Apple execs Angela Ahrendts and Bruce Sewell each sell over $10M in company stock

2

Comments

  • Reply 21 of 53
    RTCRTC Posts: 14member
    gatorguy said:
    Soli said:
    gatorguy said:
    Soli said:
    gatorguy said:
    Soli said:
    gatorguy said:
    chasm said:
    1. Apple employees aren't minimum wage workers, so no donations needed. Now the Walton family, OTOH, are just plain robber barons. 
    Ms Ahrendts is responsible for:
    Apple store Mac Specialist -  $13.34/hr
    Apple Retail Specialist - $14.94/hr
    Family Room Specialist - $15.58/hr

    So not that far from minimum wage.
    Considering the federal minimum wage is $7.25, which is minimum of an 84% increase over your stated hourly pay, I'd say that's well above minimum wage.
    Many, many states mandate minimum wages higher than that. 
    I live in one of those states, and that invalidates your entire statement because it means that at least two of the three can't possibly apply.

    Are you saying that Apple just shores ups the minimum wage for that state and then leaves it at that, or do you think that they adjust the payscale accordingong to fit local economic costs and the ability to hire for a specific position? I'm pretty certain it's the latter.
    Why are you pretty sure it's the latter? Not at all saying you are incorrect, but is there any evidence of it?
    If they can get people to work for the minimum wage then why have positions that start nearly at 2x the minimum wage? Why do you think that in some state where the minimum is $7.25/hour Apple would think it's too low, but in, say, Cupertino, they tell employees of different ranks that they only get minimum wage for the state?
    My guess based on Glassdoor reported salaries is that Apple is paying only slightly higher than mandated minimum wages for some retail positions in the lowest wage states. 
    As little as $9/hr for Mac Specialists
    $10/hr for Apple Retail Specialists

    ...and I'm not saying Apple should pay them more. I was simply advising the OP who sounded as tho he was under the impression they were paid better than that. 

    EDIT: I  note that giving $11M to an already very wealthy woman who could not possibly spend the money she already has accomplishes less for our economy than distributing that same $11 million to the lowest paid Apple employees who almost certainly will spend it primarily locally. I realize that to some $11M isn't much, but to a low-paid hourly worker an extra few hundred bonus can mean a lot. 

    For instance, Apple has around 265 stores, and says they average 100 employees each and most are full time (meaning some are not of course). But assume 20% of those employees are the lowest paid ones. If that $11Million were distributed to them how much could be given to each of those lowest paid to allow them to pay off debt, assist with rent, down-payment on a more reliable vehicle, or pay for schooling? I've already done the math. 

    How do you know how much money she needs? A nice house in a top rated region can already cost you over 10 million. Then let's talk maintenance, cars, a nice yacht and more, 11 million aren't a lot in the rich man's (woman's) world. I spend around 600k per year for my lifestyle/family and I do not consider myself rich. Some of my friends spend 600k in a month...
  • Reply 22 of 53
    mariomario Posts: 348member
    lkrupp said:
    gatorguy said:
    chasm said:
    1. Apple employees aren't minimum wage workers, so no donations needed. Now the Walton family, OTOH, are just plain robber barons. 
    Ms Ahrendts is responsible for:
    Apple store Mac Specialist -  $13.34/hr
    Apple Retail Specialist - $14.94/hr
    Family Room Specialist - $15.58/hr

    So not that far from minimum wage.

    Luckily your Marxist socialist utopia fell when the Soviet Union did. Take your Robin Hood fantasy and shove it.
    If that only were the case. Unfortunately, cultural Marxists (a mutated form of Marxism) are taking over our society and destroying it from within.
  • Reply 23 of 53
    linkmanlinkman Posts: 1,017member
    RTC said:
    gatorguy said:
    Soli said:
    gatorguy said:
    Soli said:
    gatorguy said:
    Soli said:
    gatorguy said:
    chasm said:
    1. Apple employees aren't minimum wage workers, so no donations needed. Now the Walton family, OTOH, are just plain robber barons. 
    Ms Ahrendts is responsible for:
    Apple store Mac Specialist -  $13.34/hr
    Apple Retail Specialist - $14.94/hr
    Family Room Specialist - $15.58/hr

    So not that far from minimum wage.
    Considering the federal minimum wage is $7.25, which is minimum of an 84% increase over your stated hourly pay, I'd say that's well above minimum wage.
    Many, many states mandate minimum wages higher than that. 
    I live in one of those states, and that invalidates your entire statement because it means that at least two of the three can't possibly apply.

    Are you saying that Apple just shores ups the minimum wage for that state and then leaves it at that, or do you think that they adjust the payscale accordingong to fit local economic costs and the ability to hire for a specific position? I'm pretty certain it's the latter.
    Why are you pretty sure it's the latter? Not at all saying you are incorrect, but is there any evidence of it?
    If they can get people to work for the minimum wage then why have positions that start nearly at 2x the minimum wage? Why do you think that in some state where the minimum is $7.25/hour Apple would think it's too low, but in, say, Cupertino, they tell employees of different ranks that they only get minimum wage for the state?
    My guess based on Glassdoor reported salaries is that Apple is paying only slightly higher than mandated minimum wages for some retail positions in the lowest wage states. 
    As little as $9/hr for Mac Specialists
    $10/hr for Apple Retail Specialists

    ...and I'm not saying Apple should pay them more. I was simply advising the OP who sounded as tho he was under the impression they were paid better than that. 

    EDIT: I  note that giving $11M to an already very wealthy woman who could not possibly spend the money she already has accomplishes less for our economy than distributing that same $11 million to the lowest paid Apple employees who almost certainly will spend it primarily locally. I realize that to some $11M isn't much, but to a low-paid hourly worker an extra few hundred bonus can mean a lot. 

    For instance, Apple has around 265 stores, and says they average 100 employees each and most are full time (meaning some are not of course). But assume 20% of those employees are the lowest paid ones. If that $11Million were distributed to them how much could be given to each of those lowest paid to allow them to pay off debt, assist with rent, down-payment on a more reliable vehicle, or pay for schooling? I've already done the math. 

    How do you know how much money she needs? A nice house in a top rated region can already cost you over 10 million. Then let's talk maintenance, cars, a nice yacht and more, 11 million aren't a lot in the rich man's (woman's) world. I spend around 600k per year for my lifestyle/family and I do not consider myself rich. Some of my friends spend 600k in a month...
    How much would you have to earn to consider yourself rich? If you are spending $600000/year we can assume that you earn at least that much. That puts you into the top 0.5% of incomes in the US. $1 million/year would be in the top 0.1%.
  • Reply 24 of 53
    lkrupplkrupp Posts: 9,525member
    linkman said:
    RTC said:
    gatorguy said:
    Soli said:
    gatorguy said:
    Soli said:
    gatorguy said:
    Soli said:
    gatorguy said:
    chasm said:
    1. Apple employees aren't minimum wage workers, so no donations needed. Now the Walton family, OTOH, are just plain robber barons. 
    Ms Ahrendts is responsible for:
    Apple store Mac Specialist -  $13.34/hr
    Apple Retail Specialist - $14.94/hr
    Family Room Specialist - $15.58/hr

    So not that far from minimum wage.
    Considering the federal minimum wage is $7.25, which is minimum of an 84% increase over your stated hourly pay, I'd say that's well above minimum wage.
    Many, many states mandate minimum wages higher than that. 
    I live in one of those states, and that invalidates your entire statement because it means that at least two of the three can't possibly apply.

    Are you saying that Apple just shores ups the minimum wage for that state and then leaves it at that, or do you think that they adjust the payscale accordingong to fit local economic costs and the ability to hire for a specific position? I'm pretty certain it's the latter.
    Why are you pretty sure it's the latter? Not at all saying you are incorrect, but is there any evidence of it?
    If they can get people to work for the minimum wage then why have positions that start nearly at 2x the minimum wage? Why do you think that in some state where the minimum is $7.25/hour Apple would think it's too low, but in, say, Cupertino, they tell employees of different ranks that they only get minimum wage for the state?
    My guess based on Glassdoor reported salaries is that Apple is paying only slightly higher than mandated minimum wages for some retail positions in the lowest wage states. 
    As little as $9/hr for Mac Specialists
    $10/hr for Apple Retail Specialists

    ...and I'm not saying Apple should pay them more. I was simply advising the OP who sounded as tho he was under the impression they were paid better than that. 

    EDIT: I  note that giving $11M to an already very wealthy woman who could not possibly spend the money she already has accomplishes less for our economy than distributing that same $11 million to the lowest paid Apple employees who almost certainly will spend it primarily locally. I realize that to some $11M isn't much, but to a low-paid hourly worker an extra few hundred bonus can mean a lot. 

    For instance, Apple has around 265 stores, and says they average 100 employees each and most are full time (meaning some are not of course). But assume 20% of those employees are the lowest paid ones. If that $11Million were distributed to them how much could be given to each of those lowest paid to allow them to pay off debt, assist with rent, down-payment on a more reliable vehicle, or pay for schooling? I've already done the math. 

    How do you know how much money she needs? A nice house in a top rated region can already cost you over 10 million. Then let's talk maintenance, cars, a nice yacht and more, 11 million aren't a lot in the rich man's (woman's) world. I spend around 600k per year for my lifestyle/family and I do not consider myself rich. Some of my friends spend 600k in a month...
    How much would you have to earn to consider yourself rich? If you are spending $600000/year we can assume that you earn at least that much. That puts you into the top 0.5% of incomes in the US. $1 million/year would be in the top 0.1%.
    I once asked an elderly woman from a working class family whom she considered to be rich. Her answer? Someone who made $100K a year. I’ve never understood where the politicians came up with the $250K figure as the cutoff for being rich either. Hilary and the Dems were always talking about raising taxes on people who made $250K or more. Who gets to define ‘rich’?
  • Reply 25 of 53
    RTCRTC Posts: 14member
    Me and my wife make around 800k a year. I do not consider myself to be rich but I am doing well. Rich means that you do not have to think twice about the money you spend. 800k sound a lot but with kids, a big house, four cars, a "comfortable" lifestyle and so on, the money flies out the window faster than you think. You need to look at the perspective here. For a goat farmer in Africa, even an Apple Store employee would be considered to be rich.
    I am German living in Germany and we usually hide our wealth because of people who think they know how much money me and my family are supposed to "need". We work hard for our money, so I do not care what others think but since envy is a big part of German society, we need to be careful with our lifestyle here. I am surprised to learn that the US has envy issues as well. An aftermath of the Obama era?!
  • Reply 26 of 53
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 23,245member
    RTC said:
    Me and my wife make around 800k a year. I do not consider myself to be rich but I am doing well...
    I am German living in Germany and we usually hide our wealth because of people who think they know how much money me and my family are supposed to "need". We work hard for our money, so I do not care what others think but since envy is a big part of German society, we need to be careful with our lifestyle here. I am surprised to learn that the US has envy issues as well. 
    Does your German society have the same level of greed issues as in the US?
  • Reply 27 of 53
    thrangthrang Posts: 895member
    gatorguy said:
    Soli said:
    gatorguy said:
    Soli said:
    gatorguy said:
    chasm said:
    1. Apple employees aren't minimum wage workers, so no donations needed. Now the Walton family, OTOH, are just plain robber barons. 
    Ms Ahrendts is responsible for:
    Apple store Mac Specialist -  $13.34/hr
    Apple Retail Specialist - $14.94/hr
    Family Room Specialist - $15.58/hr

    So not that far from minimum wage.
    Considering the federal minimum wage is $7.25, which is minimum of an 84% increase over your stated hourly pay, I'd say that's well above minimum wage.
    Many, many states mandate minimum wages higher than that. 
    I live in one of those states, and that invalidates your entire statement because it means that at least two of the three can't possibly apply.

    Are you saying that Apple just shores ups the minimum wage for that state and then leaves it at that, or do you think that they adjust the payscale accordingong to fit local economic costs and the ability to hire for a specific position? I'm pretty certain it's the latter.
    Why are you pretty sure it's the latter? Not at all saying you are incorrect, but the salaries I posted is the overall avaerage, which includes "your state". They actually pay as little as $9/hour for some retail positions in some stores depending on the state.  
    https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Apple-Salaries-E1138.htm


    Different jobs have differing intrinsic values - you don't pay more just because you can afford to, nor should you because of some artificial government mandate. Many starting jobs will not and should not have "living wages." If you want to blame the failed liberal-led education system in our country, that's a different discussion - but if you want to earn more, you have to get off your ass, improve yourself, and make your intrinsic value to the marketplace higher. The opportunities are there.

    This country is hell bent on handing money over for nothing to people who don't want to make an effort, and in forcing private companies to do the same. The only destination on that path is off a cliff.
    My wife and I do well. Should we pay our landscaper $100 to cut our grass every week when the going rate is $40 - just because we "can?"

    Many people have no drive, and no desire, to work hard and earn wealth. So be it.
    edited May 2017
  • Reply 28 of 53
    icoco3icoco3 Posts: 1,468member
    RTC said:
    gatorguy said:
    Soli said:
    gatorguy said:
    Soli said:
    gatorguy said:
    Soli said:
    gatorguy said:
    chasm said:
    1. Apple employees aren't minimum wage workers, so no donations needed. Now the Walton family, OTOH, are just plain robber barons. 
    Ms Ahrendts is responsible for:
    Apple store Mac Specialist -  $13.34/hr
    Apple Retail Specialist - $14.94/hr
    Family Room Specialist - $15.58/hr

    So not that far from minimum wage.
    Considering the federal minimum wage is $7.25, which is minimum of an 84% increase over your stated hourly pay, I'd say that's well above minimum wage.
    Many, many states mandate minimum wages higher than that. 
    I live in one of those states, and that invalidates your entire statement because it means that at least two of the three can't possibly apply.

    Are you saying that Apple just shores ups the minimum wage for that state and then leaves it at that, or do you think that they adjust the payscale accordingong to fit local economic costs and the ability to hire for a specific position? I'm pretty certain it's the latter.
    Why are you pretty sure it's the latter? Not at all saying you are incorrect, but is there any evidence of it?
    If they can get people to work for the minimum wage then why have positions that start nearly at 2x the minimum wage? Why do you think that in some state where the minimum is $7.25/hour Apple would think it's too low, but in, say, Cupertino, they tell employees of different ranks that they only get minimum wage for the state?
    My guess based on Glassdoor reported salaries is that Apple is paying only slightly higher than mandated minimum wages for some retail positions in the lowest wage states. 
    As little as $9/hr for Mac Specialists
    $10/hr for Apple Retail Specialists

    ...and I'm not saying Apple should pay them more. I was simply advising the OP who sounded as tho he was under the impression they were paid better than that. 

    EDIT: I  note that giving $11M to an already very wealthy woman who could not possibly spend the money she already has accomplishes less for our economy than distributing that same $11 million to the lowest paid Apple employees who almost certainly will spend it primarily locally. I realize that to some $11M isn't much, but to a low-paid hourly worker an extra few hundred bonus can mean a lot. 

    For instance, Apple has around 265 stores, and says they average 100 employees each and most are full time (meaning some are not of course). But assume 20% of those employees are the lowest paid ones. If that $11Million were distributed to them how much could be given to each of those lowest paid to allow them to pay off debt, assist with rent, down-payment on a more reliable vehicle, or pay for schooling? I've already done the math. 

    How do you know how much money she needs? A nice house in a top rated region can already cost you over 10 million. Then let's talk maintenance, cars, a nice yacht and more, 11 million aren't a lot in the rich man's (woman's) world. I spend around 600k per year for my lifestyle/family and I do not consider myself rich. Some of my friends spend 600k in a month...
    Rich is the person with more money than you.  Nobody thinks they are rich but everyone above then is.  It is all relative.
    edited May 2017
  • Reply 29 of 53
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 23,245member
    thrang said:
    gatorguy said:
    Soli said:
    gatorguy said:
    Soli said:
    gatorguy said:
    chasm said:
    1. Apple employees aren't minimum wage workers, so no donations needed. Now the Walton family, OTOH, are just plain robber barons. 
    Ms Ahrendts is responsible for:
    Apple store Mac Specialist -  $13.34/hr
    Apple Retail Specialist - $14.94/hr
    Family Room Specialist - $15.58/hr

    So not that far from minimum wage.
    Considering the federal minimum wage is $7.25, which is minimum of an 84% increase over your stated hourly pay, I'd say that's well above minimum wage.
    Many, many states mandate minimum wages higher than that. 
    I live in one of those states, and that invalidates your entire statement because it means that at least two of the three can't possibly apply.

    Are you saying that Apple just shores ups the minimum wage for that state and then leaves it at that, or do you think that they adjust the payscale accordingong to fit local economic costs and the ability to hire for a specific position? I'm pretty certain it's the latter.
    Why are you pretty sure it's the latter? Not at all saying you are incorrect, but the salaries I posted is the overall avaerage, which includes "your state". They actually pay as little as $9/hour for some retail positions in some stores depending on the state.  
    https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Apple-Salaries-E1138.htm


    Different jobs have differing intrinsic values - you don't pay more just because you can afford to, nor should you because of some artificial government mandate. Many starting jobs will not and should not have "living wages." If you want to blame the failed liberal-led education system in our country, that's a different discussion - but if you want to earn more, you have to get off your ass, improve yourself, and make your intrinsic value to the marketplace higher. The opportunities are there.

    This country is hell bent on handing money over for nothing to people who don't want to make an effort, and in forcing private companies to do the same. The only destination on that path is off a cliff.
    My wife and I do well. Should we pay our landscaper $100 to cut our grass every week when the going rate is $40 - just because we "can?"

    Many people have no drive, and no desire, to work hard and earn wealth. So be it.
    And many do have both the drive and the desire. . .
    Yet not a chance in hell of achieving amazing financial success.

    Meanwhile millions are "born into it", never having to prove their worth. Getting ahead isn't exactly as easy as you seem to want to believe it is. Hard work and desire isn't enough. It may not even be needed to begin if your family connections are good enough.

     I try not to fool myself into believing I've earned every comfort I have by being "so smart and hardworking", smarter than the other guy. Some portion of sucess is due to pure luck. I'm not necessarily "better" or more driven than others with fewer tangible assets. Billionaire Warren Buffett could have ended up as a store manager or clerical worker under different circumstances despite his apparent talents. What if his father had not been relatively well-to-do and owned a brokerage along with some other businesses? You too almost certainly benefitted from specific advantages not necessarily available to someone in a lower tax bracket, but perhaps with just as much potential. So both you and Mr. Buffett have luck on your side whether you want to admit it or not. 

    Betcha that's the first time you and Warren Buffett were mentioned in the same sentence. :)
    edited May 2017
  • Reply 30 of 53
    thrangthrang Posts: 895member
    gatorguy said:
    thrang said:
    gatorguy said:
    Soli said:
    gatorguy said:
    Soli said:
    gatorguy said:
    chasm said:
    1. Apple employees aren't minimum wage workers, so no donations needed. Now the Walton family, OTOH, are just plain robber barons. 
    Ms Ahrendts is responsible for:
    Apple store Mac Specialist -  $13.34/hr
    Apple Retail Specialist - $14.94/hr
    Family Room Specialist - $15.58/hr

    So not that far from minimum wage.
    Considering the federal minimum wage is $7.25, which is minimum of an 84% increase over your stated hourly pay, I'd say that's well above minimum wage.
    Many, many states mandate minimum wages higher than that. 
    I live in one of those states, and that invalidates your entire statement because it means that at least two of the three can't possibly apply.

    Are you saying that Apple just shores ups the minimum wage for that state and then leaves it at that, or do you think that they adjust the payscale accordingong to fit local economic costs and the ability to hire for a specific position? I'm pretty certain it's the latter.
    Why are you pretty sure it's the latter? Not at all saying you are incorrect, but the salaries I posted is the overall avaerage, which includes "your state". They actually pay as little as $9/hour for some retail positions in some stores depending on the state.  
    https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Apple-Salaries-E1138.htm


    Different jobs have differing intrinsic values - you don't pay more just because you can afford to, nor should you because of some artificial government mandate. Many starting jobs will not and should not have "living wages." If you want to blame the failed liberal-led education system in our country, that's a different discussion - but if you want to earn more, you have to get off your ass, improve yourself, and make your intrinsic value to the marketplace higher. The opportunities are there.

    This country is hell bent on handing money over for nothing to people who don't want to make an effort, and in forcing private companies to do the same. The only destination on that path is off a cliff.
    My wife and I do well. Should we pay our landscaper $100 to cut our grass every week when the going rate is $40 - just because we "can?"

    Many people have no drive, and no desire, to work hard and earn wealth. So be it.
    And many do have both the drive and the desire. . .
    Yet not a chance in hell of achieving amazing financial success.

    Meanwhile millions are "born into it", never having to prove their worth. Getting ahead isn't exactly as easy as you seem to want to believe it is. Hard work and desire isn't enough. It may not even be needed to begin if your family connections are good enough.

     I try not to fool myself into believing I've earned every comfort I have by being "so smart and hardworking", smarter than the other guy. Some portion of it is due to pure luck. I'm not necessarily "better" or more driven than others with fewer tangible assets. Warren Buffett could easily have ended up as a store manager or clerical worker working for someone under different circumstances despite his apparent talents. You too. Both of you have luck on your side whether you want to admit it or not. 


    If you're lucky enough to be born into wealth, so what? Good for you. You can sustain yourself and not take government handouts, and stimulate the economy through your well-heeled lifestyle. Someone else doesn't deserve a piece of that fortune, just like you don't deserve a handout of lottery winnings your neighbor was lucky enough to win.

    That doesn't change the fact that if you work hard and constantly educate yourself you will have your share of opportunities. Anyone I personally know, and I mean anyone, has risen to a level approximately commensurate with their education, brains, common sense, morality, and effort.

    There're plenty of unmotivated kids who waste their educational opportunity (or the liberal-led education system has failed them - you can pick the ratio). This is with countless dollars poured into schools and communities, but it never seems to be enough. Since my total tax burden is 50%, (which should be lowered, not increased), I'm more than doing my share.

    Luck finds those who seek it and are willing to work to leverage it. Someone may help you get a job, but so what? You need to have the resume to still be hired, and the skills and work ethic to keep the position.

  • Reply 31 of 53
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,031member
    gatorguy said:
    Some portion of sucess is due to pure luck.
    Nearly all of it comes down to luck.
    gatorguy
  • Reply 32 of 53
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,031member

    thrang said:

    Luck finds those who seek it and are willing to work to leverage it.

    Um… that's the complete opposite meaning of luck.
  • Reply 33 of 53
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 23,245member
    thrang said:
    gatorguy said:
    thrang said:
    gatorguy said:
    Soli said:
    gatorguy said:
    Soli said:
    gatorguy said:
    chasm said:
    1. Apple employees aren't minimum wage workers, so no donations needed. Now the Walton family, OTOH, are just plain robber barons. 
    Ms Ahrendts is responsible for:
    Apple store Mac Specialist -  $13.34/hr
    Apple Retail Specialist - $14.94/hr
    Family Room Specialist - $15.58/hr

    So not that far from minimum wage.
    Considering the federal minimum wage is $7.25, which is minimum of an 84% increase over your stated hourly pay, I'd say that's well above minimum wage.
    Many, many states mandate minimum wages higher than that. 
    I live in one of those states, and that invalidates your entire statement because it means that at least two of the three can't possibly apply.

    Are you saying that Apple just shores ups the minimum wage for that state and then leaves it at that, or do you think that they adjust the payscale accordingong to fit local economic costs and the ability to hire for a specific position? I'm pretty certain it's the latter.
    Why are you pretty sure it's the latter? Not at all saying you are incorrect, but the salaries I posted is the overall avaerage, which includes "your state". They actually pay as little as $9/hour for some retail positions in some stores depending on the state.  
    https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Apple-Salaries-E1138.htm


    Different jobs have differing intrinsic values - you don't pay more just because you can afford to, nor should you because of some artificial government mandate. Many starting jobs will not and should not have "living wages." If you want to blame the failed liberal-led education system in our country, that's a different discussion - but if you want to earn more, you have to get off your ass, improve yourself, and make your intrinsic value to the marketplace higher. The opportunities are there.

    This country is hell bent on handing money over for nothing to people who don't want to make an effort, and in forcing private companies to do the same. The only destination on that path is off a cliff.
    My wife and I do well. Should we pay our landscaper $100 to cut our grass every week when the going rate is $40 - just because we "can?"

    Many people have no drive, and no desire, to work hard and earn wealth. So be it.
    And many do have both the drive and the desire. . .
    Yet not a chance in hell of achieving amazing financial success.

    Meanwhile millions are "born into it", never having to prove their worth. Getting ahead isn't exactly as easy as you seem to want to believe it is. Hard work and desire isn't enough. It may not even be needed to begin if your family connections are good enough.

     I try not to fool myself into believing I've earned every comfort I have by being "so smart and hardworking", smarter than the other guy. Some portion of it is due to pure luck. I'm not necessarily "better" or more driven than others with fewer tangible assets. Warren Buffett could easily have ended up as a store manager or clerical worker working for someone under different circumstances despite his apparent talents. You too. Both of you have luck on your side whether you want to admit it or not. 


    If you're lucky enough to be born into wealth, so what? Good for you. You can sustain yourself and not take government handouts, and stimulate the economy through your well-heeled lifestyle. Someone else doesn't deserve a piece of that fortune, just like you don't deserve a handout of lottery winnings your neighbor was lucky enough to win.

    Nope no one deserves your family wealth. But that has nothing to do with some very intelligent, educated and very motivated hard-working people, folks even more driven than you, having innate disadvantages. They were born in the wrong place. They had an unsupportive family. They were unfortunate enough to work under the "wrong people". Yet Ssome folks are really so full of themselves they seem to truly believe they've EARNED every success they've had. They more special than others and deserve to be treated as such. I would hope you are not one them as it's not a great character trait IMHO. 

    Somewhat surprisingly Mr Buffett doesn't seem to view himself as entitled tho many of much lesser stature sure seem to. He's not making his kids instantly wealthy beyond belief upon his demise either. Good for him and good for his kids IMO. 

    I will note that you are in apparent agreement with me too. We both believe that just because a person has a higher salary, a bigger title, or a larger bank account does not mean they are more intelligent nor more driven to succeed than someone else. 
    edited May 2017
  • Reply 34 of 53
    icoco3icoco3 Posts: 1,468member
    Soli said:
    gatorguy said:
    Some portion of sucess is due to pure luck.
    Nearly all of it comes down to luck.
    But luck won't find those who are sitting on the butts.  One has to be doing in order to find it.
  • Reply 35 of 53
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 23,245member
    icoco3 said:
    Soli said:
    gatorguy said:
    Some portion of sucess is due to pure luck.
    Nearly all of it comes down to luck.
    But luck won't find those who are sitting on the butts.  One has to be doing in order to find it.
    Nor will it find some of those who aren't sitting despite their best efforts. You can do all you can but sometimes it isn't enough. 

    Don't fool yourself into thinking had you been born into a farmer's family in Cuba that you'd be just as successful today because you're "just that smart and hard-working". Luck was on your side sir, and you could have been sitting on your butt much of your life and still had more money right now than the smart and hard-working Cuban farm family member. 
    edited May 2017 Soli
  • Reply 36 of 53
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,031member
    icoco3 said:
    Soli said:
    gatorguy said:
    Some portion of sucess is due to pure luck.
    Nearly all of it comes down to luck.
    But luck won't find those who are sitting on the butts.  One has to be doing in order to find it.
    1) That's not true. To be born at all means you're a rarified opportunity amongst all the potential sperm that could've paired with an egg to create your parent's offspring.

    2) And let's exclude everything outside of aptitude and drive from the equation. Why do you think that your will to not "sit on your butt" is anything but chance of your nature and nurture over another individual?
    edited May 2017
  • Reply 37 of 53
    anantksundaramanantksundaram Posts: 20,237member
    Soli said:
    gatorguy said:
    Some portion of sucess is due to pure luck.
    Nearly all of it comes down to luck.
    Maybe. But when "luck" hands you an opportunity you've got to have the motivation, and/or the education, and/or the skills, and/or the brains, and/or the balls to do something to take advantage of it.
  • Reply 38 of 53
    anantksundaramanantksundaram Posts: 20,237member

    gatorguy said:
    RTC said:
    Me and my wife make around 800k a year. I do not consider myself to be rich but I am doing well...
    I am German living in Germany and we usually hide our wealth because of people who think they know how much money me and my family are supposed to "need". We work hard for our money, so I do not care what others think but since envy is a big part of German society, we need to be careful with our lifestyle here. I am surprised to learn that the US has envy issues as well. 
    Does your German society have the same level of greed issues as in the US? German society have the same level of greed issues as in the US?
    WTF is a "greed issue"?!
  • Reply 39 of 53
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 23,245member

    gatorguy said:
    RTC said:
    Me and my wife make around 800k a year. I do not consider myself to be rich but I am doing well...
    I am German living in Germany and we usually hide our wealth because of people who think they know how much money me and my family are supposed to "need". We work hard for our money, so I do not care what others think but since envy is a big part of German society, we need to be careful with our lifestyle here. I am surprised to learn that the US has envy issues as well. 
    Does your German society have the same level of greed issues as in the US? German society have the same level of greed issues as in the US?
    WTF is a "greed issue"?!
    Apparently similar to an "envy issue". You're not familiar with the economic downsides of greed? You of all people here should IMHO. 
    edited May 2017
  • Reply 40 of 53
    thrangthrang Posts: 895member
    gatorguy said:
    thrang said:
    gatorguy said:
    thrang said:
    gatorguy said:
    Soli said:
    gatorguy said:
    Soli said:
    gatorguy said:
    chasm said:
    1. Apple employees aren't minimum wage workers, so no donations needed. Now the Walton family, OTOH, are just plain robber barons. 
    Ms Ahrendts is responsible for:
    Apple store Mac Specialist -  $13.34/hr
    Apple Retail Specialist - $14.94/hr
    Family Room Specialist - $15.58/hr

    So not that far from minimum wage.
    Considering the federal minimum wage is $7.25, which is minimum of an 84% increase over your stated hourly pay, I'd say that's well above minimum wage.
    Many, many states mandate minimum wages higher than that. 
    I live in one of those states, and that invalidates your entire statement because it means that at least two of the three can't possibly apply.

    Are you saying that Apple just shores ups the minimum wage for that state and then leaves it at that, or do you think that they adjust the payscale accordingong to fit local economic costs and the ability to hire for a specific position? I'm pretty certain it's the latter.
    Why are you pretty sure it's the latter? Not at all saying you are incorrect, but the salaries I posted is the overall avaerage, which includes "your state". They actually pay as little as $9/hour for some retail positions in some stores depending on the state.  
    https://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Apple-Salaries-E1138.htm


    Different jobs have differing intrinsic values - you don't pay more just because you can afford to, nor should you because of some artificial government mandate. Many starting jobs will not and should not have "living wages." If you want to blame the failed liberal-led education system in our country, that's a different discussion - but if you want to earn more, you have to get off your ass, improve yourself, and make your intrinsic value to the marketplace higher. The opportunities are there.

    This country is hell bent on handing money over for nothing to people who don't want to make an effort, and in forcing private companies to do the same. The only destination on that path is off a cliff.
    My wife and I do well. Should we pay our landscaper $100 to cut our grass every week when the going rate is $40 - just because we "can?"

    Many people have no drive, and no desire, to work hard and earn wealth. So be it.
    And many do have both the drive and the desire. . .
    Yet not a chance in hell of achieving amazing financial success.

    Meanwhile millions are "born into it", never having to prove their worth. Getting ahead isn't exactly as easy as you seem to want to believe it is. Hard work and desire isn't enough. It may not even be needed to begin if your family connections are good enough.

     I try not to fool myself into believing I've earned every comfort I have by being "so smart and hardworking", smarter than the other guy. Some portion of it is due to pure luck. I'm not necessarily "better" or more driven than others with fewer tangible assets. Warren Buffett could easily have ended up as a store manager or clerical worker working for someone under different circumstances despite his apparent talents. You too. Both of you have luck on your side whether you want to admit it or not. 


    If you're lucky enough to be born into wealth, so what? Good for you. You can sustain yourself and not take government handouts, and stimulate the economy through your well-heeled lifestyle. Someone else doesn't deserve a piece of that fortune, just like you don't deserve a handout of lottery winnings your neighbor was lucky enough to win.

    Nope no one deserves your family wealth. But that has nothing to do with some very intelligent, educated and very motivated hard-working people, folks even more driven than you, having innate disadvantages. They were born in the wrong place. They had an unsupportive family. They were unfortunate enough to work under the "wrong people". Yet Ssome folks are really so full of themselves they seem to truly believe they've EARNED every success they've had. They more special than others and deserve to be treated as such. I would hope you are not one them as it's not a great character trait IMHO. 

    Somewhat surprisingly Mr Buffett doesn't seem to view himself as entitled tho many of much lesser stature sure seem to. He's not making his kids instantly wealthy beyond belief upon his demise either. Good for him and good for his kids IMO. 

    I will note that you are in apparent agreement with me too. We both believe that just because a person has a higher salary, a bigger title, or a larger bank account does not mean they are more intelligent nor more driven to succeed than someone else. 


    If you think no one deserves a family's wealth, you'd be hard pressed to defend the tax system/total tax burden in the US, especially death taxes.

    Someone's wealth, if inherited, certainly does not imply they are more intelligent or driven (they could be, but may have little impetus to use their intelligence or drive).

    However If you earn your wealth, you likely are.

    Here a hint - we are not all equal. We should have equal protection and access to opportunity, of course, but there's no way we are equal in all mental, physical, moral, and ethical measures. You can't possible believe that. And I'm no elitist - I don't consider myself at the "top" of any of those categories, but I try.

    Despite our personal success, we made our kids work as soon as they were legally able to, and we continue to this day to make sure they get little from us while they figure out what it takes to succeed. They pay a partial rent in fact to live home. But when we croak, we'll pass it along (minus charitable efforts). What a novel concept...an approach where a family tries to be self sufficient over generations.


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