How the technology behind Apple's Touch ID will likely change with 'iPhone 8'

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Comments

  • Reply 21 of 46
    holyoneholyone Posts: 398member
    Soli said:
    holyone said:
    Soli said:
    holyone said:
    So what are they going to do about micro scratches on the glass of the display ? if the sensor is behind glass aren't scratches a bigger problem ? Isn't the reason touch ID is behind sapphire to predominantly avoid this very issue ? Has gorilla gotten as good as sapphire ?
    Have display glass scratches been an issue for you on the iPhone? It hasn't been for me.

    Could the display being the Touch ID sensor mean the underlying tech could pick up a much larger sample of your fingerprint compared to the small sensor in an already limited Home Button space? Meaning, any scratches, micro or otherwise, may not be an issue since the area will be large enough that data points with the print won't be adversely affected.

    How do we know that Apple releasing a next gen iPhone wth a comparatively low yield and $1000+ price tag won't come with a sapphire display or that the reason for using sapphire on the home button wasn't unlike Apple shipping LiquidMetal SIM card ejectors: a minor use case to test the material over the material being absolutely necessary for the component to function. I know a paperclip works just fine for the SIM card ejector.
    Scratches on glass that only need to display images is no issue but scratches on glass that also need to take images could be a big one, but as you say if the entire screen can take the image then maybe no problem but I'm not sure if that's what Apple is going to do considering cost of placing a screen full sensor most of which will never be used for that purpose , that would be only way to realize the argument you're making, coz unless the sensor is full screen no matter how much bigger a print a finger makes area wise the ppi on the sensor means that even a tiny mark would seem big thus possibly affecting the hole thing don't you think?, but I  was just wondering though maybe it'll be as you say we'll see this fall


    what I was thinking Apple might do however is place the sensor at the bottom of the display like a bar wherein that entire chin area can detect a finger also allowing great left and right hand access and minimize costs of placing a costly sensor everywhere even in areas that would likely never be used for print scanning, I however have not seen or read anything alluding to something like that though
    I don't mean the entire display would be a Touch ID sensor, only that if the available space is the entire display, as opposed to just the size of the Home Button, then there's a lot more to work with. I assume you've had your finger print taken before and seen that when you press a digit down it takes up a lot more area than what is available then even if the entire Home Button was a Touch ID sensor. If they went with twice the width and height, which is 4x the area, they could have a lot more point in which to authenticate a user. 
    I think we are saying the same thing Soli, I agree with your thinking, my original post was wondering about how scratches on "glass" might affect this new tech. I was opening a new bank account some time back and spent an annoyingly great amount of time with the bank employee trying to get my finger read by the most ridiculous reader you've ever seen and it had a glass window, I must have gone thirteen times and the guy's solution was to keep polishing the thing with his cloths every time, and you could clearly see scratches on the thing, he ended up going all manual, so that's what I was just wondering about lag 
  • Reply 22 of 46
    subbiessubbies Posts: 71member
    Look back at the articles each year leading up to an iPhone launch. Delayed, delayed, delayed. Same shit every year. Apple work on their phones well in advance of launch
    Solidoozydozen
  • Reply 23 of 46
    macplusplusmacplusplus Posts: 2,111member
    holyone said:
    Soli said:
    holyone said:
    Soli said:
    holyone said:
    So what are they going to do about micro scratches on the glass of the display ? if the sensor is behind glass aren't scratches a bigger problem ? Isn't the reason touch ID is behind sapphire to predominantly avoid this very issue ? Has gorilla gotten as good as sapphire ?
    Have display glass scratches been an issue for you on the iPhone? It hasn't been for me.

    Could the display being the Touch ID sensor mean the underlying tech could pick up a much larger sample of your fingerprint compared to the small sensor in an already limited Home Button space? Meaning, any scratches, micro or otherwise, may not be an issue since the area will be large enough that data points with the print won't be adversely affected.

    How do we know that Apple releasing a next gen iPhone wth a comparatively low yield and $1000+ price tag won't come with a sapphire display or that the reason for using sapphire on the home button wasn't unlike Apple shipping LiquidMetal SIM card ejectors: a minor use case to test the material over the material being absolutely necessary for the component to function. I know a paperclip works just fine for the SIM card ejector.
    Scratches on glass that only need to display images is no issue but scratches on glass that also need to take images could be a big one, but as you say if the entire screen can take the image then maybe no problem but I'm not sure if that's what Apple is going to do considering cost of placing a screen full sensor most of which will never be used for that purpose , that would be only way to realize the argument you're making, coz unless the sensor is full screen no matter how much bigger a print a finger makes area wise the ppi on the sensor means that even a tiny mark would seem big thus possibly affecting the hole thing don't you think?, but I  was just wondering though maybe it'll be as you say we'll see this fall


    what I was thinking Apple might do however is place the sensor at the bottom of the display like a bar wherein that entire chin area can detect a finger also allowing great left and right hand access and minimize costs of placing a costly sensor everywhere even in areas that would likely never be used for print scanning, I however have not seen or read anything alluding to something like that though
    I don't mean the entire display would be a Touch ID sensor, only that if the available space is the entire display, as opposed to just the size of the Home Button, then there's a lot more to work with. I assume you've had your finger print taken before and seen that when you press a digit down it takes up a lot more area than what is available then even if the entire Home Button was a Touch ID sensor. If they went with twice the width and height, which is 4x the area, they could have a lot more point in which to authenticate a user. 
    I think we are saying the same thing Soli, I agree with your thinking, my original post was wondering about how scratches on "glass" might affect this new tech. I was opening a new bank account some time back and spent an annoyingly great amount of time with the bank employee trying to get my finger read by the most ridiculous reader you've ever seen and it had a glass window, I must have gone thirteen times and the guy's solution was to keep polishing the thing with his cloths every time, and you could clearly see scratches on the thing, he ended up going all manual, so that's what I was just wondering about lag 
    It is easy to filter scratches.
  • Reply 24 of 46
    mike54 said:
    "Cook and company don't ship a product until they feel that what they've developed is the best that they can make it..." Well I hope this is true but I know its not.
    You know it is not? YOU know?? And your example of an inferior shipped Apple product is what, again? Also, you might want to give Apple's board a little more credit.
    StrangeDaysfastasleep
  • Reply 25 of 46
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,033member
    holyone said:
    Soli said:
    holyone said:
    Soli said:
    holyone said:
    So what are they going to do about micro scratches on the glass of the display ? if the sensor is behind glass aren't scratches a bigger problem ? Isn't the reason touch ID is behind sapphire to predominantly avoid this very issue ? Has gorilla gotten as good as sapphire ?
    Have display glass scratches been an issue for you on the iPhone? It hasn't been for me.

    Could the display being the Touch ID sensor mean the underlying tech could pick up a much larger sample of your fingerprint compared to the small sensor in an already limited Home Button space? Meaning, any scratches, micro or otherwise, may not be an issue since the area will be large enough that data points with the print won't be adversely affected.

    How do we know that Apple releasing a next gen iPhone wth a comparatively low yield and $1000+ price tag won't come with a sapphire display or that the reason for using sapphire on the home button wasn't unlike Apple shipping LiquidMetal SIM card ejectors: a minor use case to test the material over the material being absolutely necessary for the component to function. I know a paperclip works just fine for the SIM card ejector.
    Scratches on glass that only need to display images is no issue but scratches on glass that also need to take images could be a big one, but as you say if the entire screen can take the image then maybe no problem but I'm not sure if that's what Apple is going to do considering cost of placing a screen full sensor most of which will never be used for that purpose , that would be only way to realize the argument you're making, coz unless the sensor is full screen no matter how much bigger a print a finger makes area wise the ppi on the sensor means that even a tiny mark would seem big thus possibly affecting the hole thing don't you think?, but I  was just wondering though maybe it'll be as you say we'll see this fall


    what I was thinking Apple might do however is place the sensor at the bottom of the display like a bar wherein that entire chin area can detect a finger also allowing great left and right hand access and minimize costs of placing a costly sensor everywhere even in areas that would likely never be used for print scanning, I however have not seen or read anything alluding to something like that though
    I don't mean the entire display would be a Touch ID sensor, only that if the available space is the entire display, as opposed to just the size of the Home Button, then there's a lot more to work with. I assume you've had your finger print taken before and seen that when you press a digit down it takes up a lot more area than what is available then even if the entire Home Button was a Touch ID sensor. If they went with twice the width and height, which is 4x the area, they could have a lot more point in which to authenticate a user. 
    I think we are saying the same thing Soli, I agree with your thinking, my original post was wondering about how scratches on "glass" might affect this new tech. I was opening a new bank account some time back and spent an annoyingly great amount of time with the bank employee trying to get my finger read by the most ridiculous reader you've ever seen and it had a glass window, I must have gone thirteen times and the guy's solution was to keep polishing the thing with his cloths every time, and you could clearly see scratches on the thing, he ended up going all manual, so that's what I was just wondering about lag 
    That's probably more to do with being crappy tech than because of scratches on the glass. Plus, was it even glass or was it plastic? The ones I've seen we're plastic, and seemed really poorly made while surely being unreasonably expensive.
    netmage
  • Reply 26 of 46
    evilutionevilution Posts: 1,398member
    iwoodland said:
    I won't buy it if the sensor is on the back!! I hope it's not!
    It probably will be until they sort out the under-screen sensor.
    where do you think Samsung got the idea if it wasn't stolen Apple info.
  • Reply 27 of 46
    analogjackanalogjack Posts: 1,073member
    My guess is that the 7s will have Touch ID as per usual and the special edition will have it on the front and be very expensive and then Apple can see what floats.
    doozydozen
  • Reply 28 of 46
    firelock said:
    If were to have to delay the iPhone 8 in order to perfect its fingerprint technology, I don't think it would be the end of the world for the company, and in fact might benefit them in the long term. Sure, in the short term the company would take a PR and stock price hit, but IF they follow this up by producing an amazing phone with a working front-facing, underscreen fingerprint sensor then they will gain the reputation of the company that doesn't just rush a product to market to meet an arbitrary deadline set by Wall Street. Instead it would cement their reputation of the company that takes the time to get things right and makes an uncompromised product. And this would help validate the reason why Apple charges a premium for its products.
    It would also help quieten (but not silence) those who say that Apple can't innovate any more.
    Putting the sensor on the back would lead to a cacophony of calls 'Who's copying Samsung now then eh?'.
    Apple would not want that to happen.
    The words
    'stuck between a rock and a hard place'
    and
    'dammed if they do and dammed if they don't'
     seem very apt at the moment.

  • Reply 29 of 46
    netmagenetmage Posts: 314member
    There is no reason to expect that scratches on the surface of the glass will affect the capacitive sensing of the TouchID system. You might notice the home button is opaque because it isn't optically based. 
    Solipscooter63fastasleep
  • Reply 30 of 46
    A lot of people are suggesting Apple are thinking of moving the fingerprint sensor to the back because many of the recent ‘leaks’ show a hole beneath the apple logo. Some are saying why not make the Apple logo the fingerprint sensor then, instead of having two separate items on the back, a good thought. But I can't see it for two reasons,
    1 - as noted above it will seem like Apple will be copying Samsung, and 
    2 - I can't see Apple having a hole through phone cases for those who use them, ugly, and what happens to the battery backs some people use (also ugly).

    I'm wondering if that second hole on the back is for the wireless charging, to allow current through the metal back, or a magnetically located charger such as the apple watch uses. Just a thought.  
    Soli
  • Reply 31 of 46
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,252member
    mike54 said:
    "Cook and company don't ship a product until they feel that what they've developed is the best that they can make it..." Well I hope this is true but I know its not. Cook has given more control to the board and institutional shareholders than compared to Steve Jobs. It will be them deciding if Apple ships a subpar product.
    Citation needed. 
    fastasleep
  • Reply 32 of 46
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    maestro64 said:
    mike54 said:
    "Cook and company don't ship a product until they feel that what they've developed is the best that they can make it..." Well I hope this is true but I know its not. Cook has given more control to the board and institutional shareholders than compared to Steve Jobs. It will be them deciding if Apple ships a subpar product.
    Where do you come up that Apple broad is making product decisions. The only difference is Steve would challenge the engineers and designers to do what they thought could not be done. I do not believe Cook has this skill, the only question has been who is the driving force. Someone is doing the pushing since we are seeing them pushing the limits and delivering great products that work.
    Ultimately, its the technicians/engineers who are the engine.  Yes, a Steve Jobs can enable them and encourage them, even push them, but ultimately it is the tech/engineer who is up till 1:00am making sure that something is "insanely great".  But beyond all of that, it is a culture that not only supports a drive to excellence but tolerates nothing but that drive to excellence.  Mediocrity is not an option in that kind of culture.
    ... Jobs worked hard to develop that culture and, it is his ultimate legacy...
    edited April 2017
  • Reply 33 of 46
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,252member

    tshapi said:
    Hasn't it occurred to anyone.  Apple doesn't necisarilly rush products to market. 

    Apple is 5 years out. They still live by the motto the people don't know what they want til yiu hand it to them.  

    The main difference now, is Tim Cook drops teasers and hints about what that may be to keep the world looking forward to it. 

    Apple will release a major update for the iPhone.  If you pay attention to the rumor mill. This update for iPhone 8 started churning since even before iPhone 7 hit. 
    This update everyone is associating with iPhone anniversary probably has nothing to do with that 


    the declining sales of the iPad are a clear indicator that while people see value in the pocketable iOS devices they no longer see value in a larger piece of tappable glass.  I tend to agree with this...for the money a chromebook is a better buy for most people.  
    Opinion not fact. I believe ipad sales plateaued because they last so long and that their users love them. 

    Solifastasleep
  • Reply 34 of 46
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 6,426member
    jonyo said:
    I hope they can sort it out. Putting the on the back of the phone would be a non-starter for me. The way I use my phone, how I mount it in my car while driving and using it as my music source, the type of case protection I prefer, etc, mean putting the sensor on the back is just not going to work for me. Id that's what they decide to do, I'll just be keeping my iPhone 7 for the time being.
    Is there any special reason the phone needs to be mounted to listen to music? 

    I could understand if you were using a navigation function on the phone, in which case you wouldn't need to unlock the screen, but for music I can't see the need.

    Scanner placement is one of preference. I prefer it on the rear. Some people prefer it on the front.

    Whatever Apple does, I suggest you try it and see if it works for you. If it doesn't, return it.
    doozydozen
  • Reply 35 of 46
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 6,426member
    holyone said:
    So what are they going to do about micro scratches on the glass of the display ? if the sensor is behind glass aren't scratches a bigger problem ? Isn't the reason touch ID is behind sapphire to predominantly avoid this very issue ? Has gorilla gotten as good as sapphire ?
    I think any such implementation would be able to calibrate itself to take permanent marks into account.
  • Reply 36 of 46
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,354member

    tshapi said:
    Hasn't it occurred to anyone.  Apple doesn't necisarilly rush products to market. 

    Apple is 5 years out. They still live by the motto the people don't know what they want til yiu hand it to them.  

    The main difference now, is Tim Cook drops teasers and hints about what that may be to keep the world looking forward to it. 

    Apple will release a major update for the iPhone.  If you pay attention to the rumor mill. This update for iPhone 8 started churning since even before iPhone 7 hit. 
    This update everyone is associating with iPhone anniversary probably has nothing to do with that 


    the declining sales of the iPad are a clear indicator that while people see value in the pocketable iOS devices they no longer see value in a larger piece of tappable glass.  I tend to agree with this...for the money a chromebook is a better buy for most people.  
    Opinion not fact. I believe ipad sales plateaued because they last so long and that their users love them. 

    My iPad 2 didn't last that long as a usable device.  My iPad mini got so slow I tried to get rid of it on Offer Up and found that there were legions of others trying to get rid of theirs.   Longevity doesn't mean sales decline in fact products that have value and last long ...people tend to buy more of them.   Chromebooks are slaughtering the iPad.  That's a fact. 
  • Reply 37 of 46
    bb-15bb-15 Posts: 283member

    tshapi said:
    Hasn't it occurred to anyone.  Apple doesn't necisarilly rush products to market. 

    Apple is 5 years out. They still live by the motto the people don't know what they want til yiu hand it to them.  

    The main difference now, is Tim Cook drops teasers and hints about what that may be to keep the world looking forward to it. 

    Apple will release a major update for the iPhone.  If you pay attention to the rumor mill. This update for iPhone 8 started churning since even before iPhone 7 hit. 
    This update everyone is associating with iPhone anniversary probably has nothing to do with that 


    the declining sales of the iPad are a clear indicator that while people see value in the pocketable iOS devices they no longer see value in a larger piece of tappable glass.  I tend to agree with this...for the money a chromebook is a better buy for most people.  
    Opinion not fact. I believe ipad sales plateaued because they last so long and that their users love them. 

    My iPad 2 didn't last that long as a usable device.  My iPad mini got so slow I tried to get rid of it on Offer Up and found that there were legions of others trying to get rid of theirs.   Longevity doesn't mean sales decline in fact products that have value and last long ...people tend to buy more of them.   Chromebooks are slaughtering the iPad.  That's a fact. 
     The last figures that I can find comparing Chromebooks and iPad shipments come from the first  quarter of 2016.

    * From a Verge article;
    "IDC estimates Apple's US Mac shipments to be around 1.76 million in the latest quarter, meaning Dell, HP, and Lenovo sold nearly 2 million Chromebooks in Q1 combined."

    * From an IDC article;

    "Top Five Tablet Vendors, Shipments, ... First Quarter 2016...

    (...Shipments in millions)

    Vendor

    1Q16 Unit Shipments...





    1. Apple

    10.3 ..."



    * Result; first quarter 2016 shipments of the iPad, 10.3 million. Shipments of Chromebooks, around 2 million. 
    Chromebooks are not slaughtering the iPad. 

    Why? Because anecdotal evidence (what you presented) is not = to actual shipment figures. 
    edited April 2017
  • Reply 38 of 46
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,354member
    That's by VENDOR 

    Of course Apple is going to be #1 they're the only one that makes Macs. 

    http://www.theverge.com/2016/5/19/11711714/chromebooks-outsold-macs-us-idc-figures

    No one will dispute that Apple still makes profits by the bushel but  lots of people are electing to 
    skip the latest iOS device. 

    I for one think Apple is hopefully working on a web dominant device.  The web really is the future 
    and it's just a matter of what vendors corral the masses and make a bit of $$$$ in the process. 

    I think this is why Apple is beating the "services" drum.  Not just because they are financially lucrative when 
    done right and at scale but also because it will allow them to segue into more a Network Computing Apple device. 

    I'd totally buy a $800 hybrid device in the form of the Macbook that had a mode where it was primarily operating from the web. 
  • Reply 39 of 46
    firelock said:
    If were to have to delay the iPhone 8 in order to perfect its fingerprint technology, I don't think it would be the end of the world for the company, and in fact might benefit them in the long term. Sure, in the short term the company would take a PR and stock price hit, but IF they follow this up by producing an amazing phone with a working front-facing, underscreen fingerprint sensor then they will gain the reputation of the company that doesn't just rush a product to market to meet an arbitrary deadline set by Wall Street. Instead it would cement their reputation of the company that takes the time to get things right and makes an uncompromised product. And this would help validate the reason why Apple charges a premium for its products.


    Of course it would be even more awesome if they were going for that technology and managed to get it out in September this year!

  • Reply 40 of 46
    steveausteveau Posts: 292member
    maestro64 said:
    mike54 said:
    "Cook and company don't ship a product until they feel that what they've developed is the best that they can make it..." Well I hope this is true but I know its not. Cook has given more control to the board and institutional shareholders than compared to Steve Jobs. It will be them deciding if Apple ships a subpar product.
    Where do you come up that Apple broad is making product decisions. The only difference is Steve would challenge the engineers and designers to do what they thought could not be done. I do not believe Cook has this skill, the only question has been who is the driving force. Someone is doing the pushing since we are seeing them pushing the limits and delivering great products that work.
    Steve's still doing the pushing. I don't mean he's a ghosty presence, I mean that he is in the DNA of the company.
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