Aw's move by Apple. This SHOULD shut up most of the complaints, but of course it won't.
It's not like Apple is selling $500 laptops. There's two ways to look at this:
The first is that if someone is buying a laptop that starts at $2400, they should't be complaining about having to buy some adapters, even if they're overpriced and that if you're a pro, technology advances and the investment is the price of doing business.
The other way to look at it is that if someone is spending between $2400 and $4300 (for the MBP with all options except for application software and AppleCare), Apple shouldn't have cheaped out and they should have provided 2 to 4 adapters in the box of the customer's choosing. The price of four adapters/cables is as much as a cheap PC.
And then my cost of ownership goes up because I can't replace the battery, expand memory or replace the SSD myself. Or, if I Iive with a 256GB SSD, I've got to get a ton of external storage for pro-level photos and video and live with the hassle of not having every file with me when I'm out of the home/office.
This is another example of Apple labeling something "pro" and then not understanding the workflow of their pro customers. They did that with FinalCutPro and they did it when they moved away from the tower configuration of the MacPro.
Every time Apple switches ports, they tell the market how their new choices are the greatest and how they want lboth manufacturers and consumers to commit to that port. Then after a few years, they change their minds and they move on to something else. Did they really need to drop Mag-safe? What about all the people who bought extra power supplies to keep at home/office, etc.? HDMI is ubiquitous on TVs and receivers and the cables have become inexpensive, but now I've got to buy an adapter that costs ten times what the cable cost?
What was Apple's rationale for going solely to USB-C? Was it because they truly think this port is the future and that the accessory market will fully move to that port and that it provides technological advantages? Or was it really because of Ive's anal-obsessiveness over thinness and not wanting to look at different sized/shaped ports on the side of the machine? What drives me crazy is that Apple wants the machine to have this superior industrial design so that it looks great in photos and in ads, but they have no problem with users having to stick a bunch of dongles and adapters on the thing. It's the same with the iPhone and the obsession with thinness, but then we have to put it in a case because it can't survive a fall. So few are really seeing and feeling the thinness anyway. Sometimes I think people at Apple don't actually use the products they produce in the real world.
So, IMO, criticism is warranted. If Apple wants my money, they're going to have to do a bit better. I hate using PCs at work, but I'm not spending $4K to $5K on my next computer and I don't want to feel like I have less than what I have today. So as much as I hate Windows, my next laptop might actually be a Windows machine. And I've been an Apple customer for 35 years.
Ok, very good comment, especially your remark about Jony Ive, when will he appear on stage? I do think that profit maximization (and the hot breath of the shareholder) is getting the better of Apple. Its all money money money, and Apple holds their customers at ransom by disabling all upgrade options so they cannot expand the life of the computers and have to dig very deep to get all MBs needed.
This is why Apple is holding back the ARM; if they expand RAM beyond 4GB (and have enough memory pins on the Ax die to support that) board modders will find a way to connect a TB or so external RAM and iPads and iPhones can be used - or have a second life - as regular computers.
That was actually a stupid and gross comment he made about Ive. And he should never appear on stage. That's absolutely not his remit, and you should know that.
You may not agree with his decisions, but you should acknowledge what's behind them. Example: one of the requirements of a portable machine is that it be rugged enough to survive drops and bumps. Upgradability means points of weakness, thus all the adhesive and the hermetic sealing. It's not about new model upsell, or what would be the same thing, planned obsolescence. Why would they make them so durable if that were so?
Apple's laptops are not rugged enough to survive drops. Believe me on this. If you suffer a drop - start praying. Upgradability has nothing to do with 'points of weakness'. Where on earth did you hear that? If your connections are good... On the contrary, if your laptop doesn't survive the drop, hermetic sealing and glue mean you lose accessibility to get in and locate the problem. Accessibility together with user upgradeable parts, extends the life of the machine both in terms of lifespan and usefulness.
I didn't hear that, I figured it out. Why does modern manufacturing practice make things more and more sealed and non-user serviceable? Answer: to make them more foolproof. Who are the fools? Answer: the user.
I"m not saying that Jony Ive thinks we're fools, by the way, just that as an honest designer, he's resorting to this design for the benefit of the product, and thus the user. I prefer anything I use to be fixable with my own hands and I still rebuild my own VW engines, but I realize that this is not the trend of the wider world. So I let it go and don't carp about my wife's Toyota. And I don't blame Apple if my phone breaks if I drop it, either. I know they tried.
But the problem is related to your comments on day by day use: the new MBP is almost useless today. Without a handful of dongles, it can't live in today's world where memory sticks, external drives and devices wanting power to charge want USB-A, projectors want VGA, monitors want Displayport, SD Cards want .. well USB-A for a card reader, and so on. And perhaps a Lightning port for headphones too ;-)
In two or three years, this design is going to look really smart but, in the meantime, the old interfaces are essential. So the dongles are essential (literally). So the dongles should have been in the box, particularly as they are throw-away items when the USB-C future arrives. There is precedent for this with the iPhone 7 and headphones (and with the very first MacBook Air that introduced new interface standards, there were two dongles in the box).
This isn't so much an issue of cost as principle, of Apple's comprehension of its customers' needs and the fact that it is selling an incomplete product. That's disappointing or deceptive, according to your world-view. So I welcome the price cut (the MBP was expensive enough!) but I remain disappointed that Apple got into this position.
You realize everything you said here could have been said in 1999 about the new PowerMacs and PowerBooks.
The world is different now than it was in 1999, the standardisation attempts largely succeeded.
How do you figure? There are at least as many standard connectors now, if not more, than there were in 1999. And VGA is still in wide spread use.
The world is different now than it was in 1999, the standardisation attempts largely succeeded.
How do you figure? There are at least as many standard connectors now, if not more, than there were in 1999. And VGA is still in wide spread use.
A connecter still in use doens't mean that newer standards haven't succeeded. You talk about VGA still being widespread, but would you call HDMi a failure or narrowspread? How about the success of the USB protocol or the USB-A port interface? USB-C will that ahead one giant step. There is still widespread use of old mainframes, but that doesn't mean Windows, macOS, Android, or iOS aren't successful or the standard.
This is turning out to be one of the worst Apple product releases in a long time, and I say this as someone who had the misfortune of purchasing a MacIIvx back in the day:
I know that fellow is no Apple fan, but what I appreciate about him is (1) his detailed reasons for his criticism of Apple products which has nothing to do with a love for Windows, and (2) his brutal honesty. And I'm a guy who has never purchased a Windows machine ever, and have used Macs since my 128k in 1984. I've also owned AAPL since 1999 and never sold a single share.
Seriously, after watching his video, I am inclined to just buy the last version 2015 MacBook Pro. It's got a good keyboard, all the ports you need, SD slot, SSD and Retina display. It's what the Oct. 2016 MBP should have been, by and large. It's a horrible crying shame what Apple has done to what once was a globally loved powerhouse of a notebook. It doesn't matter that USB-C may be ubiquitous in the future. We need usability for today. And Apple's attempt to push USB-C forward by this "let's eliminate all other ports" thinking will either (a) work or (b) result in many people fleeing the Mac platform.
^^^ A "horrible crying shame" what's happening to people's nervous systems over this here Donglegate.
By the way, I don't like this thing of calling any scandal sideshow a "gate," and don't much like word "dongle" for the useful "adapter." The word conveys no respect, maybe only contempt. Not something that makes your day when you really need it, or just makes things work together like the cable it's attached to. So, Donglegate. I like it.
Anyway, this guy found a defect in the MacBook Pro that Apple just spent three years on and then shipped to pros like him, a defect that somehow missed Apple's testing, a real show-stopper of a defect. It turns out that WiFi doesn't work when you have a microscope plugged into one of the USB ports!
Apple, stop the presses! Shut down the lines! Your new MacBook is junk!
That's what I learned in the first five minutes of the video. That's about all I could watch anyway.
It turns out that WiFi doesn't work when you have a microscope plugged into one of the USB ports!
It sounded like it's a problem with the Open Broadcaster Studio software, not a critical design flaw with the MBP logic board design or the inclusion of USB-C ports.
Being of sound mind (and sexy body) I decided to check out a hunch that OBS is one of those apps that requires you to download a DMG, use and installer package, and input your admin account credentials to install the software. What I found not only confirmed what my hypothesis, but also led to additional information as to why his browser wouldn't load websites. There's a damn browser plugin! Not an extension, a plug-in.
Did he ever say how he set up that MBP after he got it, checked to see if there are bugs with that version of the macOS compared to the other MBP where it works without issue, or uninstall and reinstall the app, per normal troubleshooting of wonky software with archaic setups? But that's all moot, because you don't use production SW on new HW or OSes until you've properly vetted them because of potential bugs in the software.
i came back here to add that maybe lorin schultz is right in his earlier post, that Apple might have anticipated this adapter "crisis" by doing some kind of customer hand-holding, not being sarcastic, in some way to acknowledge the hassle that the new ports will cause with peoples' setups. What do you think? Would it have made things more sane, or would it have just stirred up more hostility by the apparent admission of imperfection? A complex PR problem.
i came back here to add that maybe lorin schultz is right in his earlier post, that Apple might have anticipated this adapter "crisis" by doing some kind of customer hand-holding, not being sarcastic, in some way to acknowledge the hassle that the new ports will cause with peoples' setups. What do you think? Would it have made things more sane, or would it have just stirred up more hostility by the apparent admission of imperfection? A complex PR problem.
No matter what Apple did people would complain. It's like pulling off a Band-Aid on a child, the kids that cry will do so whether you do it fast or slow, so you might as well rip that sucker off quick.
There's certainly a valid argument for, say, having a USB-C/TB3 and USB-A port on each side. This would allow for power on either side and up to two 5K displays, but it wouldn't affect cost of internal components since you'd still need the same controllers, and it might cause an even higher increase in the price since we're talking about a thicker chassis which will cost more in materials, affect weight, storing, shipping, and likely lead to a much shorter market life for that engineering design with precision CNC milling, since USB-C is moving very fast. That short-term solution wouldn't make sense, and people would complain about it, and it's possible that it would be pushed out of threshold which would mean some innovation being canned from this design, like the better display, Touch Bar, faster SSD and/or trackpad. I don't want those to go away!
The facile argument is that you need to let people catch up to USB-C gradually. Since there is no master switch that will cause all other Macs and their accessories to stop working, this boils down to entitled, hypocritical pricks that both dislike change and hate not having what looks like the latest tech. If one isn't ready for USB-C then don't buy this Mac, or don't buy it just yet. In a year R&D costs will probably cause a big drop in the prices like we've seen in the past (I made a short list of 15" MBPs in post #149). If one is against Apple's profit margins then there's no reason to ever bitch on this site because none of Apple's major products will fit their needs as a customer as they will always feel that a successful company making a profit is somehow ripping them off without consideration for what that product can do to for them.
They've set a casing design that will likely be with Mac users for the next 3–6 years, not to mention a major push for new innovations. That Touch Bar with a T1 chip running bridgeOS (built from watchOS, which was built from iOS which was built from macOS), with both Apple Pay and Touch ID, and the Xcode APIs and integration with the OS can't be cheap. I think all that's brilliant and exactly the synergy I expect from Apple, but I'm perfectly fine with others believing it's a gimmick (not unlike people said the GUI and mouse, and iPhone were gimmicks). If I see anything fault with Apple's line-up it's that they don't have a non-Touch bar version of the 15" MBP, but we'd be in error if we thought they didn't consider that and decide against it after considerably more thought and data points in which to make a determination.
Supplementing my previous post about why to get an older 2015 MBP instead of the Oct. 2016 models, this guy nails my own sentiments exactly...
If you didn't watch the video I linked for you in my previous post, give it a watch. There's even part two. More than 2 hours! Perhaps the biggest revelation from that other video was the fact that the new keyboard is noisy. The guy records multiple laptops including the new model and its a night-and-day difference. WOW. It sounds like 3 times the noise of the old MBP. And on top of that, the key travel remains the same as the MacBook. I've tried the MacBook, and it's really like slamming your fingers across the table. But with the new MBP, it's like slamming your fingers across the table in a noisy way.
Ack!
I don't necessarily agree with the notion that "no matter what Apple did people would still complain." That is both right and wrong. People may complain no matter what, but I doubt it would be to the degree we are seeing now. Had Apple added the TouchBar and USB-C without killing other ports and the SD slot, a lot of the bad press we see now would be near non-existent. The sheer number of complaints AND negative reviews by the media is truly unprecedented for the MBP line. Are all these people, myself included, really wrong? Are we just a bunch of moaners, or do we in fact have legitimate gripes? I would say many of the things I am seeing and reading are legitimate. And it really saddens me to say it. But I think we should be honest.
I don't necessarily agree with the notion that "no matter what Apple did people would still complain." That is both right and wrong. People may complain no matter what, but I doubt it would be to the degree we are seeing now. Had Apple added the TouchBar and USB-C without killing other ports and the SD slot, a lot of the bad press we see now would be near non-existent. The sheer number of complaints AND negative reviews by the media is truly unprecedented for the MBP line. Are all these people, myself included, really wrong? Are we just a bunch of moaners, or do we in fact have legitimate gripes? I would say many of the things I am seeing and reading are legitimate. And it really saddens me to say it. But I think we should be honest.
1) All I've heard from before this event was how the MBP hadn't changed. When it's the same, people want new innovations. When it's new innovations, people want things to stay how they were. It's happened before, it's happening now, and it'll happen again.
2) How do they keep thicker ports on this chassis design? You can't even do that with the TARDIS because it's only bigger on the inside, not the outside. Would you really be fine with it being thicker, heavier, behind on innovation, and cost more as a result?
3) Yes, you're wrong if you believe Apple owes you anything, if you use any statement where you declare how much of a "loyal customer" you are, and other such nonsense. There's 9 pages of comments, so I have no idea what you have or haven't said to that extent. Regarding legitimate gripes, those come down to whether this product is for you or not. You vote with your wallet and you've said that the 2015 model fits your needs better. That's perfectly fine, but those saying that this is a piece of shit, that Apple lost their way, or that Tim Cook is cock sucking fag who needs to be fired (paraphrased from a disgusting tweet) can fuck off.
4) Yes, these complaints have happened before and will happen again. This is nothing compared to switching to Lightning, which was and is a proprietary port interface standard that didn't have over a year on the market with hundreds of companies supplies thousands of products to customers. Even the removal of the ODD had more complaints.
5) As for the keyboard sound and less travel than the old key mechanism, is that something that is worse or just different. If it's worse, and it seems that it is, is it so bad that it more than cancels all the new innovations? I had the 12" MacBook. I never got used to the keys, but it wasn't from the travel. These are also Gen 2 Butterfly keys that I head has more travel, yet you say "remains the same." Which is it. The potential sound of the keyboard is a concern for me, but it's definitely not a deal breaker; it's mostly an oddity since Apple has worked so hard to keep the noise down in other areas.
1) You can add new innovations without sacrificing a lot of key functionality. It's called "balance." Some thing Apple's decision was balanced, others not.
2) I personally don't mind a thicker and heavier machine that remains a powerhouse of functionality. I prefer the 15" to the 13" for that reason.
3) I don't understand why anyone would think the topic is about "owing" anyone anything. In my mind, it's about disappointment over what could have been. It's about lost functionality. It's about dongles. It's about the new keyboard. It's about RAM. We CAN be disappointed without criticizing Time Cook or using profanity.
4) Just because complaints have occurred before does not mean the current complaints are the same as in the past. I am seeing many more complaints and much more negative press on these new machines than in years past with regard to the MBP. I myself have not felt this negative about a MPB release in recent memory. Pushing USB-C is understandable, but there is still a need to retain some legacy functionality, and no that does not automatically dictate dongles. Again, I am in the 15" market, not the 13". I want power and ports over portability. Most people like the 13" because they want "small and light." As such, they are willing to sacrifice. But I am in the market for the 15 and so I am not so willing to sacrifice. What Apple should have done was offer more ports and the SD slot in the 15" and then kept the 13" as-is. I could handle that because I was never in the market for the 13 in the first place. Plus, the 15 has much more room to accommodate legacy ports and the SD slot.
5) It's not just about limited keyboard travel. Go back to my earlier post where I posted a video that was over 1 hour long. That guy records the sound of the keyboard. The new keyboard is loud. It's on order of 3 times louder than older MBPs. That is something else that needs to be considered before buying the Oct. 2016 MBP.
In a nutshell, what I find in a lot of forums is people who complain, and then people who are mad at the complainers, wondering why those people aren't clones of themselves. Just because someone may like the 13 doesn't mean that someone know what appeals to the people who like the 15. And even if some among you like the 15, who is to say what you are willing to sacrifice is also what I am willing to sacrifice? We are all different. If you want to accommodate a broad number of people, leaving in key functionality tends to work well. Since that was removed, there are a number of people naturally upset. Those who really didn't care much about that power and expandability anyway won't be so upset, and if they are upset, they unfortunately tend to direct their frustration toward people who are complaining about lost functionality.
If someone wants to complain about lost functionality in a forum like this one, I certainly won't be the one beating on their head. If anything, I try to be friendly and console them. Telling them, "you have no legitimate complaints" isn't helping matters. Even if you disagree strongly with me for saying this, let it be known that I don't hate you or anyone else. It's not about me and you personally. It's about what we want to buy versus what we can buy. It's nothing personal.
How about people put their money where there mouth is and don't buy these machines if they're so terrible. You want Apple to change then stop buying their stuff. That's the only way they get the message.
Awesome move by Apple. This SHOULD shut up most of the complaints, but of course it won't.
It's not like Apple is selling $500 laptops. There's two ways to look at this:
The first is that if someone is buying a laptop that starts at $2400, they should't be complaining about having to buy some adapters, even if they're overpriced and that if you're a pro, technology advances and the investment is the price of doing business.
The other way to look at it is that if someone is spending between $2400 and $4300 (for the MBP with all options except for application software and AppleCare), Apple shouldn't have cheaped out and they should have provided 2 to 4 adapters in the box of the customer's choosing. The price of four adapters/cables is as much as a cheap PC.
And then my cost of ownership goes up because I can't replace the battery, expand memory or replace the SSD myself. Or, if I Iive with a 256GB SSD, I've got to get a ton of external storage for pro-level photos and video and live with the hassle of not having every file with me when I'm out of the home/office.
This is another example of Apple labeling something "pro" and then not understanding the workflow of their pro customers. They did that with FinalCutPro and they did it when they moved away from the tower configuration of the MacPro.
Every time Apple switches ports, they tell the market how their new choices are the greatest and how they want both manufacturers and consumers to commit to that port. Then after a few years, they change their minds and they move on to something else. Did they really need to drop Mag-safe? What about all the people who bought extra power supplies to keep at home/office, etc.? HDMI is ubiquitous on TVs and receivers and the cables have become inexpensive, but now I've got to buy an adapter that costs ten times what the cable cost?
What was Apple's rationale for going solely to USB-C? Was it because they truly think this port is the future and that the accessory market will fully move to that port and that it provides technological advantages? Or was it really because of Ive's anal-obsessiveness over thinness and not wanting to look at different sized/shaped ports on the side of the machine? What drives me crazy is that Apple wants the machine to have this superior industrial design so that it looks great in photos and in ads, but they have no problem with users having to stick a bunch of dongles and adapters on the thing. It's the same with the iPhone and the obsession with thinness, but then we have to put it in a case because it can't survive a fall. So few are really seeing and feeling the thinness anyway. Sometimes I think people at Apple don't actually use the products they produce in the real world.
So, IMO, criticism is warranted. If Apple wants my money, they're going to have to do a bit better. I hate using PCs at work, but I'm not spending $4K to $5K on my next computer and I don't want to feel like I have less than what I have today. So as much as I hate Windows, my next laptop might actually be a Windows machine. And I've been an Apple customer for 35 years.
I think many of your comments are warranted. The only observation I have is when calculating value...most Apple products I purchase last years beyond the Windows counterpart. In business this makes up for a lot. Also my Apple users require significantly less support. Currently we have 1 Apple support ticket for every 20 Windows. That is huge.
Aw's move by Apple. This SHOULD shut up most of the complaints, but of course it won't.
It's not like Apple is selling $500 laptops. There's two ways to look at this:
The first is that if someone is buying a laptop that starts at $2400, they should't be complaining about having to buy some adapters, even if they're overpriced and that if you're a pro, technology advances and the investment is the price of doing business.
The other way to look at it is that if someone is spending between $2400 and $4300 (for the MBP with all options except for application software and AppleCare), Apple shouldn't have cheaped out and they should have provided 2 to 4 adapters in the box of the customer's choosing. The price of four adapters/cables is as much as a cheap PC.
And then my cost of ownership goes up because I can't replace the battery, expand memory or replace the SSD myself. Or, if I Iive with a 256GB SSD, I've got to get a ton of external storage for pro-level photos and video and live with the hassle of not having every file with me when I'm out of the home/office.
This is another example of Apple labeling something "pro" and then not understanding the workflow of their pro customers. They did that with FinalCutPro and they did it when they moved away from the tower configuration of the MacPro.
Every time Apple switches ports, they tell the market how their new choices are the greatest and how they want lboth manufacturers and consumers to commit to that port. Then after a few years, they change their minds and they move on to something else. Did they really need to drop Mag-safe? What about all the people who bought extra power supplies to keep at home/office, etc.? HDMI is ubiquitous on TVs and receivers and the cables have become inexpensive, but now I've got to buy an adapter that costs ten times what the cable cost?
What was Apple's rationale for going solely to USB-C? Was it because they truly think this port is the future and that the accessory market will fully move to that port and that it provides technological advantages? Or was it really because of Ive's anal-obsessiveness over thinness and not wanting to look at different sized/shaped ports on the side of the machine? What drives me crazy is that Apple wants the machine to have this superior industrial design so that it looks great in photos and in ads, but they have no problem with users having to stick a bunch of dongles and adapters on the thing. It's the same with the iPhone and the obsession with thinness, but then we have to put it in a case because it can't survive a fall. So few are really seeing and feeling the thinness anyway. Sometimes I think people at Apple don't actually use the products they produce in the real world.
So, IMO, criticism is warranted. If Apple wants my money, they're going to have to do a bit better. I hate using PCs at work, but I'm not spending $4K to $5K on my next computer and I don't want to feel like I have less than what I have today. So as much as I hate Windows, my next laptop might actually be a Windows machine. And I've been an Apple customer for 35 years.
Ok, very good comment, especially your remark about Jony Ive, when will he appear on stage? I do think that profit maximization (and the hot breath of the shareholder) is getting the better of Apple. Its all money money money, and Apple holds their customers at ransom by disabling all upgrade options so they cannot expand the life of the computers and have to dig very deep to get all MBs needed.
This is why Apple is holding back the ARM; if they expand RAM beyond 4GB (and have enough memory pins on the Ax die to support that) board modders will find a way to connect a TB or so external RAM and iPads and iPhones can be used - or have a second life - as regular computers.
That was actually a stupid and gross comment he made about Ive. And he should never appear on stage. That's absolutely not his remit, and you should know that.
You may not agree with his decisions, but you should acknowledge what's behind them. Example: one of the requirements of a portable machine is that it be rugged enough to survive drops and bumps. Upgradability means points of weakness, thus all the adhesive and the hermetic sealing. It's not about new model upsell, or what would be the same thing, planned obsolescence. Why would they make them so durable if that were so?
Apple's laptops are not rugged enough to survive drops. Believe me on this. If you suffer a drop - start praying. Upgradability has nothing to do with 'points of weakness'. Where on earth did you hear that? If your connections are good... On the contrary, if your laptop doesn't survive the drop, hermetic sealing and glue mean you lose accessibility to get in and locate the problem. Accessibility together with user upgradeable parts, extends the life of the machine both in terms of lifespan and usefulness.
I didn't hear that, I figured it out. Why does modern manufacturing practice make things more and more sealed and non-user serviceable? Answer: to make them more foolproof. Who are the fools? Answer: the user.
I"m not saying that Jony Ive thinks we're fools, by the way, just that as an honest designer, he's resorting to this design for the benefit of the product, and thus the user. I prefer anything I use to be fixable with my own hands and I still rebuild my own VW engines, but I realize that this is not the trend of the wider world. So I let it go and don't carp about my wife's Toyota. And I don't blame Apple if my phone breaks if I drop it, either. I know they tried.
Glue is used to shave mm off the thinness of the machine. Making them inaccessible only serves Apple, not the user. If you want better specs they have to be installed at the factory. You have to buy the components from Apple at their inflated prices and at the time of order. Component stock is now down to less than six years (it used to be ten years). The thermal design of all MacBooks is questionable. The thermal design of the iMac actually reduces it's lifespan.
Jony Ive's design is NOT for the benefit of the machine and far less the user. He has an obsession with certain things, thinness being one of them. His designs are for him. iOS and Mac OSX have awful interfaces and experts in the field rightly point the finger at Apple for not implementing their own guidelines. We are not asking for everyone to be able to fix their own machines. We are asking for easy access to battery, RAM and SSD and for those elements to be user upgradable.
Most important price cut needed is for new 13.3" mackbook pro BASE model. Nw macbook pro has Inferior spec than equivalent windows laptop but asking twice the price.
Can you show us this Windows laptop that has an equivalent build quality, display color accuracy and brightness, SSD performance, and other components for 1/2 the price?
Last year I bought HP laptop for my son in college for under $800. This year I needed to upgrade my daughter's 13" 2012 macbook pro but with this price tag, can't pull triger to buy..Will wait till it comes affordable. My kids are college kids like millions out their and they need decent affordable machine not high performance..If Apple don't make as much on their base model, still should offer them at attractive/affordable price point. Apple can ask for more $ for upgrades and that is acceptable to all of us. Apple 13.3" MacBook Pro (Silver, Late 2016) - $1,499.00 2.0 GHz Intel Core I5-6360U Dual-Core 8GB of 1866 MHz RAM | 256GB PCIe SSD 13.3" 2560 x 1600 Retina Display Integrated Intel Iris Graphics 540 802.11AC, Bluetooth vs HP ENVY x360 2-in-1 Touch screen Laptop(sliver, late 2015) - $799.99 - rebate = less than $700 Product number: L8S90AV • 15.6" IPS Full HD(1920x1080) Touchscreen • 2.50GHz Intel Core i7-6500U • 8GB DDR3L • 1TB 5400 rpm Hard Drive • NVIDIA GeForce 930M 2GB Discrete Graphics • Intel 802.11ac WLAN and Bluetooth(R) [2x2]
How about people put their money where there mouth is and don't buy these machines if they're so terrible. You want Apple to change then stop buying their stuff. That's the only way they get the message.
I agree. That's what I'm doing and have been doing since June. I have no desire to move to Windows and have a lot of software that I'd have to get over to the platform but I'm never going to get one of these new machines at current prices and will not buy old hardware at current prices either. With hindsight, it's clear that the Mac just isn't that important to Apple any more. If it were we wouldn't being going into Christmas with so much of the Mac line stale and expensive.
I don't necessarily agree with the notion that "no matter what Apple did people would still complain." That is both right and wrong. People may complain no matter what, but I doubt it would be to the degree we are seeing now. Had Apple added the TouchBar and USB-C without killing other ports and the SD slot, a lot of the bad press we see now would be near non-existent. The sheer number of complaints AND negative reviews by the media is truly unprecedented for the MBP line. Are all these people, myself included, really wrong? Are we just a bunch of moaners, or do we in fact have legitimate gripes? I would say many of the things I am seeing and reading are legitimate. And it really saddens me to say it. But I think we should be honest.
1) All I've heard from before this event was how the MBP hadn't changed. When it's the same, people want new innovations. When it's new innovations, people want things to stay how they were. It's happened before, it's happening now, and it'll happen again.
2) How do they keep thicker ports on this chassis design? You can't even do that with the TARDIS because it's only bigger on the inside, not the outside. Would you really be fine with it being thicker, heavier, behind on innovation, and cost more as a result?
3) Yes, you're wrong if you believe Apple owes you anything, if you use any statement where you declare how much of a "loyal customer" you are, and other such nonsense. There's 9 pages of comments, so I have no idea what you have or haven't said to that extent. Regarding legitimate gripes, those come down to whether this product is for you or not. You vote with your wallet and you've said that the 2015 model fits your needs better. That's perfectly fine, but those saying that this is a piece of shit, that Apple lost their way, or that Tim Cook is cock sucking fag who needs to be fired (paraphrased from a disgusting tweet) can fuck off.
4) Yes, these complaints have happened before and will happen again. This is nothing compared to switching to Lightning, which was and is a proprietary port interface standard that didn't have over a year on the market with hundreds of companies supplies thousands of products to customers. Even the removal of the ODD had more complaints.
5) As for the keyboard sound and less travel than the old key mechanism, is that something that is worse or just different. If it's worse, and it seems that it is, is it so bad that it more than cancels all the new innovations? I had the 12" MacBook. I never got used to the keys, but it wasn't from the travel. These are also Gen 2 Butterfly keys that I head has more travel, yet you say "remains the same." Which is it. The potential sound of the keyboard is a concern for me, but it's definitely not a deal breaker; it's mostly an oddity since Apple has worked so hard to keep the noise down in other areas.
The travel on the new keyboard is identical to the original. Thinness has nothing to do with innovation bar the thinness itself. When thinness becomes an absolute goal and you start to make big compromises to achieve it, something has gone wrong. That is what we are seeing with this new MBP. The keyboard is just one compromise. 'Noise' at Apple has also been a bit of a Jekyll and Hyde affair. Seems that it is acceptable in the eyes of Apple right now.
I don't necessarily agree with the notion that "no matter what Apple did people would still complain." That is both right and wrong. People may complain no matter what, but I doubt it would be to the degree we are seeing now. Had Apple added the TouchBar and USB-C without killing other ports and the SD slot, a lot of the bad press we see now would be near non-existent. The sheer number of complaints AND negative reviews by the media is truly unprecedented for the MBP line. Are all these people, myself included, really wrong? Are we just a bunch of moaners, or do we in fact have legitimate gripes? I would say many of the things I am seeing and reading are legitimate. And it really saddens me to say it. But I think we should be honest.
1) All I've heard from before this event was how the MBP hadn't changed. When it's the same, people want new innovations. When it's new innovations, people want things to stay how they were. It's happened before, it's happening now, and it'll happen again.
2) How do they keep thicker ports on this chassis design? You can't even do that with the TARDIS because it's only bigger on the inside, not the outside. Would you really be fine with it being thicker, heavier, behind on innovation, and cost more as a result?
3) Yes, you're wrong if you believe Apple owes you anything, if you use any statement where you declare how much of a "loyal customer" you are, and other such nonsense. There's 9 pages of comments, so I have no idea what you have or haven't said to that extent. Regarding legitimate gripes, those come down to whether this product is for you or not. You vote with your wallet and you've said that the 2015 model fits your needs better. That's perfectly fine, but those saying that this is a piece of shit, that Apple lost their way, or that Tim Cook is cock sucking fag who needs to be fired (paraphrased from a disgusting tweet) can fuck off.
4) Yes, these complaints have happened before and will happen again. This is nothing compared to switching to Lightning, which was and is a proprietary port interface standard that didn't have over a year on the market with hundreds of companies supplies thousands of products to customers. Even the removal of the ODD had more complaints.
5) As for the keyboard sound and less travel than the old key mechanism, is that something that is worse or just different. If it's worse, and it seems that it is, is it so bad that it more than cancels all the new innovations? I had the 12" MacBook. I never got used to the keys, but it wasn't from the travel. These are also Gen 2 Butterfly keys that I head has more travel, yet you say "remains the same." Which is it. The potential sound of the keyboard is a concern for me, but it's definitely not a deal breaker; it's mostly an oddity since Apple has worked so hard to keep the noise down in other areas.
The travel on the new keyboard is identical to the original. Thinness has nothing to do with innovation bar the thinness itself. When thinness becomes an absolute goal and you start to make big compromises to achieve it, something has gone wrong. That is what we are seeing with this new MBP. The keyboard is just one compromise. 'Noise' at Apple has also been a bit of a Jekyll and Hyde affair. Seems that it is acceptable in the eyes of Apple right now.
This is the biggest bunch of BS. Apple doesn't decide to go all in on USB-C or only 16GB RAM because someone on the design team says the laptop can only be so many mm thick. The laptop is as thin as it is because the company decided to go all in on USB-C and no offer desktop RAM in their portable notebook.
Right now all we have is an echo chamber of a vocal minority that haven't used these machines for 5 seconds (also we have no reviews have come out) yet already threw them in the trash. Like I said, the Marco Arments and Alex Lindseys of the world need to put their money where their mouth is. Rather than constantly bitching do something that Apple will really feel. Go hackintosh, go Windows or keep what you have and don't buy anything new. If Mac sales see a big drop Apple will get the message. But my guess is Apple is catering to the 80/90% with these machines and sales will be good. And early next year we'll see updates to the rest of the Mac line that will have hard core pro users in mind.
I think it would have been much better if Apple had announced these discounts when they introduced the machines. Tim Cook (or whoever) standing up and saying, "We recognize people still need to connect to non-USB-C devices, so we're making all Apple adapters 50% off and deeply discounting third-party USB-C devices that we sell," would have gone a long way to fostering some good will. Instead, this looks like a reactionary move to backlash. "Oh! You still need to connect to non-USB-C things? You won't buy our shiny new toy? Umm... How about a discount?"
I don't necessarily agree with the notion that "no matter what Apple did people would still complain." That is both right and wrong. People may complain no matter what, but I doubt it would be to the degree we are seeing now. Had Apple added the TouchBar and USB-C without killing other ports and the SD slot, a lot of the bad press we see now would be near non-existent. The sheer number of complaints AND negative reviews by the media is truly unprecedented for the MBP line. Are all these people, myself included, really wrong? Are we just a bunch of moaners, or do we in fact have legitimate gripes? I would say many of the things I am seeing and reading are legitimate. And it really saddens me to say it. But I think we should be honest.
1) All I've heard from before this event was how the MBP hadn't changed. When it's the same, people want new innovations. When it's new innovations, people want things to stay how they were. It's happened before, it's happening now, and it'll happen again.
2) How do they keep thicker ports on this chassis design? You can't even do that with the TARDIS because it's only bigger on the inside, not the outside. Would you really be fine with it being thicker, heavier, behind on innovation, and cost more as a result?
3) Yes, you're wrong if you believe Apple owes you anything, if you use any statement where you declare how much of a "loyal customer" you are, and other such nonsense. There's 9 pages of comments, so I have no idea what you have or haven't said to that extent. Regarding legitimate gripes, those come down to whether this product is for you or not. You vote with your wallet and you've said that the 2015 model fits your needs better. That's perfectly fine, but those saying that this is a piece of shit, that Apple lost their way, or that Tim Cook is cock sucking fag who needs to be fired (paraphrased from a disgusting tweet) can fuck off.
4) Yes, these complaints have happened before and will happen again. This is nothing compared to switching to Lightning, which was and is a proprietary port interface standard that didn't have over a year on the market with hundreds of companies supplies thousands of products to customers. Even the removal of the ODD had more complaints.
5) As for the keyboard sound and less travel than the old key mechanism, is that something that is worse or just different. If it's worse, and it seems that it is, is it so bad that it more than cancels all the new innovations? I had the 12" MacBook. I never got used to the keys, but it wasn't from the travel. These are also Gen 2 Butterfly keys that I head has more travel, yet you say "remains the same." Which is it. The potential sound of the keyboard is a concern for me, but it's definitely not a deal breaker; it's mostly an oddity since Apple has worked so hard to keep the noise down in other areas.
The travel on the new keyboard is identical to the original. Thinness has nothing to do with innovation bar the thinness itself. When thinness becomes an absolute goal and you start to make big compromises to achieve it, something has gone wrong. That is what we are seeing with this new MBP. The keyboard is just one compromise. 'Noise' at Apple has also been a bit of a Jekyll and Hyde affair. Seems that it is acceptable in the eyes of Apple right now.
This is the biggest bunch of BS. Apple doesn't decide to go all in on USB-C or only 16GB RAM because someone on the design team says the laptop can only be so many mm thick. The laptop is as thin as it is because the company decided to go all in on USB-C and no offer desktop RAM in their portable notebook.
Right now all we have is an echo chamber of a vocal minority that haven't used these machines for 5 seconds (also we have no reviews have come out) yet already threw them in the trash. Like I said, the Marco Arments and Alex Lindseys of the world need to put their money where their mouth is. Rather than constantly bitching do something that Apple will really feel. Go hackintosh, go Windows or keep what you have and don't buy anything new. If Mac sales see a big drop Apple will get the message. But my guess is Apple is catering to the 80/90% with these machines and sales will be good. And early next year we'll see updates to the rest of the Mac line that will have hard core pro users in mind.
Well said, and next year the prices will be lower by a couple hundred after the early adopters have made their contribution to paying off the R&D.
The keyboard is great, in my opinion. The feedback is more distinct, so the sensation is one of precision. You can tell there's no sideways movement.
If it really is noisier, then I suspect that is deliberately there as a feedback enhancer.
Comments
I"m not saying that Jony Ive thinks we're fools, by the way, just that as an honest designer, he's resorting to this design for the benefit of the product, and thus the user. I prefer anything I use to be fixable with my own hands and I still rebuild my own VW engines, but I realize that this is not the trend of the wider world. So I let it go and don't carp about my wife's Toyota. And I don't blame Apple if my phone breaks if I drop it, either. I know they tried.
I know that fellow is no Apple fan, but what I appreciate about him is (1) his detailed reasons for his criticism of Apple products which has nothing to do with a love for Windows, and (2) his brutal honesty. And I'm a guy who has never purchased a Windows machine ever, and have used Macs since my 128k in 1984. I've also owned AAPL since 1999 and never sold a single share.
Seriously, after watching his video, I am inclined to just buy the last version 2015 MacBook Pro. It's got a good keyboard, all the ports you need, SD slot, SSD and Retina display. It's what the Oct. 2016 MBP should have been, by and large. It's a horrible crying shame what Apple has done to what once was a globally loved powerhouse of a notebook. It doesn't matter that USB-C may be ubiquitous in the future. We need usability for today. And Apple's attempt to push USB-C forward by this "let's eliminate all other ports" thinking will either (a) work or (b) result in many people fleeing the Mac platform.
By the way, I don't like this thing of calling any scandal sideshow a "gate," and don't much like word "dongle" for the useful "adapter." The word conveys no respect, maybe only contempt. Not something that makes your day when you really need it, or just makes things work together like the cable it's attached to. So, Donglegate. I like it.
Anyway, this guy found a defect in the MacBook Pro that Apple just spent three years on and then shipped to pros like him, a defect that somehow missed Apple's testing, a real show-stopper of a defect. It turns out that WiFi doesn't work when you have a microscope plugged into one of the USB ports!
Apple, stop the presses! Shut down the lines! Your new MacBook is junk!
That's what I learned in the first five minutes of the video. That's about all I could watch anyway.
Being of sound mind (and sexy body) I decided to check out a hunch that OBS is one of those apps that requires you to download a DMG, use and installer package, and input your admin account credentials to install the software. What I found not only confirmed what my hypothesis, but also led to additional information as to why his browser wouldn't load websites. There's a damn browser plugin! Not an extension, a plug-in.
Did he ever say how he set up that MBP after he got it, checked to see if there are bugs with that version of the macOS compared to the other MBP where it works without issue, or uninstall and reinstall the app, per normal troubleshooting of wonky software with archaic setups? But that's all moot, because you don't use production SW on new HW or OSes until you've properly vetted them because of potential bugs in the software.
i came back here to add that maybe lorin schultz is right in his earlier post, that Apple might have anticipated this adapter "crisis" by doing some kind of customer hand-holding, not being sarcastic, in some way to acknowledge the hassle that the new ports will cause with peoples' setups. What do you think? Would it have made things more sane, or would it have just stirred up more hostility by the apparent admission of imperfection? A complex PR problem.
There's certainly a valid argument for, say, having a USB-C/TB3 and USB-A port on each side. This would allow for power on either side and up to two 5K displays, but it wouldn't affect cost of internal components since you'd still need the same controllers, and it might cause an even higher increase in the price since we're talking about a thicker chassis which will cost more in materials, affect weight, storing, shipping, and likely lead to a much shorter market life for that engineering design with precision CNC milling, since USB-C is moving very fast. That short-term solution wouldn't make sense, and people would complain about it, and it's possible that it would be pushed out of threshold which would mean some innovation being canned from this design, like the better display, Touch Bar, faster SSD and/or trackpad. I don't want those to go away!
The facile argument is that you need to let people catch up to USB-C gradually. Since there is no master switch that will cause all other Macs and their accessories to stop working, this boils down to entitled, hypocritical pricks that both dislike change and hate not having what looks like the latest tech. If one isn't ready for USB-C then don't buy this Mac, or don't buy it just yet. In a year R&D costs will probably cause a big drop in the prices like we've seen in the past (I made a short list of 15" MBPs in post #149). If one is against Apple's profit margins then there's no reason to ever bitch on this site because none of Apple's major products will fit their needs as a customer as they will always feel that a successful company making a profit is somehow ripping them off without consideration for what that product can do to for them.
They've set a casing design that will likely be with Mac users for the next 3–6 years, not to mention a major push for new innovations. That Touch Bar with a T1 chip running bridgeOS (built from watchOS, which was built from iOS which was built from macOS), with both Apple Pay and Touch ID, and the Xcode APIs and integration with the OS can't be cheap. I think all that's brilliant and exactly the synergy I expect from Apple, but I'm perfectly fine with others believing it's a gimmick (not unlike people said the GUI and mouse, and iPhone were gimmicks). If I see anything fault with Apple's line-up it's that they don't have a non-Touch bar version of the 15" MBP, but we'd be in error if we thought they didn't consider that and decide against it after considerably more thought and data points in which to make a determination.
If you didn't watch the video I linked for you in my previous post, give it a watch. There's even part two. More than 2 hours! Perhaps the biggest revelation from that other video was the fact that the new keyboard is noisy. The guy records multiple laptops including the new model and its a night-and-day difference. WOW. It sounds like 3 times the noise of the old MBP. And on top of that, the key travel remains the same as the MacBook. I've tried the MacBook, and it's really like slamming your fingers across the table. But with the new MBP, it's like slamming your fingers across the table in a noisy way.
Ack!
I don't necessarily agree with the notion that "no matter what Apple did people would still complain." That is both right and wrong. People may complain no matter what, but I doubt it would be to the degree we are seeing now. Had Apple added the TouchBar and USB-C without killing other ports and the SD slot, a lot of the bad press we see now would be near non-existent. The sheer number of complaints AND negative reviews by the media is truly unprecedented for the MBP line. Are all these people, myself included, really wrong? Are we just a bunch of moaners, or do we in fact have legitimate gripes? I would say many of the things I am seeing and reading are legitimate. And it really saddens me to say it. But I think we should be honest.
2) How do they keep thicker ports on this chassis design? You can't even do that with the TARDIS because it's only bigger on the inside, not the outside. Would you really be fine with it being thicker, heavier, behind on innovation, and cost more as a result?
3) Yes, you're wrong if you believe Apple owes you anything, if you use any statement where you declare how much of a "loyal customer" you are, and other such nonsense. There's 9 pages of comments, so I have no idea what you have or haven't said to that extent. Regarding legitimate gripes, those come down to whether this product is for you or not. You vote with your wallet and you've said that the 2015 model fits your needs better. That's perfectly fine, but those saying that this is a piece of shit, that Apple lost their way, or that Tim Cook is cock sucking fag who needs to be fired (paraphrased from a disgusting tweet) can fuck off.
4) Yes, these complaints have happened before and will happen again. This is nothing compared to switching to Lightning, which was and is a proprietary port interface standard that didn't have over a year on the market with hundreds of companies supplies thousands of products to customers. Even the removal of the ODD had more complaints.
5) As for the keyboard sound and less travel than the old key mechanism, is that something that is worse or just different. If it's worse, and it seems that it is, is it so bad that it more than cancels all the new innovations? I had the 12" MacBook. I never got used to the keys, but it wasn't from the travel. These are also Gen 2 Butterfly keys that I head has more travel, yet you say "remains the same." Which is it. The potential sound of the keyboard is a concern for me, but it's definitely not a deal breaker; it's mostly an oddity since Apple has worked so hard to keep the noise down in other areas.
2) I personally don't mind a thicker and heavier machine that remains a powerhouse of functionality. I prefer the 15" to the 13" for that reason.
3) I don't understand why anyone would think the topic is about "owing" anyone anything. In my mind, it's about disappointment over what could have been. It's about lost functionality. It's about dongles. It's about the new keyboard. It's about RAM. We CAN be disappointed without criticizing Time Cook or using profanity.
4) Just because complaints have occurred before does not mean the current complaints are the same as in the past. I am seeing many more complaints and much more negative press on these new machines than in years past with regard to the MBP. I myself have not felt this negative about a MPB release in recent memory. Pushing USB-C is understandable, but there is still a need to retain some legacy functionality, and no that does not automatically dictate dongles. Again, I am in the 15" market, not the 13". I want power and ports over portability. Most people like the 13" because they want "small and light." As such, they are willing to sacrifice. But I am in the market for the 15 and so I am not so willing to sacrifice. What Apple should have done was offer more ports and the SD slot in the 15" and then kept the 13" as-is. I could handle that because I was never in the market for the 13 in the first place. Plus, the 15 has much more room to accommodate legacy ports and the SD slot.
5) It's not just about limited keyboard travel. Go back to my earlier post where I posted a video that was over 1 hour long. That guy records the sound of the keyboard. The new keyboard is loud. It's on order of 3 times louder than older MBPs. That is something else that needs to be considered before buying the Oct. 2016 MBP.
In a nutshell, what I find in a lot of forums is people who complain, and then people who are mad at the complainers, wondering why those people aren't clones of themselves. Just because someone may like the 13 doesn't mean that someone know what appeals to the people who like the 15. And even if some among you like the 15, who is to say what you are willing to sacrifice is also what I am willing to sacrifice? We are all different. If you want to accommodate a broad number of people, leaving in key functionality tends to work well. Since that was removed, there are a number of people naturally upset. Those who really didn't care much about that power and expandability anyway won't be so upset, and if they are upset, they unfortunately tend to direct their frustration toward people who are complaining about lost functionality.
If someone wants to complain about lost functionality in a forum like this one, I certainly won't be the one beating on their head. If anything, I try to be friendly and console them. Telling them, "you have no legitimate complaints" isn't helping matters. Even if you disagree strongly with me for saying this, let it be known that I don't hate you or anyone else. It's not about me and you personally. It's about what we want to buy versus what we can buy. It's nothing personal.
Best wishes.
Jony Ive's design is NOT for the benefit of the machine and far less the user. He has an obsession with certain things, thinness being one of them. His designs are for him. iOS and Mac OSX have awful interfaces and experts in the field rightly point the finger at Apple for not implementing their own guidelines. We are not asking for everyone to be able to fix their own machines. We are asking for easy access to battery, RAM and SSD and for those elements to be user upgradable.
Apple 13.3" MacBook Pro (Silver, Late 2016) - $1,499.00
2.0 GHz Intel Core I5-6360U Dual-Core
8GB of 1866 MHz RAM | 256GB PCIe SSD
13.3" 2560 x 1600 Retina Display
Integrated Intel Iris Graphics 540
802.11AC, Bluetooth
vs
HP ENVY x360 2-in-1 Touch screen Laptop(sliver, late 2015) - $799.99 - rebate = less than $700
Product number: L8S90AV
• 15.6" IPS Full HD(1920x1080) Touchscreen
• 2.50GHz Intel Core i7-6500U
• 8GB DDR3L
• 1TB 5400 rpm Hard Drive
• NVIDIA GeForce 930M 2GB Discrete Graphics
• Intel 802.11ac WLAN and Bluetooth(R) [2x2]
Right now all we have is an echo chamber of a vocal minority that haven't used these machines for 5 seconds (also we have no reviews have come out) yet already threw them in the trash. Like I said, the Marco Arments and Alex Lindseys of the world need to put their money where their mouth is. Rather than constantly bitching do something that Apple will really feel. Go hackintosh, go Windows or keep what you have and don't buy anything new. If Mac sales see a big drop Apple will get the message. But my guess is Apple is catering to the 80/90% with these machines and sales will be good. And early next year we'll see updates to the rest of the Mac line that will have hard core pro users in mind.
I think it would have been much better if Apple had announced these discounts when they introduced the machines. Tim Cook (or whoever) standing up and saying, "We recognize people still need to connect to non-USB-C devices, so we're making all Apple adapters 50% off and deeply discounting third-party USB-C devices that we sell," would have gone a long way to fostering some good will. Instead, this looks like a reactionary move to backlash. "Oh! You still need to connect to non-USB-C things? You won't buy our shiny new toy? Umm... How about a discount?"
The keyboard is great, in my opinion. The feedback is more distinct, so the sensation is one of precision. You can tell there's no sideways movement.
If it really is noisier, then I suspect that is deliberately there as a feedback enhancer.