Rumor: Apple Pencil 2 coming this spring with magnets to attach to iPad, plus pocket clip

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 65
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,033member
    danvm said:
    Soli said:
    danvm said:
    Soli said:
    danvm said:
    melgross said:
    how about also including an "eraser" at the end of the Pencil
    No eraser! That's not very useful.
    That's not true at all, specially when taking handwritten notes.
    He's not saying "no eraser function," which already exists.
    I'm talking about the eraser in the stylus.  The Pen has it, and it's very useful when taking notes in meetings. 
    And the physical number pad was "very useful" for sending SMS messages on your dumbphone without looking at the screen, but I'm guessing you don't still rock a dumbphone because of that feature; so why expect a lot of complexity and cost when you can simply just make a small modification to your behaviour and likely increase your  speed from not having to flip a digital stylus to match an antiquated technology where graphite and gum couldn't be built into the same tip?

    Interesting how MS made the "complex" eraser into the Pen, and still cheaper than the Pencil.  So I don't see the "complexity and cost" an issue here.  Second, during my meetings I have to use the eraser frequently.  Don't you think it's easier to flip the Pen and erase, than move my hand or stylus out of the writing area to choose the eraser and repeat every time I have to erase?  Physical pads were useful and were replaced in phones by something that gave more benefits.  Right now, the Pencil haven't done anything better than the eraser in the Pen.  As soon it does, I'll consider it since it will benefit my workflow.  Until then, the Pen is a better option for handwritten notes.
    1) Flaneur already posted a link to iFixit. You have every right to the opinion that MS Pen is better for your needs over Apple Pencil, but you lose me when you argue that Pen beats Pencil because of a redundant feature while completely ignoring Pencil being more responsive and having more accurate sensitivity. You don't have to find these features useful to you and feel that Pen is good enough, but your discount of the R&D sounds like you're arguing that Fire Phone is best, and the iPhone is overpriced, because Fire Phone has multiple cameras on the front to create a dynamic perspective.

    2) No, it's easier to invert an entire device, re-situate it in my hand, use a specific function that will either be too limited as non-changable function or redundant if it is SW controllable, and then invert it agin and re-situate one more time to continue what I was doing instead  of tapping an icon with the tip of the stylus or a digit on my free hand.
    edited January 2017
  • Reply 42 of 65
     
    2) No, it's easier to invert an entire device, re-situate it in my hand, use a specific function that will either be too limited as non-changable function or redundant if it is SW controllable, and then invert it agin and re-situate one more time to continue what I was doing instead  of tapping an icon with the tip of the stylus or a digit on my free hand.
    I get your point, however... this invert to erase thing (which some people do in meetings to see how fast they can do it -- )  has been drilled into a lot of people's head since they where 2 years old. Might be ok for you new digital dogs, but us old dogs, its a new trick type thing. Ditto QWERTY keyboard, head phone jack etc.(am I showing my ancient-ness?)
    SpamSandwich
  • Reply 43 of 65
    dysamoriadysamoria Posts: 3,430member
    Eraser end is a natural usage case and way more immediate than toggling software settings. Wacom can do it and it's a benefit there. Their stylus doesn't even need batteries. Of course, the better Wacom stylus doesn't have an eraser end either (unless they've redesigned it since I bought mine).
  • Reply 44 of 65
    flaneurflaneur Posts: 4,526member
    dysamoria said:
    Eraser end is a natural usage case and way more immediate than toggling software settings. Wacom can do it and it's a benefit there. Their stylus doesn't even need batteries. Of course, the better Wacom stylus doesn't have an eraser end either (unless they've redesigned it since I bought mine).
    I can see it being a habitual usage case, but not natural. Someone had to invent a pencil with an eraser. Chalk, charcoal, sticks, fingers, none have erasers. 
    Soli
  • Reply 45 of 65
    flaneurflaneur Posts: 4,526member
    danvm said:
    Soli said:
    danvm said:
    melgross said:
    how about also including an "eraser" at the end of the Pencil
    No eraser! That's not very useful.
    That's not true at all, specially when taking handwritten notes.
    He's not saying "no eraser function," which already exists.
    I'm talking about the eraser in the stylus.  The Pen has it, and it's very useful when taking notes in meetings. 
    Pencil is not primarily for taking notes, as you know. It's meant for drawing and precision pointing, retouching, etc. Let the Pen be better for notetaking, because it's not so great for drawing, is it?
    Soli
  • Reply 46 of 65
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,261member
    Soli said:
    danvm said:
    Soli said:
    danvm said:
    Soli said:
    danvm said:
    melgross said:
    how about also including an "eraser" at the end of the Pencil
    No eraser! That's not very useful.
    That's not true at all, specially when taking handwritten notes.
    He's not saying "no eraser function," which already exists.
    I'm talking about the eraser in the stylus.  The Pen has it, and it's very useful when taking notes in meetings. 
    And the physical number pad was "very useful" for sending SMS messages on your dumbphone without looking at the screen, but I'm guessing you don't still rock a dumbphone because of that feature; so why expect a lot of complexity and cost when you can simply just make a small modification to your behaviour and likely increase your  speed from not having to flip a digital stylus to match an antiquated technology where graphite and gum couldn't be built into the same tip?

    Interesting how MS made the "complex" eraser into the Pen, and still cheaper than the Pencil.  So I don't see the "complexity and cost" an issue here.  Second, during my meetings I have to use the eraser frequently.  Don't you think it's easier to flip the Pen and erase, than move my hand or stylus out of the writing area to choose the eraser and repeat every time I have to erase?  Physical pads were useful and were replaced in phones by something that gave more benefits.  Right now, the Pencil haven't done anything better than the eraser in the Pen.  As soon it does, I'll consider it since it will benefit my workflow.  Until then, the Pen is a better option for handwritten notes.
    1) Flaneur already posted a link to iFixit. You have every right to the opinion that MS Pen is better for your needs over Apple Pencil, but you lose me when you argue that Pen beats Pencil because of a redundant feature while completely ignoring Pencil being more responsive and having more accurate sensitivity. You don't have to find these features useful to you and feel that Pen is good enough, but discount the R&D like you're arguing that Fire Phone is best, and the iPhone is overpriced, because Fire Phone has multiple cameras on the front to create a dynamic perspective.

    2) No, it's easier to invert an entire device, re-situate it in my hand, use a specific function that will either be too limited as non-changable function or redundant if it is SW controllable, and then invert it agin and re-situate one more time to continue what I was doing instead  of tapping an icon with the tip of the stylus or a digit on my free hand.
    1)  I never said that the Pencil isn't complex.  Just pointed out that MS made the eraser into the Pen, and I don't see any reason why Apple didn't.  The Pencil maybe more precise than the Pen, and that it's a benefit for designers and people who draw in iPads.  But not everyone is related to graphics design.  There are many doctors, students and lawyers, just to mention a few examples, where handwritten notes are part of their workflow.  And from my personal experience, the eraser makes a big difference, while the precision maybe not that important as it is when drawing. 

    2)  It's so hard for you to rotate a pencil?  At most, it takes a second.  Compare that to move my hand from the writing area to the eraser, and go back to select the writing tool.  That's awful when taking notes during meetings.  And it gets worst when taking notes in large screens as 12" iPad Pro or the Surface Pro.  MS did right thing, since it's simple and quick, and works with every application.  Compare that to move the stylus from the writing area, select the eraser (which changes from app to app), erase, go back to the writing tool and return to the writing area.  Sorry, but there is no way that's more efficient than turn around the Pen, erase and keep writing. 
  • Reply 47 of 65
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,261member
    flaneur said:
    danvm said:
    Soli said:
    danvm said:
    melgross said:
    how about also including an "eraser" at the end of the Pencil
    No eraser! That's not very useful.
    That's not true at all, specially when taking handwritten notes.
    He's not saying "no eraser function," which already exists.
    I'm talking about the eraser in the stylus.  The Pen has it, and it's very useful when taking notes in meetings. 
    Pencil is not primarily for taking notes, as you know. It's meant for drawing and precision pointing, retouching, etc. Let the Pen be better for notetaking, because it's not so great for drawing, is it?
    My line of work is not related to drawing, so I cannot answer from my experience.  But there are people have had positive experiences with the Pen as a drawing tool.

    https://www.penny-arcade.com/news/post/2016/10/26/the-surface-studio

    So it looks like even though the pencil is more precise, the Pen isn't that bad at all.
  • Reply 48 of 65
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,033member
    danvm said:
    It's so hard for you to rotate a pencil?
    The "is it so hard" argument is never good. Is it so hard to drive that you need an automatic transmission? Is it so hard to write that you need speech-to-text? Is it so hard to Google that you need Siri?

    None of those are good arguments for ignoring the obvious merely because you're more comfortable with it.

    Sorry, but there is no way that's more efficient than turn around the Pen, erase and keep writing.  
    It's clearly more efficient. Well, clear to me—obviously not clear to you, and I'm fine with that as I can only open the door, I can't make you step through it. This is grade school and we're no longer using graphite pencils. You sound an awfully lot like a Blackberry user in 2007 saying the iPhone would be impossible to type on.
    edited January 2017
  • Reply 49 of 65
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,261member
    Soli said:
    danvm said:
    It's so hard for you to rotate a pencil?
    The "is it so hard" argument is never good. Is it so hard to drive that you need an automatic transmission? Is it so hard to write that you need speech-to-text? Is it so hard to Google that you need Siri?

    None of those are good arguments for ignoring the obvious merely because you're more comfortable with it.
    I didn't see an answer to my question in your post.  So let me rephrase it.  It is more efficient to turn around a pencil, erase, turn around and write, than move your hand around the screen to find the eraser tool, return to the writing area, erase, move the hand back to the writing tool, and go back to the writing area?  It think the answer is an easy one.

    It's clearly more efficient. Well, clear to me—obviously not clear to you, and I'm fine with that as I can only open the door, I can't make you step through it. This is grade school and we're no longer using graphite pencils. You sound an awfully lot like a Blackberry user in 2007 saying the iPhone would be impossible to type on.
    No, the Pencil has nothing as simple and quick as the eraser.  The time and effort to turn around the Pen is less that what you need to do with the Pencil.  And this has nothing to do with graphite pencils, it's just simplicity and better design. 

    And regarding Blackberry, they were right.  Physical keyboard had advantages when typing.  But the onscreen keyboards have a lot of other benefits, and sacrificing the physical keyboard made sense. 

  • Reply 50 of 65
    foggyhillfoggyhill Posts: 4,767member
    Soli said:
    danvm said:
    Soli said:
    danvm said:
    Soli said:
    danvm said:
    melgross said:
    how about also including an "eraser" at the end of the Pencil
    No eraser! That's not very useful.
    That's not true at all, specially when taking handwritten notes.
    He's not saying "no eraser function," which already exists.
    I'm talking about the eraser in the stylus.  The Pen has it, and it's very useful when taking notes in meetings. 
    And the physical number pad was "very useful" for sending SMS messages on your dumbphone without looking at the screen, but I'm guessing you don't still rock a dumbphone because of that feature; so why expect a lot of complexity and cost when you can simply just make a small modification to your behaviour and likely increase your  speed from not having to flip a digital stylus to match an antiquated technology where graphite and gum couldn't be built into the same tip?

    Interesting how MS made the "complex" eraser into the Pen, and still cheaper than the Pencil.  So I don't see the "complexity and cost" an issue here.  Second, during my meetings I have to use the eraser frequently.  Don't you think it's easier to flip the Pen and erase, than move my hand or stylus out of the writing area to choose the eraser and repeat every time I have to erase?  Physical pads were useful and were replaced in phones by something that gave more benefits.  Right now, the Pencil haven't done anything better than the eraser in the Pen.  As soon it does, I'll consider it since it will benefit my workflow.  Until then, the Pen is a better option for handwritten notes.
    1) Flaneur already posted a link to iFixit. You have every right to the opinion that MS Pen is better for your needs over Apple Pencil, but you lose me when you argue that Pen beats Pencil because of a redundant feature while completely ignoring Pencil being more responsive and having more accurate sensitivity. You don't have to find these features useful to you and feel that Pen is good enough, but your discount of the R&D sounds like you're arguing that Fire Phone is best, and the iPhone is overpriced, because Fire Phone has multiple cameras on the front to create a dynamic perspective.

    2) No, it's easier to invert an entire device, re-situate it in my hand, use a specific function that will either be too limited as non-changable function or redundant if it is SW controllable, and then invert it agin and re-situate one more time to continue what I was doing instead  of tapping an icon with the tip of the stylus or a digit on my free hand.
    A real draftman (or artist) in the real world would likely use an better quality eraser in their other hand anyway instead of losing position by turning it around (I trained at it a long time ago in the 1980s and clearly remember not having an eraser on top of the pen). I had those huge graphite tubes inserted in metal tubes (still have it in fact just behind me) and you could make the tip big, small rounded, sharp or slanted depending on how you shaped it with a fine sandpaper.

    A pen with an eraser seems more like what an amateur would be doing. It's there in a normal pencil because it is a bit more convenient for casual usage than having to be sure you have your big bloc eraser with you at all time. From experience, those erasers are pretty terrible and the big ones erase a lot better.

    Having a way on the pen to switch functionality of the tip rapidly without moving it seems a lot better than turning the pen around. You can often do that using your other hand. on the tablet.




    edited January 2017 Soli
  • Reply 51 of 65
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 6,957member
    how about also including an "eraser" at the end of the Pencil
    Why? It's not a pencil.

    People here seem to arguing for skeuomorphism.   I don't see the point of pretending it's a real pencil and that it's writing on real paper; that just limits the designers in finding a better way to do things. 

    My guess is that Apple will make the pencil shorter and will introduce some sort of 3D Touch that allows access to extra functions when you squeeze it. 
    edited January 2017
  • Reply 52 of 65
    how about also including an "eraser" at the end of the Pencil
    slurpy said:
    appleric said:
    It's about time. I'm honestly confused why it takes Apple so long to provide the obvious in their innovative technology. Like adding a slot to hold the Pencil in their iPad Pro 12in Smart Cover with Keyboard, for example Some very obvious small enhancements makes a huge difference when comping to competition.
     Yes, the pencil lacks a clip and an eraser,
    ??? That sounds like a gimmick straight out of Samsung, or Microsoft.

    The Apple Pencil uses the same precision tip for erasing as it does for drawing. Hello digital.
    I see your point about the precision tip but for anyone familiar with wacom products the eraser is less about being gimmicky and more about quick access to a second tool. In many cases, an eraser. For someone who uses the pencil for illustration and artwork this is a huge time saver.
  • Reply 53 of 65
    steveausteveau Posts: 292member
    Great to have a better pencil and soon smaller form-factor iPads to use it on, but when will we get handwriting recognition built in to the OS? Siri is good for many things, but dictating to her during a meeting is not cool.
  • Reply 54 of 65
    irelandireland Posts: 17,793member
    cali said:

    melgross said:

    melgross said:
    how about also including an "eraser" at the end of the Pencil
    No eraser! That's not very useful.
    Yes, eraser. It is very useful.
    No, it's not. Software has sophisticated erase functions. Usually they don't work with a built-in eraser. And then, the charging function is a problem.
    I don't see how charging would be a problem since you can't charge and use the Pencil at the same time?

    although that does give me an idea:
    Chraging through the iPad screen. Every time you press the Pencil on the screen it charges.
    Just goes to show how easy ideas are.
  • Reply 55 of 65
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,261member
    Rayz2016 said:
    how about also including an "eraser" at the end of the Pencil
    Why? It's not a pencil.

    People here seem to arguing for skeuomorphism.   I don't see the point of pretending it's a real pencil and that it's writing on real paper; that just limits the designers in finding a better way to do things. 

    My guess is that Apple will make the pencil shorter and will introduce some sort of 3D Touch that allows access to extra functions when you squeeze it. 
    The eraser has nothing to do with skeuomorphism, or only related to designers.  There are people who take handwritten notes, like me, who benefits from it. 
  • Reply 56 of 65
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,259member
    melgross said:
    Soli said:
    melgross said:

    melgross said:
    how about also including an "eraser" at the end of the Pencil
    No eraser! That's not very useful.
    Yes, eraser. It is very useful.
    No, it's not. Software has sophisticated erase functions. Usually they don't work with a built-in eraser. And then, the charging function is a problem.
    It easily takes more time to invert and reinvent a stylus for a dedicate erase function than it it so tap the erase function with your stylus tip or with you other hand on the iPad.
    Exactly! I don't know what it is about people wanting an eraser on the back. It's clumsy, doesn't work well, and with the Pencil, will cover the charging port. I guess it's a matter of feeling that they're getting a function for free.
    It's just because it's what normals think when they think pencil -- that there should be an eraser on the end. They aren't actually using the product tho.
  • Reply 57 of 65
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,259member

    danvm said:
    Soli said:
    danvm said:
    Soli said:
    danvm said:
    melgross said:
    how about also including an "eraser" at the end of the Pencil
    No eraser! That's not very useful.
    That's not true at all, specially when taking handwritten notes.
    He's not saying "no eraser function," which already exists.
    I'm talking about the eraser in the stylus.  The Pen has it, and it's very useful when taking notes in meetings. 
    And the physical number pad was "very useful" for sending SMS messages on your dumbphone without looking at the screen, but I'm guessing you don't still rock a dumbphone because of that feature; so why expect a lot of complexity and cost when you can simply just make a small modification to your behaviour and likely increase your  speed from not having to flip a digital stylus to match an antiquated technology where graphite and gum couldn't be built into the same tip?

    Interesting how MS made the "complex" eraser into the Pen, and still cheaper than the Pencil.  So I don't see the "complexity and cost" an issue here.  Second, during my meetings I have to use the eraser frequently.  Don't you think it's easier to flip the Pen and erase, than move my hand or stylus out of the writing area to choose the eraser and repeat every time I have to erase?  Physical pads were useful and were replaced in phones by something that gave more benefits.  Right now, the Pencil haven't done anything better than the eraser in the Pen.  As soon it does, I'll consider it since it will benefit my workflow.  Until then, the Pen is a better option for handwritten notes.
    Yeah except it doesnt work as well. Oops. I tried the thing in an MS store (yes I was the only guy there and yes it felt gross), and then tried the iPP + Pencil, and the Pencil was superior hands down.
  • Reply 58 of 65
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,261member

    danvm said:
    Soli said:
    danvm said:
    Soli said:
    danvm said:
    melgross said:
    how about also including an "eraser" at the end of the Pencil
    No eraser! That's not very useful.
    That's not true at all, specially when taking handwritten notes.
    He's not saying "no eraser function," which already exists.
    I'm talking about the eraser in the stylus.  The Pen has it, and it's very useful when taking notes in meetings. 
    And the physical number pad was "very useful" for sending SMS messages on your dumbphone without looking at the screen, but I'm guessing you don't still rock a dumbphone because of that feature; so why expect a lot of complexity and cost when you can simply just make a small modification to your behaviour and likely increase your  speed from not having to flip a digital stylus to match an antiquated technology where graphite and gum couldn't be built into the same tip?

    Interesting how MS made the "complex" eraser into the Pen, and still cheaper than the Pencil.  So I don't see the "complexity and cost" an issue here.  Second, during my meetings I have to use the eraser frequently.  Don't you think it's easier to flip the Pen and erase, than move my hand or stylus out of the writing area to choose the eraser and repeat every time I have to erase?  Physical pads were useful and were replaced in phones by something that gave more benefits.  Right now, the Pencil haven't done anything better than the eraser in the Pen.  As soon it does, I'll consider it since it will benefit my workflow.  Until then, the Pen is a better option for handwritten notes.
    Yeah except it doesnt work as well. Oops. I tried the thing in an MS store (yes I was the only guy there and yes it felt gross), and then tried the iPP + Pencil, and the Pencil was superior hands down.
    Nope, it works very well for my notes, specially when you consider the eraser the Pencil don't have.  And I'm talking from my experience as a SP4 owner, not based in a few minutes in the MS Store.
  • Reply 59 of 65
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,327member
    danvm said:
    melgross said:
    how about also including an "eraser" at the end of the Pencil
    No eraser! That's not very useful.

    That's not true at all, specially when taking handwritten notes.
    You see, taking notes is very different from painting, drawing, or CAD, photo editing, etc. for all of those uses, an eraser is not a good thing at all. There are controls on the screen for that. If, as on the ipad, those controls go away if you wish, a tap brings them back. Flipping the pen around is always clumsier that's tapping the screen, particularly when you need to alter the erasers' parameters, as one often needs to do.

    and the Pencil is needed more for those aspects than it is for writing, an activity for which almost any stylus works just fine.
    Soli
  • Reply 60 of 65
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,327member
    danvm said:
    Soli said:
    danvm said:
    Soli said:
    danvm said:
    melgross said:
    how about also including an "eraser" at the end of the Pencil
    No eraser! That's not very useful.
    That's not true at all, specially when taking handwritten notes.
    He's not saying "no eraser function," which already exists.
    I'm talking about the eraser in the stylus.  The Pen has it, and it's very useful when taking notes in meetings. 
    And the physical number pad was "very useful" for sending SMS messages on your dumbphone without looking at the screen, but I'm guessing you don't still rock a dumbphone because of that feature; so why expect a lot of complexity and cost when you can simply just make a small modification to your behaviour and likely increase your  speed from not having to flip a digital stylus to match an antiquated technology where graphite and gum couldn't be built into the same tip?

    Interesting how MS made the "complex" eraser into the Pen, and still cheaper than the Pencil.  So I don't see the "complexity and cost" an issue here.  Second, during my meetings I have to use the eraser frequently.  Don't you think it's easier to flip the Pen and erase, than move my hand or stylus out of the writing area to choose the eraser and repeat every time I have to erase?  Physical pads were useful and were replaced in phones by something that gave more benefits.  Right now, the Pencil haven't done anything better than the eraser in the Pen.  As soon it does, I'll consider it since it will benefit my workflow.  Until then, the Pen is a better option for handwritten notes.
    You haven't actually proven anything. Notes are the easiest thing for any $2 stylus to do, even without an eraser.
    Soli
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