Stop doing this shit. No one likes it. It's of zero benefit to your customers. We don't care if it allows the laptop to be two microns thinner or a tenth of a gram lighter. Two things should always be user upgradeable: RAM and a hard drive. If the motherboard or some power port is hard to access and replace, so be it. Most people will never touch those things. But if my hard drive craps out or the RAM goes blinky, I should be able to pop open a case, pull the bad part out and snap the good one in.
I love Apple products, but this shit is getting old.
Do you feel the same way for iPhones?
Do you expect iPhones to be self serviced also?
of course not. Apple is looking forward, you are looking back.
Its the same reason why iPhones don't have removable storage or hardrive upgrades.
Tiny handheld electronics, no. They are much harder to work on by their very nature because of the extremely tight fit and tiny parts. But a desktop or laptop? Yes, I do. Like I say, I'm not asking for the entire inside to be user serviceable. But hard drive and RAM upgrades are basic no-brainer stuff. My 66 year-old mother could follow the instructions on a hard drive upgrade and pull it off. It might be a little less annoying if the upgrades to RAM and hard drive capacity weren't so bloody expensive when you do those upgrades on the front end from Apple, though I'd still want to choke someone when the hard drive in my laptop crapped out and I couldn't have it replaced in 20 minutes of my time.
Perhaps you can explain to me what tangible benefit you gain from Apple soldering a hard drive to a motherboard or soldering RAM to the motherboard. Maybe I'm missing something.
But the thing is...how many people actually do this on average? 1%? 5%? Apple isn't going to engineer a MacBook Pro for the 1-5% that "may" end up replacing/upgrading their own flash storage. If you didn't notice, this has been coming for quite some time. With nearly every new major Mac release you're seeing this. Yet, people still buy these. So its quite obvious the majority don't care whether or not they can pop the bottom panel off and replace RAM, storage, etc. As I've said, this is old school thinking and its simply isn't necessary in today's world. There are other ways and other places to store your things should you need more space.
Well they buy them because they like the Mac and don't have another option. And Apple still makes great looking stuff. I'm not saying the MBP is a piece of crap no one in their right mind should want. I'm just saying they made an unnecessary change that doesn't really deliver any significant benefit to people, but did take a pretty significant one away. Maybe I'd feel different if the failure rate of the normal connectors was high, or if they dropped the prices of the upgrades to something reasonable. It just seems more like a thumbing their nose at people than really trying to deliver a superior experience on this particular aspect.
I don't understand the whining behind this. If you can spend $1800+ for a laptop, why skim $200 for the storage? Really don't get it!
Because some people can't spend $1800 for a laptop. It might be a stretch for them to spend $1499 for one and they can't afford pricey upgrades from Apple. But they want to remain Apple customers and they buy the best one they can afford. And if they need more storage later, they used to be able to know they could easily snag a larger drive off Amazon or from OWC for a good price and pop it in themselves in minutes.
Then go buy something else. Nobody is forcing you to buy a new Mac. Its only a matter of time until other manufacturers follow suit with the rare exceptions.
Why is this always the response from a certain segment of the Mac user base? I like Macs. But when Apple does something like this, I prefer that it be something of genuine benefit if they are going to take capabilities away from me. How is that some radical opinion to hold that warrants a "go buy something else", "take it or leave it" kind of response?
Again people vote with your wallets. Bitching on an internet message board does no good.
Oh but it does! Do you think Phil Schiller came out twice in quick succession to 'defend' these machines on a whim?
Nope. It is a direct result of the very vocal backlash these machines have provoked.
If people vote with their wallets too, Apple might even eat some humble pie and react to ease some of the unnecessary issues it has brought on itself and many of its users.
The people have spoken and voted with their wallets...There is no eating on Apple's end!
Ah yes, Schiller wasted no time (less than a week!) to put that into the public domain. But look closely at what he said. He chose his words very carefully. Two days ago he came out again to defend these machines but didn't mention sales at all! Not even to reiterate his previous comments.
I have said from day one that these machines are very expensive. Too much for me. Let's wait till the next earnings call and see how they have sold.
I tend to use my laptops for six years before replacing them. My first-gen MBP is being used by my twelve-year-old for homework. A SSD has a limited lifespan. This is (sort-of) okay with a tablet or a phone, but I'm looking at spending over $3,000 on the new MacBook Pro early next year (to replace my early-2011). I'm highly unlikely to do spend that kind of cash on a machine that Apple is now considering disposable when a part wears out.
Even if it was removable, you wouldn't want to replace it because these SSDs have an Apple controller and they run on NVMExpress and not on SATA-3 like the rest of the industry. Apple is the first to implement NVMExpress SSDs. SATA-3 SSDs are limited to 300-400 MB/s. NVMExpress peaks at 2-3 GB/s. If any PC maker launches a laptop with NVMExpress next year, you can bet that it will cost you much more than that $3000 you're willing to spend.
FYI, there are currently lots of PC-based laptops that have NVMe drives in them.
You can search this page for "NVMe" to get a list:
Stop doing this shit. No one likes it. It's of zero benefit to your customers. We don't care if it allows the laptop to be two microns thinner or a tenth of a gram lighter. Two things should always be user upgradeable: RAM and a hard drive. If the motherboard or some power port is hard to access and replace, so be it. Most people will never touch those things. But if my hard drive craps out or the RAM goes blinky, I should be able to pop open a case, pull the bad part out and snap the good one in.
I love Apple products, but this shit is getting old.
Waahhh....
It's a non-issue for just about everyone. The fact that you feel progress means denying you a rarely-used ability is of zero consequence for just about everyone else.
Go cry elsewhere. This is a solid update, removes a known failure-point, and uses the fastest SSD drives around. Get lost.
Then you should be able to easily tell me not only how often these "failure points" actually fail and how much faster the drive is in this configuration over one that is removable.
the data is out there, go find it.
and tell me -- do you likewise moan about the inability to swap out HD or RAM in your ipad? iphone? ipod? nope, nope, and nope.
same thing. appliance computing is here to stay. it adds value for the vast majority of customers. DIY tinkering is a fringe case, and if you expect apple to halt progress for it then i really can't take you seriously.
I didn't know Pro meant removable storage? I wonder how many times someone has actually changed their storage later on?
pro enterprise software dev here, let me chime in. never -- never is the number of times I've later changed the storage on my MBPs. or any of my client-issued laptops, for that matter. they have a lifespan and once its expired i or they replace it. it's that simple.
Let me counter that with the fact that I have upgraded the internal storage on every MBP that my family has had. As for the lifespan, it is until they fail but some get requalified as secondary machines when we get a new one so a user could have two active machines at once.
There is a healthy aftermarket trade for upgrades to some machines.
Am I right in thinking that, should these soldered on drives suffer some kind of failure, the entire motherboard will need replacing?
you tinkering with your family computers has jack to do with pro users. we don't DIY tinker with our machines in enterprise, we get new machines when the lifespan has ended.
just admit it -- the DIY tinkerer is a fringe case. you don't represent any sort of notable demographic.
this is has been apple's direction since the original Mac. it ain't changing. only the bitching about it is constant.
I don't understand the whining behind this. If you can spend $1800+ for a laptop, why skim $200 for the storage? Really don't get it!
Because some people can't spend $1800 for a laptop. It might be a stretch for them to spend $1499 for one and they can't afford pricey upgrades from Apple. But they want to remain Apple customers and they buy the best one they can afford. And if they need more storage later, they used to be able to know they could easily snag a larger drive off Amazon or from OWC for a good price and pop it in themselves in minutes.
Then go buy something else. Nobody is forcing you to buy a new Mac. Its only a matter of time until other manufacturers follow suit with the rare exceptions.
Why is this always the response from a certain segment of the Mac user base? I like Macs. But when Apple does something like this, I prefer that it be something of genuine benefit if they are going to take capabilities away from me. How is that some radical opinion to hold that warrants a "go buy something else", "take it or leave it" kind of response?
because you're conveniently ignoring the advantages of these tightly integrated machines. speed is one. power efficiency another. mass is another -- thinner and lighter portables are awesome. it's less for me to carry and that has value. all completely ignored by you.
I don't understand the whining behind this. If you can spend $1800+ for a laptop, why skim $200 for the storage? Really don't get it!
Because some people can't spend $1800 for a laptop. It might be a stretch for them to spend $1499 for one and they can't afford pricey upgrades from Apple. But they want to remain Apple customers and they buy the best one they can afford. And if they need more storage later, they used to be able to know they could easily snag a larger drive off Amazon or from OWC for a good price and pop it in themselves in minutes.
Then go buy something else. Nobody is forcing you to buy a new Mac. Its only a matter of time until other manufacturers follow suit with the rare exceptions.
Why is this always the response from a certain segment of the Mac user base? I like Macs. But when Apple does something like this, I prefer that it be something of genuine benefit if they are going to take capabilities away from me. How is that some radical opinion to hold that warrants a "go buy something else", "take it or leave it" kind of response?
You dared question Apple's decisions. That basically is it.
You gave your opinion and your reasons but you are still questioning Apple so you will automatically be branded a whiner, griper, bitcher, idiot or something similar by some people.
That said, this forum is for everyone to express their opinion, whichever way it may go, so express it and ignore the stupid comments.
And contrary to what some people might have you believe, Apple does keep its ear close to what users are saying on different forums.
Apple seriously seems to have lost sight of the fact that the Professional Market is the Goose that Lays Golden Eggs. Consumers follow what the Pros do, Pros don't follow what consumers do.
I didn't know Pro meant removable storage? I wonder how many times someone has actually changed their storage later on?
For me personally, every Mac I've owned except a Mac Classic and a PowerBook 190cs. Oh, and except my just purchased 2015 MacBook Pro. The other 9 all received upgrades, some multiple. I do realize this is not typical of most users, and it's "bad" for Apple's business model because it means I get 1-3 years more usage before needing to buy a new Mac.
I tend to use my laptops for six years before replacing them. My first-gen MBP is being used by my twelve-year-old for homework. A SSD has a limited lifespan. This is (sort-of) okay with a tablet or a phone, but I'm looking at spending over $3,000 on the new MacBook Pro early next year (to replace my early-2011). I'm highly unlikely to do spend that kind of cash on a machine that Apple is now considering disposable when a part wears out.
Even if it was removable, you wouldn't want to replace it because these SSDs have an Apple controller and they run on NVMExpress and not on SATA-3 like the rest of the industry. Apple is the first to implement NVMExpress SSDs. SATA-3 SSDs are limited to 300-400 MB/s. NVMExpress peaks at 2-3 GB/s. If any PC maker launches a laptop with NVMExpress next year, you can bet that it will cost you much more than that $3000 you're willing to spend.
FYI, there are currently lots of PC-based laptops that have NVMe drives in them.
You can search this page for "NVMe" to get a list:
Apple is the first in NVMExpress with the Retina Macbook.
You said, "If any PC maker launches a laptop with NVMExpress next year."
I corrected you. There have already been PC laptops with NVMe out for at least the past several months, if not longer, not "next year".
It's not an "Apple vs PC" statement I'm making here like you seem to be implying. It's simply correcting a fallacy that you're apparently trying to propagate for some weird reason.
At least the SSD in my 2012 Retina can be replaced. Will be nice when the laptop gets to be some 6-9 years old knowing that I can replace it when it fails. Not sure I will be purchasing another Mac based on the current direction. Before noting that 6-9 is only relevant because a Mac lasts that long; my wifes $500 Dell from 2009 will be 8 years old in 4 months; original everything. It is still kicking, an SSD would make it last 4 more years. That is after I repaired the power supply board because it fell while plugged in. I said, "should have had mag-safe." Which I am glad Apple still uses.......Oh wait....... Idiots dropped that feature too. Saved my laptop some dozen times in college. Lord knows this laptop falling with it plugged in is likely to end that motherboard. At least you can just switch the SSD out....Oh wait.....
I think the 2012-2015 Macbook Retinas are the only prefect laptops Apple ever made. Hopefully they are listening and working on at least adding magsafe back. The transition to USB-C is one I am going to let everyone else handle for 2-3 more years. Apple needs to fix their port situation on their devices, it is a total mess right now. They better push USB-C on everything in 2017.
I think the 2012-2015 Macbook Retinas are the only prefect laptops Apple ever made.
And yet those perfect laptops are slower, less versatile, and have lesser construction, fewer future-forward features, and a worse display than the better laptops they just released.
I didn't know Pro meant removable storage? I wonder how many times someone has actually changed their storage later on?
I have a G4 powerbook for legacy file access & a 2010 mbp 17" both upgraded to SSD & maxed RAM - that has been very helpful (at least to me) especially as the costs of faster components drop, and in the interests of sustainability and extending the use of the embodied energy of such electronics, to assist minimizing the associated mining & environmental footprint...
I have been using Macs professionally for twenty years—and like many, feel the divide between Apple and its professional users has become intolerable. Specially given the price point Apple is asking for these new models.
I have been embarrassingly close to being a "fan boy" for Apple... and I want nothing more than continue what has been a great relationship. But, for me personally, I just don't know if that is possible any more. That really upsets me to even say, but that goes to show the connection people have had with Apple. It has been/is, a relationship, unlike the Win-box ilk.
People end marriages for a lot less! Watch out, Apple (tongue in cheek).
I need another coffee...
So go buy something else thats as good or better as what Apple is offering.
Oh wait...
What you fail to realize is that it's not about wanting something that's better than what Apple is offering. It's about wanting Apple to offer something "better" (in quotes because "better" is entirely dependent on what your individual criteria are). Either way, it's still about wanting something Apple. Sog just posted above yours about Apple no longer being a niche company and no addressing a "massive market." If that is true, why do they still maintain such a limited product lineup? Yes, we know, we know...efficiency of scale (hyper-efficiency can hit a point of diminishing returns), inventory simplification (because their inventory app will crash if they add another SKU), and limited resources (how much money do they have in the bank?).
I know Apple can do no wrong and should never be questioned, but isn't wanting something better what drives innovation and progress? Or at the very least gets you a discount on your USB-C and TB 3 accessories through the end of the year.
I tend to use my laptops for six years before replacing them. My first-gen MBP is being used by my twelve-year-old for homework. A SSD has a limited lifespan. This is (sort-of) okay with a tablet or a phone, but I'm looking at spending over $3,000 on the new MacBook Pro early next year (to replace my early-2011). I'm highly unlikely to do spend that kind of cash on a machine that Apple is now considering disposable when a part wears out.
Even if it was removable, you wouldn't want to replace it because these SSDs have an Apple controller and they run on NVMExpress and not on SATA-3 like the rest of the industry. Apple is the first to implement NVMExpress SSDs. SATA-3 SSDs are limited to 300-400 MB/s. NVMExpress peaks at 2-3 GB/s. If any PC maker launches a laptop with NVMExpress next year, you can bet that it will cost you much more than that $3000 you're willing to spend.
FYI, there are currently lots of PC-based laptops that have NVMe drives in them.
You can search this page for "NVMe" to get a list:
Apple is the first in NVMExpress with the Retina Macbook.
You said, "If any PC maker launches a laptop with NVMExpress next year."
I corrected you. There have already been PC laptops with NVMe out for at least the past several months, if not longer, not "next year".
It's not an "Apple vs PC" statement I'm making here like you seem to be implying. It's simply correcting a fallacy that you're apparently trying to propagate for some weird reason.
Yes I repeat If any PC maker launches a laptop with NVMExpress next year I expect it will cost more than $3000. This is my personal opinion. Why that would be propagating a fallacy for some weird reason? Why If? If, because SATA is the mainstream and a new interconnect standard takes always more time to become mainstream than the attached media. I believe any new PC laptop released next year will still have primarily SATA SSD. The list of NVMe laptops you pointed to doesn't mean that all the industry shifted to NVMe and all next year's PC laptops will include NVMe as standard.
At least the SSD in my 2012 Retina can be replaced. Will be nice when the laptop gets to be some 6-9 years old knowing that I can replace it when it fails. Not sure I will be purchasing another Mac based on the current direction. Before noting that 6-9 is only relevant because a Mac lasts that long; my wifes $500 Dell from 2009 will be 8 years old in 4 months; original everything. It is still kicking, an SSD would make it last 4 more years. That is after I repaired the power supply board because it fell while plugged in. I said, "should have had mag-safe." Which I am glad Apple still uses.......Oh wait....... Idiots dropped that feature too. Saved my laptop some dozen times in college. Lord knows this laptop falling with it plugged in is likely to end that motherboard. At least you can just switch the SSD out....Oh wait.....
I think the 2012-2015 Macbook Retinas are the only prefect laptops Apple ever made. Hopefully they are listening and working on at least adding magsafe back. The transition to USB-C is one I am going to let everyone else handle for 2-3 more years. Apple needs to fix their port situation on their devices, it is a total mess right now. They better push USB-C on everything in 2017.
MagSafe had shortcomings. Apple's backyard is full of MagSafe adapters with broken cables. Since it happens to use Macbooks in very unusual placements, the MagSafe end eventually breaks under continuous stress. Apple has changed the orientation of the plug in recent models but as we know from first Lightning cables, the straight-plug cables break too. And if it breaks, you have to replace the whole adapter, $79. With the new 2/4-port-charging, this unforeseen and annoying issue has been definitively resolved.
I have been using Macs professionally for twenty years—and like many, feel the divide between Apple and its professional users has become intolerable. Specially given the price point Apple is asking for these new models.
I have been embarrassingly close to being a "fan boy" for Apple... and I want nothing more than continue what has been a great relationship. But, for me personally, I just don't know if that is possible any more. That really upsets me to even say, but that goes to show the connection people have had with Apple. It has been/is, a relationship, unlike the Win-box ilk.
People end marriages for a lot less! Watch out, Apple (tongue in cheek).
I need another coffee...
you need to realize Apple is a mass market company.
They sell to MASSIVE MARKETS not niche markets like in the past.
The Macbook Pro is designed for a large chunk of the laptop population. You probably are not part of this segment. Seems like you are in the small niche power user segment. sorry.
There are a lot of companies making high performance laptops for Windows. I can't imagine they would be doing that if they thought their products only had niche appeal.
I don't understand the whining behind this. If you can spend $1800+ for a laptop, why skim $200 for the storage? Really don't get it!
Because some people can't spend $1800 for a laptop. It might be a stretch for them to spend $1499 for one and they can't afford pricey upgrades from Apple. But they want to remain Apple customers and they buy the best one they can afford. And if they need more storage later, they used to be able to know they could easily snag a larger drive off Amazon or from OWC for a good price and pop it in themselves in minutes.
Then go buy something else. Nobody is forcing you to buy a new Mac. Its only a matter of time until other manufacturers follow suit with the rare exceptions.
Why is this always the response from a certain segment of the Mac user base? I like Macs. But when Apple does something like this, I prefer that it be something of genuine benefit if they are going to take capabilities away from me. How is that some radical opinion to hold that warrants a "go buy something else", "take it or leave it" kind of response?
Perhaps if he doesn't like all of the posts here that he disagrees with then he should simply go post somewhere else. Clearly that is his recommended strategy...if you don't like something don't criticize it. Just give up on it and leave.
I have been using Macs professionally for twenty years—and like many, feel the divide between Apple and its professional users has become intolerable. Specially given the price point Apple is asking for these new models.
I have been embarrassingly close to being a "fan boy" for Apple... and I want nothing more than continue what has been a great relationship. But, for me personally, I just don't know if that is possible any more. That really upsets me to even say, but that goes to show the connection people have had with Apple. It has been/is, a relationship, unlike the Win-box ilk.
People end marriages for a lot less! Watch out, Apple (tongue in cheek).
I need another coffee...
Well spoken. And you're not alone. There are hundreds of thousands with the exact same sentiment.
Comments
I have said from day one that these machines are very expensive. Too much for me. Let's wait till the next earnings call and see how they have sold.
Apple is the first in NVMExpress with the Retina Macbook.
and tell me -- do you likewise moan about the inability to swap out HD or RAM in your ipad? iphone? ipod? nope, nope, and nope.
same thing. appliance computing is here to stay. it adds value for the vast majority of customers. DIY tinkering is a fringe case, and if you expect apple to halt progress for it then i really can't take you seriously.
you tinkering with your family computers has jack to do with pro users. we don't DIY tinker with our machines in enterprise, we get new machines when the lifespan has ended.
just admit it -- the DIY tinkerer is a fringe case. you don't represent any sort of notable demographic.
this is has been apple's direction since the original Mac. it ain't changing. only the bitching about it is constant.
You gave your opinion and your reasons but you are still questioning Apple so you will automatically be branded a whiner, griper, bitcher, idiot or something similar by some people.
That said, this forum is for everyone to express their opinion, whichever way it may go, so express it and ignore the stupid comments.
And contrary to what some people might have you believe, Apple does keep its ear close to what users are saying on different forums.
I corrected you. There have already been PC laptops with NVMe out for at least the past several months, if not longer, not "next year".
It's not an "Apple vs PC" statement I'm making here like you seem to be implying. It's simply correcting a fallacy that you're apparently trying to propagate for some weird reason.
Lord knows this laptop falling with it plugged in is likely to end that motherboard. At least you can just switch the SSD out....Oh wait.....
I think the 2012-2015 Macbook Retinas are the only prefect laptops Apple ever made. Hopefully they are listening and working on at least adding magsafe back. The transition to USB-C is one I am going to let everyone else handle for 2-3 more years. Apple needs to fix their port situation on their devices, it is a total mess right now. They better push USB-C on everything in 2017.
I know Apple can do no wrong and should never be questioned, but isn't wanting something better what drives innovation and progress? Or at the very least gets you a discount on your USB-C and TB 3 accessories through the end of the year.