Rumor: Apple intends to replace Touch ID fingerprint scanner with advanced facial recognit...

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in iPhone
Piggybacking on an earlier report claiming that "iPhone 8" will not feature a fingerprint scanner embedded in its OLED display, another report now says that Apple intends to introduce advanced facial recognition technology that will replace the Touch ID fingerprint scanner.




Citing a person familiar with Apple's future product plans, Bloomberg reported on Monday that Apple's new face recognizing technology can authenticate a user within a few hundred milliseconds. It also said that the system is capable of recognizing a person even if the iPhone is laying flat on a table, not held in front of the user's face.

However, while Apple apparently intends for the technology to replace Touch ID, author Mark Gurman said "the feature is still being tested and may not appear with the new device."

Apple's upcoming system is said to be more secure than Touch ID, which could enable Apple to ditch the fingerprint sensor entirely. In addition to unlocking and providing access to iPhones, iPads and new MacBook Pros, Touch ID is also used to authorize Apple Pay transactions.

Monday's report acknowledged "challenges" in embedding a fingerprint sensor into the display of the so-called "iPhone 8," but did not say whether or not Apple would continue to offer Touch ID in this year's anticipated flagship model. A separate report from earlier Monday cast doubt on whether Apple will be able to embed Touch ID into the "iPhone 8" OLED display.




Well-connected analyst Ming-Chi Kuo of KGI Securities issued a note to investors on Monday, saying "technical challenges" have prevented Apple from embedding a fingerprint sensor into the screen.

Kuo did not suggest whether Apple would use facial recognition to replace Touch ID this year, or if Apple would simply move the fingerprint sensor to the back of the device, as some leaks have suggested may happen. And with Bloomberg's uncertainty as to whether the biometric facial recognition capabilities will be available this year, it remains unclear what, exactly, Apple has in the works for this fall.

Monday's report also said that Apple is testing dedicated chips for both artificial intelligence processing and displays with higher frame rates. Apple introduced an advanced 120Hz ProMotion display with its latest iPad Pros, but it's unclear whether such capabilities will make it to the iPhone lineup as soon as this year.

Whether or not it's advanced enough to replace Touch ID, this year's "iPhone 8" is expected to feature a forward facing 3D camera array that will allow for unique facial recognition capabilities that are expected to integrate with Apple's ARKit tools for augmented reality apps. Simpler versions of such capabilities are already popular through Snapchat filters.

The "iPhone 8" is expected to boast a complete redesign of the handset with an 5.2-inch edge-to-edge OLED display with minimal bezels. The device is also expected to feature both fast charging via Lightning and contact-based wireless charging.

The "iPhone 8" is rumored to have a premium price and debut in limited quantities this fall. It is expected to be flanked by "iPhone 7s" models sized at 4.7 and 5.5 inches, with the same design as last year's iPhone 7.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 91
    bdkennedy1002bdkennedy1002 Posts: 543member
    I'll be upgrading to the 7S
    ksec
  • Reply 2 of 91
    rob53rob53 Posts: 3,251member
    I can't see facial recognition working consistently for very many people. I understand how it works but people wear sunglasses and other things that could affect the geometry of the face. I also can't see people holding their phone up to their face and hoping everything works. I thought Samsung's attempt at facial recognition was broken by a simple xerox of the users face. I hope Apple takes their time before they change so they make sure it works all the time and isn't susceptible to even advanced attempts at faking a face to get access. I know people say they're faked fingerprints but they're not as easy as it sounds.
    r00fus1dysamoriacali
  • Reply 3 of 91
    davidmalcolmdavidmalcolm Posts: 384member
    They could do a two camera solution that would sense depth to get around the Xerox thing. Though in this case if anyone wants to unlock your phone they just have told hold it to your face. I kind of wonder if this is going to enable a lot more law enforcement types to get around bugging Apple to unlock a phone simply by having the person have to stand in front of it.
    Scot1dysamoria
  • Reply 4 of 91
    hawaiianshirtguyhawaiianshirtguy Posts: 50member
    davidmalcolm said:
    They could do a two camera solution that would sense depth to get around the Xerox thing. Though in this case if anyone wants to unlock your phone they just have told hold it to your face. I kind of wonder if this is going to enable a lot more law enforcement types to get around bugging Apple to unlock a phone simply by having the person have to stand in front of it.

    I was about to make the same comment about a ne'er do well simply holding your own phone in front of your face. At least with the fingerprint sensor you can attempt to physically resist. Maybe you can register a "panic face". If the phone detects it, it will then require a passcode. Or maybe it can detect you shaking your head. 
    Scot1baconstangksec
  • Reply 5 of 91
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,668member
    If it could work laying flat, how would you tell the phone you want it to unlock? Blinking three times? In the dark? Other challenging situations. With no activation signal, the phone would have to be always aware of you. That might put a strain on the battery.
    netmagedysamoriabshankdouglas bailey
  • Reply 6 of 91
    anton zuykovanton zuykov Posts: 1,056member
    Apple will not "replace" Touch ID with facial recognition.
    That is just virtually not possible, due to it being prone to problems, the touch id lacks.
    At the worst case, they might ADD it to the existing touch id tech, but replacing it would just be like shooting your own arm, because sleeves of your shirt need holes for ventilation.
    I mean, come on, how would you use facial recognition in the darkness? IR diodes? Ok, fine, but you would have to turn your phone toward your face precisely, so that the camera array can "see" your face. That is real convenient! What happens when your phone has happened to register someone else's face (by accident). Would it consider it to be false attempt or would it just ignore it?
    There is just too many ways this could go wrong, while offering no discernible benefit over the existing touch ID auth tech.
    edited July 2017 macplusplustmaywaverboyr00fus1
  • Reply 7 of 91
    macplusplusmacplusplus Posts: 2,112member
    Fingerprints are unique, even among twins. It is crazy to think that Apple will ditch such a unique feature and replace it with the face easily copiable. The face is not unique. TouchID works with body electricity, but the face can be easily recognized with a mask, what is the body electricity of the face, an aura or something? Reminds me of the '60s Kirlian photography pseudoscience...

    This is just the imagination of a nasty office worker photocopying his butt gone wild...
    edited July 2017
  • Reply 8 of 91
    robjnrobjn Posts: 283member
    It can't practically replace TouchID.

    Imagine holding your phone down to the reader to pay for your Tube journey and having to lean over and push your face down their over the reader!

    Facual recognition would be a welcome edition, especially for some accessibility situations and perhaps for unlocking your phone, but it would be impractical for Apple Pay.

    if TouchID is not under the display or on the back it must be on a side button (as per Patent filing). In my opinion this is the ideal place for it.
    yojimbo007igorsky
  • Reply 9 of 91
    yojimbo007yojimbo007 Posts: 1,165member
    rob53 said:
    I can't see facial recognition working consistently for very many people. I understand how it works but people wear sunglasses and other things that could affect the geometry of the face. I also can't see people holding their phone up to their face and hoping everything works. I thought Samsung's attempt at facial recognition was broken by a simple xerox of the users face. I hope Apple takes their time before they change so they make sure it works all the time and isn't susceptible to even advanced attempts at faking a face to get access. I know people say they're faked fingerprints but they're not as easy as it sounds.
    3d depth information on facial patterns and proprtions solves the probkem of 2d pic trick.
    StrangeDaysnetmage
  • Reply 10 of 91
    yojimbo007yojimbo007 Posts: 1,165member
    At the end of the day all these controversies ( rumor, truth or BS ) create dialogue about the iPhone and bring attention to it. That is a good thing. The truth will be unveiled in 3 months.. in the meanwhile the buzz stays alive.
    lkruppjony0
  • Reply 11 of 91
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,035member
    Fingerprints are unique, even among twins. It is crazy to think that Apple will ditch such a unique feature and replace it with the face easily copiable. The face is not unique. TouchID works with body electricity, but the face can be easily recognized with a mask, what is the body electricity of the face, an aura or something? Reminds me of the '60s Kirlian photography pseudoscience…
    1) I agree that the facial recognition for security rumour seems silly.

    2) While Touch ID has been excellent, there are people that can't use the feature.

    3) We can't actually prove that all fingerprints are unique. There is a finite number of pattern combinations plus the inherent issue with biometrics that looks for a "within a margin of error" match, which is not something that's tolerated with passwords. There's also been plenty of arrests and convictions from false fingerprint matches over the decades. DNA helped sort out a lot of false convictions, but I'll let Adam tell you more about it.



    edited July 2017 netmage
  • Reply 12 of 91
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member
    Ugh! This article is even more annoying than the last.
    lkruppcalibaconstang
  • Reply 13 of 91
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,877member
    rob53 said:
    I can't see facial recognition working consistently for very many people. I understand how it works but people wear sunglasses and other things that could affect the geometry of the face. I also can't see people holding their phone up to their face and hoping everything works. I thought Samsung's attempt at facial recognition was broken by a simple xerox of the users face. I hope Apple takes their time before they change so they make sure it works all the time and isn't susceptible to even advanced attempts at faking a face to get access. I know people say they're faked fingerprints but they're not as easy as it sounds.
    1) The rumor in the article clearly states one would not have to hold the device up to their face.

    2) You can be certain that whatever Apple implements it will be much more secure than Samsung's bunk implementations have been. 
    netmagecaliwilliamlondon
  • Reply 14 of 91
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,877member
    avon b7 said:
    If it could work laying flat, how would you tell the phone you want it to unlock? Blinking three times? In the dark? Other challenging situations. With no activation signal, the phone would have to be always aware of you. That might put a strain on the battery.
    And it might run on fairy dust. Seriously, if this becomes a thing, Apple will have thought these problems through. Personally I'd expect youd still trigger it via some sort of UI event. Pick up, it starts scanning, press the virtual home button to unlock, etc.
    chaickaradarthekatwilliamlondon
  • Reply 15 of 91
    macplusplusmacplusplus Posts: 2,112member
    Soli said:
    Fingerprints are unique, even among twins. It is crazy to think that Apple will ditch such a unique feature and replace it with the face easily copiable. The face is not unique. TouchID works with body electricity, but the face can be easily recognized with a mask, what is the body electricity of the face, an aura or something? Reminds me of the '60s Kirlian photography pseudoscience…
    1) I agree that the facial recognition for security rumour seems silly.

    2) While Touch ID has been excellent, there are people that can't use the feature.

    3) We can't actually prove that all fingerprints are unique. There is a finite number of pattern combinations plus the inherent issue with biometrics that looks for a "within a margin of error" match, which is not something that's tolerated with passwords. There's also been plenty of arrests and convictions from false fingerprint matches over the decades. DNA helped sort out a lot of false convictions, but I'll let Adam tell you more about it.

    That "margin of error" exists in everything science is dealing with. Even in DNA... If the opening statement of this guy's show is "we may not actually prove" then it fails from the beginning. We may not prove what? Is that an undecideable computability problem? The term "unprovable" has a scientific meaning and it makes sense only within a scientific context, not in a layman's show business context. The probability of finding two identical fingerprints is something already defined and we understand it as "unique" only within those limits.

    Regarding false fingerprint matches those are more likely attributable to human errors or scanning/storage errors than mathematics and Nature.
    edited July 2017 radarthekat[Deleted User]
  • Reply 16 of 91
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member
    Soli said:
    Fingerprints are unique, even among twins. It is crazy to think that Apple will ditch such a unique feature and replace it with the face easily copiable. The face is not unique. TouchID works with body electricity, but the face can be easily recognized with a mask, what is the body electricity of the face, an aura or something? Reminds me of the '60s Kirlian photography pseudoscience…
    1) I agree that the facial recognition for security rumour seems silly.

    2) While Touch ID has been excellent, there are people that can't use the feature.

    3) We can't actually prove that all fingerprints are unique. There is a finite number of pattern combinations plus the inherent issue with biometrics that looks for a "within a margin of error" match, which is not something that's tolerated with passwords. There's also been plenty of arrests and convictions from false fingerprint matches over the decades. DNA helped sort out a lot of false convictions, but I'll let Adam tell you more about it.



    This is the best work on this that I could find quickly. The others are either too vague, or too complex for most to easily understand.

    http://biometrics.cse.msu.edu/Presentations/AnilJain_UniquenessOfFingerprints_NAS05.pdf
    edited July 2017
  • Reply 17 of 91
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,035member
    Where I can see facial recognition for non-secure identity verification:
    • Siri Remote so that a front facing camera will change the user account to the correct family member when you press a button.
    • A self-driving car facing the driver that probably still has a couple decades of laws where the pilot is awake and passing a certain level of attention while the car is in auto-pilot mode.
    patchythepirate
  • Reply 18 of 91
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 12,877member
    Ok, fine, but you would have to turn your phone toward your face precisely, so that the camera array can "see" your face.
    Why are people everywhere saying this, despite the content saying otherwise? 

     It also said that the system is capable of recognizing a person even if the iPhone is laying flat on a table, not held in front of the user's face.

    If you've tried the new document scanning feature in iOS 11, you'll note that you do not have to line your iPad above a page on the table to scan it -- it works at an angle like magic.
    edited July 2017 patchythepiratenetmageradarthekatcalisuddenly newton
  • Reply 19 of 91
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,035member
    Soli said:
    Fingerprints are unique, even among twins. It is crazy to think that Apple will ditch such a unique feature and replace it with the face easily copiable. The face is not unique. TouchID works with body electricity, but the face can be easily recognized with a mask, what is the body electricity of the face, an aura or something? Reminds me of the '60s Kirlian photography pseudoscience…
    1) I agree that the facial recognition for security rumour seems silly.

    2) While Touch ID has been excellent, there are people that can't use the feature.

    3) We can't actually prove that all fingerprints are unique. There is a finite number of pattern combinations plus the inherent issue with biometrics that looks for a "within a margin of error" match, which is not something that's tolerated with passwords. There's also been plenty of arrests and convictions from false fingerprint matches over the decades. DNA helped sort out a lot of false convictions, but I'll let Adam tell you more about it.

    That "margin of error" exists in everything science is dealing with. Even in DNA... If the opening statement of this guy's show is "we may not actually prove" then it fails from the beginning. We may not prove what? Is that an undecideable computability problem? The term "unprovable" has a scientific meaning and it makes sense only within a scientific context, not in a layman's show business context. The probability of finding two identical fingerprints is something already defined and we understand it as "unique" only within those limits.
    So wouldn't scientists refer to it as being improbable instead of saying that they are unique, which carries the meaning "being the only one of its kind." I think even "statistically impossible" would've been better than "unique."
    anton zuykov
  • Reply 20 of 91
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,035member
    melgross said:
    Soli said:
    Fingerprints are unique, even among twins. It is crazy to think that Apple will ditch such a unique feature and replace it with the face easily copiable. The face is not unique. TouchID works with body electricity, but the face can be easily recognized with a mask, what is the body electricity of the face, an aura or something? Reminds me of the '60s Kirlian photography pseudoscience…
    1) I agree that the facial recognition for security rumour seems silly.

    2) While Touch ID has been excellent, there are people that can't use the feature.

    3) We can't actually prove that all fingerprints are unique. There is a finite number of pattern combinations plus the inherent issue with biometrics that looks for a "within a margin of error" match, which is not something that's tolerated with passwords. There's also been plenty of arrests and convictions from false fingerprint matches over the decades. DNA helped sort out a lot of false convictions, but I'll let Adam tell you more about it.



    This is the best work on this that I could find quickly. The others are either too vague, or too complex for most to easily understand.

    http://biometrics.cse.msu.edu/Presentations/AnilJain_UniquenessOfFingerprints_NAS05.pdf
    Can you imagine having to use fingerprints as your key evidence and have to educate the jury on all the ways that were measured and the maths to make sure they see that it's defendant's print(s) beyond a "reasonable doubt". No wonder there were so many bad calls.

    I'm so glad we live in a time with DNA evidence. Although, DNA can be obtained if someone was trying to set you up, and we know that you be of your natural DNA but bleed a different DNA if you've had a bone marrow transplant. This makes a testing blood at a crime scene against a hair follicle or cheek squab more daunting,
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