Thank you for explaining. I think we are talking about different subjects. I am not referring to the life of the machine but some of its components. In that respect it doesn't matter if the machine is an electrical kitchen appliance or a computer.
If the manufacturer is so confident with the longevity of a particular component so as to offer a specific warranty for that component, it clearly believes that the marketing weight of that warranty will be relevant. For the user it means peace of mind. A win, win situation for all involved.
If these latest generation SSDs are designed to far outlive the expected lifespan of the computer, Apple could offer SSD specific warranties and Gove users peace of mind. Of course it won't, but that isn't the point really.
The whole line of argument is stupid and has nothing to do with whether or not a product is designed for pros. The OP refuted the assertion that SSDs fail after only 3 years. They don't. SSD manufactures do warranty them for up to 10 years and 400 terabytes written (TBW). That apple does not warranty an internal part is immaterial in refuting that SSDs have a short life expectancy.
'High computation, modest input values'? I can think of a few fields where that may be necessary but mostly in science, education, engineering etc, but in those cases the machine you have locally acts merely as a console. As such, most modern PCs would do just fine. Even some older ones if institutions allowed them. More often than not though, older systems are forcibly removed from the pool on security grounds. Either way you certainly wouldn't need a MBP for those tasks.
For what you are suggesting, I'll stick with my estimate of less than 1%.
Well, if you want to claim that only 1% of pro users need the stuff you claim is required I guess that's fine. Especially since you have been unwilling or unable to provide any use cases where the 2016 MBP falls short and the cloud isn't a viable alternative that isn't 4K+ video related.
It's not 1% of the stuff that I claim pro users need. You brought a specific cloud use to the table, which is fine. The question is that I can't see that kind of use being relevant to 99% of MBP users for varying reasons, some of which I have given.
'High computation, modest input values'? I can think of a few fields where that may be necessary but mostly in science, education, engineering etc, but in those cases the machine you have locally acts merely as a console. As such, most modern PCs would do just fine. Even some older ones if institutions allowed them. More often than not though, older systems are forcibly removed from the pool on security grounds. Either way you certainly wouldn't need a MBP for those tasks.
For what you are suggesting, I'll stick with my estimate of less than 1%.
Well, if you want to claim that only 1% of pro users need the stuff you claim is required I guess that's fine. Especially since you have been unwilling or unable to provide any use cases where the 2016 MBP falls short and the cloud isn't a viable alternative that isn't 4K+ video related.
It's not 1% of the stuff that I claim pro users need. You brought a specific cloud use to the table, which is fine. The question is that I can't see that kind of use being relevant to 99% of MBP users for varying reasons, some of which I have given.
So your assertion that developers represent only 1% of MBP users? That's fine but it also means that the limitations of the MBP only impact a very tiny segment of MBP users.
You haven't identified any use cases outside that 1% so it's a non-issue for everyone outside 4K videographers.
Thank you for explaining. I think we are talking about different subjects. I am not referring to the life of the machine but some of its components. In that respect it doesn't matter if the machine is an electrical kitchen appliance or a computer.
If the manufacturer is so confident with the longevity of a particular component so as to offer a specific warranty for that component, it clearly believes that the marketing weight of that warranty will be relevant. For the user it means peace of mind. A win, win situation for all involved.
If these latest generation SSDs are designed to far outlive the expected lifespan of the computer, Apple could offer SSD specific warranties and Gove users peace of mind. Of course it won't, but that isn't the point really.
The whole line of argument is stupid and has nothing to do with whether or not a product is designed for pros. The OP refuted the assertion that SSDs fail after only 3 years. They don't. SSD manufactures do warranty them for up to 10 years and 400 terabytes written (TBW). That apple does not warranty an internal part is immaterial in refuting that SSDs have a short life expectancy.
As you are reading here and probably elsewhere, people are voicing their concerns about soldered on RAM and SSD. They are valid concerns. Apple, if it wanted to, could eliminate those concerns by guaranteeing those components against failure (for example for 10 years). It's an option they have. That's it. I am not referring to the OP. I am giving my opinion on the soldered on SSD. They could even socket them.
You are right that this aspect has nothing to do with pros - it applies to the entire line, however you wish to define it (consumer, prosumer, pro, super pro, super mega extreme pro etc).
Thank you for explaining. I think we are talking about different subjects. I am not referring to the life of the machine but some of its components. In that respect it doesn't matter if the machine is an electrical kitchen appliance or a computer.
If the manufacturer is so confident with the longevity of a particular component so as to offer a specific warranty for that component, it clearly believes that the marketing weight of that warranty will be relevant. For the user it means peace of mind. A win, win situation for all involved.
If these latest generation SSDs are designed to far outlive the expected lifespan of the computer, Apple could offer SSD specific warranties and Gove users peace of mind. Of course it won't, but that isn't the point really.
I have to respectively disagree. the components designed use life got a lot to do with its application and selection (believe me, come from mainframe, aerospace, commercial and telecom and dipped a few month in medical... the components "grade" are very different for different application... you have to select it according to the design intended life span of the equipment you want it to control...even the way it build are different... see attached link for electronic assembly as example... they build differently and select components accordingly as class 1, 2,and 3...http://blog.jjsmanufacturing.com/ipc-standards-for-acceptability-and-why-they-matter-to-your-pcb-assembly... I really hope your washing machine is build at least class 2 with industry grade components - not commercial grade.. but if buy cheap, you might be surprise what is under the hood.. as for auto, definitely you want industry grade with extended temperature range of components, consider AZ and White Horse Canada are really different temp range...Tesla battery might have problem to cover the whole range... different story ).
Thank you for explaining. I think we are talking about different subjects. I am not referring to the life of the machine but some of its components. In that respect it doesn't matter if the machine is an electrical kitchen appliance or a computer.
If the manufacturer is so confident with the longevity of a particular component so as to offer a specific warranty for that component, it clearly believes that the marketing weight of that warranty will be relevant. For the user it means peace of mind. A win, win situation for all involved.
If these latest generation SSDs are designed to far outlive the expected lifespan of the computer, Apple could offer SSD specific warranties and Gove users peace of mind. Of course it won't, but that isn't the point really.
The whole line of argument is stupid and has nothing to do with whether or not a product is designed for pros. The OP refuted the assertion that SSDs fail after only 3 years. They don't. SSD manufactures do warranty them for up to 10 years and 400 terabytes written (TBW). That apple does not warranty an internal part is immaterial in refuting that SSDs have a short life expectancy.
As you are reading here and probably elsewhere, people are voicing their concerns about soldered on RAM and SSD. They are valid concerns. Apple, if it wanted to, could eliminate those concerns by guaranteeing those components against failure (for example for 10 years). It's an option they have. That's it. I am not referring to the OP. I am giving my opinion on the soldered on SSD. They could even socket them.
You are right that this aspect has nothing to do with pros - it applies to the entire line, however you wish to define it (consumer, prosumer, pro, super pro, super mega extreme pro etc).
They aren't valid concerns since RAM and SD's are no more likely to fail than the GPU or any other component on the MB. Therefore no warranty required. The assertion that they have a 3 year lifetime is false and a false fear you supported with your bogus concern trolling over an independent warranty for SSDs. You have not once admitted that SSDs do not have a 3 year expected life despite being shown tests and warranty data.
Again and again you bring up things that are not issues and when proven wrong you blithely ignore the proof that you are wrong (ex: battery replacement is not "nightmare") and simply move on to yet another made up problem like SSD longevity.
You are a concern troll pure and simple. Any normal user this annoyed with Apple would simply have moved on to something else rather than continuing to seek opportunities to be rabidly affronted by Apple's design decisions that have not changed one iota. From day 1 the mac has been a pain in the rear for normal users to open and update. I know this because in college we had a nice little side business upgrading 128K macs into 512k fat macs because we had the right screwdriver and could source the 512K parts required.
Thank you for explaining. I think we are talking about different subjects. I am not referring to the life of the machine but some of its components. In that respect it doesn't matter if the machine is an electrical kitchen appliance or a computer.
If the manufacturer is so confident with the longevity of a particular component so as to offer a specific warranty for that component, it clearly believes that the marketing weight of that warranty will be relevant. For the user it means peace of mind. A win, win situation for all involved.
If these latest generation SSDs are designed to far outlive the expected lifespan of the computer, Apple could offer SSD specific warranties and Gove users peace of mind. Of course it won't, but that isn't the point really.
I have to respectively disagree. the components designed use life got a lot to do with its application and selection (believe me, come from mainframe, aerospace, commercial and telecom and dipped a few month in medical... the components "grade" are very different for different application... you have to select it according to the design intended life span of the equipment you want it to control...even the way it build are different... see attached link for electronic assembly as example... they build differently and select components accordingly as class 1, 2,and 3...http://blog.jjsmanufacturing.com/ipc-standards-for-acceptability-and-why-they-matter-to-your-pcb-assembly... I really hope your washing machine is build at least class 2 with industry grade components - not commercial grade.. but if buy cheap, you might be surprise what is under the hood.. as for auto, definitely you want industry grade with extended temperature range of components, consider AZ and White Horse Canada are really different temp range...Tesla battery might have problem to cover the whole range... different story ).
It isn't a question of component grading as such. Apple will never release component level failure rates but it has all the information at its disposal to determine which components are likely to fail over time. In the case of SSD which is not user accessible and has no moving parts, they could easily eliminate any concerns over reliability by offering a 'lifetime' warranty.
In spite of the the premium price, Apple has a long history of shipping less than premium parts, components and designs. The Danish Consumer Council once famously called them out over what it considered a design flaw in an iBook. After several complaints from consumers, they looked at the motherboard design under a microscope and ruled that some solder joints were not good enough for the task at hand. Apple chose not to challenge the conclusions. Apple's stock optical drives were also of non-premium quality. It has had problems with capacitors, screen hinges, and the thermal design of iMacs is unnecessarily challenged in my opinion. Not just the slim iMacs either but the fat ones too. I will not include battery problems as they are completely outsourced and the notoriously faulty ones didn't meet the specifications.
The obsession with thinness and the compromises it leads to (laptop class graphics in desktop machines, soldered RAM, SSD, glue etc) is one of the biggest issues that we, as users, are currently facing.
Along with price, it's just two of the reasons I refuse to buy into this design.
We will see if they have sold well or not early next year. Either way I don't see TC or Jonny I've as long term employees of the company. There is always a possibility that new blood will change some of the practices that have crept into the company over the last few years.
avon - life time warranty? you got be kidding me... we diffidently live in different world... who is going to give you life time warranty knowing majority of the components are packaged in polymeric material... wow... i rest my case. bye.
Hard drive manufacturers have had longer warranties than OEMs for decades. Bought off the shelf, the hard drive in my old MacBook had a three-year warranty. The 'Book itself had one year (three years only with AppleCare).
The Seagate drives in my LaCie enclosures had longer warranties than the package LaCie sold.
The main thing is to come up with some imaginary criterion you can hold Apple to that they fail to meet — regardless of whether it has ever applied to anyone else, anywhere, in any context.
Hard drive manufacturers have had longer warranties than OEMs for decades. Bought off the shelf, the hard drive in my old MacBook had a three-year warranty. The 'Book itself had one year (three years only with AppleCare).
The Seagate drives in my LaCie enclosures had longer warranties than the package LaCie sold.
The main thing is to come up with some imaginary criterion you can hold Apple to that they fail to meet — regardless of whether it has ever applied to anyone else, anywhere, in any context.
Everyday Internetland.
Even a hard drive maker sells a hard drive in an enclosure. they typically use a one-year warranty as opposed to buying the drive separately. I'm not sure if the internal drive still maintains the longer warranty or not.
Hard drive manufacturers have had longer warranties than OEMs for decades. Bought off the shelf, the hard drive in my old MacBook had a three-year warranty. The 'Book itself had one year (three years only with AppleCare).
The Seagate drives in my LaCie enclosures had longer warranties than the package LaCie sold.
The main thing is to come up with some imaginary criterion you can hold Apple to that they fail to meet — regardless of whether it has ever applied to anyone else, anywhere, in any context.
Everyday Internetland.
Even a hard drive maker sells a hard drive in an enclosure. they typically use a one-year warranty as opposed to buying the drive separately. I'm not sure if the internal drive still maintains the longer warranty or not.
No, not to the end customer, generally.
I've had one case where Seagate honoured their warranty on a LaCie-enclosed hard drive (this was before they were the same company) after it had seized up in mid-production with a common error where the drives would lock up after a firmware-bug limited number of read/writes.
avon - life time warranty? you got be kidding me... we diffidently live in different world... who is going to give you life time warranty knowing majority of the components are packaged in polymeric material... wow... i rest my case. bye.
No. If you look at most 'lifetime' warranties you will find the magic word 'limited'. I hate it too but that's what manufacturers do and that's why I used it. I prefer the plain old xx warranty where you are given a number of years but just look around you and you will see lots of lifetime warranties. Most of them from US companies by the way.
Hard drive manufacturers have had longer warranties than OEMs for decades. Bought off the shelf, the hard drive in my old MacBook had a three-year warranty. The 'Book itself had one year (three years only with AppleCare).
The Seagate drives in my LaCie enclosures had longer warranties than the package LaCie sold.
The main thing is to come up with some imaginary criterion you can hold Apple to that they fail to meet — regardless of whether it has ever applied to anyone else, anywhere, in any context.
Everyday Internetland.
No. Apple could easily give a warranty for an SSD for any term it wants. The thing is they won't do it. It's their call. We have to accept that. If people buy into the deal they know under what terms they are doing it.
As for OEM drives you will be surprised, perhaps shocked, to know that the warranty pendulum has swung in both directions over time. Some OEMs gave longer warranties than the drive manufacturer selling the bare drive. Above all before the Hard Disk market went through its convergence period. In fact it was a result of competition that it happened. The OEM would negotiate a warranty directly with the manufacturer and then pass it on to its customers. I've had Iomega units with longer warranties on their internal drives than the drives used in them if bought directly from the manufacturer.
After convergence, prices dropped, along with quality and warranties, both on OEM drives and all but a few bare drives from the manufacturers. In fact, I was surprised to see Maxtor back in a local store giving a three year warranty on an external drive. I thought Maxtor had gone for good. Samsung also seems to be adding an extra year to some of its drives.
It's worth noting that even the manufacturers are playing with warranties too. You can generally pick up an external drive from a 'brand' manufacturer (one you historically identified as a drive manufacturer), flip it over and see the words 'drive made by xxx'. You may well find that the same physical drive is sold by the same manufacturer under its own brand or another within the group, with different warranties depending on the region and brand it is sold under.
Away from the drive market, if you move into refrigeration you will find that Miele doesn't make any of the refrigeration components. They are OEMed from Liebherr. Miele adds its own electronics, finishing etc, but you will often see Miele offering better warranties than the exact same compressor in a Branded Liebherr. Just one of many examples.
At the end of the day it depends on the deal you can get out of the manufacturer. That deal may be better than what the manufacturer offers its direct clients.
Over the last few years the tendency has been to lower warranties but I'm not sure if that us changing a little now, at least in the storage market.
Apart from its raw power this machine is non-professional from any every conceivable perspective. Apple still does not get it: Industrial design for pros is something that is very much different from industrial design for consumers.
As long as people are lining up to buy products from Apple that have less, this will continue to happen.
Don't buy it and Apple gets the message (and they either will revamp the product or discontinue it...haha).
Apart from its raw power this machine is non-professional from any every conceivable perspective. Apple still does not get it: Industrial design for pros is something that is very much different from industrial design for consumers.
As long as people are lining up to buy products from Apple that have less, this will continue to happen.
Don't buy it and Apple gets the message (and they either will revamp the product or discontinue it...haha).
From the beginning Apple has consolidated and shrank components to make the best AIOs in the businesss. It's because of these efforts that the PC industry took off when it did. They continued to consolidate their machines with great success… but you think they're going to discontinue their best selling products. Sure¡
Hard drive manufacturers have had longer warranties than OEMs for decades. Bought off the shelf, the hard drive in my old MacBook had a three-year warranty. The 'Book itself had one year (three years only with AppleCare).
The Seagate drives in my LaCie enclosures had longer warranties than the package LaCie sold.
The main thing is to come up with some imaginary criterion you can hold Apple to that they fail to meet — regardless of whether it has ever applied to anyone else, anywhere, in any context.
Everyday Internetland.
Even a hard drive maker sells a hard drive in an enclosure. they typically use a one-year warranty as opposed to buying the drive separately. I'm not sure if the internal drive still maintains the longer warranty or not.
No, not to the end customer, generally.
I've had one case where Seagate honoured their warranty on a LaCie-enclosed hard drive (this was before they were the same company) after it had seized up in mid-production with a common error where the drives would lock up after a firmware-bug limited number of read/writes.
I assume that's because of the potential for a class action, not unlike apple replacing swollen batteries three years after I bought the machine.
Comments
The whole line of argument is stupid and has nothing to do with whether or not a product is designed for pros. The OP refuted the assertion that SSDs fail after only 3 years. They don't. SSD manufactures do warranty them for up to 10 years and 400 terabytes written (TBW). That apple does not warranty an internal part is immaterial in refuting that SSDs have a short life expectancy.
You haven't identified any use cases outside that 1% so it's a non-issue for everyone outside 4K videographers.
You are right that this aspect has nothing to do with pros - it applies to the entire line, however you wish to define it (consumer, prosumer, pro, super pro, super mega extreme pro etc).
Again and again you bring up things that are not issues and when proven wrong you blithely ignore the proof that you are wrong (ex: battery replacement is not "nightmare") and simply move on to yet another made up problem like SSD longevity.
You are a concern troll pure and simple. Any normal user this annoyed with Apple would simply have moved on to something else rather than continuing to seek opportunities to be rabidly affronted by Apple's design decisions that have not changed one iota. From day 1 the mac has been a pain in the rear for normal users to open and update. I know this because in college we had a nice little side business upgrading 128K macs into 512k fat macs because we had the right screwdriver and could source the 512K parts required.
In spite of the the premium price, Apple has a long history of shipping less than premium parts, components and designs. The Danish Consumer Council once famously called them out over what it considered a design flaw in an iBook. After several complaints from consumers, they looked at the motherboard design under a microscope and ruled that some solder joints were not good enough for the task at hand. Apple chose not to challenge the conclusions. Apple's stock optical drives were also of non-premium quality. It has had problems with capacitors, screen hinges, and the thermal design of iMacs is unnecessarily challenged in my opinion. Not just the slim iMacs either but the fat ones too. I will not include battery problems as they are completely outsourced and the notoriously faulty ones didn't meet the specifications.
The obsession with thinness and the compromises it leads to (laptop class graphics in desktop machines, soldered RAM, SSD, glue etc) is one of the biggest issues that we, as users, are currently facing.
Along with price, it's just two of the reasons I refuse to buy into this design.
We will see if they have sold well or not early next year. Either way I don't see TC or Jonny I've as long term employees of the company. There is always a possibility that new blood will change some of the practices that have crept into the company over the last few years.
Hard drive manufacturers have had longer warranties than OEMs for decades. Bought off the shelf, the hard drive in my old MacBook had a three-year warranty. The 'Book itself had one year (three years only with AppleCare).
The Seagate drives in my LaCie enclosures had longer warranties than the package LaCie sold.
The main thing is to come up with some imaginary criterion you can hold Apple to that they fail to meet — regardless of whether it has ever applied to anyone else, anywhere, in any context.
Everyday Internetland.
As for OEM drives you will be surprised, perhaps shocked, to know that the warranty pendulum has swung in both directions over time. Some OEMs gave longer warranties than the drive manufacturer selling the bare drive. Above all before the Hard Disk market went through its convergence period. In fact it was a result of competition that it happened. The OEM would negotiate a warranty directly with the manufacturer and then pass it on to its customers. I've had Iomega units with longer warranties on their internal drives than the drives used in them if bought directly from the manufacturer.
After convergence, prices dropped, along with quality and warranties, both on OEM drives and all but a few bare drives from the manufacturers. In fact, I was surprised to see Maxtor back in a local store giving a three year warranty on an external drive. I thought Maxtor had gone for good. Samsung also seems to be adding an extra year to some of its drives.
It's worth noting that even the manufacturers are playing with warranties too. You can generally pick up an external drive from a 'brand' manufacturer (one you historically identified as a drive manufacturer), flip it over and see the words 'drive made by xxx'. You may well find that the same physical drive is sold by the same manufacturer under its own brand or another within the group, with different warranties depending on the region and brand it is sold under.
Away from the drive market, if you move into refrigeration you will find that Miele doesn't make any of the refrigeration components. They are OEMed from Liebherr. Miele adds its own electronics, finishing etc, but you will often see Miele offering better warranties than the exact same compressor in a Branded Liebherr. Just one of many examples.
At the end of the day it depends on the deal you can get out of the manufacturer. That deal may be better than what the manufacturer offers its direct clients.
Over the last few years the tendency has been to lower warranties but I'm not sure if that us changing a little now, at least in the storage market.
Don't buy it and Apple gets the message (and they either will revamp the product or discontinue it...haha).