Apple to oppose 'Right to Repair' legislation in Nebraska, report says

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 82

    avon b7 said:
    macxpress said:

    cashxx said:
    I'm all for it!   No reason for Apple or others to make things so hard to tear apart!  Especially these days when everything is so thin.  Like an Air you should be able to take the bottom cover off and everything laid out and simply removed after a few screws from a single layer.  Same for iPhone.  Remove two screws, lift the screen, easily unplug, easily replace logic board, etc.   No reason for gluing batteries in place, etc.  If they can build it for beauty inside and out they can built it to be easily taken apart and repaired instead of the overly complicated ways they do now on purpose!

    There's likely very good reason any glued components are glued.  Phone get jostled, dropped, creating impacts that might shift internal components.  And that could create exactly the tolerance issues that Samsung cited as causing battery fires.  

    On top of that, I believe the gluing at least around the case is part of the water proofing. Thats another thing about going to Bob's iPhone repair. They may not be able to make it seal back up properly. What if you got this iPhone off eBay or something not knowing it was opened and not properly sealed back up? So you get it wet thinking its not big deal when in fact that water leaked inside it. I can see legal issues with this already. 
    You raise a valid point but as I touched on earlier, we should be moving away from 'disposable' electronic devices and designing for repairability.

    http://www.semblant.com/news/semblant-ceo-discuss-waterproof-nanocoatings-enable-repair-recycle-reuse-consumer-electronic-devices-5th-international-congress-green-process-engineering/

    Consumer electronics are designed for very specific use cases -- size being perhaps foremost. As more functionality is embedded or put into silicon I don't see a reasonable expectation for users to be repairing their consumer electronics. Are you soldering components onto your mainboard? No, and nobody can reasonably expect any owner to do so. It's a silly waste of our time to argue that it's something Apple should design for.
  • Reply 42 of 82
    Does the Right To Repair law include a stipulation for Right To Abuse?  The repairs alluded to are generally caused by negligence.  iPhones that require service that is a result of a manufacturing defect is covered by warranty, either standard or extended by Apple Care+.  Repairs that are required because of abuse, i.e. dropping or other physical occurrences, are not covered by warranty.  If you are the type of person that suffers "accidents" with things you own, then insurance that you pay for would be appropriate.  The insurance rates would be set by insurance companies that will make a profit from you.  This could lead to your learning to handle things properly and carefully.  Accidents will still happen but how you pay for them would be up to you.  No one else should have to cover your loss.  No one should have to design in coverage for the possibility that you will find new creative ways to damage something.  You should have the responsibility to determine if an object meet your needs, what ever those needs, and will withstand the use or abuse you will give it.
  • Reply 43 of 82
    I'm a Nebraskan, and I wholeheartedly support this legislation.

    A bit of background that is ignored by the article though.

    Yes, the proposed legislation would force Apple and others to open up to consumers and repair shops, but that was not where this began. Nebraska is one of the largest agriculture states in the nation. This legislation started with farmers. When Farmer Bob goes out and buys a new $300,000 combine to harvest the corn which ends up in your breakfast cereal, he can't repair the tractor on his own. He's forced to work through a dealer even for minor items because everything is tightly locked down both electronically and parts. The tractor's computer throws an error code? Farmer Bob has to pay a hefty diagnostic fee to the dealer just to find out it needs one little part. Then, he has to pay the dealer to come out to his farm and replace that one little part. 

    Imagine if every time a little light popped up on your car's dash board, you had to take it to an authorized dealer and ONLY an authorized dealer, pay a hefty diagnostic fee, and then can ONLY have it serviced there and you walk away $500 poorer, when all it needed was a $25 oxygen sensor and 20 minutes under the hood.

    Would this legislation also affect phones, computers, etc.? Yes, it would. Fine. Awesome. Let me fix my own stuff! I'm competent. If I screw it up and burn down my house, that's on me, not Apple. If I'm not comfortable doing the work myself and I take it to Sam's Phone Fix-It and he screws it up, fine. He'll be hearing from my lawyer or my insurance company and they can sort it out.
  • Reply 44 of 82
    Why not just let consumers decide? Some have asked whether we'd support a car that can only be repaired by the manufacturer; I don't see the issue if this is what the manufacturer wants. Although an extreme example, not only could the Mercedes Benz SLR be serviced only by MB, but there were only a handful of garages in the country that could do it. They'd ship client cars over. I'll bet that the Tesla can only be serviced by them.

    In the end, as long as it's disclosed, let the consumer decide if they demand the flexibility. You know you'll pay more but you also know that whoever did the repair will be fully accountable for it (or should be). If you demand a right to repair anywhere, then buy something else. Why do we need regulations to babysit those who can't make their own decisions?
  • Reply 45 of 82
    I must be missing something here because you can find any part you need to fix an iPhone on Ebay for cheap. iFixIt has tutorials for most of it.

    Nothing is stopping you from fixing your phone (or having someone else do it) right now!

    As for the modern car? I have a Porsche that has it's own coding tools et al, but I just bought a code reader and software off of Ebay for $35. So nothing is stopping me from recoding things as I see fit.

    Why does there need to be a law for this?
  • Reply 46 of 82
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 4,061member
    macxpress said:
    avon b7 said:
    macxpress said:

    cashxx said:
    I'm all for it!   No reason for Apple or others to make things so hard to tear apart!  Especially these days when everything is so thin.  Like an Air you should be able to take the bottom cover off and everything laid out and simply removed after a few screws from a single layer.  Same for iPhone.  Remove two screws, lift the screen, easily unplug, easily replace logic board, etc.   No reason for gluing batteries in place, etc.  If they can build it for beauty inside and out they can built it to be easily taken apart and repaired instead of the overly complicated ways they do now on purpose!

    There's likely very good reason any glued components are glued.  Phone get jostled, dropped, creating impacts that might shift internal components.  And that could create exactly the tolerance issues that Samsung cited as causing battery fires.  

    On top of that, I believe the gluing at least around the case is part of the water proofing. Thats another thing about going to Bob's iPhone repair. They may not be able to make it seal back up properly. What if you got this iPhone off eBay or something not knowing it was opened and not properly sealed back up? So you get it wet thinking its not big deal when in fact that water leaked inside it. I can see legal issues with this already. 
    You raise a valid point but as I touched on earlier, we should be moving away from 'disposable' electronic devices and designing for repairability.

    http://www.semblant.com/news/semblant-ceo-discuss-waterproof-nanocoatings-enable-repair-recycle-reuse-consumer-electronic-devices-5th-international-congress-green-process-engineering/

    I think its BS that Apple should have to spend extra time trying to figure out how to make their products repairable by 3rd parties. Why should Apple be made to spend Millions more in R&D/Engineering just so Bob's iPhone repair can fix something? Apple has never done this with the Mac so why all of sudden is this an issue? Like I said, its people who are careless and don't buy warranties (which is Apple's solution to getting it fixed cheap) who are complaining. Not everything you buy should be repairable. 
    Apple always depended on third parties for repair of Macs, and to a very large degree, still does. Before Apple had a retail presence of its own, it was the only way to get one repaired. Apple provides the tools, service manuals, parts etc. These third parties do not void the warranty and are fully compatible with Apple's repair policies.

    It is intrinsically wrong to need AppleCare for protection against failure. AppleCare should be a competitive option to purchasers. The customer should have the choice. Either way, Apple has already been found guilty of misrepresenting AppleCare on iPhones and AppleCare on Macs has lost value over the years. In the past, you could include Time Capsules, Airport Extremes and Monitors under one policy (if purchased at the time you bought the covered Mac). Apple is leaving the monitor business and is likely ending the router options. In situ repair has also been scaled back over the years and with the new MBPs I've heard about many that can't even be repaired at Apple Retail Stores. They have to be shipped out to a specialist facility.

    If Apple can revamp it's retail stores at enormous cost, they can definitely establish (or improve) new avenues for certified third party repair.

    Apple will not change its roadmap towards disposable devices but legislation could leave them with no option. It depends on how far reaching that legislation could be.

    Not long ago the internal combustion engine was untouchable. Diesel was heavily promoted. Now we are seeing certain vehicles banned from circulating in some cities. Pretty much unthinkable not too long ago but reality now thanks to legislation.
  • Reply 47 of 82
    mnbob1mnbob1 Posts: 263member
    I have always purchased AppleCare+ for my Apple products especially my iPhones and iPods. I can walk into an Apple Store when I have a problem and walk out with a replacement in a very short time. Those is areas that don't have Apple Stores nearby can call Apple Care and have a replacement on the way immediately and get it as soon as the next business day if they choose to. I have needed to use this service on my last three iPhones and twice on the last two. A very good investment. 

    I would never ever use a 3rd party repair and I see plenty of people using the kiosks at the malls for screen and battery replacement. Not for me!
  • Reply 48 of 82
    adm1 said:
    Right to Repair makes sense for something like automobiles so people can have their vehicle serviced/repaired anywhere they want.

    It doesn't make sense for something like an iPhone, which is an intricate piece of electronic hardware.
    Maybe 10-20 years ago, today cars are so technologically advanced, most garages don't have the neccesary equipment to work on modern bmw's or mercs for example. You have to go to a bmw dealer or merc dealer who have the proper diagnostics or coding ability. in fact, it's exactly like automobiles - my old 2004 Merc A-Class came with a lifetime warranty on the engine and corrosion guarantee etc. This was voided if I ever took it to a non-mercedes garage for servicing or testing. Just like having an iPhone repaired at a non-apple authorised store, the warranty will be voided regardless of the quality of repair.

    Not true. While cars are indeed more complex, the majority of repairs done to them are still of the mechanical kind (wear & tear). This is why there's a very healthy aftermarket industry providing OEM quality parts for vehicles. Even Mercedes vehicles have a wide range of aftermarket parts available, including electrical components. 

    And even though the electronics are complex, you can get wiring diagrams for pretty much any car with the exception of exotics. And there are lots of aftermarket "scanners" available to talk to vehiclesto aid in diagnosis.
  • Reply 49 of 82
    jbdragonjbdragon Posts: 2,149member
    Right to Repair makes sense for something like automobiles so people can have their vehicle serviced/repaired anywhere they want.

    It doesn't make sense for something like an iPhone, which is an intricate piece of electronic hardware.
    Why not? I see no difference. In fact this last weekend I replaced the TouchID button on a iPhone 5S for someone at work. Of course the TouchID part of it doesn't work anymore because of Apple's security, but the button works for everything else now. A few basic tools and a new button from Amazon and it got fixed. Less then $10 for the part.
  • Reply 50 of 82
    ibillibill Posts: 392member
    cashxx said:
    I'm all for it!   No reason for Apple or others to make things so hard to tear apart!  Especially these days when everything is so thin.  Like an Air you should be able to take the bottom cover off and everything laid out and simply removed after a few screws from a single layer.  Same for iPhone.  Remove two screws, lift the screen, easily unplug, easily replace logic board, etc.   No reason for gluing batteries in place, etc.  If they can build it for beauty inside and out they can built it to be easily taken apart and repaired instead of the overly complicated ways they do now on purpose!
    You forgot the /s at the end of your post.
  • Reply 51 of 82
    paxmanpaxman Posts: 4,608member
    I must be missing something here because you can find any part you need to fix an iPhone on Ebay for cheap. iFixIt has tutorials for most of it.

    Nothing is stopping you from fixing your phone (or having someone else do it) right now!

    As for the modern car? I have a Porsche that has it's own coding tools et al, but I just bought a code reader and software off of Ebay for $35. So nothing is stopping me from recoding things as I see fit.

    Why does there need to be a law for this?
    I agree with you - it is all doable now and people do it. There are a thousand small shops that can repair much of common damage on iPhones and all sorts of other glued and sealed or otherwise difficult to get at products. But companies actively work to limit user repairability. It is not just about iPhones, but toasters and vacuum cleaners etc, too. A law requiring companies to go out of their way too make products user repairable is required because repairing 'stuff' is unnecessarily difficult. I don't think it is a technical issue as much as a philosophical one and for that reason 'business' is unfit to make it.
  • Reply 52 of 82
    paxman said:
    I must be missing something here because you can find any part you need to fix an iPhone on Ebay for cheap. iFixIt has tutorials for most of it.

    Nothing is stopping you from fixing your phone (or having someone else do it) right now!

    As for the modern car? I have a Porsche that has it's own coding tools et al, but I just bought a code reader and software off of Ebay for $35. So nothing is stopping me from recoding things as I see fit.

    Why does there need to be a law for this?
    I agree with you - it is all doable now and people do it. There are a thousand small shops that can repair much of common damage on iPhones and all sorts of other glued and sealed or otherwise difficult to get at products. But companies actively work to limit user repairability. It is not just about iPhones, but toasters and vacuum cleaners etc, too. A law requiring companies to go out of their way too make products user repairable is required because repairing 'stuff' is unnecessarily difficult. I don't think it is a technical issue as much as a philosophical one and for that reason 'business' is unfit to make it.
    Why don't you instead go and buy products that are easy to repair yourself instead of requiring the government to make a law to FORCE companies to make their products repairable. Use the Free Market and vote with your wallet. You nanny state dems are so unbelievable leaning on government force, which is immoral, instead of just supporting other companies or creating a product yourself. If you don't like what a certain manufacture has to offer THEN DON'T BUY IT. Apple isn't holding a gun to your head to buy their products, but you're perfectly willing to hold a gun to theirs (literally) to force them to comply with your ideology? This is capatilism, not facism. 
    Rayz2016
  • Reply 53 of 82
    adm1 said:
    Right to Repair makes sense for something like automobiles so people can have their vehicle serviced/repaired anywhere they want.

    It doesn't make sense for something like an iPhone, which is an intricate piece of electronic hardware.
    Maybe 10-20 years ago, today cars are so technologically advanced, most garages don't have the neccesary equipment to work on modern bmw's or mercs for example. You have to go to a bmw dealer or merc dealer who have the proper diagnostics or coding ability. in fact, it's exactly like automobiles - my old 2004 Merc A-Class came with a lifetime warranty on the engine and corrosion guarantee etc. This was voided if I ever took it to a non-mercedes garage for servicing or testing. Just like having an iPhone repaired at a non-apple authorised store, the warranty will be voided regardless of the quality of repair.
    That's not true. BMW's or Mercedes aren't any more technologically advanced than a Kia. You can go to any repair shop that has the proper diagnostic tools. Those are easily purchased online. You can buy an official one from BMW for under $400. 
  • Reply 54 of 82
    foggyhillfoggyhill Posts: 4,767member
    paxman said:
    I must be missing something here because you can find any part you need to fix an iPhone on Ebay for cheap. iFixIt has tutorials for most of it.

    Nothing is stopping you from fixing your phone (or having someone else do it) right now!

    As for the modern car? I have a Porsche that has it's own coding tools et al, but I just bought a code reader and software off of Ebay for $35. So nothing is stopping me from recoding things as I see fit.

    Why does there need to be a law for this?
    I agree with you - it is all doable now and people do it. There are a thousand small shops that can repair much of common damage on iPhones and all sorts of other glued and sealed or otherwise difficult to get at products. But companies actively work to limit user repairability. It is not just about iPhones, but toasters and vacuum cleaners etc, too. A law requiring companies to go out of their way too make products user repairable is required because repairing 'stuff' is unnecessarily difficult. I don't think it is a technical issue as much as a philosophical one and for that reason 'business' is unfit to make it.
    Why don't you instead go and buy products that are easy to repair yourself instead of requiring the government to make a law to FORCE companies to make their products repairable. Use the Free Market and vote with your wallet. You nanny state dems are so unbelievable leaning on government force, which is immoral, instead of just supporting other companies or creating a product yourself. If you don't like what a certain manufacture has to offer THEN DON'T BUY IT. Apple isn't holding a gun to your head to buy their products, but you're perfectly willing to hold a gun to theirs (literally) to force them to comply with your ideology? This is capatilism, not facism. 
    Hey, buddy. keep your politics and straw man arguments downs, it has nothing to do with "dems" (the right to repair thing is not in the platform )

    Your fracking senseless rant is absurd considering your sacks of putrid shits that's about to completely gut the EPA created by... Nixon (new law in congress) while at the same time making laws forcing woman to carry rapists children (in Arkansas).

    So please frac off before I really blow your self serving inanity about "nanny state" (sic) sky high.

    edited February 2017
  • Reply 55 of 82
    tshapitshapi Posts: 294member
    I do not agree with a right to repair bill. Apple certifies third party retailers that pass there stringent certifications for repair. Since Apple has what I would call high standards.  


  • Reply 56 of 82
    dysamoriadysamoria Posts: 2,266member
    normm said:
    hike1272 said:
    I have and use Apple products.  I have bought-into the Apple Eco System.  I like the freedom and options of being able to shop for my repair center.  I believe in the owner's Right to Repair.  I am inclined to take my device back to Apple for a repair but I want it to be my choice.  I am displeased with Apple's position.  IMHO, Timmy's Apple is a far cry from Steve Jobs' Apple.  While neither iteration was perfect, Timmy's is lame.
    At some point hardly anything in an iPhone will be repairable.  It will just be too compact and monolithic, with ridiculous tolerances and seals.  Even Apple stores won't be able to repair them.


    How will they recycle them then? This is horribly unsustainable business and materials usage.

    Apple is in the wrong here. All their "green" PR means nothing when their devices are disposable and obsoleted within a few years.

    Manufacturers should be required to take back all manufactured goods at end of life to reuse the materials and leave proper disposal as a responsibility of the maker of the product, not the consumers or local government waste systems.
  • Reply 57 of 82
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 4,061member
    dysamoria said:
    normm said:
    hike1272 said:
    I have and use Apple products.  I have bought-into the Apple Eco System.  I like the freedom and options of being able to shop for my repair center.  I believe in the owner's Right to Repair.  I am inclined to take my device back to Apple for a repair but I want it to be my choice.  I am displeased with Apple's position.  IMHO, Timmy's Apple is a far cry from Steve Jobs' Apple.  While neither iteration was perfect, Timmy's is lame.
    At some point hardly anything in an iPhone will be repairable.  It will just be too compact and monolithic, with ridiculous tolerances and seals.  Even Apple stores won't be able to repair them.


    How will they recycle them then? This is horribly unsustainable business and materials usage.

    Apple is in the wrong here. All their "green" PR means nothing when their devices are disposable and obsoleted within a few years.

    Manufacturers should be required to take back all manufactured goods at end of life to reuse the materials and leave proper disposal as a responsibility of the maker of the product, not the consumers or local government waste systems.
    In the EU the WEEE directive covers these aspects. The cost of re-cycling or safe disposal is included in the price of electronic goods and vendors of such devices cannot refuse to take in old equipment. Government also provides drop off points for such products to be received (no charges involved). In the case of mobile phones, most manufacturers and many retailers will actually pay you or give you discounts if you hand them over. Apple has a robot (or a few of them) that can dismantle its phones. There is a lot that can be reused or recycled but the reason so much effort is put into getting phones back is the rare earth contents in them.

    Sending electronic equipment to landfill can actually get you fined.

    Another directive RoHS controls the contaminants that can go into electronic and electrical devices.

    In the US I don't know how strict the legislation is.

    Either way I agree with your sentiment.
    edited February 2017
  • Reply 58 of 82
    paxmanpaxman Posts: 4,608member
    paxman said:
    I must be missing something here because you can find any part you need to fix an iPhone on Ebay for cheap. iFixIt has tutorials for most of it.

    Nothing is stopping you from fixing your phone (or having someone else do it) right now!

    As for the modern car? I have a Porsche that has it's own coding tools et al, but I just bought a code reader and software off of Ebay for $35. So nothing is stopping me from recoding things as I see fit.

    Why does there need to be a law for this?
    I agree with you - it is all doable now and people do it. There are a thousand small shops that can repair much of common damage on iPhones and all sorts of other glued and sealed or otherwise difficult to get at products. But companies actively work to limit user repairability. It is not just about iPhones, but toasters and vacuum cleaners etc, too. A law requiring companies to go out of their way too make products user repairable is required because repairing 'stuff' is unnecessarily difficult. I don't think it is a technical issue as much as a philosophical one and for that reason 'business' is unfit to make it.
    Why don't you instead go and buy products that are easy to repair yourself instead of requiring the government to make a law to FORCE companies to make their products repairable. Use the Free Market and vote with your wallet. You nanny state dems are so unbelievable leaning on government force, which is immoral, instead of just supporting other companies or creating a product yourself. If you don't like what a certain manufacture has to offer THEN DON'T BUY IT. Apple isn't holding a gun to your head to buy their products, but you're perfectly willing to hold a gun to theirs (literally) to force them to comply with your ideology? This is capatilism, not facism. 
    Because that is what government does, and should do. The free market is not a regulatory body. You may not like what your government is doing but that is another question. I am not against capitalism or the free market but only a fool will entrust the market to make decisions on our behalf about the kind of world we want to live in. If your government, which is an extension of the people, decide that it makes social, ecological, moral and economic sense to legislate, then business will just have to follow and work with it. The idea that business alone should rule our lives makes little sense.  
  • Reply 59 of 82
    volcanvolcan Posts: 1,789member
    dysamoria said:

    Manufacturers should be required to take back all manufactured goods at end of life to reuse the materials and leave proper disposal as a responsibility of the maker of the product, not the consumers or local government waste systems.
    I think it should be a responsibility of the end consumer to properly dispose of or recycle their old products.

    Just think about it for a second. If I had an empty bottle of beer, how would I get it back to the brewery? Would I ship it COD to them?

    You might say take it back to the local retailer, but how would they know I bought the beer from them?

    Many products have no manufacturer mark on them such as building materials which many years after purchase need to be disposed of. How do you do that?

    Simple solution, just send all left over recyclables to the same facility, all at the same time, instead one at a time to different locations. The facility will sort it out and sell it.  
    That is how we do it in California. The recyclables are picked up at the curb every week. In fact in many California cities they even sort through your regular trash looking for recyclables because they don't trust the consumers to do the right thing. City trash collection contracts come with the stipulation that the hauler must reduce land fill volume to be awarded the contract. We also have pharmaceuticals and hazardous waste recycling, but for those you have to take it to the facility yourself. We also have private companies that will come to your location to take unused electronics. They grind them up and sort out the various materials into bins and then sell it.

    Some low income people even collect recyclables and resell them to a facility.
    edited February 2017
  • Reply 60 of 82
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 4,061member
    paxman said:
    I must be missing something here because you can find any part you need to fix an iPhone on Ebay for cheap. iFixIt has tutorials for most of it.

    Nothing is stopping you from fixing your phone (or having someone else do it) right now!

    As for the modern car? I have a Porsche that has it's own coding tools et al, but I just bought a code reader and software off of Ebay for $35. So nothing is stopping me from recoding things as I see fit.

    Why does there need to be a law for this?
    I agree with you - it is all doable now and people do it. There are a thousand small shops that can repair much of common damage on iPhones and all sorts of other glued and sealed or otherwise difficult to get at products. But companies actively work to limit user repairability. It is not just about iPhones, but toasters and vacuum cleaners etc, too. A law requiring companies to go out of their way too make products user repairable is required because repairing 'stuff' is unnecessarily difficult. I don't think it is a technical issue as much as a philosophical one and for that reason 'business' is unfit to make it.
    Why don't you instead go and buy products that are easy to repair yourself instead of requiring the government to make a law to FORCE companies to make their products repairable. Use the Free Market and vote with your wallet. You nanny state dems are so unbelievable leaning on government force, which is immoral, instead of just supporting other companies or creating a product yourself. If you don't like what a certain manufacture has to offer THEN DON'T BUY IT. Apple isn't holding a gun to your head to buy their products, but you're perfectly willing to hold a gun to theirs (literally) to force them to comply with your ideology? This is capatilism, not facism. 
    It is not a free market.

    If it were everybody would suffer.

    There is consumer legislation to protect your rights as a consumer.

    There are health regulations to protect your health.

    There is environmental legislation to control what goes into products and their impact on the environment together with how those products are disposed of.

    If it were not for legislation you would have lead everywhere and would not remember what you ate for breakfast. You would also probably have a 60 day unenforceable warranty.

    Legislation does not force Apple. If forces industry (and consumers).
    edited February 2017
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