The new Surface uses a 12.3-inch PixelSense touch display rated at 267 pixels per inch, offering 50 percent more pixels than Apple's current 12-inch Retina MacBook, Microsoft claimed. Owners can even switch between sRGB and an "enhanced" color mode powered by technology called the PixelSense Accelerator.
The tablet comes in configurations with Intel Core m3, i5, or i7 processors, its i5 allegedly the first ever with fanless architecture. Performance-wise, the product is said to be up to 1.7 times faster than Apple's existing iPad Pros.
So WTF? Is it supposed to be compared to the iPad or the MacBook?
"Best of both worlds"!! BS!
I'm actually due for a new Surface Pro at work. Hope I can get the Surface Pro 5 rather than the 4. I'm actually trying to convince my office to get me a Dell XPS 13 instead. I can at least put that damn thing on my lap and work!
The Surface Pro is the Chevrolet El Camino (or Ford Ranchero) of the PC market. While there were a few people who actually found some redeeming value in vehicles that were both cramped cars and feeble trucks all rolled into one product, these vehicles were liked by a few but not universally popular products - as evidenced by their removal from production and lack of replacements in the ensuing decades since their demise. People who want great cars buy straight-up cars and people who want great trucks buy straight-up trucks. Microsoft knows this and has since started selling purpose built PCs in addition to the gimmicky Surface Pro, car/truck (cuk).
It's only a matter of time until Microsoft sells a straight-up tablet device that's not limited by the ineffective and limited touch-only functionality of current versions of Windows. Microsoft can only keep trying to pound a square peg into a round hole for so long before they come to their senses and start with a clean slate and deliver products that represent a perfect synergy between the capabilities of both the hardware and the software. Changing the narrative via marketing sleight of hand, i.e., defining a magical hybrid transformer gadget running a hot mess of a do-everything OS is a recipe for compromise at the expense of customer value. They can't keep trying to force two disparate and not-quite-aligned hardware and software components to work well together when neither was purpose built for what they are trying to pass off as an integrated product.
The El Camino was clever but at the end of the day it was a niche product that didn't satisfy either people who needed a first rate car or people who needed a first rate truck. It's inherent compromises doomed it to niche adoption and eventual irrelevance. The Surface Pro hybrid with Windows in its current form is an El Camino and will likely suffer the same fate.
Surface has a huge advantage over any iPad: mouse cursor. No way iPads will be taken seriously in businesses until it behaves as a proper computer, as Apple claims they are. This coming from an Apple fan.
I totally agree, I'll get a iPad Pro when they add mouse support. They have already added pencil support so it should be easy. Till then will get a Surface Pro with LTE hopefully in the fall.
Hopefully Apple will finally have new stuff coming out starting with vast improvements to Siri.
Let along these arguments, I think this it's just different people have different preferences.
The multi-touch functions in Windows are still something that I considered to be a "nice to have", since most of their applications still works best (or only works) with a keyboard and TrackPad/Mouse. It could be helpful when using it to browse the web or just to lightly entertained, or draw a serious picture (but their drawing experiences...not so well compared to iPad Pro), but that's about it. Most people who bought it only using it this way, and they can be happy about it.
Besides that, letting Windows to get better at touch screen it's also harder too.
Sometimes it's more than just preferences what defines what is a better experience, touch or trackpad/keyboard. Netflix and browsing the internet are two examples where touch is more than enough. And both, iOS and Windows do a great job, But when things get complex, then the Surface Pro goes ahead. If I'm working a complex spreadsheet or document, keyboard/trackpad gives a better experience. And even though you can work with a touch version of Numbers or Excel, you still limited navigating and interacting with the document/spreadsheet. What most people do is move away from the iPad to the Mac/PC to finish their work.
Compare that to the Surface Pro, where I can do light tasks with touch and use the keyboard/trackpad for more complex tasks, without the need to move to another device. I can even use a dock and use it as a full desktop with multiples monitors. I don't see how is this a bad thing.
You basically just said what I've said. But the touch experiences was far from perfect. Many software are having lack of support with touch interface, and hard to change the fact overnight because many reasons. Other than that, using mouse and TrackPad to do "basic things" aren't painful, it still works fine, and sometimes you might find it convinent.
The tablet comes in configurations with Intel Core m3, i5, or i7 processors, its i5 allegedly the first ever with fanless architecture.
Yeah, except that fanless i5 was formerly known as core m5.
lol, Microsoft, lol.
From what I have read, the Surface Pro have the Intel Core i5-7300U, which has a 15W TDP, different from the Core m5 that has a 4.5W TDP. IMO, it's amazing how MS went fanless with a device so small and thin as the Surface Pro.
I believe that 7300U will be the top-tier i5 option, while the "fanless" i5 will be the former m5 chip.
Wikipedia has some details of the changes you mention.
You'll notice that under Low / Medium power, the 7Y57 and 7Y54 are under the Core i5 category. These two are 4.5W TDP. The rest of the Core i5 7xxxU are 15W TDP. You are right with the changes Intel made, where there are processors that were Core M, and now are Core i5. But the Surface Pro is using a "real" Core i5 7300U with a 15W TDP without fans.
I will check what they said, putting a 7300U in fanless really have some balls, but I don't expect it will performed well.
The Surface Pro is the Chevrolet El Camino (or Ford Ranchero) of the PC market. While there were a few people who actually found some redeeming value in vehicles that were both cramped cars and feeble trucks all rolled into one product, these vehicles were liked by a few but not universally popular products - as evidenced by their removal from production and lack of replacements in the ensuing decades since their demise. People who want great cars buy straight-up cars and people who want great trucks buy straight-up trucks. Microsoft knows this and has since started selling purpose built PCs in addition to the gimmicky Surface Pro, car/truck (cuk).
It's only a matter of time until Microsoft sells a straight-up tablet device that's not limited by the ineffective and limited touch-only functionality of current versions of Windows. Microsoft can only keep trying to pound a square peg into a round hole for so long before they come to their senses and start with a clean slate and deliver products that represent a perfect synergy between the capabilities of both the hardware and the software. Changing the narrative via marketing sleight of hand, i.e., defining a magical hybrid transformer gadget running a hot mess of a do-everything OS is a recipe for compromise at the expense of customer value. They can't keep trying to force two disparate and not-quite-aligned hardware and software components to work well together when neither was purpose built for what they are trying to pass off as an integrated product.
The El Camino was clever but at the end of the day it was a niche product that didn't satisfy either people who needed a first rate car or people who needed a first rate truck. It's inherent compromises doomed it to niche adoption and eventual irrelevance. The Surface Pro hybrid with Windows in its current form is an El Camino and will likely suffer the same fate.
Your analogy applies too the Porsche Cayenne / Macan and Mercedes Benz AMG crossover SUV's These vehicles aren't the best sports cars, neither are the best off road vehicles. But they are one of the best crossover SUV in the market, and have many advantages over a pure sport car or off road vehicle. And I don't see these vehicles suffering the same fate as the El Camino.
The same can be said of the Surface Pro. A laptop and tablet may have some advantages over a Surface Pro / 2-in-1, but at the same time it has many benefits too. MS did something Apple didn't do, create a capable 2-in-1 device. While Apple think of the Surface Pro / 2-in-1 as a "toaster/fridge", MS kept making the Surface Pro better, to the point customer satisfaction is ahead of the iPad. I hope a device as good as the Surface Pro doesn't end as the El Camino, and keep getting better as Porsche and M-B crossover SUV's.
The crossover analogy isn't even close to the El Camino anaology. The crossovers fill a void in between sedans and SUVs because they typically are samller and more fuel efficient than SUVs, but still a little bit larger than sedans for hauling and small families. They're a compromise for sure, but the El Camino ATTEMPTED to be an inbetweener, but ultimately failed because it was neither a good car nor a good truck.
Which brings us to the SP. It's neither a good laptop nor a good tablet. It's below average in both categories which makes it a bad product in my opinion. The iPad may be a mediocre laptop at best, but it is an exceptional tablet which means it still still fills a void in the market which is purely media consumption.
The Surface Pro is the Chevrolet El Camino (or Ford Ranchero) of the PC market. While there were a few people who actually found some redeeming value in vehicles that were both cramped cars and feeble trucks all rolled into one product, these vehicles were liked by a few but not universally popular products - as evidenced by their removal from production and lack of replacements in the ensuing decades since their demise. People who want great cars buy straight-up cars and people who want great trucks buy straight-up trucks. Microsoft knows this and has since started selling purpose built PCs in addition to the gimmicky Surface Pro, car/truck (cuk).
It's only a matter of time until Microsoft sells a straight-up tablet device that's not limited by the ineffective and limited touch-only functionality of current versions of Windows. Microsoft can only keep trying to pound a square peg into a round hole for so long before they come to their senses and start with a clean slate and deliver products that represent a perfect synergy between the capabilities of both the hardware and the software. Changing the narrative via marketing sleight of hand, i.e., defining a magical hybrid transformer gadget running a hot mess of a do-everything OS is a recipe for compromise at the expense of customer value. They can't keep trying to force two disparate and not-quite-aligned hardware and software components to work well together when neither was purpose built for what they are trying to pass off as an integrated product.
The El Camino was clever but at the end of the day it was a niche product that didn't satisfy either people who needed a first rate car or people who needed a first rate truck. It's inherent compromises doomed it to niche adoption and eventual irrelevance. The Surface Pro hybrid with Windows in its current form is an El Camino and will likely suffer the same fate.
Your analogy applies too the Porsche Cayenne / Macan and Mercedes Benz AMG crossover SUV's These vehicles aren't the best sports cars, neither are the best off road vehicles. But they are one of the best crossover SUV in the market, and have many advantages over a pure sport car or off road vehicle. And I don't see these vehicles suffering the same fate as the El Camino.
The same can be said of the Surface Pro. A laptop and tablet may have some advantages over a Surface Pro / 2-in-1, but at the same time it has many benefits too. MS did something Apple didn't do, create a capable 2-in-1 device. While Apple think of the Surface Pro / 2-in-1 as a "toaster/fridge", MS kept making the Surface Pro better, to the point customer satisfaction is ahead of the iPad. I hope a device as good as the Surface Pro doesn't end as the El Camino, and keep getting better as Porsche and M-B crossover SUV's.
The crossover analogy isn't even close to the El Camino anaology. The crossovers fill a void in between sedans and SUVs because they typically are samller and more fuel efficient than SUVs, but still a little bit larger than sedans for hauling and small families. They're a compromise for sure, but the El Camino ATTEMPTED to be an inbetweener, but ultimately failed because it was neither a good car nor a good truck.
Which brings us to the SP. It's neither a good laptop nor a good tablet. It's below average in both categories which makes it a bad product in my opinion. The iPad may be a mediocre laptop at best, but it is an exceptional tablet which means it still still fills a void in the market which is purely media consumption.
And yet iPad and Tablet sales in general at falling and 2-in-1 sales have been rising. The SP is not the only device in it's category....
I'm not buying the 13.5 hours of battery life though. The claim is that this is with video playback without WiFi and screen on low brightness. However, that's not typical usage. I know for a fact that I can get 12+ hours from an iPad with it actually being used. I
This device is about 50% thicker than the iPad Pro and the latter has more pixels. Notice how they compared it to the 12" MacBook instead of the iPad Pro... why are we comparing laptops to tablets exactly? Why isn't the iPad Pro considered a computer by statistics companies again?
The thing also weights more. I'm not saying it wouldn't be a great device, but I don't think it's all that much better than the existing iPad Pro lineup and Apple is set to announce something new in less than two weeks...
Because you can do heavy workloads on a surface you can not do on an iPad... Can you run VS or equivalent dev environment? Can you run a full on database server like Sql Server? A local web server? Linux? Full Photoshop? No... That's the reason they don't compare to iPads. One is a toy one is a powerful computer for real productivity tasks.
Do you own or use a Surface Pro? Do you believe it is good value for the money to run it as a server? Or use full Photoshop? Why pay the premium for the laptop form factor when what you want is a PC. It costs a lot to get a well spec'd system.
And I am sure you are absolutely horrified at the lack of ports and 16GB limit...
SP is designed to get an i5 or i7 into the lightest form factor and in that regard it does a good job at 1.73 pounds. Granted its not as light as the iPadPro but its both lighter and more powerful than the MacBook and has the same about as many ports as an MacBook Air for a more up to day processor. I've got to say the the Magnetic connection of the Surface Pen is a very nice idea - better than sticking the Pencil out of the lightning port (hopefully Apple comes up with a better idea like magnetic connection and wireless charging between the iPP and Pencil). And for you MS haters, the kick stand is very nice, very convenient to have. I'm a little surprised at the updated Surface Pen because it implies that MS is actually trying to go after the Digital Artist segment that iPP excels in.
The ball is in Apple's court now. Hopefully the i5 without fan SP means Apple can come out with an i5 MacBook.
The iPP is definitely an impressive tablet, but it needs without mouse support its productivity is limited. Ironically Apple has added a keyboard to it but not the mouse. They've only have gone half way there. Time to add basic Mouse support (keep the fixed windows system). Apple needs to slowly expand iOS to do the things the Mac does (not the other way around). They are behind on touch screens besides SIRI.
“Hopefully the i5 without fan SP means Apple can come out with an i5 MacBook."
i doubt it. There's no magic when it comes to cooling, and the most efficient way to do it's always using a fan. To achieve the same temperature as the air-cooled solution, you will need tons of copper, which makes it both heavier and hotter to touch. If someone said they build a "super cool and light system without fan", that basically means the chip won't have much heat to begin with, and usually lower performance. It's basically impossible to put a higher-performance chip without some drawbacks.
Back to 7300U, even most of the chip won't as hot as the i7-U, it will not be as low as 4.5W as well. Intel offers what's called "configurable TDP-Down" to make it runs @7.5W, which is the highest TDP that core m3 can achieved (yes, the TDP of 4.5W doesn't mean everything).
Back to 2016, where there are many notebooks that went "thinner" than the new MacBook, but using a full-power i5/i7 instead the core m. This truly put the MacBook in shame on paper, but all of them will definitely suffered from heavy throttling when you push these machines into some stressful situations.
So back to the topic, to build a MacBook which equipped with a i5/i7 ULV, is either will equipped with a fan, or lowering the TDP, and I will suspect the new Surface Pro did the same.
The Surface Pro is the Chevrolet El Camino (or Ford Ranchero) of the PC market. While there were a few people who actually found some redeeming value in vehicles that were both cramped cars and feeble trucks all rolled into one product, these vehicles were liked by a few but not universally popular products - as evidenced by their removal from production and lack of replacements in the ensuing decades since their demise. People who want great cars buy straight-up cars and people who want great trucks buy straight-up trucks. Microsoft knows this and has since started selling purpose built PCs in addition to the gimmicky Surface Pro, car/truck (cuk).
It's only a matter of time until Microsoft sells a straight-up tablet device that's not limited by the ineffective and limited touch-only functionality of current versions of Windows. Microsoft can only keep trying to pound a square peg into a round hole for so long before they come to their senses and start with a clean slate and deliver products that represent a perfect synergy between the capabilities of both the hardware and the software. Changing the narrative via marketing sleight of hand, i.e., defining a magical hybrid transformer gadget running a hot mess of a do-everything OS is a recipe for compromise at the expense of customer value. They can't keep trying to force two disparate and not-quite-aligned hardware and software components to work well together when neither was purpose built for what they are trying to pass off as an integrated product.
The El Camino was clever but at the end of the day it was a niche product that didn't satisfy either people who needed a first rate car or people who needed a first rate truck. It's inherent compromises doomed it to niche adoption and eventual irrelevance. The Surface Pro hybrid with Windows in its current form is an El Camino and will likely suffer the same fate.
Your analogy applies too the Porsche Cayenne / Macan and Mercedes Benz AMG crossover SUV's These vehicles aren't the best sports cars, neither are the best off road vehicles. But they are one of the best crossover SUV in the market, and have many advantages over a pure sport car or off road vehicle. And I don't see these vehicles suffering the same fate as the El Camino.
The same can be said of the Surface Pro. A laptop and tablet may have some advantages over a Surface Pro / 2-in-1, but at the same time it has many benefits too. MS did something Apple didn't do, create a capable 2-in-1 device. While Apple think of the Surface Pro / 2-in-1 as a "toaster/fridge", MS kept making the Surface Pro better, to the point customer satisfaction is ahead of the iPad. I hope a device as good as the Surface Pro doesn't end as the El Camino, and keep getting better as Porsche and M-B crossover SUV's.
The crossover analogy isn't even close to the El Camino anaology. The crossovers fill a void in between sedans and SUVs because they typically are samller and more fuel efficient than SUVs, but still a little bit larger than sedans for hauling and small families. They're a compromise for sure, but the El Camino ATTEMPTED to be an inbetweener, but ultimately failed because it was neither a good car nor a good truck.
Which brings us to the SP. It's neither a good laptop nor a good tablet. It's below average in both categories which makes it a bad product in my opinion. The iPad may be a mediocre laptop at best, but it is an exceptional tablet which means it still still fills a void in the market which is purely media consumption.
And yet iPad and Tablet sales in general at falling and 2-in-1 sales have been rising. The SP is not the only device in it's category....
I didn't mean that "Apple will definitely win and Microsoft will going to the wrong side of the history", but if let me bet, I would place it on the iPad side, mainly because of Windows. It's not the hardware that's pulling its legs, but Windows are running on a tons of different PCs, as well as many program that will need very special supports.
The Surface Pro is the Chevrolet El Camino (or Ford Ranchero) of the PC market. While there were a few people who actually found some redeeming value in vehicles that were both cramped cars and feeble trucks all rolled into one product, these vehicles were liked by a few but not universally popular products - as evidenced by their removal from production and lack of replacements in the ensuing decades since their demise. People who want great cars buy straight-up cars and people who want great trucks buy straight-up trucks. Microsoft knows this and has since started selling purpose built PCs in addition to the gimmicky Surface Pro, car/truck (cuk).
It's only a matter of time until Microsoft sells a straight-up tablet device that's not limited by the ineffective and limited touch-only functionality of current versions of Windows. Microsoft can only keep trying to pound a square peg into a round hole for so long before they come to their senses and start with a clean slate and deliver products that represent a perfect synergy between the capabilities of both the hardware and the software. Changing the narrative via marketing sleight of hand, i.e., defining a magical hybrid transformer gadget running a hot mess of a do-everything OS is a recipe for compromise at the expense of customer value. They can't keep trying to force two disparate and not-quite-aligned hardware and software components to work well together when neither was purpose built for what they are trying to pass off as an integrated product.
The El Camino was clever but at the end of the day it was a niche product that didn't satisfy either people who needed a first rate car or people who needed a first rate truck. It's inherent compromises doomed it to niche adoption and eventual irrelevance. The Surface Pro hybrid with Windows in its current form is an El Camino and will likely suffer the same fate.
Your analogy applies too the Porsche Cayenne / Macan and Mercedes Benz AMG crossover SUV's These vehicles aren't the best sports cars, neither are the best off road vehicles. But they are one of the best crossover SUV in the market, and have many advantages over a pure sport car or off road vehicle. And I don't see these vehicles suffering the same fate as the El Camino.
The same can be said of the Surface Pro. A laptop and tablet may have some advantages over a Surface Pro / 2-in-1, but at the same time it has many benefits too. MS did something Apple didn't do, create a capable 2-in-1 device. While Apple think of the Surface Pro / 2-in-1 as a "toaster/fridge", MS kept making the Surface Pro better, to the point customer satisfaction is ahead of the iPad. I hope a device as good as the Surface Pro doesn't end as the El Camino, and keep getting better as Porsche and M-B crossover SUV's.
The crossover analogy isn't even close to the El Camino anaology. The crossovers fill a void in between sedans and SUVs because they typically are samller and more fuel efficient than SUVs, but still a little bit larger than sedans for hauling and small families. They're a compromise for sure, but the El Camino ATTEMPTED to be an inbetweener, but ultimately failed because it was neither a good car nor a good truck.
My post wasn't related to the crossover as a vehicle category. I gave specifics examples of crossover SUV's, Porsche Macan/Cayenne and MB AMG SUV's, which are designed as a sports cars, but fail as a real sports car, which are faster, lighter and more agile. But still, those SUV's are one of the best in their respective categories. That's completely different from El Camino, that didn't do anything right.
Which brings us to the SP. It's neither a good laptop nor a good tablet. It's below average in both categories which makes it a bad product in my opinion. The iPad may be a mediocre laptop at best, but it is an exceptional tablet which means it still still fills a void in the market which is purely media consumption.
The Surface Pro have some disadvantages over a notebook and tablet, but has it list of advantages too. If customer satisfaction is ahead of iPads, then the Surafce Pro can't be a bad product, as you think.
The Surface Pro is the Chevrolet El Camino (or Ford Ranchero) of the PC market. While there were a few people who actually found some redeeming value in vehicles that were both cramped cars and feeble trucks all rolled into one product, these vehicles were liked by a few but not universally popular products - as evidenced by their removal from production and lack of replacements in the ensuing decades since their demise. People who want great cars buy straight-up cars and people who want great trucks buy straight-up trucks. Microsoft knows this and has since started selling purpose built PCs in addition to the gimmicky Surface Pro, car/truck (cuk).
It's only a matter of time until Microsoft sells a straight-up tablet device that's not limited by the ineffective and limited touch-only functionality of current versions of Windows. Microsoft can only keep trying to pound a square peg into a round hole for so long before they come to their senses and start with a clean slate and deliver products that represent a perfect synergy between the capabilities of both the hardware and the software. Changing the narrative via marketing sleight of hand, i.e., defining a magical hybrid transformer gadget running a hot mess of a do-everything OS is a recipe for compromise at the expense of customer value. They can't keep trying to force two disparate and not-quite-aligned hardware and software components to work well together when neither was purpose built for what they are trying to pass off as an integrated product.
The El Camino was clever but at the end of the day it was a niche product that didn't satisfy either people who needed a first rate car or people who needed a first rate truck. It's inherent compromises doomed it to niche adoption and eventual irrelevance. The Surface Pro hybrid with Windows in its current form is an El Camino and will likely suffer the same fate.
Although still a niche market, the Nissan Navara is perhaps and modern take on those concepts but is a success.
Nope, the Navara is a 4dr compact pickup, so it's not equivalent at all (that market segment is actually very popular, its surprising that the Navara wasn't more popular) The first analogy was perfect; the surface is truly the el-camino of computers, it isn't a good tablet (for many reasons) and real laptops stomp them senseless. Like the Zune and win-phone they will sell a few to the fanboys but to gain real market you have to be good at something. Like the el camino the surface is a poorly conceived chimera that isn't good at anything.
The Surface Pro is the Chevrolet El Camino (or Ford Ranchero) of the PC market. While there were a few people who actually found some redeeming value in vehicles that were both cramped cars and feeble trucks all rolled into one product, these vehicles were liked by a few but not universally popular products - as evidenced by their removal from production and lack of replacements in the ensuing decades since their demise. People who want great cars buy straight-up cars and people who want great trucks buy straight-up trucks. Microsoft knows this and has since started selling purpose built PCs in addition to the gimmicky Surface Pro, car/truck (cuk).
It's only a matter of time until Microsoft sells a straight-up tablet device that's not limited by the ineffective and limited touch-only functionality of current versions of Windows. Microsoft can only keep trying to pound a square peg into a round hole for so long before they come to their senses and start with a clean slate and deliver products that represent a perfect synergy between the capabilities of both the hardware and the software. Changing the narrative via marketing sleight of hand, i.e., defining a magical hybrid transformer gadget running a hot mess of a do-everything OS is a recipe for compromise at the expense of customer value. They can't keep trying to force two disparate and not-quite-aligned hardware and software components to work well together when neither was purpose built for what they are trying to pass off as an integrated product.
The El Camino was clever but at the end of the day it was a niche product that didn't satisfy either people who needed a first rate car or people who needed a first rate truck. It's inherent compromises doomed it to niche adoption and eventual irrelevance. The Surface Pro hybrid with Windows in its current form is an El Camino and will likely suffer the same fate.
Although still a niche market, the Nissan Navara is perhaps and modern take on those concepts but is a success.
Like the el camino the surface is a poorly conceived chimera that isn't good at anything.
El Camino was an awful concept. The Surface Pro started as a bad concept too, but it evolved to be a great device. So good, customer satisfaction is over the iPad.
The Surface Pro is the Chevrolet El Camino (or Ford Ranchero) of the PC market. While there were a few people who actually found some redeeming value in vehicles that were both cramped cars and feeble trucks all rolled into one product, these vehicles were liked by a few but not universally popular products - as evidenced by their removal from production and lack of replacements in the ensuing decades since their demise. People who want great cars buy straight-up cars and people who want great trucks buy straight-up trucks. Microsoft knows this and has since started selling purpose built PCs in addition to the gimmicky Surface Pro, car/truck (cuk).
It's only a matter of time until Microsoft sells a straight-up tablet device that's not limited by the ineffective and limited touch-only functionality of current versions of Windows. Microsoft can only keep trying to pound a square peg into a round hole for so long before they come to their senses and start with a clean slate and deliver products that represent a perfect synergy between the capabilities of both the hardware and the software. Changing the narrative via marketing sleight of hand, i.e., defining a magical hybrid transformer gadget running a hot mess of a do-everything OS is a recipe for compromise at the expense of customer value. They can't keep trying to force two disparate and not-quite-aligned hardware and software components to work well together when neither was purpose built for what they are trying to pass off as an integrated product.
The El Camino was clever but at the end of the day it was a niche product that didn't satisfy either people who needed a first rate car or people who needed a first rate truck. It's inherent compromises doomed it to niche adoption and eventual irrelevance. The Surface Pro hybrid with Windows in its current form is an El Camino and will likely suffer the same fate.
Your analogy applies too the Porsche Cayenne / Macan and Mercedes Benz AMG crossover SUV's These vehicles aren't the best sports cars, neither are the best off road vehicles. But they are one of the best crossover SUV in the market, and have many advantages over a pure sport car or off road vehicle. And I don't see these vehicles suffering the same fate as the El Camino.
The same can be said of the Surface Pro. A laptop and tablet may have some advantages over a Surface Pro / 2-in-1, but at the same time it has many benefits too. MS did something Apple didn't do, create a capable 2-in-1 device. While Apple think of the Surface Pro / 2-in-1 as a "toaster/fridge", MS kept making the Surface Pro better, to the point customer satisfaction is ahead of the iPad. I hope a device as good as the Surface Pro doesn't end as the El Camino, and keep getting better as Porsche and M-B crossover SUV's.
The crossover analogy isn't even close to the El Camino anaology. The crossovers fill a void in between sedans and SUVs because they typically are samller and more fuel efficient than SUVs, but still a little bit larger than sedans for hauling and small families. They're a compromise for sure, but the El Camino ATTEMPTED to be an inbetweener, but ultimately failed because it was neither a good car nor a good truck.
My post wasn't related to the crossover as a vehicle category. I gave specifics examples of crossover SUV's, Porsche Macan/Cayenne and MB AMG SUV's, which are designed as a sports cars, but fail as a real sports car, which are faster, lighter and more agile. But still, those SUV's are one of the best in their respective categories. That's completely different from El Camino, that didn't do anything right.
Which brings us to the SP. It's neither a good laptop nor a good tablet. It's below average in both categories which makes it a bad product in my opinion. The iPad may be a mediocre laptop at best, but it is an exceptional tablet which means it still still fills a void in the market which is purely media consumption.
The Surface Pro have some disadvantages over a notebook and tablet, but has it list of advantages too. If customer satisfaction is ahead of iPads, then the Surafce Pro can't be a bad product, as you think.
Fair enough. The MB and Porsches you reference are a more niche product and they're mostly aiming at a certain price point for people who want a luxury brand and an SUV but can't afford the full size versions. They are kind of useless and dilute those brands slightly by making them not as exclusive. The worst offender is the CLA in my opinion but that's neither here nor there.
The tablet comes in configurations with Intel Core m3, i5, or i7 processors, its i5 allegedly the first ever with fanless architecture.
Yeah, except that fanless i5 was formerly known as core m5.
lol, Microsoft, lol.
From what I have read, the Surface Pro have the Intel Core i5-7300U, which has a 15W TDP, different from the Core m5 that has a 4.5W TDP. IMO, it's amazing how MS went fanless with a device so small and thin as the Surface Pro.
I believe that 7300U will be the top-tier i5 option, while the "fanless" i5 will be the former m5 chip.
Wikipedia has some details of the changes you mention.
You'll notice that under Low / Medium power, the 7Y57 and 7Y54 are under the Core i5 category. These two are 4.5W TDP. The rest of the Core i5 7xxxU are 15W TDP. You are right with the changes Intel made, where there are processors that were Core M, and now are Core i5. But the Surface Pro is using a "real" Core i5 7300U with a 15W TDP without fans.
I will check what they said, putting a 7300U in fanless really have some balls, but I don't expect it will performed well.
This is why its good to wait to see reviews before buying. It would be great if AppleInsider could do a review comparison of the performance of the Surface Pro vs both iPP, and the MacBook, MBP, and MBAir. Let Niel H., Mike W, and DED, use it for a week and do a comparison each.
The Surface Pro is the Chevrolet El Camino (or Ford Ranchero) of the PC market. While there were a few people who actually found some redeeming value in vehicles that were both cramped cars and feeble trucks all rolled into one product, these vehicles were liked by a few but not universally popular products - as evidenced by their removal from production and lack of replacements in the ensuing decades since their demise. People who want great cars buy straight-up cars and people who want great trucks buy straight-up trucks. Microsoft knows this and has since started selling purpose built PCs in addition to the gimmicky Surface Pro, car/truck (cuk).
It's only a matter of time until Microsoft sells a straight-up tablet device that's not limited by the ineffective and limited touch-only functionality of current versions of Windows. Microsoft can only keep trying to pound a square peg into a round hole for so long before they come to their senses and start with a clean slate and deliver products that represent a perfect synergy between the capabilities of both the hardware and the software. Changing the narrative via marketing sleight of hand, i.e., defining a magical hybrid transformer gadget running a hot mess of a do-everything OS is a recipe for compromise at the expense of customer value. They can't keep trying to force two disparate and not-quite-aligned hardware and software components to work well together when neither was purpose built for what they are trying to pass off as an integrated product.
The El Camino was clever but at the end of the day it was a niche product that didn't satisfy either people who needed a first rate car or people who needed a first rate truck. It's inherent compromises doomed it to niche adoption and eventual irrelevance. The Surface Pro hybrid with Windows in its current form is an El Camino and will likely suffer the same fate.
Your analogy applies too the Porsche Cayenne / Macan and Mercedes Benz AMG crossover SUV's These vehicles aren't the best sports cars, neither are the best off road vehicles. But they are one of the best crossover SUV in the market, and have many advantages over a pure sport car or off road vehicle. And I don't see these vehicles suffering the same fate as the El Camino.
The same can be said of the Surface Pro. A laptop and tablet may have some advantages over a Surface Pro / 2-in-1, but at the same time it has many benefits too. MS did something Apple didn't do, create a capable 2-in-1 device. While Apple think of the Surface Pro / 2-in-1 as a "toaster/fridge", MS kept making the Surface Pro better, to the point customer satisfaction is ahead of the iPad. I hope a device as good as the Surface Pro doesn't end as the El Camino, and keep getting better as Porsche and M-B crossover SUV's.
The crossover analogy isn't even close to the El Camino anaology. The crossovers fill a void in between sedans and SUVs because they typically are samller and more fuel efficient than SUVs, but still a little bit larger than sedans for hauling and small families. They're a compromise for sure, but the El Camino ATTEMPTED to be an inbetweener, but ultimately failed because it was neither a good car nor a good truck.
My post wasn't related to the crossover as a vehicle category. I gave specifics examples of crossover SUV's, Porsche Macan/Cayenne and MB AMG SUV's, which are designed as a sports cars, but fail as a real sports car, which are faster, lighter and more agile. But still, those SUV's are one of the best in their respective categories. That's completely different from El Camino, that didn't do anything right.
Which brings us to the SP. It's neither a good laptop nor a good tablet. It's below average in both categories which makes it a bad product in my opinion. The iPad may be a mediocre laptop at best, but it is an exceptional tablet which means it still still fills a void in the market which is purely media consumption.
The Surface Pro have some disadvantages over a notebook and tablet, but has it list of advantages too. If customer satisfaction is ahead of iPads, then the Surafce Pro can't be a bad product, as you think.
Fair enough. The MB and Porsches you reference are a more niche product and they're mostly aiming at a certain price point for people who want a luxury brand and an SUV but can't afford the full size versions. They are kind of useless and dilute those brands slightly by making them not as exclusive. The worst offender is the CLA in my opinion but that's neither here nor there.
I not necessarily agree with you. IMO, what Porsche and MB did was elevate this category of vehicles. And people have positive feedback from those models, even though there are not pure sports cars or off road vehicles.
Same as the Surface Pro. MS made a device that has limitations compared to a notebook or tablet, but it has advantages too. They took the 2-in-1 concept to another level, even when companies like Apple say it wasn't possible (toaster/fridge), and looks like the results are very positive.
El Camino was an awful concept. The Surface Pro started as a bad concept too, but it evolved to be a great device. So good, customer satisfaction is over the iPad.
So I suppose it has to be good at something, don't you think?
Not so much, that was a survey of early (and few) purchasers. As I indicated they will (and did) sell a few to fanboys, who of course would give the device spectacular ratings. Im sorry but it isn't a very good tablet (because it is using laptop processors and OS) and on the other hand it is a piss poor laptop. Its somewhere in between and serves neither function well. (just like an el camino)
The Surface Pro is the Chevrolet El Camino (or Ford Ranchero) of the PC market. While there were a few people who actually found some redeeming value in vehicles that were both cramped cars and feeble trucks all rolled into one product, these vehicles were liked by a few but not universally popular products - as evidenced by their removal from production and lack of replacements in the ensuing decades since their demise. People who want great cars buy straight-up cars and people who want great trucks buy straight-up trucks. Microsoft knows this and has since started selling purpose built PCs in addition to the gimmicky Surface Pro, car/truck (cuk).
It's only a matter of time until Microsoft sells a straight-up tablet device that's not limited by the ineffective and limited touch-only functionality of current versions of Windows. Microsoft can only keep trying to pound a square peg into a round hole for so long before they come to their senses and start with a clean slate and deliver products that represent a perfect synergy between the capabilities of both the hardware and the software. Changing the narrative via marketing sleight of hand, i.e., defining a magical hybrid transformer gadget running a hot mess of a do-everything OS is a recipe for compromise at the expense of customer value. They can't keep trying to force two disparate and not-quite-aligned hardware and software components to work well together when neither was purpose built for what they are trying to pass off as an integrated product.
The El Camino was clever but at the end of the day it was a niche product that didn't satisfy either people who needed a first rate car or people who needed a first rate truck. It's inherent compromises doomed it to niche adoption and eventual irrelevance. The Surface Pro hybrid with Windows in its current form is an El Camino and will likely suffer the same fate.
Your analogy applies too the Porsche Cayenne / Macan and Mercedes Benz AMG crossover SUV's These vehicles aren't the best sports cars, neither are the best off road vehicles. But they are one of the best crossover SUV in the market, and have many advantages over a pure sport car or off road vehicle. And I don't see these vehicles suffering the same fate as the El Camino.
The same can be said of the Surface Pro. A laptop and tablet may have some advantages over a Surface Pro / 2-in-1, but at the same time it has many benefits too. MS did something Apple didn't do, create a capable 2-in-1 device. While Apple think of the Surface Pro / 2-in-1 as a "toaster/fridge", MS kept making the Surface Pro better, to the point customer satisfaction is ahead of the iPad. I hope a device as good as the Surface Pro doesn't end as the El Camino, and keep getting better as Porsche and M-B crossover SUV's.
The crossover analogy isn't even close to the El Camino anaology. The crossovers fill a void in between sedans and SUVs because they typically are samller and more fuel efficient than SUVs, but still a little bit larger than sedans for hauling and small families. They're a compromise for sure, but the El Camino ATTEMPTED to be an inbetweener, but ultimately failed because it was neither a good car nor a good truck.
My post wasn't related to the crossover as a vehicle category. I gave specifics examples of crossover SUV's, Porsche Macan/Cayenne and MB AMG SUV's, which are designed as a sports cars, but fail as a real sports car, which are faster, lighter and more agile. But still, those SUV's are one of the best in their respective categories. That's completely different from El Camino, that didn't do anything right.
Which brings us to the SP. It's neither a good laptop nor a good tablet. It's below average in both categories which makes it a bad product in my opinion. The iPad may be a mediocre laptop at best, but it is an exceptional tablet which means it still still fills a void in the market which is purely media consumption.
The Surface Pro have some disadvantages over a notebook and tablet, but has it list of advantages too. If customer satisfaction is ahead of iPads, then the Surafce Pro can't be a bad product, as you think.
Speaking of Porsche: Did you see the 2-1 That Porshe Design created. Pretty nice looking. Maybe a better Surface Book than the Surface book. I like the look but have my doubts about how well it would stand up through a few years because the manufacturing is outsourced. https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2017/2/27/14754142/porsche-design-book-one-release-mwc-2017 I'd love to see a iOS based laptop with A11 chip with a similar design but a little lighter - like 2.5 pounds.
El Camino was an awful concept. The Surface Pro started as a bad concept too, but it evolved to be a great device. So good, customer satisfaction is over the iPad.
So I suppose it has to be good at something, don't you think?
Not so much, that was a survey of early (and few) purchasers. As I indicated they will (and did) sell a few to fanboys, who of course would give the device spectacular ratings. Im sorry but it isn't a very good tablet (because it is using laptop processors and OS) and on the other hand it is a piss poor laptop. Its somewhere in between and serves neither function well. (just like an el camino)
The survey is from April 2017, and the SP4 was released in october 2015. So the survey wasn't early on the release of the device. And if the customer satisfaction was higher than the iPad, it has to do something right, don't you think?
IMO, compared it to El Camino is not right at all. I posted before that a comparison to a Porsche / Mercedes Benz AMG SUV is more real. These vehicles are awful sports cars, but still great automobiles. Same as the SP4. It may not be the best tablet or notebook, but it's a great device.
The Surface Pro is the Chevrolet El Camino (or Ford Ranchero) of the PC market. While there were a few people who actually found some redeeming value in vehicles that were both cramped cars and feeble trucks all rolled into one product, these vehicles were liked by a few but not universally popular products - as evidenced by their removal from production and lack of replacements in the ensuing decades since their demise. People who want great cars buy straight-up cars and people who want great trucks buy straight-up trucks. Microsoft knows this and has since started selling purpose built PCs in addition to the gimmicky Surface Pro, car/truck (cuk).
It's only a matter of time until Microsoft sells a straight-up tablet device that's not limited by the ineffective and limited touch-only functionality of current versions of Windows. Microsoft can only keep trying to pound a square peg into a round hole for so long before they come to their senses and start with a clean slate and deliver products that represent a perfect synergy between the capabilities of both the hardware and the software. Changing the narrative via marketing sleight of hand, i.e., defining a magical hybrid transformer gadget running a hot mess of a do-everything OS is a recipe for compromise at the expense of customer value. They can't keep trying to force two disparate and not-quite-aligned hardware and software components to work well together when neither was purpose built for what they are trying to pass off as an integrated product.
The El Camino was clever but at the end of the day it was a niche product that didn't satisfy either people who needed a first rate car or people who needed a first rate truck. It's inherent compromises doomed it to niche adoption and eventual irrelevance. The Surface Pro hybrid with Windows in its current form is an El Camino and will likely suffer the same fate.
Your analogy applies too the Porsche Cayenne / Macan and Mercedes Benz AMG crossover SUV's These vehicles aren't the best sports cars, neither are the best off road vehicles. But they are one of the best crossover SUV in the market, and have many advantages over a pure sport car or off road vehicle. And I don't see these vehicles suffering the same fate as the El Camino.
The same can be said of the Surface Pro. A laptop and tablet may have some advantages over a Surface Pro / 2-in-1, but at the same time it has many benefits too. MS did something Apple didn't do, create a capable 2-in-1 device. While Apple think of the Surface Pro / 2-in-1 as a "toaster/fridge", MS kept making the Surface Pro better, to the point customer satisfaction is ahead of the iPad. I hope a device as good as the Surface Pro doesn't end as the El Camino, and keep getting better as Porsche and M-B crossover SUV's.
The crossover analogy isn't even close to the El Camino anaology. The crossovers fill a void in between sedans and SUVs because they typically are samller and more fuel efficient than SUVs, but still a little bit larger than sedans for hauling and small families. They're a compromise for sure, but the El Camino ATTEMPTED to be an inbetweener, but ultimately failed because it was neither a good car nor a good truck.
My post wasn't related to the crossover as a vehicle category. I gave specifics examples of crossover SUV's, Porsche Macan/Cayenne and MB AMG SUV's, which are designed as a sports cars, but fail as a real sports car, which are faster, lighter and more agile. But still, those SUV's are one of the best in their respective categories. That's completely different from El Camino, that didn't do anything right.
Which brings us to the SP. It's neither a good laptop nor a good tablet. It's below average in both categories which makes it a bad product in my opinion. The iPad may be a mediocre laptop at best, but it is an exceptional tablet which means it still still fills a void in the market which is purely media consumption.
The Surface Pro have some disadvantages over a notebook and tablet, but has it list of advantages too. If customer satisfaction is ahead of iPads, then the Surafce Pro can't be a bad product, as you think.
Speaking of Porsche: Did you see the 2-1 That Porshe Design created. Pretty nice looking. Maybe a better Surface Book than the Surface book. I like the look but have my doubts about how well it would stand up through a few years because the manufacturing is outsourced. https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2017/2/27/14754142/porsche-design-book-one-release-mwc-2017 I'd love to see a iOS based laptop with A11 chip with a similar design but a little lighter - like 2.5 pounds.
Yes, it looks very nice. But I'm not sure if we'll see soon a notebook in that line with an ARM processor. Everything I read of ARM notebooks is for the low end market. We'll see what happens in the next few years.
Impressive looking product. 10 years ago when I bought my first Macbook Pro there was ZERO competition from the Windows side of things for a high end laptop. 8 years ago when I got my first Apple iPhone there was ZERO competition from Android. I still enjoy my 2016 MBP and my iPhone 7, but damn the competition is looking good.
Looking good in everything but the operating and eco systems... I simply can't work with Android or Windows. I find both of them maddening to use.
When you say 'impressive looking', do you mean that figuratively? As much as I love the "high design" of my Apple gear, it's how it works that makes the difference for me, looks are really secondary.
So, if it's running Windows, I probably won't find it appealing. Not for my everyday computing/internet/comms anyway. Apple's ecosystem works great for me. And it is here I will stay unless something seriously changes.
That said, Apple must lead or at least keep up, so I do feel confident I won't be buying new but already-obsolete gear from them anytime soon.
I'm about to replace a 7.5 year old iMac that is still very functional for all but my pro/roduction-level apps. How many people can claim that about a Windows-based system?
I am an apple fan, but VERY disappointed in their decision NOT to provide a touch screen with the MacBook pros, something that the surface pro has and i find very useful. They do have touch screens on all their iPads(and phones), why not the MacBook computers? This is just one of several things that to me, makes the surface pro better. The touch bar is a JOKE! Just an expensive gimmick. Sorry apple. After years of being devoted to Apple products, I am now, really and seriously considering going back to a Microsoft surface pro product. Apple has really fallen behind in a number of areas, but this one alone, is enough to make me want to switch. Sorry to say this, but, it appears to me that Apple has lost their visionary in Steve Jobs. In general, all they are doing now is evolutionary, not revolutionary, and I feel Microsoft has come roaring back with better, and more cutting edge products.
I am an apple fan, but VERY disappointed in their decision NOT to provide a touch screen with the MacBook pros, something that the surface pro has and i find very useful. They do have touch screens on all their iPads(and phones), why not the MacBook computers? This is just one of several things that to me, makes the surface pro better. The touch bar is a JOKE! Just an expensive gimmick. Sorry apple. After years of being devoted to Apple products, I am now, really and seriously considering going back to a Microsoft surface pro product. Apple has really fallen behind in a number of areas, but this one alone, is enough to make me want to switch. Sorry to say this, but, it appears to me that Apple has lost their visionary in Steve Jobs. In general, all they are doing now is evolutionary, not revolutionary, and I feel Microsoft has come roaring back with better, and more cutting edge products.
Our latest Dell laptops where I work all include touch screens. Nobody uses them. If you have a permanently attached keyboard then a touch screen is an expensive gimmick. The fact that a Surface has a touch screen is a gimmick for 99% of the users of them. They always have what are effectively a crappy keyboard and crappy trackpad attached to them. I RARELY see them operated in tablet mode.
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But the touch experiences was far from perfect. Many software are having lack of support with touch interface, and hard to change the fact overnight because many reasons.
Other than that, using mouse and TrackPad to do "basic things" aren't painful, it still works fine, and sometimes you might find it convinent.
Which brings us to the SP. It's neither a good laptop nor a good tablet. It's below average in both categories which makes it a bad product in my opinion. The iPad may be a mediocre laptop at best, but it is an exceptional tablet which means it still still fills a void in the market which is purely media consumption.
And yet iPad and Tablet sales in general at falling and 2-in-1 sales have been rising. The SP is not the only device in it's category....
i doubt it. There's no magic when it comes to cooling, and the most efficient way to do it's always using a fan. To achieve the same temperature as the air-cooled solution, you will need tons of copper, which makes it both heavier and hotter to touch. If someone said they build a "super cool and light system without fan", that basically means the chip won't have much heat to begin with, and usually lower performance. It's basically impossible to put a higher-performance chip without some drawbacks.
Back to 7300U, even most of the chip won't as hot as the i7-U, it will not be as low as 4.5W as well. Intel offers what's called "configurable TDP-Down" to make it runs @7.5W, which is the highest TDP that core m3 can achieved (yes, the TDP of 4.5W doesn't mean everything).
Back to 2016, where there are many notebooks that went "thinner" than the new MacBook, but using a full-power i5/i7 instead the core m. This truly put the MacBook in shame on paper, but all of them will definitely suffered from heavy throttling when you push these machines into some stressful situations.
So back to the topic, to build a MacBook which equipped with a i5/i7 ULV, is either will equipped with a fan, or lowering the TDP, and I will suspect the new Surface Pro did the same.
The Surface Pro have some disadvantages over a notebook and tablet, but has it list of advantages too. If customer satisfaction is ahead of iPads, then the Surafce Pro can't be a bad product, as you think.
https://www.macrumors.com/2017/04/06/microsoft-surface-beats-ipad-j-d-power/
The first analogy was perfect; the surface is truly the el-camino of computers, it isn't a good tablet (for many reasons) and real laptops stomp them senseless. Like the Zune and win-phone they will sell a few to the fanboys but to gain real market you have to be good at something. Like the el camino the surface is a poorly conceived chimera that isn't good at anything.
https://www.macrumors.com/2017/04/06/microsoft-surface-beats-ipad-j-d-power/
So I suppose it has to be good at something, don't you think?
Same as the Surface Pro. MS made a device that has limitations compared to a notebook or tablet, but it has advantages too. They took the 2-in-1 concept to another level, even when companies like Apple say it wasn't possible (toaster/fridge), and looks like the results are very positive.
Im sorry but it isn't a very good tablet (because it is using laptop processors and OS) and on the other hand it is a piss poor laptop. Its somewhere in between and serves neither function well. (just like an el camino)
I'd love to see a iOS based laptop with A11 chip with a similar design but a little lighter - like 2.5 pounds.
IMO, compared it to El Camino is not right at all. I posted before that a comparison to a Porsche / Mercedes Benz AMG SUV is more real. These vehicles are awful sports cars, but still great automobiles. Same as the SP4. It may not be the best tablet or notebook, but it's a great device.
When you say 'impressive looking', do you mean that figuratively? As much as I love the "high design" of my Apple gear, it's how it works that makes the difference for me, looks are really secondary.
So, if it's running Windows, I probably won't find it appealing. Not for my everyday computing/internet/comms anyway. Apple's ecosystem works great for me. And it is here I will stay unless something seriously changes.
That said, Apple must lead or at least keep up, so I do feel confident I won't be buying new but already-obsolete gear from them anytime soon.
I'm about to replace a 7.5 year old iMac that is still very functional for all but my pro/roduction-level apps. How many people can claim that about a Windows-based system?
That TCO alone is a big deal...