But if he succeeds in brining manufacturing back but companies use mostly robots and automation to be competitive globally, what has Trump really achieved jobs wise?
It's a con job. There's no other way to describe it. Those jobs are gone; they are not coming back. And why would I pay you $12/hour when I can get automation to do it for $2? As others have surely pointed out, it's highly dubious anyone wants to pay several times more for a phone manufactured in the U.S.
Does no one watch "American Greed"? This is exactly how it always starts: X promises all these wonderful things, people line up, for 6 months they see dividends, then those stop and their phone calls are no longer taken.
Mr. Trump, how about pressuring Samsung, LG and most importantly Chinese phone companies like Huawei trying to enter North American market to manufacturer their phones or products here in USA ? If you can't do that than get off Apple's back.
If you missed it, he wants a tariff on all imports. Fuck anti-protectionism.
So how would abolishing or temporary waiver of the minimum wage play out economically? disregard the political effects for the time being
Literally take Econ 101.
Considering high tariffs would be the only real way of forcing Apple to do this and the incredible implications on the rest of the supply chain
Guess what he has said for literally THIRTY YEARS that he would do.
Trade wars worked so god damn well in the 1930s that all sort of trade treaties were signed post WWII
And shat up the world ever since. It’s time we return to sane trade policy. Sane monetary policy (we don’t have a monetary policy at all right now) is next.
The important thing is : would doing this actually be beneficial for the god damn US. The answer is almost certainly NO.
Citation needed.
Just reading his assertions a president cannot have a god damn conflict of interest (he can, its just the remedies are very very few).
Oh, so you instantly disprove your own claim. Got it.
He's going to fucking enrich himself and all his cronies directly from the US treasury, cut out the middleman entirely..
lol, he wants to return to the gold standard. That’s grounds for a bullet to the head from those who run the Treasury. Get a clue.
He's an amoral sociopath
Citation needed.
since this is the GOP mode of operation.
Thanks for repeating MSNBC’s latest talking point. Read a goddamn history book.
We'll never get anywhere with someone who makes things up and passes them off as fact. "Everyone is saying x" when actually no one is saying x. He keeps talking about "My plan" and "I want to" as if Apple and everyone else needs to finally get with the program he has been the champion of forever. He wasn't even swift enough to shift his tie manufacturing to one of the many in the US just for the campaign.
I disagree!
Consider (from the article):
"I think we'll create the incentives for you, and I think you're going to do it," added Trump. "We're going for a very large tax cut for corporations, which you'll be happy about."
In the portion of the conversation related to Cook and Apple, Trump also pointed to his view that a "choking" overly regulatory environment within the federal government is responsible for a poor start-up climate, and hampers expansion.
"I've met so many people. They are more excited about the regulation cut than about the tax cut," said Trump. "And I would've never said that's possible, because the tax cut's going to be substantial."
Trump added that the reaction to regulatory reduction was surprising to him, and "more enthusiastically supported" than large tax cuts.
IMO, many things are tied together: lower corporate taxes, repatriation of overseas cash holdings, lower individual taxes, fewer regulations, rebuilding the infrastructure == jobs and self worth.
Trump is certainly not the first choice for many of us...
But reflecting on the issues, Who is more likely to make the changes needed: An outsider who has succeeded (and failed) with no political debts -- or an insider who has obligations to the status quo?
Mr. Trump, how about pressuring Samsung, LG and most importantly Chinese phone companies like Huawei trying to enter North American market to manufacturer their phones or products here in USA ? If you can't do that than get off Apple's back.
If you missed it, he wants a tariff on all imports. Fuck anti-protectionism.
STFU asshole president, man I am already tired of his shit and he's not even in power.
Then deport yourself.
Considering high tariffs would be the only real way of forcing Apple to do this and the incredible implications on the rest of the supply chain
Guess what he has said for literally THIRTY YEARS that he would do.
Trade wars worked so god damn well in the 1930s that all sort of trade treaties were signed post WWII
And shat up the world ever since. It’s time we return to sane trade policy. Sane monetary policy (we don’t have a monetary policy at all right now) is next.
The important thing is : would doing this actually be beneficial for the god damn US. The answer is almost certainly NO.
Citation needed.
Just reading his assertions a president cannot have a god damn conflict of interest (he can, its just the remedies are very very few).
Oh, so you instantly disprove your own claim. Got it.
He's going to fucking enrich himself and all his cronies directly from the US treasury, cut out the middleman entirely..
lol, he wants to return to the gold standard. That’s grounds for a bullet to the head from those who run the Treasury. Get a clue.
He's an amoral sociopath
Citation needed.
since this is the GOP mode of operation.
Thanks for repeating MSNBC’s latest talking point. Read a goddamn history book.
It's a con job. There's no other way to describe it. Those jobs are gone; they are not coming back.
Thanks for the defeatism. It’s not viable, but thanks for it anyway.
Oh boy.... for someone to start off by saying "fuck anti-protectionism" and then give us a graph from "Econ 101" tells me that one part of the brain is not communicating with the other.
People talked about the "Obama Derangement Syndrome." I think it's time to replace it with "TDS."
I've been using Airport Extremes since they first came out, and won't switch until they melt into a white puddle of plastic on my floor! TP absolutely SUX! Everyone I've ever tried (as a WiFi extender) required a masters in router technology to set up, and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM DID NOT WORK - even after calling their tech support. The Airport Extreme (or Time Machine or Express) — totally plug and play! But Apple has been headed down the wrong paths for the last few years. I blame it on Mr. minimal, Jonny Ives, who doesn't understand the most basic precept of design: FORM FOLLOWS FUNCTION! Wake the fk up Sr. J. and Google R. Buckminster Fuller!
Oh boy.... for someone to start off by saying "fuck anti-protectionism" and then give us a graph from "Econ 101" tells me that one part of the brain is not communicating with the other.
Oh boy.... for someone to start off by saying "fuck anti-protectionism" and then give us a graph from "Econ 101" tells me that one part of the brain is not communicating with the other.
I don't like what Trump is doing, but in this case I must admit that its not an Apple thing. If he does a tax cut and increases customs duties it will be tougher for Korean and Chinese companies to sell something in the U.S. The problem is, this might have serious long term consequences.
The long term consequences just might be a better home economy. Who knows? As for the skills, i would find it hard to believe that there aren't a few people in the whole of the US who dont know this stuff. Many would probably work in Apple already and oversee things in Asian factories. If Apple and other companies were to build a plant in the US, then you can be sure it would be heavily automated. There is no incentive for Foxconn and others to invest in this automation, as labour is so cheap.
If costs are indeed higher, then maybe it might be offset by the tax cuts and other incentives, and quality/leaks could be controlled better.
Yeah, they won't be hiring 50K employees, but 3K more jobs is a hell of a lot better than Zero more.
oh, and these are just general comments, not pro any specific political representatives
Manufacturing engineers. Of the one million people making iPhones, how many of them are manufacturing engineers? In the ten years time that one billion iPhones have been built, let's say a couple hundred thousand manufacturing engineers have been trained. Maybe Donald Trump will be so kind as to get his magic pixie want and go around rural Pennsylvania and Austin Texas, and Janesville Wisconsin and say "Ding! You're a manufacturing engineer!! Go forth and build iPhones in the USA". So easy.
Let's think out of the box (I hate that expression).
What if the government(s) said: There are many things that the private sector can do better and more efficiently than the government. Rather than pass regulations, form bureaucracies, etc. to get the results -- wouldn't it be better to make an offer[s] they can't refuse to the private sector.
Something like this:
We, the government(s) will provide a safe, secure place to perform, and will offer incentives to you (private companies) to provide the services we need! *
* This is how we get Utility companies, for example.
So, the Jobs Czar says: Hey Apple we need jobs in Youngstown, Aliquippa, Chicago South Side... What can you do to train and place people in these areas.
Apple might respond: We can train and place people in [themanufacturing of]application programs (or building and maintaining robots)...
During the training, the students would be paid a good wage by the government(s).
Oh, by the way, we also need facilities to train/house/feed these people -- let's get a private sector project to repair, build and maintain the necessary infrastructure.
The fan out of new jobs/SMBs would be tremendous!
Finally, a job returned to an outsourced [rustbelt] job does not necessarily need to be the same as the job that was lost -- it can be a better job with a better future!
While it wouldn't necessarily surprise me, I really hope Trump is employing economic advisers who know a bit more about macroeconomics than a 101 class and the most basic of supply and demand models.
It's ok for ignoramuses on the internet to be stuck at that level, but not people who actually have influence over policy.
Mr. Trump, how about pressuring Samsung, LG and most importantly Chinese phone companies like Huawei trying to enter North American market to manufacturer their phones or products here in USA ? If you can't do that than get off Apple's back.
Samsung, LG, and Chinese phone companies are not American companies, so who cares where they are made?
Hilary lost the electoral votes but wins the popular votes by two million votes. I think it is primarily due to the unpopular Obamacare among the worker in the industrial states of Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Ohio, etc. Next year their premiums will jump and Hilary made little effort to address this issue.
Nah, it doesn't have anything to do with industrial states and Affordable Care Act because any company that has more than 50 employees is mandated to provide healthcare. Those states are no different than any other when it comes small businesses where the workers may be required to buy their own insurance.
When you have only terrible choices it is anyone's election to win or lose. It was more about Trump's promise to bring manufacturing back to the rust belt that tipped the scales. Of course it is easier said than done.
And Steve Bannon gets credit for half of America believing that Trump could/would do it and every other vow that he's already backing off from.
Manufacturing engineers. Of the one million people making iPhones, how many of them are manufacturing engineers? In the ten years time that one billion iPhones have been built, let's say a couple hundred thousand manufacturing engineers have been trained. Maybe Donald Trump will be so kind as to get his magic pixie want and go around rural Pennsylvania and Austin Texas, and Janesville Wisconsin and say "Ding! You're a manufacturing engineer!! Go forth and build iPhones in the USA". So easy.
Let's think out of the box (I hate that expression).
What if the government(s) said: There are many things that the private sector can do better and more efficiently than the government. Rather than pass regulations, form bureaucracies, etc. to get the results -- wouldn't it be better to make an offer[s] they can't refuse to the private sector.
Something like this:
We, the government(s) will provide a safe, secure place to perform, and will offer incentives to you (private companies) to provide the services we need! *
* This is how we get Utility companies, for example.
So, the Jobs Czar says: Hey Apple we need jobs in Youngstown, Aliquippa, Chicago South Side... What can you do to train and place people in these areas.
Apple might respond: We can train and place people in [themanufacturing of]application programs (or building and maintaining robots)...
During the training, the students would be paid a good wage by the government(s).
Oh, by the way, we also need facilities to train/house/feed these people -- let's get a private sector project to repair, build and maintain the necessary infrastructure.
The fan out of new jobs/SMBs would be tremendous!
Finally, a job returned to an outsourced [rustbelt] job does not necessarily need to be the same as the job that was lost -- it can be a better job with a better future!
So the government funds all of this but Trump wants to cut taxes. Where does the money come from? Right now he's using the stick - tariffs - you're suggesting the carrot but the government has no carrots to give
Manufacturing engineers. Of the one million people making iPhones, how many of them are manufacturing engineers? In the ten years time that one billion iPhones have been built, let's say a couple hundred thousand manufacturing engineers have been trained. Maybe Donald Trump will be so kind as to get his magic pixie want and go around rural Pennsylvania and Austin Texas, and Janesville Wisconsin and say "Ding! You're a manufacturing engineer!! Go forth and build iPhones in the USA". So easy.
Let's think out of the box (I hate that expression).
What if the government(s) said: There are many things that the private sector can do better and more efficiently than the government. Rather than pass regulations, form bureaucracies, etc. to get the results -- wouldn't it be better to make an offer[s] they can't refuse to the private sector.
Something like this:
We, the government(s) will provide a safe, secure place to perform, and will offer incentives to you (private companies) to provide the services we need! *
* This is how we get Utility companies, for example.
So, the Jobs Czar says: Hey Apple we need jobs in Youngstown, Aliquippa, Chicago South Side... What can you do to train and place people in these areas.
Apple might respond: We can train and place people in [themanufacturing of]application programs (or building and maintaining robots)...
During the training, the students would be paid a good wage by the government(s).
Oh, by the way, we also need facilities to train/house/feed these people -- let's get a private sector project to repair, build and maintain the necessary infrastructure.
The fan out of new jobs/SMBs would be tremendous!
Finally, a job returned to an outsourced [rustbelt] job does not necessarily need to be the same as the job that was lost -- it can be a better job with a better future!
So the government funds all of this but Trump wants to cut taxes. Where does the money come from? Right now he's using the stick - tariffs - you're suggesting the carrot but the government has no carrots to give
1) Repatriation of over $2Trillion cash held overseas by US Corporations @ 10%
2) Reduction of US Corporate taxes to 15%
3) Future US Corporate taxes on overseas sales = 15% less taxes paid overseas
4) Change the US from one of the highest-taxed business environment to be more competitive with other countries
The above should encourage investment in the US economy by both US and Foreign companies.
5) Reduction of individual Income taxes
More money in citizens pockets == more money to spend and invest
7) Thoughtful repeal and delay/replace of ACA
This should encourage SMBs to hire more employees
SMBs will also benefit from lower individual tax rates -- and may benefit by changing chapter S rules.
I am old enough to remember when Elvis paid income taxes at 98%. This lead to all kinds of creative tax-avoidance schemes by the millionaires who could afford it.
JFK greatly reduced personal income taxes, as did Reagan -- the results were massive inflow of $ to the treasury instead of expensive tax-avoidance schemes.
It comes down to this, IMO:
Do you want to invest this money to seed good jobs, infrastructure improvements, growth of the economy -- or big government mandates like $15/hr for burger flippers and an entitlement economy.
Others have said it, but JFK said it best: A raising tide lifts all boats!
Trump is barking up the wrong tree. It's not in Tim Cook's hands where iPhones are made. People like to think Apple closed down its American factories and moved them to China to save money. That's not what happened. Apple closed down every single one of its factories in the entire world. Apple doesn't want to be in manufacturing. Apple designs all the components for its devices. It then pays component manufacturers to make them according to Apple's specifications. Those component manufacturers are located all over the world. Some of them are even in the USA.
Bottom line is that Apple cannot "move manufacturing back to the USA" because it doesn't own any manufacturing plants to begin with.
But Apple does want to manufacture it's own products if it reaches cost parity with outsourcing it to others.
first, I doubt the premise of your argument (they don't want to own),
2nd, your argument is self defeating, as there is huge risk in owning your manufacturing, which drives cost up... If apple builds a iPhone 8 factory, it's obsolete when the iPhone 10 comes about, yet you have to depreciate the CapEx for at least 7 years. that's five years of boatanchor cost on the books.
3rd. When the do own their manufacturing... it will be robotic, and the whole premise of onshoring the labor is a moot argument. Apple will have 50,000 robots and 10 truck drivers, vs the 250K workers and 10K truck drivers in China. Now you've put 2 world economies out of work;-). And anything innovative that obsoletes the robots... well, see point 2.
Apple's model now is to design the Manufacturing fab, 'pay' foxconn to deploy it up front, establish volume pricing for 12-36 months, with option to drop deals only on Apple's end. Apple gets what they want, they know the price of product for 3 years, and if the market tells them to cut the capacity early, they drop it at no risk. Yeah, those factory workers are told to not come to work the next day, but that would happen in the US as well.
Apple already has Foxcon scoping out the US to see if we have enough 8 year olds to put to work except for those nasty work regulations about child labor, Trump to the rescue. Be reminded that you can already sign your 8 year old for the Apple sponsored Hour of Code training to get them ready for coding work!
Hilary lost the electoral votes but wins the popular votes by two million votes. I think it is primarily due to the unpopular Obamacare among the worker in the industrial states of Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Ohio, etc. Next year their premiums will jump and Hilary made little effort to address this issue.
Nah, it doesn't have anything to do with industrial states and Affordable Care Act because any company that has more than 50 employees is mandated to provide healthcare. Those states are no different than any other when it comes small businesses where the workers may be required to buy their own insurance.
When you have only terrible choices it is anyone's election to win or lose. It was more about Trump's promise to bring manufacturing back to the rust belt that tipped the scales. Of course it is easier said than done.
Well, for the company has more than 50 employees, its the owners that are unhappy about the dramatic premium raise. For the small stores do you think they have more than 50 employees?
Comments
Does no one watch "American Greed"? This is exactly how it always starts: X promises all these wonderful things, people line up, for 6 months they see dividends, then those stop and their phone calls are no longer taken.
flaneur said:
Thanks for the Godwin (and for being wrong).
Three years without being touched; I’d say so.
Literally take Econ 101.
Guess what he has said for literally THIRTY YEARS that he would do.
And shat up the world ever since. It’s time we return to sane trade policy. Sane monetary policy (we don’t have a monetary policy at all right now) is next.
Citation needed.
Oh, so you instantly disprove your own claim. Got it.
lol, he wants to return to the gold standard. That’s grounds for a bullet to the head from those who run the Treasury. Get a clue.
Citation needed.
Thanks for repeating MSNBC’s latest talking point. Read a goddamn history book. Thanks for the defeatism. It’s not viable, but thanks for it anyway.
I disagree!
Consider (from the article):
IMO, many things are tied together: lower corporate taxes, repatriation of overseas cash holdings, lower individual taxes, fewer regulations, rebuilding the infrastructure == jobs and self worth.
Trump is certainly not the first choice for many of us...
But reflecting on the issues, Who is more likely to make the changes needed: An outsider who has succeeded (and failed) with no political debts -- or an insider who has obligations to the status quo?
People talked about the "Obama Derangement Syndrome." I think it's time to replace it with "TDS."
As for the skills, i would find it hard to believe that there aren't a few people in the whole of the US who dont know this stuff. Many would probably work in Apple already and oversee things in Asian factories. If Apple and other companies were to build a plant in the US, then you can be sure it would be heavily automated. There is no incentive for Foxconn and others to invest in this automation, as labour is so cheap.
If costs are indeed higher, then maybe it might be offset by the tax cuts and other incentives, and quality/leaks could be controlled better.
Yeah, they won't be hiring 50K employees, but 3K more jobs is a hell of a lot better than Zero more.
oh, and these are just general comments, not pro any specific political representatives
Let's think out of the box (I hate that expression).
What if the government(s) said: There are many things that the private sector can do better and more efficiently than the government. Rather than pass regulations, form bureaucracies, etc. to get the results -- wouldn't it be better to make an offer[s] they can't refuse to the private sector.
Something like this:
We, the government(s) will provide a safe, secure place to perform, and will offer incentives to you (private companies) to provide the services we need! *
* This is how we get Utility companies, for example.
So, the Jobs Czar says: Hey Apple we need jobs in Youngstown, Aliquippa, Chicago South Side... What can you do to train and place people in these areas.
Apple might respond: We can train and place people in [the manufacturing of] application programs (or building and maintaining robots)...
During the training, the students would be paid a good wage by the government(s).
Oh, by the way, we also need facilities to train/house/feed these people -- let's get a private sector project to repair, build and maintain the necessary infrastructure.
The fan out of new jobs/SMBs would be tremendous!
Finally, a job returned to an outsourced [rustbelt] job does not necessarily need to be the same as the job that was lost -- it can be a better job with a better future!
It's ok for ignoramuses on the internet to be stuck at that level, but not people who actually have influence over policy.
Samsung, LG, and Chinese phone companies are not American companies, so who cares where they are made?
1) Repatriation of over $2Trillion cash held overseas by US Corporations @ 10%
2) Reduction of US Corporate taxes to 15%
3) Future US Corporate taxes on overseas sales = 15% less taxes paid overseas
4) Change the US from one of the highest-taxed business environment to be more competitive with other countries
The above should encourage investment in the US economy by both US and Foreign companies.
5) Reduction of individual Income taxes
More money in citizens pockets == more money to spend and invest
7) Thoughtful repeal and delay/replace of ACA
This should encourage SMBs to hire more employees
SMBs will also benefit from lower individual tax rates -- and may benefit by changing chapter S rules.
I am old enough to remember when Elvis paid income taxes at 98%. This lead to all kinds of creative tax-avoidance schemes by the millionaires who could afford it.
JFK greatly reduced personal income taxes, as did Reagan -- the results were massive inflow of $ to the treasury instead of expensive tax-avoidance schemes.
It comes down to this, IMO:
Do you want to invest this money to seed good jobs, infrastructure improvements, growth of the economy -- or big government mandates like $15/hr for burger flippers and an entitlement economy.
Others have said it, but JFK said it best: A raising tide lifts all boats!
2nd, your argument is self defeating, as there is huge risk in owning your manufacturing, which drives cost up... If apple builds a iPhone 8 factory, it's obsolete when the iPhone 10 comes about, yet you have to depreciate the CapEx for at least 7 years. that's five years of boatanchor cost on the books.
3rd. When the do own their manufacturing... it will be robotic, and the whole premise of onshoring the labor is a moot argument. Apple will have 50,000 robots and 10 truck drivers, vs the 250K workers and 10K truck drivers in China. Now you've put 2 world economies out of work;-). And anything innovative that obsoletes the robots... well, see point 2.
Apple's model now is to design the Manufacturing fab, 'pay' foxconn to deploy it up front, establish volume pricing for 12-36 months, with option to drop deals only on Apple's end. Apple gets what they want, they know the price of product for 3 years, and if the market tells them to cut the capacity early, they drop it at no risk. Yeah, those factory workers are told to not come to work the next day, but that would happen in the US as well.