Touch Bar keyboards, 'modest' Mac upgrades on Apple's slate for 2017

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 60
    danvmdanvm Posts: 791member
    sog35 said:
    danvm said:
    sog35 said:
    danvm said:
    sog35 said:
    danvm said:
    sog35 said:
    Here we go again with the tepid improvements. Apple got its cred by under promising and over delivering; by dropping unbelievably cool products on us. Now all we get in the Mac line are excuses and justifications. I'm not buying the "mature" product argument anymore. The automobile was about as mature as you could get, and then came Tesla. Come on, Apple, Tesla us. Be Apple again. Hoist up the pirate flags and deliver an insanely great, totally unexpected paradigm shifting Mac again. 
    sorry friend, but Apple makes profit unlike Tesla.

    bottom line is PC's are not only a mature product but they have been SURPASSED by mobile devices and wearables.

    This is like expecting Tesla to 'wow us' with a horse and buggy design.

    PC is dead. Don't expect big innovation from the PC space anymore.
    Surface Studio is evidence that you can innovate in the desktop market.  Apple is the one that ignores it because of the "fridge/toaster" thing.  And looks like MS proved them wrong. 

    The only reason Microsoft is focusing so much on PC is because it feeds its cash cows (windows/office) and because they absolutely FAILED at mobile

    Same for Apple, that focus so much in mobile, because it feeds their cash cows (iOS devices).


    Sorry holmes. Microsoft has sold so few Surface Studios that they won't even mention how many units they sold. Surface Studio is a niche product or a niche product. 


    My reply was to your post,

    "The only reason Microsoft is focusing so much on PC is because it feeds its cash cows (windows/office) "

    Windows / Office aren't niche products.  The Surface Studio is a niche device, focused in designers and artists. But it's interesting how the "niche" device showed how slow Apple have become in innovation.  They proved that desktop touchscreen are usable, while Apple went with the toaster / fridge "logic".   
    WRONG.

    Microsoft still has not proven a touch desktop is usable. They have sold so few Surface Studio units, it has proven NOTHING. 

    When Microsoft is selling tens of millions of touch desktops then we can talk.
    If sales numbers is what define what is usable, then macOS is completely useless compared to Windows, same as Android, which is ahead of iOS.
    sales numbers isn't everything.

    But when a device only sales a couple thousand units, that is not enough proof that the device is successful.

    Over the last 5 years, Apple has sold well over 70 million Mac's. There is not question the Mac platform is here to stay. Can't say the same thing about the Surface Studio
    You say sales aren't everything, but then point to the 70M Mac's that were sold.  Lenovo, HP and Dell sold far more devices than that.  Does that mean Mac's are useless? 

    I remember a lot of people here saying that the Surface line will be dead by now, because touch screen in a notebook was useless, and they were wrong.  It is very expensive, and may never sell to the iMac levels (which isn't that big either, compared to sales of HP, Dell and Lenovo).  What it's clear is that MS made a big impact with the Surface Studio.

    Google for Surface Studio reviews, and you'll see that most of them are very positive.  So it looks like based in the experience of those users, it has been a success.  And that's the V1 of the product. 




  • Reply 22 of 60
    sog35 said:
    Here we go again with the tepid improvements. Apple got its cred by under promising and over delivering; by dropping unbelievably cool products on us. Now all we get in the Mac line are excuses and justifications. I'm not buying the "mature" product argument anymore. The automobile was about as mature as you could get, and then came Tesla. Come on, Apple, Tesla us. Be Apple again. Hoist up the pirate flags and deliver an insanely great, totally unexpected paradigm shifting Mac again. 
    sorry friend, but Apple makes profit unlike Tesla.

    bottom line is PC's are not only a mature product but they have been SURPASSED by mobile devices and wearables.

    This is like expecting Tesla to 'wow us' with a horse and buggy design.

    PC is dead. Don't expect big innovation from the PC space anymore.

    The only reason Microsoft is focusing so much on PC is because it feeds its cash cows (windows/office) and because they absolutely FAILED at mobile
    PC is dead only in the mass consumer market. Steve once called them trucks. For some tasks you need a truck, or at least an SUV. Even if it were possible to do the SFX for Star Wars on an iPhone, no one who does that work would. All I am asking is for Apple to do more in that space. Bring back a "cheese grater" style Mac Pro for those who need it. I don't need innovation there so much as parity with the performance and features of my son's deluxe gaming PC. Doesn't seem like too much to ask. Apple making a profit and all that. 
    This. The Mac will ALWAYS be needed. 

    I own an iPhone, iPad, iPad Pro, iMac 5k, and 15" MBP with touch bar. 

    I like to to read and watch on iPad Pro. iPad 4 is for double duty only. iPhone I use for text, phone, light email, weather, etc. 

    once in a while, I'll use the iPhone or iPad Pro to do create some social media graphics. 

    But it nothing gets a workout like the Macs. Editing videos, graphic design, web dev, bookmaking, even email, web use, and word documents and spreadsheets are much better done on the Macs. 

    I LOVE my iPad Pro. It's awesome. But there will never be a replacement for the Mac. 

    The WHEEL is a mature design... and there will never be a replacement for it. Various takes on that findamdbtal design will show up. But it's still a wheel. Even tank treads need wheel designs. 

    Just because the mouse and keyboard came first doesn't mean they aren't the absolute best way to accomplish certain tasks. They absolutely are. 

    Apple recognizes this this and it's why we have a touch bar that has been painstakingly thought through to achieve what's actually useful versus just slapping a touch layer on your screen. 

    Using a touch screen on anything other than mobile gets old fast. 

    Apple got got it right and they're headed in the right direction. 

    One of the hallmarks of Apples greatness isn't just the ability to create new things, but also to say NO to things that might seem "cool" or faux innovative just for the sake of touring a feature. 

    I certsinly hope hope they continue to be bold like that. 
    ration alcanukstormmacplusplusdysamoriawatto_cobra
  • Reply 23 of 60
    nhtnht Posts: 4,494member
    USB-C is a great port. It's universal, non-proprietary, and very flexible. I didn't need the legacy ports like firewire ethernet, SD, etc. So removing them and removing their controller chips and power draws results in a machine that is more efficient. Then anybody who needs those other things can use an adapter, rather than forcing that tradeoff onto everyone. 
    Dell and HP have TB3/USB docking stations now.  That will drive down the price of TB3 docking stations overall as more and more of the PC world goes USB-C/TB3.

    Its a great move for Apple.
  • Reply 24 of 60
    sog35 said:
    While I understand that the desktop computer isn't as profitable as it once was and that iOS is the way of the future, the fact remains that those great iOS apps need to be developed somewhere. And what better place than on a Mac with Xcode. They'll always be required, until there's a better way to do it I guess. 
    xcode is coming to iOS in a few years
    I'm sure many would hope so

    Apple now has iOS/watchOS, tvOS and macOS.  AFAICT, all have the File System and other System capabilities-- but these are only exposed to the users of macOS.  

    There are varying degrees of reasons for this -- iOS/watchOS requires a greater level of privacy, security and sandboxing to reliably provide services to iPhones and AppleWatches.  tvOS and macOS do not have the same needs for privacy, security and sandboxing.

    Nor, does the iPad.  But, because of the Touch UI, the iPad runs iOS -- and is encumbered with iOS limitations needed for the iPhone/iWatch...

    The iPad is the odd man out.

    Some have suggested that the solution is to run macOS on the iPad!

    I'm coming to believe that a better approach would be to have an OS somewhere between iOS and macOS which would support Pro users on the iPad.  Apple could call it padOS -- though I like the sound of proOS.

    IMO, proOS would expose the File System, CLI, allow more robust multitasking, direct connection to a Mac or another iPad as an equal player -- not just a peripheral.  

    iPad hardware could be enhanced to support more RAM, Storage, Bandwidth, high-speed ports, kb with trackpad, etc.

    This iPad could be used to advantage, stand-alone or in conjunction with a Mac -- by Pro developers, artists, AV editors, writers and other creatives.

    FWIW, the iPad Playgrounds app (written Swift) is very close to Xcode Playgrounds... I suspect that Xcode is being rewritten in Swift, too.


    edited December 2016 jbishop1039
  • Reply 25 of 60
    Better GPUs don't depend on Intel, nor does a return to a more expandable chassis design-if you want to call it a 'pro' machine. Maybe they're under promising again?

    In all honesty I think they are being hamstrung by Intel at least on the mobile side of things. They want to move forward with USB-C and Thunderbolt 3 which is only available on a small subsets of processors.  For instance, there is only one Xeon processor that could go in the MacPro lineup right now and the rest of the roadmap from Intel has been delayed by up to two years.  Unfortunately Apple has pinned it's success on a company that is also focusing on mobile now, so they are unlikely to see massive improvements.

    The one way Apple can get out of this of course is to design its own processors and chipsets for the laptop segment.  They may have already seen the writing on the wall and started down that design path (which takes years).  But in the meantime, what else do you expect the company to do when the company that makes the core components is happy with the status quo?  You get exactly what Apple is doing... better screens, better keyboard, thinner design and a Touch Bar.  Things that Apple can control directly and that is not tied to Intel.
    elijahg
  • Reply 26 of 60


    Then to see their laptop line adopt a gimmick like the Touch Bar...and remove all ports except USB-C...it really makes me wonder what they are thinking. I like Apple products, and they will sell millions of units regardless of what I think, but it's still frustrating.
    Gimmick? Have you used to the Touch Bar? Because all the reviews and user reviews say quite clearly that it's not a gimmick and adds value. What are you basing your opinion on? People aren't dummies -- Apple can't sell millions and millions of a thing if it's useless. 

    USB-C is a great port. It's universal, non-proprietary, and very flexible. I didn't need the legacy ports like firewire ethernet, SD, etc. So removing them and removing their controller chips and power draws results in a machine that is more efficient. Then anybody who needs those other things can use an adapter, rather than forcing that tradeoff onto everyone. 
    I disagree, then agree.

    The Touch Bar is complete bullshit and a gimmick.  It is cool for the first day.  It has not added significant productivity.  I will say that maybe this is me not being used to incorporating it yet but I doubt it.

    The USBC is a great port.  A little clumsy when you have many devices that don't have that but once you spend $300 on cables and adapters it works just fine.  Once you adopt it you appreciate what it is.
  • Reply 27 of 60
    I know, for some, this is borderline blasphemy, but I wonder if Apple would consider licensing macOS to other vendors again.

    I think some of the comments in this thread have already pointed out the obvious issues: PCs are a mature and quickly commoditizing product...Mac Pro in particular sells too few to make it worth even yearly updates.

    Now while I love Apple hardware, particularly laptops...I really love macOS.

    Just sort of wondering out loud whether this could be the future (again) and we return to buying annual (or semi-annual) macOS updates for $49 to $99 bucks and running it on whatever hardware you want.

    P.S. Another path forward might be the following:

    1. A primarily laptop line (almost there anyway)
    2. Drop iMac
    3. Combine Pro and Mac Mini into one product/product line

    edited December 2016 canukstorm
  • Reply 28 of 60
    If this is true, then...

    "Magic" (<rolleyes>) Keyboard with Touch Bar - $299
    "Magic" Keyboard with Touch Bar and TouchID - $369
    edited December 2016 dysamoria
  • Reply 29 of 60
    I'm so conflicted about my feelings about the direction Apple is heading. I'm a decades long Apple fan, but when I look at Amazon's Echo/Alexa and think "that should have been Apple". Siri has languished. I see skinny cable offerings from Sling and others and think "that should have been Apple". The lackluster 2016 product lineup and the emphasis on rebranding itself as a maker of high end luxury appliances is leaving me disillusioned. I was in dire need of a laptop update and unenthusiastically pre-ordered the 15" MacBook Pro (I cancelled a previous preorder after some thought and have considered cancelling this current order on several occasions). By the way, do any of you think that Apple introduce a 15" MacBook Pro WITHOUT touchbar sometime next year at a lower price? That would have appealed to me. I'm not feeling the touchbar (no pun intended)
    elijahg
  • Reply 30 of 60
    k2kwk2kw Posts: 1,767member
    I posted this in another thread but since that one was late and will get buried...

    I hate that type of rubbish that Cook is spouting.

    How difficult is it to simply come out with a model update regularly that has a faster processor, new graphics card, and maybe new ports (Thunderbolt 3, USB-C, etc).? Apple itself is probably making it harder to do this by inherently making designs non-upgradable.

    The main problem is Apple thinks they need to reinvent the wheel every time they come out with a desktop. The cylinder Mac Pro is a perfect example...it's more about visual aesthetic then anything else. They probably spent years refining the cylinder. The Mac mini is the Cube concept refined to it's maximum (minus any thought for upgradability or expandability).

    Then to see their laptop line adopt a gimmick like the Touch Bar...and remove all ports except USB-C...it really makes me wonder what they are thinking. I like Apple products, and they will sell millions of units regardless of what I think, but it's still frustrating.

    I would be happy if they would update their Computers every two years (or less). 
    It doesn't have to be a big redesign every time, but should at least keep Apple computers from falling to far behind.
    That said having released the TouchBar Apple really should get behind it 100% and put it on every computer that they sell
    within a year including the MacBook and  Mac Mini and Mac Pro using either a wired keyboard or BlueTooth Keyboard.  Not just the 
    MacBookPro.   If this feature is more than a gimmick Apple shouldn't charge more for this.    Its the one thing that says macOS
    is the computer system for the next decade and not Windows 10.   If its as good as Shiller says it will lock existing users into the Mac and bring new users over from Windows.

    Cook seems too much like Chance the Garner from Being There. 

    "Some engineers were allegedly hoping to add Touch ID and a second USB-C port to this year's model, but instead had to settle for a speed boost and the new rose gold color."    Comments like this from the article make me think that a lot of it is Marketing spin to get the executives off the hook.   I can't image any engineer really wanting or caring for the "rose gold color"    I tend to think that they purposely withheld the TouchID from this year's MacBook to make the MacBook Pro look better when introduced with TouchID.

    You also know its Marking spin because it blames the Manufacturing in Austin as the reason why there hasn't been an update.   No Apple's really getting ready to do a ShakeDown of Texas and the Trump administration in a similar way to how Carrier scored tax breaks in Indiana.


  • Reply 31 of 60
    k2kwk2kw Posts: 1,767member

    sog35 said: 
    The market for the MacPro is too small to make yearly updates
    How do you know this?    I've never have seen numbers on the number of units sold for either the Mac Pro or any other Mac Computer.  
    And with 3 years since the last update of course the number selling now would be incredibly low (I'm not sure who would want one that old).
    I think lots of people (myself included) would be thrilled if Apple would update their computers every two year (roughly).   
    Apple is basically killing a Multi-billion dollar business.    Soon they will start calling it a "hobby" like the Apple TV.
    elijahgdysamoria
  • Reply 32 of 60
    irelandireland Posts: 17,653member
    sog35 said:
    Here we go again with the tepid improvements. Apple got its cred by under promising and over delivering; by dropping unbelievably cool products on us. Now all we get in the Mac line are excuses and justifications. I'm not buying the "mature" product argument anymore. The automobile was about as mature as you could get, and then came Tesla. Come on, Apple, Tesla us. Be Apple again. Hoist up the pirate flags and deliver an insanely great, totally unexpected paradigm shifting Mac again. 
    sorry friend, but Apple makes profit unlike Tesla.

    bottom line is PC's are not only a mature product but they have been SURPASSED by mobile devices and wearables.

    This is like expecting Tesla to 'wow us' with a horse and buggy design.

    PC is dead. Don't expect big innovation from the PC space anymore.

    The only reason Microsoft is focusing so much on PC is because it feeds its cash cows (windows/office) and because they absolutely FAILED at mobile
    Are you two people trapped in one body?
    elijahgdysamoriasnype719
  • Reply 33 of 60
    If only the MacBook was 13" instead of 12".
    edited December 2016
  • Reply 34 of 60
    zoetmbzoetmb Posts: 2,471member
    sog35 said:
    Here we go again with the tepid improvements. Apple got its cred by under promising and over delivering; by dropping unbelievably cool products on us. Now all we get in the Mac line are excuses and justifications. I'm not buying the "mature" product argument anymore. The automobile was about as mature as you could get, and then came Tesla. Come on, Apple, Tesla us. Be Apple again. Hoist up the pirate flags and deliver an insanely great, totally unexpected paradigm shifting Mac again. 
    sorry friend, but Apple makes profit unlike Tesla.

    bottom line is PC's are not only a mature product but they have been SURPASSED by mobile devices and wearables.

    This is like expecting Tesla to 'wow us' with a horse and buggy design.

    PC is dead. Don't expect big innovation from the PC space anymore.

    The only reason Microsoft is focusing so much on PC is because it feeds its cash cows (windows/office) and because they absolutely FAILED at mobile
    PC is dead only in the mass consumer market. Steve once called them trucks. For some tasks you need a truck, or at least an SUV. Even if it were possible to do the SFX for Star Wars on an iPhone, no one who does that work would. All I am asking is for Apple to do more in that space. Bring back a "cheese grater" style Mac Pro for those who need it. I don't need innovation there so much as parity with the performance and features of my son's deluxe gaming PC. Doesn't seem like too much to ask. Apple making a profit and all that. 
    Computers are not "dead" in the consumer market.   But for what most people do with PC's (and Macs), they don't need to upgrade them very often because for most non-game applications, with the possible exception of video editing and processing and artificial reality apps, one really doesn't need any more horsepower than they already have.  So while overall sales are down from what they once were, it's not because people aren't using computers - it's because upgrade cycles have become very long.

    And PCs/Macs are certainly not dead in the business market.   I now consult for a company that's moved into a "WeWork" shared facility.  As I walk around the floor, every single person in every single of the 60-odd companies there has a computer on their desk.    When I go visit the clients of the company I consult for, every single person in every single company has a computer on their desk. There are some who also use iPads and certainly a lot of people do email or messaging on their phone, but they still have a computer.  But a lot of them have very old computers.   Why?  Because for email, messaging, enterprise apps, Word, Excel, Powerpoint, and coding, etc., you don't need a lot of horsepower.    

    The problem for Apple if they don't continue to innovate the computer line is that once someone walks away from Apple's computers (for whatever reason), they're out of the ecosystem.  And once they're out of the ecosystem, it's easier to also walk away from the iPhone.  

    As the phone companies are mostly not subsidizing phones anymore and as the technology matures, I predict that upgrade cycles for phones are going to get longer and longer as well.   Apple better be working on some new product lines, because iPhone sales are going to drop just as computer and Pad sales have.   And it doesn't look like the Apple Watch is the answer to erosion in the other product lines. 

    I do agree that Apple should bring back a tower configuration that is completely modular and can be configured, maintained and repaired by end-users.   But they won't, because Apple is still a very arrogant company and Ive doesn't like doors or seams.  But even if they did, I wouldn't expect it to sell very well, but it would sell to programmers and techies and the like and by creating a machine that they actually want and like, would gain Apple some credibility. 
    macplusplusdysamoria
  • Reply 35 of 60
    dacloodacloo Posts: 890member
    Gimmick? Have you used to the Touch Bar? 
    Well, have you? Because you're mention 'reviews point out it's great'.

    I have the new MacBook Pro and I can tell you it's a gimmick. It's dumb. Instead of feeling the function keys (muscle memory), you now have to look at the keyboard to search for it!

    Apple clearly ignored people don't look at the keyboard and type 'blindly'.
    The Touch Bar gets into sleep mode as well, so sometimes that means I have to tap the bar repeaditly to wake it up. How's that intuitive and 'added value'? The only 'added value' is for Apple: around $300 to be precise.

    This should have stayed in their R&D lab as a failed experiment, which would have been fine.

    Related note: the keyboard is LOUD. Not ideal for meetings and at conferences.

    Rayz2016dysamoria
  • Reply 36 of 60
    dacloodacloo Posts: 890member
    sog35 said:
    HP, Lenovo and Dell have updated their workstations with the latest CPUs and GPU's for the last three years, while Apple haven't done anything to the Mac Pro.  They still sell it at the same price of 3yrs ago.  It's true that you don't need to update every year, but three years (and counting) is just wrong. 
    The market for the MacPro is too small to make yearly updates
    That's something Apple created themselves by not focusing on pros anymore. Yes it's a smaller market, but releasing a black wine cooler that can't be expanded and upgraded scares away the pros. The machine is one of the biggest design failures of Apple, who innovated for the sake of innovation. Innovation is an instrument, a means to an end, not a goal itself. 
    macplusplusdysamoriasnype719
  • Reply 37 of 60
    I posted this in another thread but since that one was late and will get buried...

    I hate that type of rubbish that Cook is spouting.

    How difficult is it to simply come out with a model update regularly that has a faster processor, new graphics card, and maybe new ports (Thunderbolt 3, USB-C, etc).? Apple itself is probably making it harder to do this by inherently making designs non-upgradable.

    The main problem is Apple thinks they need to reinvent the wheel every time they come out with a desktop. The cylinder Mac Pro is a perfect example...it's more about visual aesthetic then anything else. They probably spent years refining the cylinder. The Mac mini is the Cube concept refined to it's maximum (minus any thought for upgradability or expandability).

    Then to see their laptop line adopt a gimmick like the Touch Bar...and remove all ports except USB-C...it really makes me wonder what they are thinking. I like Apple products, and they will sell millions of units regardless of what I think, but it's still frustrating.

    How I wish this was buried on this thread as well...
    Rayz2016watto_cobra
  • Reply 38 of 60
    danvm said:
    sog35 said:
    danvm said:
    sog35 said:
    Here we go again with the tepid improvements. Apple got its cred by under promising and over delivering; by dropping unbelievably cool products on us. Now all we get in the Mac line are excuses and justifications. I'm not buying the "mature" product argument anymore. The automobile was about as mature as you could get, and then came Tesla. Come on, Apple, Tesla us. Be Apple again. Hoist up the pirate flags and deliver an insanely great, totally unexpected paradigm shifting Mac again. 
    sorry friend, but Apple makes profit unlike Tesla.

    bottom line is PC's are not only a mature product but they have been SURPASSED by mobile devices and wearables.

    This is like expecting Tesla to 'wow us' with a horse and buggy design.

    PC is dead. Don't expect big innovation from the PC space anymore.
    Surface Studio is evidence that you can innovate in the desktop market.  Apple is the one that ignores it because of the "fridge/toaster" thing.  And looks like MS proved them wrong. 

    The only reason Microsoft is focusing so much on PC is because it feeds its cash cows (windows/office) and because they absolutely FAILED at mobile

    Same for Apple, that focus so much in mobile, because it feeds their cash cows (iOS devices).


    Sorry holmes. Microsoft has sold so few Surface Studios that they won't even mention how many units they sold. Surface Studio is a niche product or a niche product. 


    My reply was to your post,

    "The only reason Microsoft is focusing so much on PC is because it feeds its cash cows (windows/office) "

    Windows / Office aren't niche products.  The Surface Studio is a niche device, focused in designers and artists. But it's interesting how the "niche" device showed how slow Apple have become in innovation.  They proved that desktop touchscreen are usable, while Apple went with the toaster / fridge "logic".   

    I don't see Sog saying that Windows/ Office are niche products. He seems to say they are Microsoft's cash cows.
    watto_cobrasnype719
  • Reply 39 of 60
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 4,729member
    danvm said:
    Rayz2016 said:

    danvm said:
    sog35 said:
    Here we go again with the tepid improvements. Apple got its cred by under promising and over delivering; by dropping unbelievably cool products on us. Now all we get in the Mac line are excuses and justifications. I'm not buying the "mature" product argument anymore. The automobile was about as mature as you could get, and then came Tesla. Come on, Apple, Tesla us. Be Apple again. Hoist up the pirate flags and deliver an insanely great, totally unexpected paradigm shifting Mac again. 
    sorry friend, but Apple makes profit unlike Tesla.

    bottom line is PC's are not only a mature product but they have been SURPASSED by mobile devices and wearables.

    This is like expecting Tesla to 'wow us' with a horse and buggy design.

    PC is dead. Don't expect big innovation from the PC space anymore.
    Surface Studio is evidence that you can innovate in the desktop market.  Apple is the one that ignores it because of the "fridge/toaster" thing.  And looks like MS proved them wrong. 


    Innovation isn't the problem. Selling them in quantities to make them worthwhile is the problem. Microsoft hasn't done that yet.

    Agree, MS has no problem with innovation, Apple does.  And if you think quantities is the issue, then Apple has that too, when you consider how far ahead are HP, Dell and Lenovo in "quantities".
    Not very much actually. In fact, not all. Apple is in the top ten in terms of sales. They sell a machine that runs one operating system when almost 100% of other machines run something else. 

    By all rights they shouldnt even register as a sales blip, let alone outsell nearly 100% of their competitors. 

    edited December 2016 StrangeDayswatto_cobra
  • Reply 40 of 60
    danvm said:
    Rayz2016 said:

    danvm said:
    sog35 said:
    Here we go again with the tepid improvements. Apple got its cred by under promising and over delivering; by dropping unbelievably cool products on us. Now all we get in the Mac line are excuses and justifications. I'm not buying the "mature" product argument anymore. The automobile was about as mature as you could get, and then came Tesla. Come on, Apple, Tesla us. Be Apple again. Hoist up the pirate flags and deliver an insanely great, totally unexpected paradigm shifting Mac again. 
    sorry friend, but Apple makes profit unlike Tesla.

    bottom line is PC's are not only a mature product but they have been SURPASSED by mobile devices and wearables.

    This is like expecting Tesla to 'wow us' with a horse and buggy design.

    PC is dead. Don't expect big innovation from the PC space anymore.
    Surface Studio is evidence that you can innovate in the desktop market.  Apple is the one that ignores it because of the "fridge/toaster" thing.  And looks like MS proved them wrong. 


    Innovation isn't the problem. Selling them in quantities to make them worthwhile is the problem. Microsoft hasn't done that yet.

    Agree, MS has no problem with innovation, Apple does.  And if you think quantities is the issue, then Apple has that too, when you consider how far ahead are HP, Dell and Lenovo in "quantities".


    Nothing you said refutes anything Rayz2016 just said. He asks if it they are selling enough to justify making the Surface Studios. You are just saying "Apple doesn't sell much either! nyah! nyah!".

    Could it be that Apple hasn't updated the Mac Pro because it isn't selling much? It probably isn't worth the effort? If that is the case, then it fits with Rayz2016's statement - make items that sell.

    dysamoriaStrangeDayswatto_cobra
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