PSA: Don't install iOS 11 beta on your main iPhone unless you hate yourself

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Comments

  • Reply 41 of 66
    razormaidrazormaid Posts: 299member
    melgross said:

    razormaid said:
    xgman said:
    Looks like a bunch of folks are having a nightmare with the first beta for High Sierra too. I've noticed that Apple is recently handing public beta testers software that really could be described as "alpha" rather than beta and far less stable than the betas of past years. Bugs are expected but it does seem to be getting worse. And one might ask why not just try to improve what has taken them so long to get stable versions of what is already out there? It sometimes seems they just go back to the drawing board .. well, just because they can..
    really??  Like what?  Explain what is NOT working so I can go do it, then write how it IS working. Heresay posts of non verifiable statements is like pulling a girls pigtails on the playground then running so no one saw who did it. 

    Give me the link to these “so called problems”, so I can go check it out because there’s been nothing on our end and we are working in the real world not looking for obsure things to squawk about. 

    Your entire post is based on heresay. Let’s go prove them wrong together shall we? <GRIN> 
    Yes, just like your post is based on heresay. Why should we trust what you say? Just because you're on the other side of the argument? Sorry, not a good enough reason. You could be having problems you don't even know about - yet. I didn't find some problems over the betas until I had been running them for days, or weeks.
    No!!  Hearsay is what that guy posted. You know when he said “I heard.....”. That’s the heresay part. He himself probably isn’t even running it that’s even worse heresay. 

    Mine isnt hearsay according to English grammar. In fact I would be considered “first person” in that scenario. I AM running it. I AM not having issues. There’s no hearsay I am the one reporting first hand (that’s the first person part). Just to clarify the difference for you. 

    Now if I said “I heard it was running flawlessly..” now that would be hearsay. See the difference?  <GRIN> 

    the editorial presented one sided view “doom in a box” I’m just saying there’s another view and hopefully others will back me up that things are ok. 

    I agree it was risky to make the assumption that no one writes when there’s good news but history has shown us that 80% individuals will take the time to complain or write a negative response on Amazon than the people who write a good one. I know it’s not right but when people are happy they move on - life’s short. But when something piss*s you off... well then it’s time to write!  And I did. I wrote that this view was not the view of many of us who do t write usually. 

    Lets see some posts of people who normally don’t take the time to stand up and say “this editorial is not what I have experienced so far”. Since the person who wrote it won’t add that, let’s add that for him by making a statement to the contrary. 

    And if you do have issues, don’t do like the one guy on here and say “yeah it’s buggy”. Really?  No examples?Just say that and depart?  Just “yeah it’s crap..” then drop the mic?  If you found something so fierce you have to say something like that, state what you found or consider “buggy”. Because if it’s the battery life.. well you see what I’m saying?  Back up the statement with examples. Prove your statement. What he considered buggy may not be anything to the rest if us. Example:  my list of posts from the forum. I almost fell asleep typing them out. LOL 
  • Reply 42 of 66
    alphafoxalphafox Posts: 132member
    working fine for me on my 7 plus
  • Reply 43 of 66
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 6,858administrator
    razormaid said:
     Example:  my list of posts from the forum. I almost fell asleep typing them out. LOL 
     From your boring list, a boot-loop for an AT&T phone is a deal-breaker, if you're on AT&T and can't make a call. If you're not, then it doesn't matter.

    I'm really not sure what you're going for, here. We're aware that you're having a good time. However, like you said, your filter for "buggy" isn't the same as everybody else's. Since the article was posted, with about two hours of solid use on the iPhone 7 Plus, I've had four application crashes to the home screen, including a PDF reader. One of my kid's car parking games crashes constantly, with some problem with the ads that its displaying.

    Neither device are my main mover, so it doesn't bother me so much. But, it bothered me enough to file a report about it.

    All of the apps are rock solid on iOS 10. Do you mind app crashes with a potential loss of data associated with it? If you don't mind, then you won't find it buggy.

    If you do, then you will. It is indisputable that the iOS 11 and High Sierra betas crash -- and that's not super conducive to a good working environment.

    Let me know how your survey goes, but realize that something like "crash city" is equally as useful as "I've got no problems" for a count. 

    The advice stands. If you're relying on the hardware for a production environment, listen to Apple, the people who made the betas, and don't install them.
    edited June 2017 netmage
  • Reply 44 of 66
    AppleZuluAppleZulu Posts: 1,989member
    AppleZulu said:
    razormaid said:
    This is BS. I have it running on my 2016 Touch Bar laptop, 2011 17” laptop, 2 2011 iMacs, 3 iPads (mini, large pro and smaller pro), 2 iPhone 7+, TV4 and 2 Watches series 2.

    We have not encountered anything yet. In fact I was just talking to my business partner saying “they must have had this done & sitting around waiting for awhile because I don’t recall a “beta 1” feeling and running so “done” feeling across so many platforms. 

    TV is the star here by the way. Really nice changes to the interface. Much better. Much easier. 

    The only thing i can I can think of as to why someone MIGHT run into problems - if any - would be if they did a “rape & scrape” (that’s what we call reformatting a device or computer) and installing from scratch. I don’t know why someone would do that but since we DONT do that, all I can say is running it like an update resulting in a smooth running cross platform update. 
    It's not BS. The whole point of beta testing is that they know the software isn't ready for primetime. There will be bugs and crashes. Beta testers are the guinea pigs willing to wander into the landmines just to find them. Your bizarre suggestion that there's no reason to expect that anyone would run into problems is way off base. 

    I hope the army doesn't actually use guinea pigs to locate landmines.  I guess it's better than dogs, but still it's cruel.
    I probably should have warned you: that mixed metaphor was in beta.
    roundaboutnow
  • Reply 45 of 66
    AppleZuluAppleZulu Posts: 1,989member
    razormaid said:
    razormaid said:
    This is BS. I have it running on my 2016 Touch Bar laptop, 2011 17” laptop, 2 2011 iMacs, 3 iPads (mini, large pro and smaller pro), 2 iPhone 7+, TV4 and 2 Watches series 2.

    We have not encountered anything yet. In fact I was just talking to my business partner saying “they must have had this done & sitting around waiting for awhile because I don’t recall a “beta 1” feeling and running so “done” feeling across so many platforms. 

    TV is the star here by the way. Really nice changes to the interface. Much better. Much easier. 

    The only thing i can I can think of as to why someone MIGHT run into problems - if any - would be if they did a “rape & scrape” (that’s what we call reformatting a device or computer) and installing from scratch. I don’t know why someone would do that but since we DONT do that, all I can say is running it like an update resulting in a smooth running cross platform update. 
    I'm glad you're having an easy time. However... We've got multiple staffers with multiple devices on the beta, with none but the 2015 (now) Nuked and Paved, and everybody is running into crashes. The 2015? The OS mangled the EFI partition, utterly and completely.

    I've got it on two macs, an iPad Pro, and two iPhones. The Apple TV is later today. All told, I think we've got it on 15+ devices across the entire staff. We might just be beating on it a bit harder to tell you guys about it.

    Reiterating the point: if you use your machines to make money, or they are your only machine, install anybody's beta software at your own peril.
    Let me clarify:  mycomment of “this is BS” was in reference to the “scare people to death” tone of the article. God, after reading your statement I would be terrified!  Fortunately I didn’t read that first, neither did the rest of my team of 28 testers. 

    I have not even had one crash, hang or anything that I would normally get and as a record company we are using some pretty memory intensive, GPU taxing software to record, remix and master. Not to mention all the contract degotiations overseas to get permission and we”re using FaceTime which is also normally buggy. I haven’t had a drop call yet. Granted we’re just going along with business as usual on our devices and computers. We’re not trying to find things that don’t work, maybe you are, but so far we’ve seriously not encountered anything at all. 

    I just think you disgarded all the people like us who had not encountered anything, leaving a one sided view of “the sky is falling” that I’m sure ABC, CBS, CNN and GOOGLE news will no doubt be featuring your article - not my comments. 

    We had actual issues with IOS 9 and IOS 10 out of the box. I mention that to prove stuff CAN happen. I’m just not finding them on IOS 11, macOS 13, TV 11 or Watch 4. (Although I thought the watch had a bug not reporting my work out correctly this morning turns out I was lazy and it caught me!  LOL)

    “This is is a beta” as people are pointing out on here and more than that, this is the FIRST beta of a new cycle so yes people should be careful I’m not saying that. I just think it’s important people don’t think this is “doom in a box” waiting to blow up their world. Write a balanced viewpoint. 

    I think youre having MORE issues trying to “go back”. If you take out the part if the article on how to go back to a previous version and the frustration THAT entailed for you in that process,  I think it would be less of an article. More than half has to do with that. 

    At leadt admend it to say “where as many have encountered NO problems whatsoever - that is not the case here with us...” then people can pause and decide which side of THAT coin would they like. That would be more balanced approach that “the sky is falling”. 
    I read the headline of this editorial as an attempt at some humor, not hysteria. As for its content, it seems about as hysterical as telling users not to do OS upgrades without backing up their data first. Or telling users not to do anything mission-critical without backing up their data. This is not hysteria or apple-bashing. It doesn't matter whose OS you're running. Loading a beta on a primary-use device is risky behavior. 

    It's great that you're seeing no problems anywhere with the beta. Will you promise us this? If you're actually swinging on a trapeze without a net and running these betas on primary-use machines that are critical to your business, will you write back and let us know if you actually do have a crash and lose a bunch of contracts or obliterate somebody's perfect take in the studio? I still wouldn't see it as Apple-bashing, but it might offer a lesson about hubris.
    nhughesarlomedia
  • Reply 46 of 66
    stukestuke Posts: 122member
    Duh.  Let Apple test it's software, the right way, the Steve Jobs quality way.  All I can say is what did you expect?
  • Reply 47 of 66
    razormaid said:
    This is BS. I have it running on my 2016 Touch Bar laptop, 2011 17” laptop, 2 2011 iMacs, 3 iPads (mini, large pro and smaller pro), 2 iPhone 7+, TV4 and 2 Watches series 2.

    We have not encountered anything yet. In fact I was just talking to my business partner saying “they must have had this done & sitting around waiting for awhile because I don’t recall a “beta 1” feeling and running so “done” feeling across so many platforms. 

    TV is the star here by the way. Really nice changes to the interface. Much better. Much easier. 

    The only thing i can I can think of as to why someone MIGHT run into problems - if any - would be if they did a “rape & scrape” (that’s what we call reformatting a device or computer) and installing from scratch. I don’t know why someone would do that but since we DONT do that, all I can say is running it like an update resulting in a smooth running cross platform update. 
    Dude, "rape and scrape"? Really? It's 2017, do the world a favour and come up with a phrase that doesn't normal sexual violence.
    edited June 2017 anomenetmage
  • Reply 48 of 66
    dewmedewme Posts: 5,332member
    I believe that most software developers, testers, and techno enthusiasts are well aware of the risks of running beta software on business critical systems so I'm surprised at the harshness of some of the comments here. While this topic may not warrant being a "PSA" with dire sounding consequences, I do appreciate the cleverness of the editorial title and its obvious ability to capture everyone's attention. It worked! Since the content is based on very rational logic and common sense - no harm, no foul. The reality is that everyone has their own level of risk tolerance and everyone has experienced widely different outcomes after engaging in risky behaviors that influences their future risk taking activities. I've had mixed results running beta software but I fully understand that if I end up with a smoldering brick of silicon and plastic - it's all on me. That risk alone is usually enough to keep me from risking critical assets or other people's money to beta software. But for secondary, tertiary, and systems for which I have a very high level of confidence that I can recover from the worst-case scenarios, I'm always compelled to juggle the chainsaws and run the beta on non critical assets and follow the advice of this editorial.  

    This round of chainsaw juggling has been mixed for me. No real problems at all running iOS 11 on iPad Air, iPad Pro 12.9, and iPod Touch 6G other than a few actions being unresponsive or slow to respond on occasion. But macOS High Sierra Beta 1 did brutally crash one of the 3 Macs I tried it on, a late 2012 iMac 27 (3.4 GHz i7, 32 GB, 3 TB Fusion).  Everything was okay until I also installed the latest macOS Server Beta. The machine started spewing disk identity messages and upon reboot it presented a white screen with a hashed circle. The only thing that allowed me to recover the machine was a Time Machine backup snapshot that High Sierra had, for reasons unknown to me, created on the primary disk partition rather than my normal Time Machine backup disk. Recovery mode would not restore from the latest pre-High Sierra Time Machine backup from my Time Machine disk but it did restore from the unexpected High Sierra backup that it created prior to the Server installation that Recovery mode found on the primary disk volume. The only major lingering issue since then is that a FireWire disk occasionally drops off line and I get a bunch of notifications. So for the time being my most anticipated new software release from Apple is Beta 2 of High Sierra. As betas go, it's not nearly as bad as prior macOS versions that included major new features like Apple Music and Photos. While I was able to recover this time, I still believe the advice presented by the Editor is sound and pragmatic. If I needed to pay to recover my iMac I'd have nobody to blame other than myself.




    edited June 2017
  • Reply 49 of 66
    rs1919rs1919 Posts: 13member
    This editorial is sensationalist drivel and given a broad assessment based on a limited sample size.  Now to be clear, anytime you download a beta, expect problems, especially version 1.  If you read the release documentation it outlines some of the known issues that exist in the build and there are bound to be many more.  With that said, having downloaded the Betas for Mac OS High Sierra (on two computers), iOS 11 on iPad Pro and iPhone 7, and Watch OS 4; so far my personal experience has been far better than previous v1 betas of iOS, MacOS, and WatchOS.  On my phone, I have had some issues where the app crashes and some other bugs, but that's to be expected of a Beta.  Some issues with sluggishness on my older computer (again, if you're downloading a beta, this should surprise you).  Additionally, if you are running on it on an older device, you're potentially more likely to run into issues.  I assume most devs at Apple are primarily using newer devices and testing on that, so more unexpected bugs very well may show up on older devices.  

    To be clear, anytime you download a beta, realize and know that things can go very wrong and cause a lot of frustration and time to fix.  The headlines and editorial imply the iOS 11 is far worse than previous betas and not usable at all.  In my experience it's been far better.  Of course if you look at boards you're going to see people posting about various problems, some major, but that doesn't prove or mean there's a wide spread problem... again, it's a beta, if you aren't anticipating issues, you should stay away.
  • Reply 50 of 66
    Absolutely, if you aren't committed to dealing with problems and filing detailed, useful bug reports save yourself the trouble of installing the beta software. Especially the pre-public beta stuff. My experience has been very positive, but yours could be horrible. There's an element of uncertainty.

    I have it running on my iMac, iPhone 7+ and iPad Pro and the issues I'm experiencing are pretty minor. A few iOS apps crash from time to time, but usually recover and the OS itself has been remarkably stable for a first beta. The worst effect, which happens in every beta, is reduced battery life. I've ended the days since installation at about 40%, where it would normally be 60% - 65%. That always settles down once we get to the final release though, so no worries.

    On macOS, I've seen no crashes, but I can see in my crash logs that I'm getting about 8-10 processes a day crashing. They're recovering automatically though, I haven't had to reboot or anything.

    tvOS 11 gave me a little scare at first, but I sorted it out and it's running fine. A few of the apps have an odd issue here or there, but nothing that is stopping me from using them.


  • Reply 51 of 66
    But the whole point of a public beta is for the public to test it. Not to test it on your seventh other phone you use for whatever.  But to test it in the field, in action by people using it who they'd normally use it. I know what I'm getting in to with the beta. If you don't. You're an idiot. 
  • Reply 52 of 66
    anomeanome Posts: 1,533member
    I'm travelling, so I can't really install iOS 11 on my test phone (my old IPhone 6), so I guess I'll wait. I'm amazed at the people who think it foolish to remind others not to install beta software unless you're willing to live with typical beta issues. There are people out there who see "beta" as meaning "I get it early", who will install it, and maybe come to rely on it when it suddenly, and without explanation, stops working.

    If nothing else, there are apps that will stop working with any new version of iOS, and there won't be an update until the developers have had a chance to work with the betas themselves, and fix the issues. Some of them won't be fixed until well after the actual release of iOS 11.

    basocally, of you've had absolutely no problems with iOS 11 beta, you've been lucky so far. Expecting everyone to be so lucky is foolish. And saying "I know what I'm doing" is tempting fate.
    netmage
  • Reply 53 of 66
    riverkoriverko Posts: 222member
    well, let's face it - most people totally ignore the fact that early beta version can really suck at some point. they like to forget that they had this bad experience before. so i think it is good to remind them what can happen... even if i'm sure as public beta tester i'll get bit different (more stable) version, it is still useful to get warned...
  • Reply 54 of 66
    teknishn said:
    Really?!?!  I'm a long time tester, and I've seen some bad builds, but these are pretty darn good.  I have iOS 11 running on my iPad Pro and my iPhone7+.  No deal breaking issues, batteries on both are fine, no system crashes.  I did have the UI on my 7+ crash while watching a youtube video.  Those are minor and infrequent... and the UI comes right back rapidly.  I'm really enjoying it on my iPad, what a massive upgrade.

    I also have High Sierra running on my 5k 27" iMac and MBP w/Touchbar.  No deal breakers in either case here as well.

    Of course there are bugs, but I haven't run into any deal breakers on any of my devices in since yesterday morning.  The deal breakers have become fewer and farther between in recent years.  Still, that being said, I'm a seasoned tester and developer.  I'm willing to put up with so bugs to help the cause (reporting), and I really enjoy all the new features.  I won't put the betas on my kids or wife's gear, and I don't recommend it to anyone else other than experienced like minded friends that are in my line of work.

    If anyone is curious to try betas out, definitely wait and only install the 'public' betas.  They always run more stable and they aren't as bleeding edge as the developer builds.

    I agree with you, I have iOS 11 on my 7+ and aside from UI glitches/not always being smooth, it’s extremely stable.
  • Reply 55 of 66
    bestkeptsecretbestkeptsecret Posts: 4,265member

    Why are people having such a problem with good advice? It may be obvious to some, it may be something that never affected some. But for the many that install these on their primary devices without thinking it through, it is very sound advice.

    No FUD, no anti-Apple sentiment at all. Just a good piece of advice from someone who is widely read in the Apple-sphere.

    arlomediadysamoriaMacPronhughesnetmageanome
  • Reply 56 of 66
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,718member


    Things are a little better on the Mac. There, you could install macOS 10.13 High Sierra to a partition, and keep your regular macOS 10.12 Sierra install separate and buttery smooth. If you know how to do that (and you have a developer account required for the first beta), have fun playing around.

    You'd better put it on a partition, too. We're using a 2015 MacBook Pro to test it out, and we had to pull the drive and format it in an external enclosure on a machine without the beta installed to recover the drive after a particularly nasty crash. For now, that machine is fine, but we're keeping a wary eye on it.


    Regarding macOS High Sierra - comment indented for upcoming public beta testers ... To heck with a partition!   Far better to simply run a clone of your boot drive on an external SSD over Thunderbolt or even USB3 / c and boot to that after installation. That way you can install and select the APFS format too.  BTW if you miss that option, it's easy to do in the excitement of the moment ;)  I did once, you can always boot into the 10.13 Recovery partition and use the new Disk Utilities to convert the HFS+ to APFS on the boot volume in a non-destructive way to preserve your clone of the Mac's 10.12 boot drive.

    Nice thing about this is  you get to test all your applications and extension (in my case 99% success, NOT ONE CRASH on either a new Mac Pro or a 2010 MBP i7 15" fitted with a 500 GB SSD  ... in that case no external needed as I didn't care about its data.  Of course there were a tiny few obvious candidates that refused to run that relied on HFS+ such as SoftRAID and a couple of things like Little Snitch.  Note: The amazing Mike Bombich already had a 10.13 friendly Carbon Copy Cloner beta working the night of the the High Sierra release! Just Wow, and thank you Mike as always.  
    edited June 2017
  • Reply 57 of 66
    dysamoriadysamoria Posts: 3,430member
    We're talking about the beta of the bleeding edge release, but I'd like Apple to actually fix the bugs they introduced with iOS 7 that they've so far refused to fix in FOUR major releases! They shouldn't be marketing iOS 11 without stomping out all of iOS 7's bugs! Who knows which of the new bugs people find in ios 11 beta will be with us for the next four major releases. This has got to STOP!

    If anyone cares:

    • Safari text selection and editing in text edit fields (selection highlights are broken, selection breaks if you hit the edges of the text box while selecting, cannot scroll with selection drag, etc). They seem to have stopped fixing finger-based selection because of adding in 3D Touch and trackpad selection, which is idiotic to do because those are more advanced behaviors and have their own issues (such as the trackpad/3D Touch cursor getting stuck on the line it starts on, causing the user to exit and re-enter this mode to get it to work). Happens in text edit fields in every website. With iOS 10.x, this behavior has spread to the Mail app (preview pane).

    • Autocorrect spontaneously breaks in Safari text edit fields (most of my typos on here are a result of this). Seen in AI, Facebook, KVR, etc. Suddenly it just stops working. Especially notable on new lines on specific sites like AI and Apple's own websites. Right this moment, my iPad is refusing to autocorrect ios to iOS, but only in this text box right now.

    • Safari tab previews show out of date images (thought iOS 10 fixed it; just saw it happen again two days ago on current version). I've seen this happen to app switching/multitasking app preview images too.

    • Parts of iOS audio system stop working on speaker output (but keep working on headphone output) because of some bug in the mixer when changing outputs. For example: Siri will not make an audible ding sound or audibly ask me "What can i help you with?" when calling up Siri, but all other functions are normal. Some users can get this to correct itself by plugging in and unplugging headphones repeatedly, but this isn't working for me.

    • First touch on text to enter edit mode ignores the behaviors that place the cursor while already in edit mode (want to tap on the end of that word and start typing? Too bad because your first tap will just put the cursor right there inside the word).

    Need i continue? How about some bugs new to ios 9 that are still in ios 10? For example: i cannot NOT type a capital letter at beginnings of sentences with the Smart Keyboard (unless running into the autocorrect bugs in Safari that break autocorrect), because ios will force the letter to be capital whether i want it or not. The on-screen keyboard allows me to do what i want (especially necessary when editing a sentence or needing to record case-sensitive information into a spreadsheet).
    edited June 2017
  • Reply 58 of 66
    Well I have been running iOS11 since it’s beta release on my iPhone 6s Plus and have had NO crashes or major problems rendering my iPhone useless! Sure there are bugs but that is to be expected running any beta of software. For me, just a few icons for system controls don’t work properly and some apps can act strangely. When I decide to test any beta I’m aware of the risks and am willing to accept them! As is iOS11 is a gem! I like it very much and am excited about all the new features. This will make for a fun summer testing the betas! 
  • Reply 59 of 66
    jbdragonjbdragon Posts: 2,305member
    It really is pretty dumb to run Beta software on your Primary device!!! Especially one this early. I would at least wait for the Public release beta. If you have a older iPhone or iPad, try it on that. If anything goes wrong, it's not a big deal. This is all about testing the OS, finding the Bugs and reporting them to Apple. Things may stop working, or not work how they should. You may get a lot of crashes. 32-bit app support is dropped, are you still using some of them currently? I so much would like to try the new OS. I say the same thing every year, but I resist and wait it out. Then I get to install and try out the finished product. Not some buggy thing for months. So it's a better experience overall I think. You're better off waiting.
  • Reply 60 of 66
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member
    razormaid said:
    melgross said:

    razormaid said:
    xgman said:
    Looks like a bunch of folks are having a nightmare with the first beta for High Sierra too. I've noticed that Apple is recently handing public beta testers software that really could be described as "alpha" rather than beta and far less stable than the betas of past years. Bugs are expected but it does seem to be getting worse. And one might ask why not just try to improve what has taken them so long to get stable versions of what is already out there? It sometimes seems they just go back to the drawing board .. well, just because they can..
    really??  Like what?  Explain what is NOT working so I can go do it, then write how it IS working. Heresay posts of non verifiable statements is like pulling a girls pigtails on the playground then running so no one saw who did it. 

    Give me the link to these “so called problems”, so I can go check it out because there’s been nothing on our end and we are working in the real world not looking for obsure things to squawk about. 

    Your entire post is based on heresay. Let’s go prove them wrong together shall we? <GRIN> 
    Yes, just like your post is based on heresay. Why should we trust what you say? Just because you're on the other side of the argument? Sorry, not a good enough reason. You could be having problems you don't even know about - yet. I didn't find some problems over the betas until I had been running them for days, or weeks.
    No!!  Hearsay is what that guy posted. You know when he said “I heard.....”. That’s the heresay part. He himself probably isn’t even running it that’s even worse heresay. 

    Mine isnt hearsay according to English grammar. In fact I would be considered “first person” in that scenario. I AM running it. I AM not having issues. There’s no hearsay I am the one reporting first hand (that’s the first person part). Just to clarify the difference for you. 

    Now if I said “I heard it was running flawlessly..” now that would be hearsay. See the difference?  <GRIN> 

    the editorial presented one sided view “doom in a box” I’m just saying there’s another view and hopefully others will back me up that things are ok. 

    I agree it was risky to make the assumption that no one writes when there’s good news but history has shown us that 80% individuals will take the time to complain or write a negative response on Amazon than the people who write a good one. I know it’s not right but when people are happy they move on - life’s short. But when something piss*s you off... well then it’s time to write!  And I did. I wrote that this view was not the view of many of us who do t write usually. 

    Lets see some posts of people who normally don’t take the time to stand up and say “this editorial is not what I have experienced so far”. Since the person who wrote it won’t add that, let’s add that for him by making a statement to the contrary. 

    And if you do have issues, don’t do like the one guy on here and say “yeah it’s buggy”. Really?  No examples?Just say that and depart?  Just “yeah it’s crap..” then drop the mic?  If you found something so fierce you have to say something like that, state what you found or consider “buggy”. Because if it’s the battery life.. well you see what I’m saying?  Back up the statement with examples. Prove your statement. What he considered buggy may not be anything to the rest if us. Example:  my list of posts from the forum. I almost fell asleep typing them out. LOL 
    No, it's hearsay, because we only have your word for it. You offer no proof. That's hearsay. If I quote your post, even in this thread, to someone else, it's just your word, and so it's hearsay.

    80% huh? And that's from a validated study, of course, you're not just, oh, let's say, just for fun, making it up?
    edited June 2017
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