lived with Apple products going back to the original Macintosh, and supported them through lots of dark days, I kind of feel bad for Apple. They have been scorned for so long, especially by people in the tech (and financial) markets, even as they push entire markets and their competitors forward.
The thing is, they DO push the markets and tech forward... And then they rest on their laurels for as many years as it takes to cause serious self-inflicted injuries. They go in spurts of great accomplishments, followed by insular arrogance and downward spirals. Last time, they were rescued by one of their original founders. That will not happen again. There is very little legitimate leadership in the publicly owned corporate landscape, let alone the stagnant computer industry. Apple seriously pushed that stagnation, and I rejoiced, but they are now part of the problem again, through their own fault (and yes, Intel only developing chipsets for huge, loud, and hot PCs).
hmm, interesting - so you're saying that you think Apple is DOOOMED? what a thought.
I can't stop you putting words in my mouth or building strawman arguments, but... No. I just want this wretched industry back on track like it was between Snow Leopard and iOS 7. I see Apple as the best company to be able to do it, should they be aware enough and willing to do what it takes. As of right now, they're deviating massively and falling down the rabbit hole of shareholder rule and consumer trend setting (which is ironic, since flat UI is a trend they followed, not lead).
Curios to know why you think they're ruled by shareholders? Tim Cook has gone on record saying there are many things Apple invests in that have no ROI but do it because it's the right thing to do.
As is typical with Apple products, there is a vocal minority of complainers out there, never satisfied with some aspect of any Apple device. When Apple was selling the fastest, most powerful (fill in the blank device), the complainers said it was too expensive, or didn't have some port or drive that they just absolutely couldn't live without.
As I've lived with Apple products going back to the original Macintosh, and supported them through lots of dark days, I kind of feel bad for Apple. They have been scorned for so long, especially by people in the tech (and financial) markets, even as they push entire markets and their competitors forward.
The thing is, they DO push the markets and tech forward... And then they rest on their laurels for as many years as it takes to cause serious self-inflicted injuries. They go in spurts of great accomplishments, followed by insular arrogance and downward spirals. Last time, they were rescued by one of their original founders. That will not happen again. There is very little legitimate leadership in the publicly owned corporate landscape, let alone the stagnant computer industry. Apple seriously pushed that stagnation, and I rejoiced, but they are now part of the problem again, through their own fault (and yes, Intel only developing chipsets for huge, loud, and hot PCs).
hmm, interesting - so you're saying that you think Apple is DOOOMED? what a thought.
I can't stop you putting words in my mouth or building strawman arguments, but... No. I just want this wretched industry back on track like it was between Snow Leopard and iOS 7. I see Apple as the best company to be able to do it, should they be aware enough and willing to do what it takes. As of right now, they're deviating massively and falling down the rabbit hole of shareholder rule and consumer trend setting (which is ironic, since flat UI is a trend they followed, not lead).
words in your mouth? lets see...heres what you said:
"They go in spurts of great accomplishments, followed by insular arrogance and downward spirals. Last time, they were rescued by one of their original founders. That will not happen again."
sure sounds like you're saying their arrogance will inevitably lead to a downward spiral, from which they will not be rescued or saved. IOW, doomed.
as to another of your claims -- what evidence do you put forth to suggest Apple is succumbing to "shareholder rule"? i see no evidence of that in their product design or management style. please be specific.
As is typical with Apple products, there is a vocal minority of complainers out there, never satisfied with some aspect of any Apple device. When Apple was selling the fastest, most powerful (fill in the blank device), the complainers said it was too expensive, or didn't have some port or drive that they just absolutely couldn't live without.
As I've lived with Apple products going back to the original Macintosh, and supported them through lots of dark days, I kind of feel bad for Apple. They have been scorned for so long, especially by people in the tech (and financial) markets, even as they push entire markets and their competitors forward.
The thing is, they DO push the markets and tech forward... And then they rest on their laurels for as many years as it takes to cause serious self-inflicted injuries. They go in spurts of great accomplishments, followed by insular arrogance and downward spirals. Last time, they were rescued by one of their original founders. That will not happen again. There is very little legitimate leadership in the publicly owned corporate landscape, let alone the stagnant computer industry. Apple seriously pushed that stagnation, and I rejoiced, but they are now part of the problem again, through their own fault (and yes, Intel only developing chipsets for huge, loud, and hot PCs).
hmm, interesting - so you're saying that you think Apple is DOOOMED? what a thought.
I can't stop you putting words in my mouth or building strawman arguments, but... No. I just want this wretched industry back on track like it was between Snow Leopard and iOS 7. I see Apple as the best company to be able to do it, should they be aware enough and willing to do what it takes. As of right now, they're deviating massively and falling down the rabbit hole of shareholder rule and consumer trend setting (which is ironic, since flat UI is a trend they followed, not lead).
In terms of flat UI they've just did what their hardware required in terms of interface. 3D ergonomics is not suited to the Retina display. They followed no one but their success in hardware.
Well, there's a lot of pent-up demand because they haven't updated for so long.
Let's see how the sales look after 6 months.
But if this thing is as bad as people have been saying it is, then no one would buy it. They'll wait for the next one, or move to Windows as folk here have said they would. I mean if you cannot POSSIBLY work in anything less than 32GB of RAM then the machine is useless to you.
I suspect the real reason is that Apple knows more about its customers than we do.
Apple know more about their end consumers, maybe. The people buying iOS devices and laptops for casual activities are their core market right now (and there's nothing wrong with such computer usage; we cannot all be content creators or studio artists). Apple seem to not give much consideration to actual professional content creators, though. Or developers, for that matter. I find myself wondering what Apple use internally in their design and engineering departments. 2013 Mac Pro? Older Mac Pro models? iMacs? MacBooks?? I know that photography and music have crashed as far as things you can make a living on (and design is in the trash can as well), but video editing and CGI for TV and film are still growing, as is the gaming industry, none of which are professions that Apple spend much time catering to with their product at this time. These industries see time as money, so the more RAM and brute CPU/GPU speed, the better for them. I'm happy Apple produces luxury computers, because I think PCs suck for everything but brute power, but Apple isn't even attempting to maintain a foothold in the professional realm.
The defensive commentary from Apple execs isn't impressing anything on me other than how far off the mark their arrogant insular opinions are...
How do you know that Macs are not used in gaming industry? And why should Apple provide out-of-the-box, plug-and-play solutions for these industries? Providing such turnkey solutions is the job of system integrators, not Apple's. You wouldn't want your studio be built by Apple, that would cost to you so much that you would'nt want to see an "A" letter again. There are many talented guys who would do that better and cheaper than Apple. Apple just provides a powerful core called Mac Pro to these guys, that's it and that is the most fortunate.
I didn't state they were not used. Nowhere in my comments did I say that. I said Apple is not spending much time (or any) catering to those industries. It's right there in my text, and you bolded it yourself.
The Mac is not used in the desktop gaming industry AS MUCH as I would like. I would like to see it used more because I want to stop relying on Windows for gaming. The general reasoning for poor Mac representation in desktop gaming is that Mac GPUs aren't cutting edge enough. But it's there and it's possible (I played all of Half-Life 2 on the MacBook Pro 3,1, which suicided from heat fatigue).
iOS, however, is a very different story. It seems to be upsetting all portable gaming platforms, much to Nintendo and Sony's chagrin. You do need a Mac to develop for iOS. The slower your compiler goes, the more the project will cost. So it behoves Apple to make powerful developer machines at least.
No one is asking for turnkey solutions from Apple for these industries; many people ARE asking for professional grade computers to put into the core of such solutions. Computers that aren't compromised by laptop components or shorted on available connectivity and power. Apple isn't making those.
As is typical with Apple products, there is a vocal minority of complainers out there, never satisfied with some aspect of any Apple device. When Apple was selling the fastest, most powerful (fill in the blank device), the complainers said it was too expensive, or didn't have some port or drive that they just absolutely couldn't live without.
As I've lived with Apple products going back to the original Macintosh, and supported them through lots of dark days, I kind of feel bad for Apple. They have been scorned for so long, especially by people in the tech (and financial) markets, even as they push entire markets and their competitors forward.
The thing is, they DO push the markets and tech forward... And then they rest on their laurels for as many years as it takes to cause serious self-inflicted injuries. They go in spurts of great accomplishments, followed by insular arrogance and downward spirals. Last time, they were rescued by one of their original founders. That will not happen again. There is very little legitimate leadership in the publicly owned corporate landscape, let alone the stagnant computer industry. Apple seriously pushed that stagnation, and I rejoiced, but they are now part of the problem again, through their own fault (and yes, Intel only developing chipsets for huge, loud, and hot PCs).
hmm, interesting - so you're saying that you think Apple is DOOOMED? what a thought.
I can't stop you putting words in my mouth or building strawman arguments, but... No. I just want this wretched industry back on track like it was between Snow Leopard and iOS 7. I see Apple as the best company to be able to do it, should they be aware enough and willing to do what it takes. As of right now, they're deviating massively and falling down the rabbit hole of shareholder rule and consumer trend setting (which is ironic, since flat UI is a trend they followed, not lead).
In terms of flat UI they've just did what their hardware required in terms of interface. 3D ergonomics is not suited to the Retina display. They followed no one but their success in hardware.
I'm assuming he referring to MS' coming out with the idea of flat UI first with Windows Phone / Windows 8 and Apple copying their idea or following their lead.
Looks like the most recent version has all the kinks out and it's only $64.99.
Seems like folks prefer to whine about something where existing solutions exist for the 1 port MacBook.
Does that have an "outbound" Thunderbolt port on it? These hubs tend to dead-end the device chain, which is exactly what Thunderbolt is NOT about. The same nonsense was present in many manufacturers of FireWire hardware (M-Audio audio interfaces were particularly annoying with this, while better manufacturers included the standard TWO ports to continue daisy chaining the bus where data throughput needs were tolerant).
Why would the Retina Macbook include a Thunderbolt? It has USB-C and this is way it is conceived. What is your problem with that?
Just a question: does anyone here feel that Schiller has his finger on the pulse of the computer/tech world?
For my part, the answer is no. Microsoft is everywhere with commercials that say "You can't do that on a Mac" and "My Mac doesn't do that". Apple's response (direct or indirect) is nowhere to be found. Is this because Schiller can't think of a response, or because the products that might counter such ads or create their own buzz don't exist? I think the Touch Bar is a significant advance in user interface, and I don't know if the Surface is going to be crap or the Next Big Thing, but right now it's all anyone is talking about. Why would you cede this battlefield to a deep pocket competitor?
Based on the Apple executive interviews everyone is commenting on, the recent Apple approach of "we just took years and years polishing and polishing this pebble until it glowed" is Band on the Titanic Redux. And bad things tend to happen when you bring marketing and advertising all in house. Maybe we can get another Bokeh photo feature ad for iPhone (ask around yourself...most people seeing those ads have no idea what the ad was about), or another "shot on iPhone" ad. I know the "shooting in the rain at night on a skateboard" ad was, uh, riveting.
I qualify as one of the oldest Apple fanboys (1985 and a crap ton of Macs ever since), but this boat needs a new crew. Maybe the Admiral can stay on board, maybe not.
(hey pro tip -- "I've been an Apple Fan since xxx..." is basically a troll trope these days. you get no street red with that, especially with so few posts/history here)
as for Microsoft's ads:
1) theyre comparing touch/drawing functionality to a Mac when they should be comparing it to iPad. they also dont call attention to their lousy OS, battery life, etc etc. it's a cherry-picking ad.
2) when you're the market leader as Apple is, you dont run ads responding to your challengers. only challengers call out market leaders.
Another Pro Tip: Truth is Truth. Got my first Apple //c in July, 1985 in a warehouse sale in Eden Prairie, Minnesota. Have purchased more than 40 in the interim, and all of them but one Mac II still work in case you're curious. My short life here on AI is a result lurking for years and being on MacRumors since 2003, and a couple other beloved sites now extinct. Left because of trolls. I appreciate your positivity toward Apple products, and up until a year or so ago I was right there with you. But I have to call it the way I see it. I'm still an Apple guy, but these recent releases have done nothing to advance the cause. It's been a series of unforced errors.
Of course the Microsoft ads are selective and misleading; that doesn't mean they're not occupying the public's imagination, as you must be aware from the comments here on AI. When you offer nothing to counter that mindshare for almost a year now, you're going to lose. Consumers are not techies---they assume it's all true. And please understand, that new Surface device is a hideous, erector set industrial design, but it's something no one else has. Why not run iPad Pro ads? Pencil, Office apps, etc. Do something to show you still have a pulse.
Of course you don't ever have to respond tit for tat to a competitor; but in a world where Apple sales are shrinking, you have to be much more productive and visible than they have been. It's not like they can't afford it.
Just a question: does anyone here feel that Schiller has his finger on the pulse of the computer/tech world?
For my part, the answer is no. Microsoft is everywhere with commercials that say "You can't do that on a Mac" and "My Mac doesn't do that". Apple's response (direct or indirect) is nowhere to be found. Is this because Schiller can't think of a response, or because the products that might counter such ads or create their own buzz don't exist? I think the Touch Bar is a significant advance in user interface, and I don't know if the Surface is going to be crap or the Next Big Thing, but right now it's all anyone is talking about. Why would you cede this battlefield to a deep pocket competitor?
Based on the Apple executive interviews everyone is commenting on, the recent Apple approach of "we just took years and years polishing and polishing this pebble until it glowed" is Band on the Titanic Redux. And bad things tend to happen when you bring marketing and advertising all in house. Maybe we can get another Bokeh photo feature ad for iPhone (ask around yourself...most people seeing those ads have no idea what the ad was about), or another "shot on iPhone" ad. I know the "shooting in the rain at night on a skateboard" ad was, uh, riveting.
I qualify as one of the oldest Apple fanboys (1985 and a crap ton of Macs ever since), but this boat needs a new crew. Maybe the Admiral can stay on board, maybe not.
Well... I think Apple (and Schiller) have articulated a response to the Surface products. The response to the Surface products is that while they make for great demos, their usage model isn't actually that good. Part of it has to do with the ergonomics of touching a vertical screen. Part of it has to do with the UI awkwardness of combining a pointing device with touch.
I'm somewhat persuaded by this argument. But then again, I was also persuaded by the argument that phablets are too big to be useful -- and now I own an iPhone 7+. But overall.... yeah, I think I buy it.
My guess is that the exec team at Apple probably do have a very good sense of the market. I think their problem is that they haven't figured out a way to serve anything more than about 10 to 20% of any given market (assuming we use broad definitions of markets, that is) while still maintaining their quality standards.
My concern is that they aren't even interested in figuring out how to serve a bigger share of the market. Instead, they seem more interested in carefully expelling one group of users in favor of another. With that approach they will eventually alienate a lot of people.
As for MS showing the touchscreen of a Surface and saying "you can't do that on a mac," that's just a droll marketing diversion. Macs don't have touchscreens, and Schiller has articulated why. Note that the MS Surface ads don't say, "you can't do that on an iPad." The hardware on a notebook just isn't conducive to touchscreen use. Especially if the notebook is lightweight, tapping on the screen is going to make the thing bounce around or even tip backward. Imagine the uproar on the message-boards over 'tip-gate.' Add to that the familiar macOS menu-driven interface also not being conducive to the touch experience. They'd have to do away with that interface, which -once again- would cause a furor. You think people are torqued over the move to USB-C ports on MBP (and no headphone jack on the iPhone), well if macOS just became iOS on steroids, there would be outrage (outrage, I tell you!) over turning MBP into an iPad with a non-detachable keyboard. Of course, they could try to incorporate both interfaces and be all things to all people, but Microsoft would probably accuse Apple of stealing Windows 8 out of a dumpster in Redmond.
No, Apple has been quite successful without trying to capture the majority of the market. With each new announcement, update, or product release, it seems the message boards fill up with commentary that (in some cases intentionally, I'm convinced) misses the point of what's made Apple, well, Apple. They have no intention of producing devices that meet every price point and are customizable to be everything to everyone. Microsoft, Google, Samsung and others all pursue that model, and collectively, they do make up the majority of the market. Their products fail to be conclusively superior (and are less profitable), however, and in lots of cases end up being quite inferior and less reliable. In individual cases, of course, some people can get exactly what they want from one of those manufacturers, but for many, that supposedly perfect match really just ends up being a bundle of customized compromises.
For those who want to lament the passing of Apple, I'd suggest keeping your powder dry. If Apple ever starts chasing down every option and every last bell-and-whistle, that's when you'll be able to see the whites of their eyes.
Just a question: does anyone here feel that Schiller has his finger on the pulse of the computer/tech world?
For my part, the answer is no. Microsoft is everywhere with commercials that say "You can't do that on a Mac" and "My Mac doesn't do that". Apple's response (direct or indirect) is nowhere to be found. Is this because Schiller can't think of a response, or because the products that might counter such ads or create their own buzz don't exist? I think the Touch Bar is a significant advance in user interface, and I don't know if the Surface is going to be crap or the Next Big Thing, but right now it's all anyone is talking about. Why would you cede this battlefield to a deep pocket competitor?
Based on the Apple executive interviews everyone is commenting on, the recent Apple approach of "we just took years and years polishing and polishing this pebble until it glowed" is Band on the Titanic Redux. And bad things tend to happen when you bring marketing and advertising all in house. Maybe we can get another Bokeh photo feature ad for iPhone (ask around yourself...most people seeing those ads have no idea what the ad was about), or another "shot on iPhone" ad. I know the "shooting in the rain at night on a skateboard" ad was, uh, riveting.
I qualify as one of the oldest Apple fanboys (1985 and a crap ton of Macs ever since), but this boat needs a new crew. Maybe the Admiral can stay on board, maybe not.
(hey pro tip -- "I've been an Apple Fan since xxx..." is basically a troll trope these days. you get no street red with that, especially with so few posts/history here)
as for Microsoft's ads:
1) theyre comparing touch/drawing functionality to a Mac when they should be comparing it to iPad. they also dont call attention to their lousy OS, battery life, etc etc. it's a cherry-picking ad.
2) when you're the market leader as Apple is, you dont run ads responding to your challengers. only challengers call out market leaders.
Another Pro Tip: Truth is Truth. Got my first Apple //c in July, 1985 in a warehouse sale in Eden Prairie, Minnesota. Have purchased more than 40 in the interim, and all of them but one Mac II still work in case you're curious. My short life here on AI is a result lurking for years and being on MacRumors since 2003, and a couple other beloved sites now extinct. Left because of trolls. I appreciate your positivity toward Apple products, and up until a year or so ago I was right there with you. But I have to call it the way I see it. I'm still an Apple guy, but these recent releases have done nothing to advance the cause. It's been a series of unforced errors.
Of course the Microsoft ads are selective and misleading; that doesn't mean they're not occupying the public's imagination, as you must be aware from the comments here on AI. When you offer nothing to counter that mindshare for almost a year now, you're going to lose. Consumers are not techies---they assume it's all true. And please understand, that new Surface device is a hideous, erector set industrial design, but it's something no one else has. Why not run iPad Pro ads? Pencil, Office apps, etc. Do something to show you still have a pulse.
Of course you don't ever have to respond tit for tat to a competitor; but in a world where Apple sales are shrinking, you have to be much more productive and visible than they have been. It's not like they can't afford it.
Apple does, of course, run ads showcasing its products and what they do. theyre published on here all the time. what they dont do is run ads that directly relate to a competitor's ads or product line.
the recent release are nothing to be ashamed of. I'm sorry you've turned negative/concerned/doomed/whatever, but I'm firmly in the camp that says thats inside your head. my 2014 rMBP is the finest computer I've ever owned, and it just got even better now for 2016. i can think of no spin that would make me believe it somehow faltered because dongles. ditto for the iPhone -- the iPhone 7 is the finest cell phone I've ever owned, and is really the finest of any of the flagship smart phones (it doesnt blow up, and it has water seals). likewise i cant think of any tablet id want to trade my iPad for. best in class.
the "faltering" releases are just negative narrative put forth by haters and tech sites looking for clickbait headlines and faux controversies. aka Nerd Rage.
You just blew the minds of every serial Apple complainer on the internet. Although this will surely not satisfy that user who feels that his/her personal use case should be everyone's personal use case.
Yes! Emphasis added.
I just don't see 'pent up demand' as being a sufficient motivator for record orders of a book that on its face obviously now lacks 'Pro' features that people supposedly need. 'This MBP dropped features I use and need but I'll spend >$1000 anyway' just doesn't play.
And I'd expect a slowdown in the purchase of most any major computing product from any manufacture after six months.
My guess is that more users will be happy with this MBP than not, and that buyers' remorse will not be anywhere nearly as widespread as some people expect/hope.
Apple should have kept one previous model 15", kept its feature set and added Ethernet, souped it up, 32G RAM and battery life be damned, and sold it as the Mac Book PRO, and renamed all the others MacBooks.
I don't need a such a Mac, but there are still those who do. Make the Pro label really means something. Doing that would open up Apple to all the 'Apple admits...' click-bait articles. Apple could weather that teapot tempest.
Not exactly your "keep a previous model", but there is precedent for Apple reinstating a port they removed from a laptop. In the Fall of 2008 Apple dropped FW from the MacBook. Supposedly Steve Jobs later stated it was because there wasn't a need for it anymore. Less than a year later, much sooner than their normal product refresh, Apple put FW back on the MacBook. The point being that sometimes Apple can be a bit too aggressive with it's minimalist designs (buttonless shuffle, anyone?).
Do I think Apple will return any ports lost with this MBP revision? Unlikely. If for no other reason that they've used the absence of these ports to reduce the thinness of the MBP to the point that they would likely need a complete redesign and retooling of the production lines to put anything back in the design. Returning FW to the MacBook design was trivial by comparison. So even if there was strong evidence that the removal of the ports was premature, Apple has backed themselves into a corner and for better or worse there is no turning back.
Also, FYI...in case folks weren't already aware, Apple still sells the 2015 MBPs, so they clearly knew/suspected that the lack of ports might be an issue for some. But the models they still sell are the integrated graphics only models, no discrete graphics. If they had simply upgraded the CPU/GPU of those models with the 2016 options I'd likely have purchased one. If they had also swapped the TB 2 ports for TB3 my order would already be placed.
"The card was excised because of the "path forward" with more generic physical card readers, or the growing implementation of wireless transfer.
Schiller says that the 3.5mm headphone jack was retained for professionals with audio gear that do not have wireless solutions, and still need the jack for macOS."
So, the "professional" solution to mass storage is wireless, but professionals don't have access to BT headphones. It's getting deep in the spin room.
People keep forgetting that the jack on the MacBook Pro is optical too capable of high sample rate multichannel I/O, which is definitely still a useful pro feature. And while wireless is great for convenient access to huge, reasonably fast mass storage, etc., the professional solution for *really* fast directly connected local mass storage is via those multiple thunderbolt 3 ports. I don't think another laptop with more raw IO capability than the new 15" has ever been available, though that's not to say others didn't have a higher number of various, slower ports which happened to be more convenient for whatever the connection of the moment required. Given time I expect wireless and the C interface will simplify things to a better point than ever, though that time may not be in the lifespan of this model for some people.
Are we sure about that? The tech specs of the old models always said that the port was both analog and digital. The tech specs page on Apple's web site for the 2016 does not make this statement. It only says there is a headphone jack. This leads me to believe that optical output is no longer supported.
Comments
I'm somewhat persuaded by this argument. But then again, I was also persuaded by the argument that phablets are too big to be useful -- and now I own an iPhone 7+. But overall.... yeah, I think I buy it.
My guess is that the exec team at Apple probably do have a very good sense of the market. I think their problem is that they haven't figured out a way to serve anything more than about 10 to 20% of any given market (assuming we use broad definitions of markets, that is) while still maintaining their quality standards.
My concern is that they aren't even interested in figuring out how to serve a bigger share of the market. Instead, they seem more interested in carefully expelling one group of users in favor of another. With that approach they will eventually alienate a lot of people.
at the time of the original mac did they expect the iPhone to become this? of course not. at the time of the iphone and ipad inceptions? absolutely i think that. in fact if you read the original mac vision doc (by Jef Raskin) it's for a sealed appliance computer for the person in the street (PITS) that runs about $500 and is not modal. it basically describes an ipad:
http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=Diagnostic_Port.txt
http://web.stanford.edu/dept/SUL/sites/mac/primary/docs/bom/anthrophilic.html
- This is an outline for a computer designed for the Person In The Street (or, to abbreviate: the PITS); one that will be truly pleasant to use, that will require the user to do nothing that will threaten his or her perverse delight in being able to say: "I don't know the first thing about computers"
- The computer must be in one lump.
- There must not be additional ROMS, RAMS, boards or accessories except those that can be understood by the PITS as a separate appliance
- Seeing the guts is taboo. Things in sockets is taboo
- There must not be a plethora of configurations. It is better to offer a variety of case colors than to have variable amounts of memory.
- And you get ten points if you can eliminate the power cord.
- It would be best if it were to have a battery that could keep it running for at least two hours when fully charged.
- The system must not have modes or levels. The user always knows where he or she is because there is only one place to be.
...Raskin even got the ipad's price right:
- The end-user cost for this machine should be $500 or less
but it tickles me to read this:
- It is better to offer a variety of case colors than to have variable amounts of memory
...he called for different iPad shell colors way back in 1979!!
Here's a very recent interview with Craig Federighi on why there's no touch screen Macs
This individual had a thoughtful response to that: https://www.macstories.net/linked/craig-federighi-on-why-there-is-no-touchscreen-mac/
"Those were carefully chosen words by Federighi. He does not say that there won't be a touchscreen Mac, instead he notes that the simple addition or "grafting" on of a touchscreen to the Mac would be a compromise. Importantly, the compromise that he refers to is not one related to ergonomics, but rather the fact that macOS is currently designed around an interaction model driven by a precise pointer.
Something to think about.
"They go in spurts of great accomplishments, followed by insular arrogance and downward spirals. Last time, they were rescued by one of their original founders. That will not happen again."
sure sounds like you're saying their arrogance will inevitably lead to a downward spiral, from which they will not be rescued or saved. IOW, doomed.
as to another of your claims -- what evidence do you put forth to suggest Apple is succumbing to "shareholder rule"? i see no evidence of that in their product design or management style. please be specific.
I didn't state they were not used. Nowhere in my comments did I say that. I said Apple is not spending much time (or any) catering to those industries. It's right there in my text, and you bolded it yourself.
The Mac is not used in the desktop gaming industry AS MUCH as I would like. I would like to see it used more because I want to stop relying on Windows for gaming. The general reasoning for poor Mac representation in desktop gaming is that Mac GPUs aren't cutting edge enough. But it's there and it's possible (I played all of Half-Life 2 on the MacBook Pro 3,1, which suicided from heat fatigue).
iOS, however, is a very different story. It seems to be upsetting all portable gaming platforms, much to Nintendo and Sony's chagrin. You do need a Mac to develop for iOS. The slower your compiler goes, the more the project will cost. So it behoves Apple to make powerful developer machines at least.
No one is asking for turnkey solutions from Apple for these industries; many people ARE asking for professional grade computers to put into the core of such solutions. Computers that aren't compromised by laptop components or shorted on available connectivity and power. Apple isn't making those.
Of course the Microsoft ads are selective and misleading; that doesn't mean they're not occupying the public's imagination, as you must be aware from the comments here on AI. When you offer nothing to counter that mindshare for almost a year now, you're going to lose. Consumers are not techies---they assume it's all true. And please understand, that new Surface device is a hideous, erector set industrial design, but it's something no one else has. Why not run iPad Pro ads? Pencil, Office apps, etc. Do something to show you still have a pulse.
Of course you don't ever have to respond tit for tat to a competitor; but in a world where Apple sales are shrinking, you have to be much more productive and visible than they have been. It's not like they can't afford it.
No, Apple has been quite successful without trying to capture the majority of the market. With each new announcement, update, or product release, it seems the message boards fill up with commentary that (in some cases intentionally, I'm convinced) misses the point of what's made Apple, well, Apple. They have no intention of producing devices that meet every price point and are customizable to be everything to everyone. Microsoft, Google, Samsung and others all pursue that model, and collectively, they do make up the majority of the market. Their products fail to be conclusively superior (and are less profitable), however, and in lots of cases end up being quite inferior and less reliable. In individual cases, of course, some people can get exactly what they want from one of those manufacturers, but for many, that supposedly perfect match really just ends up being a bundle of customized compromises.
For those who want to lament the passing of Apple, I'd suggest keeping your powder dry. If Apple ever starts chasing down every option and every last bell-and-whistle, that's when you'll be able to see the whites of their eyes.
the recent release are nothing to be ashamed of. I'm sorry you've turned negative/concerned/doomed/whatever, but I'm firmly in the camp that says thats inside your head. my 2014 rMBP is the finest computer I've ever owned, and it just got even better now for 2016. i can think of no spin that would make me believe it somehow faltered because dongles. ditto for the iPhone -- the iPhone 7 is the finest cell phone I've ever owned, and is really the finest of any of the flagship smart phones (it doesnt blow up, and it has water seals). likewise i cant think of any tablet id want to trade my iPad for. best in class.
the "faltering" releases are just negative narrative put forth by haters and tech sites looking for clickbait headlines and faux controversies. aka Nerd Rage.
Do I think Apple will return any ports lost with this MBP revision? Unlikely. If for no other reason that they've used the absence of these ports to reduce the thinness of the MBP to the point that they would likely need a complete redesign and retooling of the production lines to put anything back in the design. Returning FW to the MacBook design was trivial by comparison. So even if there was strong evidence that the removal of the ports was premature, Apple has backed themselves into a corner and for better or worse there is no turning back.
Also, FYI...in case folks weren't already aware, Apple still sells the 2015 MBPs, so they clearly knew/suspected that the lack of ports might be an issue for some. But the models they still sell are the integrated graphics only models, no discrete graphics. If they had simply upgraded the CPU/GPU of those models with the 2016 options I'd likely have purchased one. If they had also swapped the TB 2 ports for TB3 my order would already be placed.