A very false narrative: Microsoft Surface vs Apple iPad, Mac

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  • Reply 81 of 99
    rogifan_newrogifan_new Posts: 3,917member
    brucemc said:
    cali said:
    Microsoft announced that Surface sales plunged %26.

    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/microsoft-blames-slow-surface-sales-205312131.html

    so there goes that. 
    The 26% is revenue, not sales. Microsoft doesn't provide sales for the Surface product line. They said it was due in part to OEMs taking share. Plus I think their hardware is due for a refresh so probably people waiting to purchase. Let's see how Mac sales are when Apple reports.
    "Revenue not sales"  (laughing emoji)

    Where do you get your facts? Microsoft's 10K only says:

    "Surface revenue decreased $285 million or 26%, primarily due to a reduction in volumes sold."

    A bullshit story by Business Insider said it was good news that Microsoft was selling fewer Surface units because the whole point of Surface was to help hardware makers understand how to make with they were already making, just like Nexis and Google! 

    Are those the alternative facts you prefer to the truth?

    I believe Microsoft said it on their earning call. Like I said let's see what Mac sales are when Apple reports next week. Of course we'll never know how well (or not) the touch bar MBP is selling because Apple doesn't provide sales figures by model.
    Well, no one can say that you aren't obtuse.  Indeed we shall see about Mac sales - and if they fall 26% YoY it will be a clear problem - although you don't believe such a decline is any issue for MS.

    As to breaking out the sales models - I must have missed where MS provided the breakout of sales by Surface model.  Can you please provide a link?
    Don't be stupid. I don't expect Mac revenue to fall by 26%. The Mac business for Apple is a much bigger business than Surface is for Microsoft. In fact I'm not even sure why AI feels the need to write about Surface at all. All of these editorials feel very defensive in nature. Kind of like how Donald Trump needs to keep reminding people he won last November. Or constantly touting these so-called accomplishments because he doesn't feel he's getting proper credit from the media.
    ObjectiveTechFan
  • Reply 82 of 99
    rogifan_newrogifan_new Posts: 3,917member
    Unless someone can point to evidence that people are buying Macs instead who cares if Surface revenues are down? Most likely they're down because consumers are waiting for new hardware or are buying cheaper OEM machines. So long as they're buying Windows machines I doubt Microsoft cares whether they buy a Surface or not.
  • Reply 83 of 99
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 4,300member
    brucemc said:

    k2kw said:

    iOS doesn't have mouse pointer support on purpose, as you know. 
    What evidence do you have that Apple's record Mac sales at higher ASPs in Q1 were somehow discounted 2015 refurbs, apart from being necessary to claim that TouchBar didn't sell MBPs? Sounds like alt facts. 
    1.   iOS has pointer support for the Stylus.     Its fine if you are an artist.    If they want to see the iPP in greater numbers they need to make it more versatile and more useful to Professionals.    They should start with mouse/trackpad support and start adding in File and directly attached printer support.   Otherwise sales will continue to decline in the iPP segment.    I'm sure it will come but they are drawing it out far longer than they should.   At least Apple finally updated the regular iPad last month.

    2.   Apple released their new MBP.    I read or heard some where Apple's ASP was up $75.     80% of mac sales are laptops and the MBP was (supposedly) the hot item in 2017 Q1 (among computers).    Since the TB added $300 dollars to the price of the MBP.    That implies that  WAY less than half of MBP sold were had the TB.   Sounds like the Gimmick failed.    Do you have any actual separate number for sales of the MBP with TB versus without?     Apple has had their "mea Culpa" moment.   Hopefully they will be rethinking more dead-ends they started down   (Apple invited journalists who have taken the red pill because that's who they needed to talk to).
    "1) I don't understand the viewpoint that in order to make the iPad (Pro or otherwise) better, Apple needs to change it so that essentially it is almost a Mac "

    It's not binary.   It's not "either/or".  It's not a conversion to different product:  its an enhancement.
    ...You present a strawman argument

    edited April 2017
  • Reply 84 of 99
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 4,300member
    tmay said:
    tht said:


    It would be a niche product on top of the mainstream laptop lineup. I don't think people would have a hard time with the price as long as the drawing input is class leading, keyboard input is acceptable and iOS app integration is good. 

    If you do the straight addition of the bottom SKUs of the iPad Pro 12.9 onto a 2015 MBP15, the end result is:

    $2000 + $800 = $2800
    0.71" + 0.27" = 0.98"
    4.5 lb + 1.6 lb = 6.1 lb
    100 WHr + 38 WHr = 138 WHr battery

    This is the older MBP15. The new MBP15 TB shaved 0.10" of thickness, went down to a 77 WHr battery and lost 0.5 lb.

    Integrating an iPad onto a MBP means these combined numbers will get better, and maybe it gets down to 0.75" thick, 5 lb, and a 100 WHr battery. Something the size of my 2015 MBP15. 

    It'll cost $3000 or more no doubt. But if the flexibility of input methods are realized, that cost can be driven down with time, and models starting at say $1500 could be introduced, like a 12" model. 

    I really think Apple didn't go far enough with the Touchbar. They should have went all the way with it. 

    People love their mechanical keyboards yes. But if you can have 200 buttons visible in a virtual keyboard, perhaps productivity can be enhanced, escpecially since you can use words instead of some single letter or iconography. People who love number pads can have one. The arrow key arrangement could be anyway you want. 

    Then, since it is a touch surface, custom control interfaces could be designed. Like for games. And obviously, something like this could be better as a note taking device, both in classrooms and at home, and drawing pad. 

    One of the factors built into a price is the expected volume it will be sold in. So Apple could design a really nice $4000 laptop but if it could only be sold in tiny quantities it would make no money. 

    That's one of the problems with Surface. At its current price it would be very profitable if it sold in the tens of millions instead of 1 million per quarter. At the same time, one reason why it doesn't sell in high quantities is because it competes against very cheap Windows PC alternatives, many of which are much less desirable but also far less expensive. That matters. 

    ---

    The people who draw up renderings of fantasy hardware often don't think about price or the volume it could to sell at given how much it would cost. 

    Apples hardware business in the late 80s involved selling high end computers that were ~ $10,000+.  It is vastly more profitable today selling mostly $700 iPhones in massive quantities.

    Very true that these fantasy renders don't equate to a successful product, but that is part of the fun. The good ones though, try to solve particular problems, and can walk the line on it being viable product.

    I'm just thinking how to integrate drawing and writing input into a computer form factor, whose input is designed around keyboard and pointer selection input. The dream of having a digital notebook, something that can replace a handwritten notebook hasn't come about just yet. A tablet with a stylus isn't quite there just yet. Then, how those handwritten notes are integrated into computing workflow on a computing platform isn't all that great either. An iPad Pro with the Pencil is still a bit wonky. I would like to have a sharper pencil and less hot zones (eg, my palm accidentally hitting a close button) in application design. Maybe not enough people find value in in drawing or taking hand written notes to make it worthwhile, and it will be forever consigned to niche-dom. 

    This has been something Microsoft has been trying to do for about 15 years now. The Surface is only the latest attempt, and they may be seeing the same roadblocks they've seen before with WIndows XP for Tablet PCs or whatever they called it. I've heard the attachment rate for keyboard covers for Surface devices is greater than 1. Ie, more keyboard covers have been sold than Surface tablets. If so, the implication is that people who have tried the Surface are learning they are basically using it like a laptop, which could spell a bit of trouble for Surface upgrade cycles.

    I have to think that if I was in school or was in a situation where taking notes was done a lot, something like what was outlined here would be quite attractive. I still want that digital hand written notebook. I'm hoping this dual screen clamshell solves a couple of things. I don't need to be doing origami to access the input surface like it is with keyboard covers. Here it is just opening the clamshell and maybe touching a virtual button to switch off the virtual keyboard or sliding the virtual keyboard away. If I need to type, the keyboard would be there in basically an instant. Obvious that trackpad functionality could be done a lot of different ways.
    With so much R&D at Apple, there could be a lot of technologies available in the future to implement handwriting recognition in iOS and hardware. Still, that's a long way from delivering, which may never happen. I would have to believe that Apple and IBM would see many applications for handwriting recognition in enterprise and medicine, just for a couple of examples.
    No...
    One of the drivers for electronic health records was to eliminate common medical errors that occur due to hand written scripts/orders that are misinterpreted.   Changing the reading and interpretation of those poorly written orders to a machine would compound the problem and kill even more people than the medical industry does today.

    No, it's safer, quicker (overall) and more efficient to give them tablets or laptops.
  • Reply 85 of 99
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 4,300member
    chonghy said:
    eightzero said:
    jorgie said:
    I work for a fairly large university (5K staff, 30K students) and the Surface Pro 3/4 has been our default choice for mobile users for 3 years now. We have tried everything from Dell multiple other vendors, and nothing really competes yet.



    Just to clarify: you say this is your employer's default choice, and nothing really competes. I would read that as the supplier (employer) making the choice for the user, not that the user finds it meets their needs or desires. Perhaps it is the default choice based solely on price? Or some other criteria that is important to the purchaser, and not the user?
    I would go a step further and suggest that in the case of many, if not most, universities and large businesses, the reason why there is a continuation of the MS based PC hardware and software is the fact that the very people who direct and work in the IT departments:
    1. are MS die-hard fans / users
    2. need to justify their existence
    3. buy into the "low" cost hardware available

    Sure, there can be issues with software that doesn't have a Mac alternative, but given the fact that Apple addressed that years ago with Bootcamp making the MacBook Pro what used to be considered the best PC you could buy, suggests that's not a good excuse.  

    So I go back to my three points above as reasons why the PC hangs on.  The problem for Microsoft, is that consumers who tried an iPhone, or iPad, when they were really the only game worth considering for a good smartphone or tablet (for the price), unsurprisingly liked what Apple had, got hooked into the ecosystem and started to buy Apple MacBooks, MacBook Pro's and iMacs. 

    And once they've got Apple at home, many then pushed to use the same thing at work, resulting in many companies, including IBM, to realize that it's better to use an Apple product - even when you factor in the higher initial cost,  as they cost less to use over time.

    Every company I have worked for, going back to the days when there wasn't such a thing as a PC, now operate using a combination of PC's and Macs, where the PC users are now the exceptions, not the majority they once were.  I remember back in 2007, when the first iPhone came out, every business colleague I knew was using a Blackberry.  They all laughed at me (I'm a tech early adapter) when I would pull out my iPhone, saying how they could never switch, would never switch, from a physical keyboard to an on-screen keyboard.  I would ask them to pull up a website to look at something business related and they'd get this horrid rendering of a site, with almost nothing laid out correctly.  I'd pull out my iPhone to show them what it should look like, and this is when the Blackberry shell started to crack.  They'd see a website rendered just like what they'd see on their laptop and then they'd start asking what else the iPhone could do.

    At one company, a small retail chain run by a very creative owner, there was a mix of Macs and PC's, more Macs than PC's.  But when the owners sold to a private equity firm, and new upper management was hired, they came in and pushed to get everyone (outside of the graphic design team) on the same laptop, buying a ton of knockoff Thinkpad's (mostly Compaq / HP versions).  I went through 2 laptops in 4 months, both suffering from BSOD syndrome and if I remember correctly, the same issue effected 15 other people as well.  I told them I'd use my personal MacBook Pro instead of trying to get another replacement.

    I ended up leaving the company shortly after, but my wife still worked there so I would go back and visit occasionally and had to laugh seeing the CEO not only working on a MacBook Pro, but having ditched her Blackberry for an iPhone not even 18 months since coming on board.  In fact the CEO was proud to show me she was all "Mac" now.  They also went from having three IT people to just one, in part because some many people moved from PC to Mac.
    Agreed 100%. Problem is Surface try to be the best of both world - laptop and a tablet combined into one. The issue is both are different interface. Something like a male and a female. What you get is a transgender when you try to combine both!!

    That would be a good point -- if it were true...
  • Reply 86 of 99
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 4,300member
    capasicum said:
    boredumb said:
    Well...you did just recently remind us that, 'people who are serious about software should really build their own hardware'...
    Well, Alan Kay meant it in significant way - building your own architecture, including CPUs.

    That is what Apple strived to do since the 1980s by collaborating with VLSI Technology and Acorn on ARM6 and with IBM and Motorola on PowerPC.

    All Surface products are just PCs with touch screens and in small form factor.
    No, they are both tablet and laptop...
    ... MacBook users seem to fear that combination and try to misrepresent it in order to destroy the threat.
    avon b7singularity
  • Reply 87 of 99
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 4,300member
    WLee said:
    sog35 said:
    I'm not here to argue that any of these products is "better" than the other, just that what Samsung and Microsoft have done recently is apparently more exciting and innovative. And obviously there's something to these narratives or else the author wouldn't feel compelled to address them. This whole article boils down to "Apple is still outselling the competition", which does address the straw man "Apple is doomed" narrative (no one really believes Apple is doomed), but it doesn't really address the heart of the issue, which is that 1) Samsung has come up with a really forward-leaning design while Apple is on year three of their current design, and 2) with the Surface Pro 4, Surface Book and now the Surface Studio, Microsoft has released multiple innovative designs while Apple has done less with their Mac lineup.

    The Mac Pro is three years old and turns out to have been a dead-end; the new 12" MacBook was a neat iteration and proof of concept that you could shrink a MacBook Air, but not much of a redesign or really any different that what PC OEMs are doing; the new MacBook Pro has been hammered for it's limitations (somewhat unjustly, IMHO), but even still it's more iterative than innovative, the Touch Bar notwithstanding (and let's be honest, the Touch Bar is not the future); the MacBook Pro also had the unfortunate position of being unveiled at the same time as the Surface Studio, which was a much more exciting unveiling.

    Again, I'm not here to argue whether any Apple, Samsung or Microsoft product is better than another, but it is undeniable that folks expect and desire more Apple innovation than they've seen in the last few years.
    Surface sales are DOWN 26% this quarter....

    I guess all that 'innovation' means little to the people who actually buy the product
    Seriously? Are you aware of why Microsoft do the surface? It's not to be apple and become a hardware company, it is to create something, create a category then let the oem's take it forward. Surface may be nearing the end on that basis, hp, linx, eve, Lenovo, and a host of other companies have started doing surface clones with Microsoft helping them to do so.  Microsoft create the category and then it seems plan to step back. So your argument about sales is either misunderstanding or deliberate false news. 

    By the way, I would love Microsoft to be a hardware company! They make great products in my opinion, not going to happen under Satya through, he's not interested in that at all. 

    2-1s are the way forward I think, the iPad Pro is not a good solution to this, apple need to think different and come up with something creative, that a normal iPad and a £9.99 Bluetooth keyboard couldn't also do.
    I don't think Apple needs to 'think different' on this one.   MS nailed it by producing a single device that can function either as a laptop or tablet -- and that is what is needed because both, due to their form factor, have their unique advantages and disadvantages.   A 2in1 solves those problems.
    ... Just because MS did not do an 'insanely great' job in design and execution does not disprove the concept.

    Apple right now is half pregnant:
    -- They have a laptop trying to pretend to be a tablet with a thin little strip that acts like a tablet. 
    -- They have a tablet with keyboard, but no touchpad & cursor (nor a file system).

    Each is trying to stay true to its original form while dipping a toe into the waters of the other form.
    ...  That isn't going to end well...
  • Reply 88 of 99
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,643member
    tmay said:
    tht said:


    It would be a niche product on top of the mainstream laptop lineup. I don't think people would have a hard time with the price as long as the drawing input is class leading, keyboard input is acceptable and iOS app integration is good. 

    If you do the straight addition of the bottom SKUs of the iPad Pro 12.9 onto a 2015 MBP15, the end result is:

    $2000 + $800 = $2800
    0.71" + 0.27" = 0.98"
    4.5 lb + 1.6 lb = 6.1 lb
    100 WHr + 38 WHr = 138 WHr battery

    This is the older MBP15. The new MBP15 TB shaved 0.10" of thickness, went down to a 77 WHr battery and lost 0.5 lb.

    Integrating an iPad onto a MBP means these combined numbers will get better, and maybe it gets down to 0.75" thick, 5 lb, and a 100 WHr battery. Something the size of my 2015 MBP15. 

    It'll cost $3000 or more no doubt. But if the flexibility of input methods are realized, that cost can be driven down with time, and models starting at say $1500 could be introduced, like a 12" model. 

    I really think Apple didn't go far enough with the Touchbar. They should have went all the way with it. 

    People love their mechanical keyboards yes. But if you can have 200 buttons visible in a virtual keyboard, perhaps productivity can be enhanced, escpecially since you can use words instead of some single letter or iconography. People who love number pads can have one. The arrow key arrangement could be anyway you want. 

    Then, since it is a touch surface, custom control interfaces could be designed. Like for games. And obviously, something like this could be better as a note taking device, both in classrooms and at home, and drawing pad. 

    One of the factors built into a price is the expected volume it will be sold in. So Apple could design a really nice $4000 laptop but if it could only be sold in tiny quantities it would make no money. 

    That's one of the problems with Surface. At its current price it would be very profitable if it sold in the tens of millions instead of 1 million per quarter. At the same time, one reason why it doesn't sell in high quantities is because it competes against very cheap Windows PC alternatives, many of which are much less desirable but also far less expensive. That matters. 

    ---

    The people who draw up renderings of fantasy hardware often don't think about price or the volume it could to sell at given how much it would cost. 

    Apples hardware business in the late 80s involved selling high end computers that were ~ $10,000+.  It is vastly more profitable today selling mostly $700 iPhones in massive quantities.

    Very true that these fantasy renders don't equate to a successful product, but that is part of the fun. The good ones though, try to solve particular problems, and can walk the line on it being viable product.

    I'm just thinking how to integrate drawing and writing input into a computer form factor, whose input is designed around keyboard and pointer selection input. The dream of having a digital notebook, something that can replace a handwritten notebook hasn't come about just yet. A tablet with a stylus isn't quite there just yet. Then, how those handwritten notes are integrated into computing workflow on a computing platform isn't all that great either. An iPad Pro with the Pencil is still a bit wonky. I would like to have a sharper pencil and less hot zones (eg, my palm accidentally hitting a close button) in application design. Maybe not enough people find value in in drawing or taking hand written notes to make it worthwhile, and it will be forever consigned to niche-dom. 

    This has been something Microsoft has been trying to do for about 15 years now. The Surface is only the latest attempt, and they may be seeing the same roadblocks they've seen before with WIndows XP for Tablet PCs or whatever they called it. I've heard the attachment rate for keyboard covers for Surface devices is greater than 1. Ie, more keyboard covers have been sold than Surface tablets. If so, the implication is that people who have tried the Surface are learning they are basically using it like a laptop, which could spell a bit of trouble for Surface upgrade cycles.

    I have to think that if I was in school or was in a situation where taking notes was done a lot, something like what was outlined here would be quite attractive. I still want that digital hand written notebook. I'm hoping this dual screen clamshell solves a couple of things. I don't need to be doing origami to access the input surface like it is with keyboard covers. Here it is just opening the clamshell and maybe touching a virtual button to switch off the virtual keyboard or sliding the virtual keyboard away. If I need to type, the keyboard would be there in basically an instant. Obvious that trackpad functionality could be done a lot of different ways.
    With so much R&D at Apple, there could be a lot of technologies available in the future to implement handwriting recognition in iOS and hardware. Still, that's a long way from delivering, which may never happen. I would have to believe that Apple and IBM would see many applications for handwriting recognition in enterprise and medicine, just for a couple of examples.
    No...
    One of the drivers for electronic health records was to eliminate common medical errors that occur due to hand written scripts/orders that are misinterpreted.   Changing the reading and interpretation of those poorly written orders to a machine would compound the problem and kill even more people than the medical industry does today.

    No, it's safer, quicker (overall) and more efficient to give them tablets or laptops.
    iPad's are in fact tablets, and real time handwriting recognition would be an alternate to typing, just as voice is for messages, since it is easy to do single handed, and standing. All of the reports and orders would still be viewable on the device as text prior to sending to the medical systems database.
  • Reply 89 of 99
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 4,300member
    tmay said:
    tmay said:
    tht said:


    It would be a niche product on top of the mainstream laptop lineup. I don't think people would have a hard time with the price as long as the drawing input is class leading, keyboard input is acceptable and iOS app integration is good. 

    If you do the straight addition of the bottom SKUs of the iPad Pro 12.9 onto a 2015 MBP15, the end result is:

    $2000 + $800 = $2800
    0.71" + 0.27" = 0.98"
    4.5 lb + 1.6 lb = 6.1 lb
    100 WHr + 38 WHr = 138 WHr battery

    This is the older MBP15. The new MBP15 TB shaved 0.10" of thickness, went down to a 77 WHr battery and lost 0.5 lb.

    Integrating an iPad onto a MBP means these combined numbers will get better, and maybe it gets down to 0.75" thick, 5 lb, and a 100 WHr battery. Something the size of my 2015 MBP15. 

    It'll cost $3000 or more no doubt. But if the flexibility of input methods are realized, that cost can be driven down with time, and models starting at say $1500 could be introduced, like a 12" model. 

    I really think Apple didn't go far enough with the Touchbar. They should have went all the way with it. 

    People love their mechanical keyboards yes. But if you can have 200 buttons visible in a virtual keyboard, perhaps productivity can be enhanced, escpecially since you can use words instead of some single letter or iconography. People who love number pads can have one. The arrow key arrangement could be anyway you want. 

    Then, since it is a touch surface, custom control interfaces could be designed. Like for games. And obviously, something like this could be better as a note taking device, both in classrooms and at home, and drawing pad. 

    One of the factors built into a price is the expected volume it will be sold in. So Apple could design a really nice $4000 laptop but if it could only be sold in tiny quantities it would make no money. 

    That's one of the problems with Surface. At its current price it would be very profitable if it sold in the tens of millions instead of 1 million per quarter. At the same time, one reason why it doesn't sell in high quantities is because it competes against very cheap Windows PC alternatives, many of which are much less desirable but also far less expensive. That matters. 

    ---

    The people who draw up renderings of fantasy hardware often don't think about price or the volume it could to sell at given how much it would cost. 

    Apples hardware business in the late 80s involved selling high end computers that were ~ $10,000+.  It is vastly more profitable today selling mostly $700 iPhones in massive quantities.

    Very true that these fantasy renders don't equate to a successful product, but that is part of the fun. The good ones though, try to solve particular problems, and can walk the line on it being viable product.

    I'm just thinking how to integrate drawing and writing input into a computer form factor, whose input is designed around keyboard and pointer selection input. The dream of having a digital notebook, something that can replace a handwritten notebook hasn't come about just yet. A tablet with a stylus isn't quite there just yet. Then, how those handwritten notes are integrated into computing workflow on a computing platform isn't all that great either. An iPad Pro with the Pencil is still a bit wonky. I would like to have a sharper pencil and less hot zones (eg, my palm accidentally hitting a close button) in application design. Maybe not enough people find value in in drawing or taking hand written notes to make it worthwhile, and it will be forever consigned to niche-dom. 

    This has been something Microsoft has been trying to do for about 15 years now. The Surface is only the latest attempt, and they may be seeing the same roadblocks they've seen before with WIndows XP for Tablet PCs or whatever they called it. I've heard the attachment rate for keyboard covers for Surface devices is greater than 1. Ie, more keyboard covers have been sold than Surface tablets. If so, the implication is that people who have tried the Surface are learning they are basically using it like a laptop, which could spell a bit of trouble for Surface upgrade cycles.

    I have to think that if I was in school or was in a situation where taking notes was done a lot, something like what was outlined here would be quite attractive. I still want that digital hand written notebook. I'm hoping this dual screen clamshell solves a couple of things. I don't need to be doing origami to access the input surface like it is with keyboard covers. Here it is just opening the clamshell and maybe touching a virtual button to switch off the virtual keyboard or sliding the virtual keyboard away. If I need to type, the keyboard would be there in basically an instant. Obvious that trackpad functionality could be done a lot of different ways.
    With so much R&D at Apple, there could be a lot of technologies available in the future to implement handwriting recognition in iOS and hardware. Still, that's a long way from delivering, which may never happen. I would have to believe that Apple and IBM would see many applications for handwriting recognition in enterprise and medicine, just for a couple of examples.
    No...
    One of the drivers for electronic health records was to eliminate common medical errors that occur due to hand written scripts/orders that are misinterpreted.   Changing the reading and interpretation of those poorly written orders to a machine would compound the problem and kill even more people than the medical industry does today.

    No, it's safer, quicker (overall) and more efficient to give them tablets or laptops.
    iPad's are in fact tablets, and real time handwriting recognition would be an alternate to typing, just as voice is for messages, since it is easy to do single handed, and standing. All of the reports and orders would still be viewable on the device as text prior to sending to the medical systems database.
    You're putting tech based ideology ahead of reality:
    When a physician scribbles out an order the poor, abbreviated handwriting is often misread by humans.  Trying to get a machine to read those scribbles would increase the rate of error, not decrease it.   The healthcare industry has rightly gone the route of entering the order directly into the electronic system via keyboard -- and thus eliminated a large source of error and patient death.

    Most layman have an idealized vision of the healthcare industry:  they believe it is a solid, reliable system.   It is not.   In this case it is a tired, harried physician scribbling out a highly abbreviated, barely intelligible order where a single character can mean the difference between life and death for a patient -- followed by an equally tired and harried nurse trying to read and interpret that order and make sense out of it....  
    ...  Injecting machine voice-to-text misinterpretations into that system makes little sense
    ... Removing a major source of error does make sense and that's where the industry is going. 
  • Reply 90 of 99
    brucemc said:
    Microsoft's "success" with it's devices is easily monitored when I leave the Apple Store in the St. Louis Galleria mall location and walk down the corridor past the Microsoft store.  Day of the week or time of day doesn't matter, there is never more than one or two customers present to busy the store staff.  But it is always a contrast to the numbers of customers at the Apple Store.  Sad.


    Most of the people in the Apple Store are there for service or help...not buying products. The real difference is in the users on the Windows side, much more self sufficient and on the product side...just works. Different clientele is all and you know that.   The days of people going to the Apple store to look a "latest products" are over as their tech is sort of stale but they still need to service the devices and answer user questions.


    Delusional 


    Hardly delusional, at least with regard to the demographic actually in the store.  Every time I go to the local Apple Store, there are generally very few who aren't waiting for someone to help them with a problem.  The stored is often crowded with folks sitting at the tables waiting for geniuses.  There are many fewer just browsing the displays.

    I'm not addressing the difference between the MS Store and the Apple Store.  I suspect there are other reasons for that difference than those previously stated, but since those reasons would paint MS in a good light, I also suspect that I will be called delusional as well.

    avon b7
  • Reply 91 of 99
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 3,642member
    brucemc said:
    Microsoft's "success" with it's devices is easily monitored when I leave the Apple Store in the St. Louis Galleria mall location and walk down the corridor past the Microsoft store.  Day of the week or time of day doesn't matter, there is never more than one or two customers present to busy the store staff.  But it is always a contrast to the numbers of customers at the Apple Store.  Sad.


    Most of the people in the Apple Store are there for service or help...not buying products. The real difference is in the users on the Windows side, much more self sufficient and on the product side...just works. Different clientele is all and you know that.   The days of people going to the Apple store to look a "latest products" are over as their tech is sort of stale but they still need to service the devices and answer user questions.


    Delusional 


    Hardly delusional, at least with regard to the demographic actually in the store.  Every time I go to the local Apple Store, there are generally very few who aren't waiting for someone to help them with a problem.  The stored is often crowded with folks sitting at the tables waiting for geniuses.  There are many fewer just browsing the displays.

    I'm not addressing the difference between the MS Store and the Apple Store.  I suspect there are other reasons for that difference than those previously stated, but since those reasons would paint MS in a good light, I also suspect that I will be called delusional as well.

    Yes. You will be labelled delusional but I agree with you. For all the people in the store, just count the amount that actually leave with something. It is a tiny percentage.
  • Reply 92 of 99
    nhtnht Posts: 4,429member
    avon b7 said:
    brucemc said:

    Most of the people in the Apple Store are there for service or help...not buying products. The real difference is in the users on the Windows side, much more self sufficient and on the product side...just works. Different clientele is all and you know that.   The days of people going to the Apple store to look a "latest products" are over as their tech is sort of stale but they still need to service the devices and answer user questions.


    Delusional 


    Hardly delusional, at least with regard to the demographic actually in the store.  Every time I go to the local Apple Store, there are generally very few who aren't waiting for someone to help them with a problem.  The stored is often crowded with folks sitting at the tables waiting for geniuses.  There are many fewer just browsing the displays.

    I'm not addressing the difference between the MS Store and the Apple Store.  I suspect there are other reasons for that difference than those previously stated, but since those reasons would paint MS in a good light, I also suspect that I will be called delusional as well.

    Yes. You will be labelled delusional but I agree with you. For all the people in the store, just count the amount that actually leave with something. It is a tiny percentage.
    You guys are called delusional because Apple stores rank number 1 in profit per square foot year after year.  You don't get that because only a tiny percentage of folks visiting the store buys anything and everyone there is only getting their stuff fixed.
  • Reply 93 of 99
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 3,642member
    nht said:
    avon b7 said:
    brucemc said:

    Most of the people in the Apple Store are there for service or help...not buying products. The real difference is in the users on the Windows side, much more self sufficient and on the product side...just works. Different clientele is all and you know that.   The days of people going to the Apple store to look a "latest products" are over as their tech is sort of stale but they still need to service the devices and answer user questions.


    Delusional 


    Hardly delusional, at least with regard to the demographic actually in the store.  Every time I go to the local Apple Store, there are generally very few who aren't waiting for someone to help them with a problem.  The stored is often crowded with folks sitting at the tables waiting for geniuses.  There are many fewer just browsing the displays.

    I'm not addressing the difference between the MS Store and the Apple Store.  I suspect there are other reasons for that difference than those previously stated, but since those reasons would paint MS in a good light, I also suspect that I will be called delusional as well.

    Yes. You will be labelled delusional but I agree with you. For all the people in the store, just count the amount that actually leave with something. It is a tiny percentage.
    You guys are called delusional because Apple stores rank number 1 in profit per square foot year after year.  You don't get that because only a tiny percentage of folks visiting the store buys anything and everyone there is only getting their stuff fixed.
    Must be because there are other ways to buy that don't require you to visit an Apple Store but a visit does let you to get a feel of the product.
  • Reply 94 of 99
    nhtnht Posts: 4,429member
    avon b7 said:
    nht said:
    avon b7 said:
    Yes. You will be labelled delusional but I agree with you. For all the people in the store, just count the amount that actually leave with something. It is a tiny percentage.
    You guys are called delusional because Apple stores rank number 1 in profit per square foot year after year.  You don't get that because only a tiny percentage of folks visiting the store buys anything and everyone there is only getting their stuff fixed.
    Must be because there are other ways to buy that don't require you to visit an Apple Store but a visit does let you to get a feel of the product.
    If the sales not made at their store it's not a retail sale and it doesn't count toward their profit per square foot metric.

    Must be because Apple stores sell a lot of product.
    spheric
  • Reply 95 of 99
    sog35 said:
    Surface sales are DOWN 26% this quarter....

    I guess all that 'innovation' means little to the people who actually buy the product
    That doesn't really address the points that I made. And not that it matters, but if I were to speculate about the decline in Surface revenue I would probably point towards two things:
    1. Surface Pro 4 makes up the majority of Surface sales and it was not refreshed during the last quarter. Microsoft and other retailers offered a range of different discounts for the product.
    2. Other PC vendors have stepped up their game in the 2-in-1/convertible category in the last year, as Microsoft hoped they would.
  • Reply 96 of 99
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 3,642member
    nht said:
    avon b7 said:
    nht said:
    avon b7 said:
    Yes. You will be labelled delusional but I agree with you. For all the people in the store, just count the amount that actually leave with something. It is a tiny percentage.
    You guys are called delusional because Apple stores rank number 1 in profit per square foot year after year.  You don't get that because only a tiny percentage of folks visiting the store buys anything and everyone there is only getting their stuff fixed.
    Must be because there are other ways to buy that don't require you to visit an Apple Store but a visit does let you to get a feel of the product.
    If the sales not made at their store it's not a retail sale and it doesn't count toward their profit per square foot metric.

    Must be because Apple stores sell a lot of product.
    No one doubts that. The point was that those sales only account for a fraction of people actually in a shop at any given time. Just count the people who leave empty handed or with the same product they entered with.
    nhtbeowulfschmidt
  • Reply 97 of 99
    ph382ph382 Posts: 28member
    tmay said:
    iPad's are in fact tablets, and real time handwriting recognition would be an alternate to typing, just as voice is for messages, since it is easy to do single handed, and standing. All of the reports and orders would still be viewable on the device as text prior to sending to the medical systems database.
    To me, the important part of your comment is the real-time handwriting recognition.  That allows errors to be caught immediately by the writer, and propagated no further.

  • Reply 98 of 99
    Such an unpleasant article written in a language that smells purely hatred towards Samsung and Microsoft. In reality both of these companies maybe rivals of Apple in certain areas, they are also parters; they do business together.

    The article conveniently talks about Steve Ballmer's Microsoft as if it was still relevant today. Under Steve Ballmer Microsoft tried to be many things from being an advertisement company (aQuantive write down of ~6 billion) to a mobile phone manufacturer (Nokia write down of ~7 billion). Are these relevant today? Sure not. Just like Apple being a failed concern, ready to file for Chapter 11 is not relevant today. Microsoft today is a company that actively develops software not only for iPhone, iPad, Android, Mac but also for Linux. Its once Windows only server applications are running now on the operating system Steve Ballmer called cancer of the industry, 

    What you need to see is, the media lost its interest in Apple. That is the whole point. Because the company is mismanaged, it is not exciting any more. Leave everything aside it is at least a major PR failure, and it doesn't matter how you slice and dice the revenues. Today's Apple is reactive not leading. Today's Apple asks customers what they need and try to make that rather than creating new markets, or introducing first to the market products.

    Today's Apple is managed as if it was just another SP500 company.

    The industry doesn't need that. The industry needs the company what Apple used to be.


    edited August 2017
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