Apple's latest iPad Pro ads focus on notetaking, decluttering desks

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 39
    teonycteonyc Posts: 21member
    "the videos are only 15 seconds long, and meant for social media rather than TV.”

    Sorry, that’s just not true. Most TV ads are :15s today. They are a much more efficient buy for the kind of reach Apple requires. They are not optimized for social which needs to do the heavy lifting in the first 3-5 seconds of the video, and without sound.

  • Reply 22 of 39
    larryjwlarryjw Posts: 1,031member
    From how few comments there, it looks like people aren't that excited or impressed with with Apple Pensil or the IPad Pro.

    I own the IPad Pro 9.7 and pencil and while I think there is a niche for it, it's not a "killer app" that's going to suddenly drive IPad sales.  The problem is, at the price point they're trying to sell it at, an Apple laptop would be more effective for 99% of the potential buyers.

    Personally, I can type 2x (+) over my writing (pen) speed.  So, while an IPad pencil might be great for artists and people taking notes in a college lecture hall, everywhere else it's terribly inefficient.

    Apple needs to give up on their post-pc vision for everything and give people what they want, a $800 laptop bult with Apple quality perhaps running an Ax chip with built in 4G/5G wireless running either an expanded OS X (with a proper file system, etc) or a hardened MacOS with all apps coming from the App Store (for security) and sand boxing anything needing custom programming (I.e. for a C++ class college classes).

    Nothing can beat the flexibility of a PC...

    I'll continue to be an IPad buyer, and the IPhone is a great product, but the two products aren't the answer for everything.  I'm not going to spend $1500 to get a decent laptop, when a serviceable $500 Windows PC will get the job done.  If Apple made an $800 laptop I'd never touch Windows again.
    The Apple Pencil is a key technology. Not only for artists, but you almost got it right when you mentioned students taking notes in a college lecture. Writing by hand, not typing, is known to improve learning and recall. You don't have to be taking classes for that. The limitation is that most apps to not accept the Apple Pencil for input. In particular, readers, like iBooks and Kindle do not allow taking notes and adding comments using the Apple Pencil -- a significant limitation. I don't know that would be required, but perhaps, Apple needs to create an iOS API that every app can use to allow notes to be taken.
  • Reply 23 of 39
    sphericspheric Posts: 2,529member
    I knew I needed one the second I tried it. Being able to properly draw notation directly onto my song sheets in decent resolution, and write up sheets directly, is a HUGE benefit.

    My iPad Air 2 is written off this fiscal year, so a replacement is feasible. 
    pscooter63cornchip
  • Reply 24 of 39
    aricbaricb Posts: 27member
    I'd like to use the iPad pro as a book reader, but when electronic versions cost $150 and the paperback version is around $15, there's not much choice. Clutter stays.
    GeorgeBMaccornchip
  • Reply 25 of 39
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,387member
    foggyhill said:
    wolfboy said:
    From how few comments there, it looks like people aren't that excited or impressed with with Apple Pensil or the IPad Pro.

    I own the IPad Pro 9.7 and pencil and while I think there is a niche for it, it's not a "killer app" that's going to suddenly drive IPad sales.  The problem is, at the price point they're trying to sell it at, an Apple laptop would be more effective for 99% of the potential buyers.

    Personally, I can type 2x (+) over my writing (pen) speed.  So, while an IPad pencil might be great for artists and people taking notes in a college lecture hall, everywhere else it's terribly inefficient.

    Apple needs to give up on their post-pc vision for everything and give people what they want, a $800 laptop bult with Apple quality perhaps running an Ax chip with built in 4G/5G wireless running either an expanded OS X (with a proper file system, etc) or a hardened MacOS with all apps coming from the App Store (for security) and sand boxing anything needing custom programming (I.e. for a C++ class college classes).

    Nothing can beat the flexibility of a PC...

    I'll continue to be an IPad buyer, and the IPhone is a great product, but the two products aren't the answer for everything.  I'm not going to spend $1500 to get a decent laptop, when a serviceable $500 Windows PC will get the job done.  If Apple made an $800 laptop I'd never touch Windows again.

    Ah, another "Apple needs to..." post which really means "I want this..." Just buy a notebook. And no, Apple won't ever make $500 netbooks.
    The snark is unnecessary. Seanismorris makes a good point (minus the netbook comment). Although Apple does make an $800 laptop - the Macbook Air 13 (often on sale at Best Buy for that much or even less $750 at times). I left Windows with the trainwreck that was Vista and haven't looked back - UNTIL the Surface Pro came out.  IMO, it's the perfect device - software aside. If it wasn't for Windows 10 data mining I would have already jumped.  I am really curious to see what Samsung is doing with the newly unveiled Galaxy Book line.  I'd pay iPad Pro 12.9 premium (ESPECIALLY with LTE) is it was a full OS. Hell, even make two versions of the Pro (iOS and full OS) 
    Huh! Perfect device except for the software!!! What! The tight integration of SW - HW is the whole point of Apple.
    And I've used it, it is in NO WAY, a perfect device at all !! Man.
    Does Apple have the perfect device?  Don't think so.  Every device, smartphone, tablet, notebook, PC, 2-in-1, excel at some things and fail at others.  Many Mac users have iPads, since the Mac won't do all the things they need, and vice versa.  2-in-1 / SP4 have compromises too, but there are many people that benefits from the way they work. 

    I have a SP4, and I know is not the perfect device.  But it does more than an iPad or a Mac, even though is not the best tablet or the best notebook.  Right now I miss some features from my iPad and MBA, but at the same time I see some advantages over my Apple devices.  Like I posted before, customer satisfaction of the SP4 may prove MS is doing something right, even though still not the perfect device.

    http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsofts-surface-apples-ipad-in-customer-satisfaction-dead-heat/
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 26 of 39
    Procreate is the only real killer app I've found for the iPad Pro that doesn't feel like a reduced version of a program that would be much better on a MacBook. Notes is just ok. What I would like to see is a companion app for Apple's Motion and Keynote programs. An app that would allow me to draw the items that I would like to animate and then effortlessly continue with the animation (in an editable format not a Quicktime) in those respective programs. In terms of hardware Apple has done a very good job as the iPad Pros are screaming fast but there is clearly a lack of strategy what exactly makes these iPad Pro. It should at the very least complement Apple's Pro apps Final Cut, Motion, and Logic for example instead we get an iMovie like app.
    edited March 2017
  • Reply 27 of 39
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,786member
    wolfboy said:
    From how few comments there, it looks like people aren't that excited or impressed with with Apple Pensil or the IPad Pro.

    I own the IPad Pro 9.7 and pencil and while I think there is a niche for it, it's not a "killer app" that's going to suddenly drive IPad sales.  The problem is, at the price point they're trying to sell it at, an Apple laptop would be more effective for 99% of the potential buyers.

    Personally, I can type 2x (+) over my writing (pen) speed.  So, while an IPad pencil might be great for artists and people taking notes in a college lecture hall, everywhere else it's terribly inefficient.

    Apple needs to give up on their post-pc vision for everything and give people what they want, a $800 laptop bult with Apple quality perhaps running an Ax chip with built in 4G/5G wireless running either an expanded OS X (with a proper file system, etc) or a hardened MacOS with all apps coming from the App Store (for security) and sand boxing anything needing custom programming (I.e. for a C++ class college classes).

    Nothing can beat the flexibility of a PC...

    I'll continue to be an IPad buyer, and the IPhone is a great product, but the two products aren't the answer for everything.  I'm not going to spend $1500 to get a decent laptop, when a serviceable $500 Windows PC will get the job done.  If Apple made an $800 laptop I'd never touch Windows again.

    Ah, another "Apple needs to..." post which really means "I want this..." Just buy a notebook. And no, Apple won't ever make $500 netbooks.
    The snark is unnecessary. Seanismorris makes a good point (minus the netbook comment). Although Apple does make an $800 laptop - the Macbook Air 13 (often on sale at Best Buy for that much or even less $750 at times). I left Windows with the trainwreck that was Vista and haven't looked back - UNTIL the Surface Pro came out.  IMO, it's the perfect device - software aside. If it wasn't for Windows 10 data mining I would have already jumped.  I am really curious to see what Samsung is doing with the newly unveiled Galaxy Book line.  I'd pay iPad Pro 12.9 premium (ESPECIALLY with LTE) is it was a full OS. Hell, even make two versions of the Pro (iOS and full OS) 
    It's not snark -- it's fact. You're apparently new but people often post the "Apple needs to..." trope, which really and actually only means "I want them to..."

    As for the surface pro, it's perfect except the software? the main thing you interface with? Yeah not following that one, macOS is part of what makes Macs so much more compelling then PCs. If you're still saddled with a crummy OS like Windows, then i don't see perfection at all. 
    brucemccornchip
  • Reply 28 of 39
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,786member
    From how few comments there, it looks like people aren't that excited or impressed with with Apple Pensil or the IPad Pro.

    I own the IPad Pro 9.7 and pencil and while I think there is a niche for it, it's not a "killer app" that's going to suddenly drive IPad sales.  The problem is, at the price point they're trying to sell it at, an Apple laptop would be more effective for 99% of the potential buyers.

    Personally, I can type 2x (+) over my writing (pen) speed.  So, while an IPad pencil might be great for artists and people taking notes in a college lecture hall, everywhere else it's terribly inefficient.

    Apple needs to give up on their post-pc vision for everything and give people what they want, a $800 laptop bult with Apple quality perhaps running an Ax chip with built in 4G/5G wireless running either an expanded OS X (with a proper file system, etc) or a hardened MacOS with all apps coming from the App Store (for security) and sand boxing anything needing custom programming (I.e. for a C++ class college classes).

    Nothing can beat the flexibility of a PC...

    I'll continue to be an IPad buyer, and the IPhone is a great product, but the two products aren't the answer for everything.  I'm not going to spend $1500 to get a decent laptop, when a serviceable $500 Windows PC will get the job done.  If Apple made an $800 laptop I'd never touch Windows again.
    The laptop format is great for some things.  The tablet format is great for other things.

    Rather than build a cheap laptop, they should simply install a touchpad in the IPad Pro's keyboard -- and then you have the best of both worlds.

    But I certainly agree with your point that it is hard to justify $1,500 for a laptop when a $500 Windows laptop meets your needs.  I suppose if you're a professional with a particular need for that $1,500 laptop it would be different.  But, most people don't buy a Porsche just to go to the grocery store.  A few do.   But not many.

    But, a $1,000 IPad that can function well in laptop mode when attached to its keyboard/trackpad would satisfy both the functional and the pricing requirement for most people.  
    You're completely overlooking TCO -- in my experience Windows notebooks are often a PITA. I've had family members ask me what to get, ignore it and get a cheap Windows machine, and call me frustrated and needing help with all the random ways Windows sucks, or failing/flaky hardware (thinking wifi adapter). Eventually ditching the machine and repeating the process. 

    You get what you pay for. 
    Most of the world disagrees with you...  
    You're right that Windows notebooks are not on par with Mac notebooks.   But then, neither is a Chevy on par with a Mercedes.  But, they'll get you to the grocery store.
    You're committing the logical fallacy known as "appeal to popularity" which has no place in this discussion:

     https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/40/Appeal-to-Popularity

    My point stands -- your $500 windows netbook argument overlooks TCO. While the up front cost is cheaper than a $1000 macbook air, it incurs additional support costs later. 
    edited March 2017 brucemc
  • Reply 29 of 39
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,786member
    foggyhill said:
    wolfboy said:
    From how few comments there, it looks like people aren't that excited or impressed with with Apple Pensil or the IPad Pro.

    I own the IPad Pro 9.7 and pencil and while I think there is a niche for it, it's not a "killer app" that's going to suddenly drive IPad sales.  The problem is, at the price point they're trying to sell it at, an Apple laptop would be more effective for 99% of the potential buyers.

    Personally, I can type 2x (+) over my writing (pen) speed.  So, while an IPad pencil might be great for artists and people taking notes in a college lecture hall, everywhere else it's terribly inefficient.

    Apple needs to give up on their post-pc vision for everything and give people what they want, a $800 laptop bult with Apple quality perhaps running an Ax chip with built in 4G/5G wireless running either an expanded OS X (with a proper file system, etc) or a hardened MacOS with all apps coming from the App Store (for security) and sand boxing anything needing custom programming (I.e. for a C++ class college classes).

    Nothing can beat the flexibility of a PC...

    I'll continue to be an IPad buyer, and the IPhone is a great product, but the two products aren't the answer for everything.  I'm not going to spend $1500 to get a decent laptop, when a serviceable $500 Windows PC will get the job done.  If Apple made an $800 laptop I'd never touch Windows again.

    Ah, another "Apple needs to..." post which really means "I want this..." Just buy a notebook. And no, Apple won't ever make $500 netbooks.
    The snark is unnecessary. Seanismorris makes a good point (minus the netbook comment). Although Apple does make an $800 laptop - the Macbook Air 13 (often on sale at Best Buy for that much or even less $750 at times). I left Windows with the trainwreck that was Vista and haven't looked back - UNTIL the Surface Pro came out.  IMO, it's the perfect device - software aside. If it wasn't for Windows 10 data mining I would have already jumped.  I am really curious to see what Samsung is doing with the newly unveiled Galaxy Book line.  I'd pay iPad Pro 12.9 premium (ESPECIALLY with LTE) is it was a full OS. Hell, even make two versions of the Pro (iOS and full OS) 
    Huh! Perfect device except for the software!!! What! The tight integration of SW - HW is the whole point of Apple.
    And I've used it, it is in NO WAY, a perfect device at all !! Man.
    He's right, it makes little sense to bill the IPad Pro as a pro but then give it toned down OS essentially meant for a phone.
    Huh? His comment was in reply to the claim that the surface pro is "perfect except for the software (OS)". iPad Pro was not a part of that point and counter point. 
    edited March 2017
  • Reply 30 of 39
    sphericspheric Posts: 2,529member
    markpratt said:
    Procreate is the only real killer app I've found for the iPad Pro that doesn't feel like a reduced version of a program that would be much better on a MacBook. Notes is just ok. What I would like to see is a companion app for Apple's Motion and Keynote programs. An app that would allow me to draw the items that I would like to animate and then effortlessly continue with the animation (in an editable format not a Quicktime) in those respective programs. In terms of hardware Apple has done a very good job as the iPad Pros are screaming fast but there is clearly a lack of strategy what exactly makes these iPad Pro. It should at the very least complement Apple's Pro apps Final Cut, Motion, and Logic for example instead we get an iMovie like app.
    That's hardly fair, at least from an audio standpoint.

    For one, you're missing Apple's own Logic Remote, and then there's a plethora of controllers, editors, synths and sequencers, integrated into the studio or live setup via Bluetooth, Wifi or hardware interfaces. 

    I think your post goes to show that what's a "killer app" is truly limited to your personal perspective — the fact that I have no idea how I'd have been able to perform my job for the past three years without an iPad is something that's naturally invisible to you because it's beyond your professional horizon. 

    This is also why it's so easy for so many to put off the iPad as an "iToy" - those of us who use it daily aren't bragging about it all the time, and there's no way for the detractors to assess what the hell we're actually doing with the things. :wink: 
    brucemccornchip
  • Reply 31 of 39
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    danvm said:
    foggyhill said:
    wolfboy said:
    From how few comments there, it looks like people aren't that excited or impressed with with Apple Pensil or the IPad Pro.

    I own the IPad Pro 9.7 and pencil and while I think there is a niche for it, it's not a "killer app" that's going to suddenly drive IPad sales.  The problem is, at the price point they're trying to sell it at, an Apple laptop would be more effective for 99% of the potential buyers.

    Personally, I can type 2x (+) over my writing (pen) speed.  So, while an IPad pencil might be great for artists and people taking notes in a college lecture hall, everywhere else it's terribly inefficient.

    Apple needs to give up on their post-pc vision for everything and give people what they want, a $800 laptop bult with Apple quality perhaps running an Ax chip with built in 4G/5G wireless running either an expanded OS X (with a proper file system, etc) or a hardened MacOS with all apps coming from the App Store (for security) and sand boxing anything needing custom programming (I.e. for a C++ class college classes).

    Nothing can beat the flexibility of a PC...

    I'll continue to be an IPad buyer, and the IPhone is a great product, but the two products aren't the answer for everything.  I'm not going to spend $1500 to get a decent laptop, when a serviceable $500 Windows PC will get the job done.  If Apple made an $800 laptop I'd never touch Windows again.

    Ah, another "Apple needs to..." post which really means "I want this..." Just buy a notebook. And no, Apple won't ever make $500 netbooks.
    The snark is unnecessary. Seanismorris makes a good point (minus the netbook comment). Although Apple does make an $800 laptop - the Macbook Air 13 (often on sale at Best Buy for that much or even less $750 at times). I left Windows with the trainwreck that was Vista and haven't looked back - UNTIL the Surface Pro came out.  IMO, it's the perfect device - software aside. If it wasn't for Windows 10 data mining I would have already jumped.  I am really curious to see what Samsung is doing with the newly unveiled Galaxy Book line.  I'd pay iPad Pro 12.9 premium (ESPECIALLY with LTE) is it was a full OS. Hell, even make two versions of the Pro (iOS and full OS) 
    Huh! Perfect device except for the software!!! What! The tight integration of SW - HW is the whole point of Apple.
    And I've used it, it is in NO WAY, a perfect device at all !! Man.
    Does Apple have the perfect device?  Don't think so.  Every device, smartphone, tablet, notebook, PC, 2-in-1, excel at some things and fail at others.  Many Mac users have iPads, since the Mac won't do all the things they need, and vice versa.  2-in-1 / SP4 have compromises too, but there are many people that benefits from the way they work. 

    I have a SP4, and I know is not the perfect device.  But it does more than an iPad or a Mac, even though is not the best tablet or the best notebook.  Right now I miss some features from my iPad and MBA, but at the same time I see some advantages over my Apple devices.  Like I posted before, customer satisfaction of the SP4 may prove MS is doing something right, even though still not the perfect device.

    http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsofts-surface-apples-ipad-in-customer-satisfaction-dead-heat/
    Good points...
    But I wonder if the limitations in your SP4 are in its execution rather than it's basic concept/design.   Apple excels at execution.   Steve Jobs baked that into the company -- it's all in the details.   Microsoft typically fails....
  • Reply 32 of 39
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    From how few comments there, it looks like people aren't that excited or impressed with with Apple Pensil or the IPad Pro.

    I own the IPad Pro 9.7 and pencil and while I think there is a niche for it, it's not a "killer app" that's going to suddenly drive IPad sales.  The problem is, at the price point they're trying to sell it at, an Apple laptop would be more effective for 99% of the potential buyers.

    Personally, I can type 2x (+) over my writing (pen) speed.  So, while an IPad pencil might be great for artists and people taking notes in a college lecture hall, everywhere else it's terribly inefficient.

    Apple needs to give up on their post-pc vision for everything and give people what they want, a $800 laptop bult with Apple quality perhaps running an Ax chip with built in 4G/5G wireless running either an expanded OS X (with a proper file system, etc) or a hardened MacOS with all apps coming from the App Store (for security) and sand boxing anything needing custom programming (I.e. for a C++ class college classes).

    Nothing can beat the flexibility of a PC...

    I'll continue to be an IPad buyer, and the IPhone is a great product, but the two products aren't the answer for everything.  I'm not going to spend $1500 to get a decent laptop, when a serviceable $500 Windows PC will get the job done.  If Apple made an $800 laptop I'd never touch Windows again.
    The laptop format is great for some things.  The tablet format is great for other things.

    Rather than build a cheap laptop, they should simply install a touchpad in the IPad Pro's keyboard -- and then you have the best of both worlds.

    But I certainly agree with your point that it is hard to justify $1,500 for a laptop when a $500 Windows laptop meets your needs.  I suppose if you're a professional with a particular need for that $1,500 laptop it would be different.  But, most people don't buy a Porsche just to go to the grocery store.  A few do.   But not many.

    But, a $1,000 IPad that can function well in laptop mode when attached to its keyboard/trackpad would satisfy both the functional and the pricing requirement for most people.  
    You're completely overlooking TCO -- in my experience Windows notebooks are often a PITA. I've had family members ask me what to get, ignore it and get a cheap Windows machine, and call me frustrated and needing help with all the random ways Windows sucks, or failing/flaky hardware (thinking wifi adapter). Eventually ditching the machine and repeating the process. 

    You get what you pay for. 
    Most of the world disagrees with you...  
    You're right that Windows notebooks are not on par with Mac notebooks.   But then, neither is a Chevy on par with a Mercedes.  But, they'll get you to the grocery store.
    You're committing the logical fallacy known as "appeal to popularity" which has no place in this discussion:

     https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/40/Appeal-to-Popularity

    My point stands -- your $500 windows netbook argument overlooks TCO. While the up front cost is cheaper than a $1000 macbook air, it incurs additional support costs later. 
    LOL... So you are the mediator who determines what is allowed to be discussed here?   That's funny.    Especially in light of your fallacious logic.

    As a side note about initial cost and longevity:   I'm typing this on a 5 year old Windows laptop where the only maintenance has been expanded memory and an updated OS -- it meets all of my needs supremely well.   Conversely, my 2 year old IPhone and my 4 month old Apple Watch have both been in for repairs in the past 2 weeks.   That's not to trash Apple -- they make good products and back them up.  Rather, it is to point out the ideologically biased fallacy of your argument.

    Fortunately, Apple management knows better than to let themselves get painted into the corner you are trying to put them in.
  • Reply 33 of 39
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,786member
    From how few comments there, it looks like people aren't that excited or impressed with with Apple Pensil or the IPad Pro.

    I own the IPad Pro 9.7 and pencil and while I think there is a niche for it, it's not a "killer app" that's going to suddenly drive IPad sales.  The problem is, at the price point they're trying to sell it at, an Apple laptop would be more effective for 99% of the potential buyers.

    Personally, I can type 2x (+) over my writing (pen) speed.  So, while an IPad pencil might be great for artists and people taking notes in a college lecture hall, everywhere else it's terribly inefficient.

    Apple needs to give up on their post-pc vision for everything and give people what they want, a $800 laptop bult with Apple quality perhaps running an Ax chip with built in 4G/5G wireless running either an expanded OS X (with a proper file system, etc) or a hardened MacOS with all apps coming from the App Store (for security) and sand boxing anything needing custom programming (I.e. for a C++ class college classes).

    Nothing can beat the flexibility of a PC...

    I'll continue to be an IPad buyer, and the IPhone is a great product, but the two products aren't the answer for everything.  I'm not going to spend $1500 to get a decent laptop, when a serviceable $500 Windows PC will get the job done.  If Apple made an $800 laptop I'd never touch Windows again.
    The laptop format is great for some things.  The tablet format is great for other things.

    Rather than build a cheap laptop, they should simply install a touchpad in the IPad Pro's keyboard -- and then you have the best of both worlds.

    But I certainly agree with your point that it is hard to justify $1,500 for a laptop when a $500 Windows laptop meets your needs.  I suppose if you're a professional with a particular need for that $1,500 laptop it would be different.  But, most people don't buy a Porsche just to go to the grocery store.  A few do.   But not many.

    But, a $1,000 IPad that can function well in laptop mode when attached to its keyboard/trackpad would satisfy both the functional and the pricing requirement for most people.  
    You're completely overlooking TCO -- in my experience Windows notebooks are often a PITA. I've had family members ask me what to get, ignore it and get a cheap Windows machine, and call me frustrated and needing help with all the random ways Windows sucks, or failing/flaky hardware (thinking wifi adapter). Eventually ditching the machine and repeating the process. 

    You get what you pay for. 
    Most of the world disagrees with you...  
    You're right that Windows notebooks are not on par with Mac notebooks.   But then, neither is a Chevy on par with a Mercedes.  But, they'll get you to the grocery store.
    You're committing the logical fallacy known as "appeal to popularity" which has no place in this discussion:

     https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/40/Appeal-to-Popularity

    My point stands -- your $500 windows netbook argument overlooks TCO. While the up front cost is cheaper than a $1000 macbook air, it incurs additional support costs later. 
    LOL... So you are the mediator who determines what is allowed to be discussed here?   That's funny.    Especially in light of your fallacious logic.

    As a side note about initial cost and longevity:   I'm typing this on a 5 year old Windows laptop where the only maintenance has been expanded memory and an updated OS -- it meets all of my needs supremely well.   Conversely, my 2 year old IPhone and my 4 month old Apple Watch have both been in for repairs in the past 2 weeks.   That's not to trash Apple -- they make good products and back them up.  Rather, it is to point out the ideologically biased fallacy of your argument.

    Fortunately, Apple management knows better than to let themselves get painted into the corner you are trying to put them in.
    I never claimed to be a mod -- I'm just saying that in the context of rational discussion, your "But Windows is more popular!!" argument is pretty meaningless when it comes to our talk about TCO. It's a logical fallacy that has been thoroughly debunked in the link I supplied.

    As for you claim that my point about TCO is some sort of "bias" or (non-sensically) a "fallacy", you are completely wrong. It's based on data.  My point has been singular and unwavering -- Macs are cheaper to maintain because they suck less than Windows. IBM pegs it between $250-550 cheaper, in fact:

    http://www.imore.com/macs-are-543-cheaper-windows-pcs-says-ibm

    More:

    http://www.computerworld.com/article/3131906/apple-mac/ibm-says-macs-are-even-cheaper-to-run-than-it-thought.html
    http://www.informationweek.com/mobile/mobile-devices/ibm-mac-users-need-less-it-support/d/d-id/1322698
    https://www.extremetech.com/computing/238002-ibm-claims-moving-to-mac-drastically-reduced-support-calls-operating-costs
    http://www.businessinsider.com/an-ibm-it-guy-macs-are-300-cheaper-to-own-than-windows-2016-10

    ...now that $500 netbook isn't so cheap anymore. Your singular data point about "But mine works fine!" is an anecdote, and is pretty meaningless on its own. Do you have links from enterprise orgs that back up your own anecdote, in a similar way that IBM that backs up mine?

    And I have no idea what you're talking about with Apple management and corners.

    edited March 2017
  • Reply 34 of 39
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,387member
    danvm said:
    foggyhill said:
    wolfboy said:
    From how few comments there, it looks like people aren't that excited or impressed with with Apple Pensil or the IPad Pro.

    I own the IPad Pro 9.7 and pencil and while I think there is a niche for it, it's not a "killer app" that's going to suddenly drive IPad sales.  The problem is, at the price point they're trying to sell it at, an Apple laptop would be more effective for 99% of the potential buyers.

    Personally, I can type 2x (+) over my writing (pen) speed.  So, while an IPad pencil might be great for artists and people taking notes in a college lecture hall, everywhere else it's terribly inefficient.

    Apple needs to give up on their post-pc vision for everything and give people what they want, a $800 laptop bult with Apple quality perhaps running an Ax chip with built in 4G/5G wireless running either an expanded OS X (with a proper file system, etc) or a hardened MacOS with all apps coming from the App Store (for security) and sand boxing anything needing custom programming (I.e. for a C++ class college classes).

    Nothing can beat the flexibility of a PC...

    I'll continue to be an IPad buyer, and the IPhone is a great product, but the two products aren't the answer for everything.  I'm not going to spend $1500 to get a decent laptop, when a serviceable $500 Windows PC will get the job done.  If Apple made an $800 laptop I'd never touch Windows again.

    Ah, another "Apple needs to..." post which really means "I want this..." Just buy a notebook. And no, Apple won't ever make $500 netbooks.
    The snark is unnecessary. Seanismorris makes a good point (minus the netbook comment). Although Apple does make an $800 laptop - the Macbook Air 13 (often on sale at Best Buy for that much or even less $750 at times). I left Windows with the trainwreck that was Vista and haven't looked back - UNTIL the Surface Pro came out.  IMO, it's the perfect device - software aside. If it wasn't for Windows 10 data mining I would have already jumped.  I am really curious to see what Samsung is doing with the newly unveiled Galaxy Book line.  I'd pay iPad Pro 12.9 premium (ESPECIALLY with LTE) is it was a full OS. Hell, even make two versions of the Pro (iOS and full OS) 
    Huh! Perfect device except for the software!!! What! The tight integration of SW - HW is the whole point of Apple.
    And I've used it, it is in NO WAY, a perfect device at all !! Man.
    Does Apple have the perfect device?  Don't think so.  Every device, smartphone, tablet, notebook, PC, 2-in-1, excel at some things and fail at others.  Many Mac users have iPads, since the Mac won't do all the things they need, and vice versa.  2-in-1 / SP4 have compromises too, but there are many people that benefits from the way they work. 

    I have a SP4, and I know is not the perfect device.  But it does more than an iPad or a Mac, even though is not the best tablet or the best notebook.  Right now I miss some features from my iPad and MBA, but at the same time I see some advantages over my Apple devices.  Like I posted before, customer satisfaction of the SP4 may prove MS is doing something right, even though still not the perfect device.

    http://www.zdnet.com/article/microsofts-surface-apples-ipad-in-customer-satisfaction-dead-heat/
    Good points...
    But I wonder if the limitations in your SP4 are in its execution rather than it's basic concept/design.   Apple excels at execution.   Steve Jobs baked that into the company -- it's all in the details.   Microsoft typically fails....
    Right now, battery life is the worst offender.  Apart from that, everything can be managed, same as iOS and MacOS.  And I agree with execution, but sometimes Apple fails at it.  For example, add a keyboard to an iPad Pro doesn't make it a PC replacement.  In this case, MS executed better than Apple. 
  • Reply 35 of 39
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,387member
    From how few comments there, it looks like people aren't that excited or impressed with with Apple Pensil or the IPad Pro.

    I own the IPad Pro 9.7 and pencil and while I think there is a niche for it, it's not a "killer app" that's going to suddenly drive IPad sales.  The problem is, at the price point they're trying to sell it at, an Apple laptop would be more effective for 99% of the potential buyers.

    Personally, I can type 2x (+) over my writing (pen) speed.  So, while an IPad pencil might be great for artists and people taking notes in a college lecture hall, everywhere else it's terribly inefficient.

    Apple needs to give up on their post-pc vision for everything and give people what they want, a $800 laptop bult with Apple quality perhaps running an Ax chip with built in 4G/5G wireless running either an expanded OS X (with a proper file system, etc) or a hardened MacOS with all apps coming from the App Store (for security) and sand boxing anything needing custom programming (I.e. for a C++ class college classes).

    Nothing can beat the flexibility of a PC...

    I'll continue to be an IPad buyer, and the IPhone is a great product, but the two products aren't the answer for everything.  I'm not going to spend $1500 to get a decent laptop, when a serviceable $500 Windows PC will get the job done.  If Apple made an $800 laptop I'd never touch Windows again.
    The laptop format is great for some things.  The tablet format is great for other things.

    Rather than build a cheap laptop, they should simply install a touchpad in the IPad Pro's keyboard -- and then you have the best of both worlds.

    But I certainly agree with your point that it is hard to justify $1,500 for a laptop when a $500 Windows laptop meets your needs.  I suppose if you're a professional with a particular need for that $1,500 laptop it would be different.  But, most people don't buy a Porsche just to go to the grocery store.  A few do.   But not many.

    But, a $1,000 IPad that can function well in laptop mode when attached to its keyboard/trackpad would satisfy both the functional and the pricing requirement for most people.  
    You're completely overlooking TCO -- in my experience Windows notebooks are often a PITA. I've had family members ask me what to get, ignore it and get a cheap Windows machine, and call me frustrated and needing help with all the random ways Windows sucks, or failing/flaky hardware (thinking wifi adapter). Eventually ditching the machine and repeating the process. 

    You get what you pay for. 
    Most of the world disagrees with you...  
    You're right that Windows notebooks are not on par with Mac notebooks.   But then, neither is a Chevy on par with a Mercedes.  But, they'll get you to the grocery store.
    You're committing the logical fallacy known as "appeal to popularity" which has no place in this discussion:

     https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/40/Appeal-to-Popularity

    My point stands -- your $500 windows netbook argument overlooks TCO. While the up front cost is cheaper than a $1000 macbook air, it incurs additional support costs later. 
    LOL... So you are the mediator who determines what is allowed to be discussed here?   That's funny.    Especially in light of your fallacious logic.

    As a side note about initial cost and longevity:   I'm typing this on a 5 year old Windows laptop where the only maintenance has been expanded memory and an updated OS -- it meets all of my needs supremely well.   Conversely, my 2 year old IPhone and my 4 month old Apple Watch have both been in for repairs in the past 2 weeks.   That's not to trash Apple -- they make good products and back them up.  Rather, it is to point out the ideologically biased fallacy of your argument.

    Fortunately, Apple management knows better than to let themselves get painted into the corner you are trying to put them in.
    I never claimed to be a mod -- I'm just saying that in the context of rational discussion, your "But Windows is more popular!!" argument is pretty meaningless when it comes to our talk about TCO. It's a logical fallacy that has been thoroughly debunked in the link I supplied.

    As for you claim that my point about TCO is some sort of "bias" or (non-sensically) a "fallacy", you are completely wrong. It's based on data.  My point has been singular and unwavering -- Macs are cheaper to maintain because they suck less than Windows. IBM pegs it between $250-550 cheaper, in fact:

    http://www.imore.com/macs-are-543-cheaper-windows-pcs-says-ibm

    More:

    http://www.computerworld.com/article/3131906/apple-mac/ibm-says-macs-are-even-cheaper-to-run-than-it-thought.html
    http://www.informationweek.com/mobile/mobile-devices/ibm-mac-users-need-less-it-support/d/d-id/1322698
    https://www.extremetech.com/computing/238002-ibm-claims-moving-to-mac-drastically-reduced-support-calls-operating-costs
    http://www.businessinsider.com/an-ibm-it-guy-macs-are-300-cheaper-to-own-than-windows-2016-10

    ...now that $500 netbook isn't so cheap anymore. Your singular data point about "But mine works fine!" is an anecdote, and is pretty meaningless on its own. Do you have links from enterprise orgs that back up your own anecdote, in a similar way that IBM that backs up mine?

    And I have no idea what you're talking about with Apple management and corners.

    Do I believe IBM/Jamf study results?  Of course, same I have to believe Microsoft, Oracle or Red Hat when they publish their studies.  And all of them show how their products and services have a better TCO than the competition, and I don't think they lie.  But those studies not necessarily apply to every enterprise and business case. 

    MS have their own studies that show details of Windows 10 TCO.  Would you trust them the same way as the IBM / Jamf study?

    http://wincom.blob.core.windows.net/documents/Windows 10 TEI Study.pdf

    A few months ago, MS announced that the USA DoD will move 4 millions seats to Windows 10. 

    https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2016/02/17/us-department-of-defense-commits-to-upgrade-4-million-seats-to-windows-10/

    I'm sure DoD they did their assignment, and analyzed other options.  But Windows 10 looks like was the right one for them.  I don't think TCO in Windows 10 should be bad if a customer went ahead with a deployment of W10 in 4 million devices.

    BTW, I found interesting for the study you posted how IBM used Jamf, and not their soluition, BigFix.  If BigFix wasn't good enough to manage Mac's environments, how do I know if it's good for managing Windows environments?  Could it be that MS System Center / Intune are better options than IBM BigFix, resulting in lower TCO?  Just saying...
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 36 of 39
    I am the an example of someone who will never own another laptop. I was in the market for one nearly 2 years ago (as well as looking to upgrade my iPad 2) but when apple announced the Pro I thought it was better to spend my money on the 12.9 iPad Pro then to by the air 2 and a MacBook Pro. Having now spent 15 months wrestling with the challenges of changing my workflow to suit that of an iPad, I can say that I will never own a laptop again. Are there things that are still easier to do on a laptop or a desktop, and I still get frustrated from time to time trying to do something on my iPad that is easier to do on a laptop, but I fight with it and I come up with unique solutions that sometimes just get the job done despite it being a pain in the ass or in other cases I find a solution that is much more novel and intuitive than how I have previously done it. However, these frustrations are becoming fewer and fewer as this new arena is finally being explored in more detail and mature as more companies are starting to reinvent what computers mean to them and how they can best use them. They are no longer static devices.

    Google has really tried to bring an aspect of what the future of computing would look like with their Chrome Books but I think they are failing for a few main reasons; they were too early to make the push to get everyone there and people haven't been properly trained to comprehend this new type of paradigm, one in which programs don't exist and all you need is one window/portal into the internet (this is where apple shines, they nudge people into the direction they want them to go, where as Google expects that people will just figure it out for themselves); and the infrastructure isn't quite there yet. Though I do think they got the idea of one portal to rule them all right, it's just not going to be in the form factor of an archaeic device as a standard laptop. And so it's failed to push that particular future into the mainstream. 

    I also can't see Apple releasing anything like the surface, or even a keyboard with a trackpad... why would I need a precision pointing device on an OS that is designed for a completely different purpose. The pencil is a fantastic complementary tool for the iPad and the purpose of it's use is apparent from those who speak about it's limitations and to those who have really started to embrace it. 

    I have little doubt that the limitations of both the pencil and the iPad that people speak of are by design because Apple has a different vision for what computing and for that matter what computers should be. Those that want to merge the two are not seeing the long term picture. If we were to compare the iPad 2 to the Pro, they are completely different beasts. Not only has the computing power increased to rival laptops but apps themselves have finally begun to catch up to fill the niche that was made by these devices. We are finally just starting to see the fruits of Apple's labour as they push the mainstream into this new era.

    Just my 2 cents, take it for what it's worth... a random person commenting on a fan site.  :)
    spheric
  • Reply 37 of 39
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    I am the an example of someone who will never own another laptop. I was in the market for one nearly 2 years ago (as well as looking to upgrade my iPad 2) but when apple announced the Pro I thought it was better to spend my money on the 12.9 iPad Pro then to by the air 2 and a MacBook Pro. Having now spent 15 months wrestling with the challenges of changing my workflow to suit that of an iPad, I can say that I will never own a laptop again. Are there things that are still easier to do on a laptop or a desktop, and I still get frustrated from time to time trying to do something on my iPad that is easier to do on a laptop, but I fight with it and I come up with unique solutions that sometimes just get the job done despite it being a pain in the ass or in other cases I find a solution that is much more novel and intuitive than how I have previously done it. However, these frustrations are becoming fewer and fewer as this new arena is finally being explored in more detail and mature as more companies are starting to reinvent what computers mean to them and how they can best use them. They are no longer static devices.

    Google has really tried to bring an aspect of what the future of computing would look like with their Chrome Books but I think they are failing for a few main reasons; they were too early to make the push to get everyone there and people haven't been properly trained to comprehend this new type of paradigm, one in which programs don't exist and all you need is one window/portal into the internet (this is where apple shines, they nudge people into the direction they want them to go, where as Google expects that people will just figure it out for themselves); and the infrastructure isn't quite there yet. Though I do think they got the idea of one portal to rule them all right, it's just not going to be in the form factor of an archaeic device as a standard laptop. And so it's failed to push that particular future into the mainstream. 

    I also can't see Apple releasing anything like the surface, or even a keyboard with a trackpad... why would I need a precision pointing device on an OS that is designed for a completely different purpose. The pencil is a fantastic complementary tool for the iPad and the purpose of it's use is apparent from those who speak about it's limitations and to those who have really started to embrace it. 

    I have little doubt that the limitations of both the pencil and the iPad that people speak of are by design because Apple has a different vision for what computing and for that matter what computers should be. Those that want to merge the two are not seeing the long term picture. If we were to compare the iPad 2 to the Pro, they are completely different beasts. Not only has the computing power increased to rival laptops but apps themselves have finally begun to catch up to fill the niche that was made by these devices. We are finally just starting to see the fruits of Apple's labour as they push the mainstream into this new era.

    Just my 2 cents, take it for what it's worth... a random person commenting on a fan site.  :)
    "I also can't see Apple releasing anything like the surface, or even a keyboard with a trackpad... why would I need a precision pointing device on an OS that is designed for a completely different purpose"

    Reason #1:  An Ipad with an external pointer but no cursor, is essentially a laptop with only a touch screen -- which Jobs & current Apple management have both said (and I agree) is not an ergonomically viable solution.   If you have an external keyboard, you need the cursor/touchpad/mouse.  It is true, that you can do what you need to do without it -- but its harder and not a user friendly option.

    Reason #2:  IOS was not 'designed for a completely different purpose'.  It was a scaled down version of MacOS tailored to fit the restricted capacity of a smart phone -- and later expanded into the tablet arena...  

    The truth is:  As you point out, an IPad can be forced into doing pretty much anything a MacBook can do.   But, most people aren't much interested in fighting that battle.   They just want a tool that helps do what they want/need to do as easily as possible.   For some functions, the tablet format works best and for other functions, the laptop format works best.

    My prediction is that somewhere in the near future Apple will release an external keyboard for the IPad with a touch pad and; that device will start eating into the low end of the MacBook line just as the IPhone 6+ ate into the low end IPad line.
  • Reply 38 of 39
    picnic1picnic1 Posts: 3member
    bb-15 said:
    dachar said:
    Has anyone found a good app that can convert text written with an Apple Pencil into typed text?
    All I've heard of is Notes Plus.
    I can get decent results from Notes Plus if I write clearly.  Don't use the feature very much though
  • Reply 39 of 39
    picnic1picnic1 Posts: 3member
    I think the ads are good for pointing out the possibilities many don't even think of as related to the Ipad.  i have a 15" Macbook Pro but also have a 12.9" Ipad Pro--and have had an Ipad since the second week they came out.  I was a long long time user of Windows and last several PCs were custom built.  The Ipad was what pushed me to Apple and now have 6s+ phone, Ipad Pro (and an older Air for streaming) and the Macbook.  But--I admit I now use my Ipad most of the time for all the things the ads point out and more.  I love the Pencil--use it for photo processing (Astropad app which allows you to use the Ipad for Lightroom and Photoshop with Pencil/stylus tied to Macbook screen similar but better IMO than a Wacom graphics tablet which I used for years), use it to annotate PDFs, use it for quick written notes and more. 

    I love the big Pro because I use split screen a lot, continuity is a 'thing' with me between all my devices, Air Drop too, wonderful for creative apps, much better for spread sheets and docs, great for reading newspapers, forums, blogs.  IOW I use it for almost everything.  Like somene mentioned above, I've found ways to use it for most everything, found workarounds and sometimes, yes it is a pain, but it also gives me much greater flexibility.  My one wish is some way to access my external drives but don't expect that to happen anytime soon.  In the meantime I use Dropbox for backup for text based files (and Icloud Drive and Documents app to organize) and a wifi drive for travel photography--which I then upload to my externals via my Macbook (also access the drives for photos that go back to 1999).  

    There is a recent good article written by Walt Mossburg for Verge but even better podcast for Cntrl-Walt-Delete which explores more his wish for sort of expanded IOS/ARM based clamshell--not exactly what I want but interesting to consider.  I have had the Ipad Pro over a year and still haven't settled on a keyboard cover--I use a Logitech BTkeyboard which I often carry with the Ipad but think I'd like a keyboard cover which allows me to quickly transition to just the Ipad but haven't found just the right one (waiting for Ipad event to see if a new one is announced or considering the Brydge keyboard).

    So, count me in the column that both loves the Ipad Pro and the Pencil but also uses it (them) for 95% of my needs which cover a lot of things, far from just consumption.
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