Apple SVP Phil Schiller addresses Touch Bar, other MacBook Pro concerns

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  • Reply 21 of 92
    hevaKmaI said:
    "Can you imagine a 27-inch iMac where you have to reach over the air to try to touch and do things? That becomes absurd. You can't optimize for both."

    https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-studio/overview

    Seriously, go to a Microsoft store and try one. It's pretty damn awesome and works well as both a touch surface and iMac like computer. I have loved Apple products, but it seems they have just way too much hubris now. They think if they can't do it, it cannot be done.
    I'm sure if Apple wanted to add touch to macOS they could do it. But what's the point when they have iOS? Rather than adding touch to the Mac Apple should be focusing on the pain points iPad Pro users have and making that a machine that could be some professionals only machine.
  • Reply 22 of 92
    I understand Apple's push for the Type-C, besides they were the ones who made USB popular. But it would've not hurt to also include a standard USB. If standard USB is so obsolete then why did the iPhone 7 have it and not have a Type-C? Everyone is going to carry a USB C to A dongle.

    As for the Flash Card slot, every other professional I know has a 250GB or 500GB card in there and uses it to store photos, video, or code. The internal drive is used for apps and scratch disk, and the Flash as a library.

    It is very useful to have a computer without dongles and external drives hanging off of it. I am already placing an order for one, but I dreading carrying a HDMI, USB, and an external drive.

    As for the Microsoft Surface Studio. I spent a good hour one-on-one with a Microsoft Studio expert and was using it as a design tool, the "expert" was not a professional designer nor an artist, he couldn't answer basic design questions, he was just a Microsoft employee with a different color shirt. My overall impression is it's a gimmick. The screen can't be tilted, it adjusts position as you drag it up or down, the mechanism is great but the not thought out properly. The wheel, is confusing and counter productive, a time waster. And I hate the fact that Windows continuously displays the stylus's pointer on the screen, it doesn't happen in real life, why put it there?! The stylus has the most issues. For one it can't draw a straight line at low speed; the second, and this is a big one, there seems to be a switch in the tip that has to be pressed before it can start drawing, so you always have to press a little hard to get a faint line and it becomes hard to draw naturally. Also there seems to be very little light pressure range and more on the heavy side. Most my pen lines happen at low pressure because most natural media is used that way.

    The Apple Pencil is definitely better, I think the Surface Studio may appeal to some natural media artists, but then again why not just use natural media. I believe, had Apple attempted it, it would've been a hit.
    macxpressroundaboutnowmacplusplusanantksundaramwatto_cobra
  • Reply 23 of 92
    g-newsg-news Posts: 1,107member
    "I know our team made very smart choices and this is the best notebook that can be made with the greatest technology." -- Donald Trump

    fixed that for you
    dtb200
  • Reply 24 of 92

    I think the problems people have with the MB pro is also related to the keynote.

    Somehow this big company can only come up (after 2 to 3 years) with a new MB Pro model? What about the other Mac models which are in need of an update? Why can't they create a monitor themselves? They don't have to make a profit on everything. It is part of the Mac line. Always big words about design, and now you may place an ugly LG monitor in the middle of your desk.

    Maybe they need to rethink the whole Mac line. What about the TouchBar on other Mac models? If it will only be available on the MB Pro top models, it will be a gimmick. You might expect that if they think of new input methods for the Mac, they should think of how this works for all models.

    The problem is not not having a touchscreen. The problem is they don't come up with a better alternative.

    Why a Touch Bar? Why not add a screen to the trackpad? It already has force multitouch and haptic feedback and it's even bigger on the new MB's. It could do all the things the TouchBar does but it has much more space (screen) available. It can give all kinds of visible feedback while making gestures, etc. And why not add Apple Pencil support to it? Ultimately the trackpad is an iOS like device as a subsystem. They have the hardware, touch-id, etc. And such a visual trackpad can also be a separate device for the other Mac models.

    Such a thing would create a synergy between iOS and the Mac and can work for all Macs. And it's the synergy that people are now missing.

    And about the MB ports: My MB Pro has: Magsafe, 2x USB, 2x TB, 3.5 (analog + digital), HDMI and SD reader. The new MB Pro: 4x USB-C/TB and 3.5 analog. This step is to big for most people. Not only did they replace the 2 USB and 2 TB ports for 4 USB-C/TB, which is fine, but also removed all the other ones. If they just kept the 3.5 (analog + digital), HDMI and SD reader this was less an issue.

    edited November 2016 anantksundaramdtb200entropys
  • Reply 25 of 92
    mac_128mac_128 Posts: 3,454member
    hevaKmaI said:
    "Can you imagine a 27-inch iMac where you have to reach over the air to try to touch and do things? That becomes absurd. You can't optimize for both."

    https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-studio/overview

    Seriously, go to a Microsoft store and try one. It's pretty damn awesome and works well as both a touch surface and iMac like computer. I have loved Apple products, but it seems they have just way too much hubris now. They think if they can't do it, it cannot be done.
    You don't even have to bring up the Surface. The iPad Pro is being sold with a keyboard and Pencil -- it may not be 27" but it's the exact same concept. Apple is being hypocritical and inconsistent here.
    anantksundaramperkedel
  • Reply 26 of 92
    mac_128mac_128 Posts: 3,454member

    I'd love to at least use the Apple Pencil with the Mac. It would be great to render without having to use Astropad, or buy an expensive Wacom tablet.
    I actually think that's one thing that's coming. The track pad on the MBP is so large, it could easily function as a tablet for use with the Pencil. The touch interface is coming to the Mac eventually, and I think the TouchBar and enlarged trackpad are two ways in which Apple may be preparing for that arrival.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 27 of 92
    hevaKmaI said:
    "Can you imagine a 27-inch iMac where you have to reach over the air to try to touch and do things? That becomes absurd. You can't optimize for both."

    https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-studio/overview

    Seriously, go to a Microsoft store and try one. It's pretty damn awesome and works well as both a touch surface and iMac like computer. I have loved Apple products, but it seems they have just way too much hubris now. They think if they can't do it, it cannot be done.

    I went to our local flagship Microsoft Store and there were none available yet to try out (they didn't know when to expect them). Their website states early 2017 for delivery. You have a single post.

    Sorry, but I'm calling BS on your claims to have tried one.
    nolamacguymacxpressroundaboutnowpscooter63ration alwatto_cobra
  • Reply 28 of 92

    I think the problems people have with the MB pro is also related to the keynote.

    Somehow this big company can only come up (after 2 to 3 years) with a new MB Pro model? What about the other Mac models which are in need of an update? Why can't they create a monitor themselves? They don't have to make a profit on everything. It is part of the Mac line. Always big words about design, and now you may place an ugly LG monitor in the middle of your desk.

    Maybe they need to rethink the whole Mac line. What about the TouchBar on other Mac models? If it will only be available on the MB Pro top models, it will be a gimmick. You might expect that if the think of new input methods for the Mac, they should think how this works for al models.

    The problem is not not having a touchscreen. The problem is they don't have a better alternative.

    Why a Touch Bar? Why not add a screen to the trackpad? It already has force multitouch and haptic feedback and it's even bigger on the new MB's. It could do all the things the TouchBar does but with much more available space. It can give all kinds of visible feedback while making gestures etc. And why not add Apple Pencil support to it? Ultimately the trackpad is an iOS like device as a subsystem. They have the hardware, touch-id, etc. And such a visual trackpad can also be a separate device for the other Mac models.

    Such a thing would create a synergy between iOS and the Mac and can work for all Macs. And it's the synergy that people are now missing.

    And about the MB ports: My MB Pro has: Magsafe, 2x USB, 2x TB, 3.5 (analog + digital), HDMI and SD reader. The new MB Pro: 4x USB-C/TB and 3.5 analog. This step is to big for most people. Not only did they replace the 2 USB and 2 TB ports for 4 USB-C/TB, which is fine, but also removed all the other ones. If they just kept the 3.5 (analog + digital), HDMI and SD reader this was less an issue.

    The Touch Bar took approximately 8 years from concept to production


  • Reply 29 of 92
    mac_128mac_128 Posts: 3,454member
    seankill said:
    hevaKmaI said:
    "Can you imagine a 27-inch iMac where you have to reach over the air to try to touch and do things? That becomes absurd. You can't optimize for both."

    https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-studio/overview

    Seriously, go to a Microsoft store and try one. It's pretty damn awesome and works well as both a touch surface and iMac like computer. I have loved Apple products, but it seems they have just way too much hubris now. They think if they can't do it, it cannot be done.
    sorry, but no. that thing sucks because even the raised position is so low to the table -- you have to look down at it, rather than forward. as a non-drawer that sucks for normal use. not ergonomic at all. and can you mount it on a VESA arm? (i use my iMacs arm-mounted).


    She is standing up. A chair would change things.

    I do think reaching out to touch a computer monitor would be hard on the back though.
    I seriously can't believe we're debating the height of the screen as a criticism against. My iMac is sitting on a lift as I work at a standing desk. 

    Moreover, if we were to start using hybrid touch panel PCs, we'd learn to work differently. Not everyone would need such a thing, and the rest of us would probably start working in more of a drafting table experience. Heck, I already use two monitors at my job, so one would be ideally placed at an angle in front of me, and the other directly above it for strictly referencing things. As far as hard on the back? I suppose it could be. But that all depends on how much interaction a person would have with it. 

    Apple doesn't like hybrids. They don't like giving people two ways to do things, and that goes all the way back to Steve Jobs and arrow keys. He wanted the customer to use the mouse to move the cursor, not arrow keys. But the reality is arrow keys are often much more efficient than having to select the cursor -- this is true for iOS as well. Sometimes I'd much prefer to hit the back arrow key rather than awkwardly try to insert the cursor with my pudgy finger tip to change a few letters. Hopefully this attitude is starting to change as the Pencil is as hybrid as one can get. 
    LeBart1968
  • Reply 30 of 92
    blastdoor said:
    I totally agree with Schiller that a touch screen Mac is not the way to go.

    Yeah, because Wacom has never sold a single drawing tablet. Right?
  • Reply 31 of 92
    hevaKmaI said:
    "Can you imagine a 27-inch iMac where you have to reach over the air to try to touch and do things? That becomes absurd. You can't optimize for both."

    https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-studio/overview

    Seriously, go to a Microsoft store and try one. It's pretty damn awesome and works well as both a touch surface and iMac like computer. I have loved Apple products, but it seems they have just way too much hubris now. They think if they can't do it, it cannot be done.
    sorry, but no. that thing sucks because even the raised position is so low to the table -- you have to look down at it, rather than forward. as a non-drawer that sucks for normal use. not ergonomic at all. and can you mount it on a VESA arm? (i use my iMacs arm-mounted).


    It seems to me it's as high as an iMac screen. And it can be raised more. But more importantly, it can be lowered too. Perfect for drawing, no over the air reaching ... We have to wait another few years before Apple comes to his senses (like they eventually made bigger iPhone screens) Such a pity that Apple didn't design this. I'm not ready yet to switch over to Microsoft.
    again, while its tailor fit for drawing, it looks very low to me for say, coding. theres no way i would be staring downward like that all day, and pushing it back a couple more inches wouldn't get it to where it needs to be (the horizontal red line). and can you mount it to an arm?
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 32 of 92

    Why can't they create a monitor themselves? They don't have to make a profit on everything. [...]

    Why a Touch Bar? Why not add a screen to the trackpad? 

    do it for no profit? laugh....dont quit your day job, man. profit is the air corporations breath.

    as for your armchair designer ideas -- trust me, anything you can think of, they thought of too and tried. theyre not just tossing this stuff out willy nilly.
    macxpressration alwatto_cobra
  • Reply 33 of 92
    stevehsteveh Posts: 480member
    bdkennedy said:

    Yeah, because Wacom has never sold a single drawing tablet. Right?
    Right. Everyone uses their Wacom tablet placed vertically past and above the keyboard.

    Seriously?
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 34 of 92
    seankill said:
    hevaKmaI said:
    "Can you imagine a 27-inch iMac where you have to reach over the air to try to touch and do things? That becomes absurd. You can't optimize for both."

    https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-studio/overview

    Seriously, go to a Microsoft store and try one. It's pretty damn awesome and works well as both a touch surface and iMac like computer. I have loved Apple products, but it seems they have just way too much hubris now. They think if they can't do it, it cannot be done.
    sorry, but no. that thing sucks because even the raised position is so low to the table -- you have to look down at it, rather than forward. as a non-drawer that sucks for normal use. not ergonomic at all. and can you mount it on a VESA arm? (i use my iMacs arm-mounted).


    She is standing up. A chair would change things.

    I do think reaching out to touch a computer monitor would be hard on the back though.
    and I'm standing right now at my desk, with my iMac at proper height such that i look straight ahead at it, not down.

    further, if she were sitting then her arms would not form 90-degree L's on the table where they should be. she'd need an under-table keyboard/mouse shelf.


    roundaboutnowpscooter63chiaration alwatto_cobra
  • Reply 35 of 92
    mac_128 said:
    seankill said:
    hevaKmaI said:
    "Can you imagine a 27-inch iMac where you have to reach over the air to try to touch and do things? That becomes absurd. You can't optimize for both."

    https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-studio/overview

    Seriously, go to a Microsoft store and try one. It's pretty damn awesome and works well as both a touch surface and iMac like computer. I have loved Apple products, but it seems they have just way too much hubris now. They think if they can't do it, it cannot be done.
    sorry, but no. that thing sucks because even the raised position is so low to the table -- you have to look down at it, rather than forward. as a non-drawer that sucks for normal use. not ergonomic at all. and can you mount it on a VESA arm? (i use my iMacs arm-mounted).


    She is standing up. A chair would change things.

    I do think reaching out to touch a computer monitor would be hard on the back though.
    I seriously can't believe we're debating the height of the screen as a criticism against. My iMac is sitting on a lift as I work at a standing desk. 

    Moreover, if we were to start using hybrid touch panel PCs, we'd learn to work differently. Not everyone would need such a thing, and the rest of us would probably start working in more of a drafting table experience. Heck, I already use two monitors at my job, so one would be ideally placed at an angle in front of me, and the other directly above it for strictly referencing things. As far as hard on the back? I suppose it could be. But that all depends on how much interaction a person would have with it. 
    why on earth wouldnt be debate it? if the Surface is meant to be used as in their own photo above, then its a fail when it comes to daily computing. you should not be staring down at your display, you should be staring forward at it.
    chiaration alwatto_cobra
  • Reply 36 of 92
    nhtnht Posts: 4,522member
    hevaKmaI said:
    "Can you imagine a 27-inch iMac where you have to reach over the air to try to touch and do things? That becomes absurd. You can't optimize for both."

    https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-studio/overview

    Seriously, go to a Microsoft store and try one. It's pretty damn awesome and works well as both a touch surface and iMac like computer. I have loved Apple products, but it seems they have just way too much hubris now. They think if they can't do it, it cannot be done.
    I was a multi-touch researcher for a short while (couple years) and we a lot of stuff with the Cintiq, FTIR based touch screens (hand built), the mitsubishi touch, the early Surface (the coffee table), etc. 

    In the end the results were mixed.  Great for UI paradigms that worked well for direct manipulation (drawing, zooming, certain kinds of data navigation, etc) but not so great for other types of content creation (i.e. text, presentations), mission planning (which we expected better outcomes), etc, workflows, etc.   We did some work with a ZUI (zoomable user interface) that didn't really pan out.

    If you are an artist, photoshop pro, etc then the new Surface is awesome (with a pen).  For video editing, probably not so much.  Software developer, nope.  
    ration alwatto_cobra
  • Reply 37 of 92
    blastdoorblastdoor Posts: 2,488member
    bdkennedy said:
    blastdoor said:
    I totally agree with Schiller that a touch screen Mac is not the way to go.

    Yeah, because Wacom has never sold a single drawing tablet. Right?
    Could you remind me again -- when did you stop beating your wife? 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 38 of 92
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 6,957member
    I wonder if these interviews were planned or are due to the reaction these machines have received?
    Two interviews in such quick succession? I'd say this is a reaction. 
    dtb200
  • Reply 39 of 92
    avon b7 said:
    'Can you imagine reaching over? Well, a little, yes. How about if you remove the need to reach over?' That's what MS has done.
    Explain please. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 40 of 92
    hevaKmaI said:
    "Can you imagine a 27-inch iMac where you have to reach over the air to try to touch and do things? That becomes absurd. You can't optimize for both."

    https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/surface/devices/surface-studio/overview

    Seriously, go to a Microsoft store and try one. It's pretty damn awesome and works well as both a touch surface and iMac like computer. I have loved Apple products, but it seems they have just way too much hubris now. They think if they can't do it, it cannot be done.
    sorry, but no. that thing sucks because even the raised position is so low to the table -- you have to look down at it, rather than forward. as a non-drawer that sucks for normal use. not ergonomic at all. and can you mount it on a VESA arm? (i use my iMacs arm-mounted).


    It seems to me it's as high as an iMac screen. And it can be raised more. But more importantly, it can be lowered too. Perfect for drawing, no over the air reaching ... We have to wait another few years before Apple comes to his senses (like they eventually made bigger iPhone screens) Such a pity that Apple didn't design this. I'm not ready yet to switch over to Microsoft.
    Don't switch indeed. Not perfect for drawing because of the brush latency. Apple has perfectly resolved the latency problem with the iPad Pro. Apple Pencil draws so naturally that you don't even notice an eye-blink of latency. On that foldable-desktop-computer the brush latency is apparent. A mere touch screen is not enough for drawing. That touch screen must also support high resolution tracking of the drawing tool. Apple has achieved that breakthrough with the iPad Pro, it requires a special drawing tool for seamless drawing experience, which is the Apple Pencil, not a mere mortal finger or a mere stylus.
    edited November 2016 ration alLeBart1968watto_cobra
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