Former Google exec Vic Gundotra praises Apple iPhone 7 Plus camera, says Android photograp...

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  • Reply 41 of 46
    nht said:
    avon b7 said:
    I think there's an element of not seeing the forest for the trees in all of this.

    It's a phone first and foremost and comes with all the drawbacks of having a handheld mobile device. Some devices have more drawbacks than others.

    It's not going to give you the utmost results all of the time and I'd say everyone agrees on that. Nobody questions that.

    The comments on the platform are also too general in scope to be useful. Some could say the flexibility of Android being open is also an advantage. In the same way Apple's closed system can be an advantage or a disadvantage depending on your needs.

    Your options are reduced with Apple but if they meet your needs at a price you can afford, everything is moot. 

    It's still a phone with a camera, not a camera with a phone. We shouldn't lose perspective because of that.

    Some Android manufacturers work just like Apple. They design their own SoC, collaborate with lens manufacturers, design their own image processors, apply their own AI etc. The platform isn't a problem for those players. Not a big one anyway.

    That all of that isn't platform wide really isn't an issue.

    The iPhone 6 I have at home takes great photos most of the time but it also takes shitty ones too. The software that ships with it is very unflexible IMO but I like the photos better than on my Android phone.

    Does my phone take crap photos? Not at all. They are mostly great for what I need and my phone only cost 249€. Far less than what the iPhone 6 cost. The iPhone 6 battery now only gives about 15mins of use before shutting down without warning. My phone still lasts around a day. I hear it's going to cost me 110€ for Apple to replace it and I could be up to a week without the phone. That's a lot of lost photos. It's all relative. As someone said, the best camera is the one you have to hand.

    If I'd wanted to spend more on a better camera I could have spent 500€ and got something far better (still for far less than an iPhone7+) but that was one of the tradeoffs I was willing - and able - to make.

    From an Android platform specific perspective things might not be uniform but I don't see individual manufacturers suffering as a result. Nor users.

    Current mid and high end Android cameras are very good, just as Apple's are. I don't see anyone claiming to hate the photos they take.

    No doubt Apple's offerings in the late 2017 lineup will improve things even more but so will Android offerings in the same period. The Mate 10 might be just one you should look out for.

    For me, the single biggest problem with smartphone cameras is the lack of a view finder but that's why I have a real camera too. An issue that is understandable because I never forget that at the end of the day, it's still a mobile phone and while it may be a jack of many trades, I don't expect it to be master of them all.

    Platform issues in this area are overblown when you take average users into account.
    Avon thinks another aspect of Apple is inferior. Wow, what a surprise.

    never mind that the iPhones are the most used camera in the world despite 80% share by android. #2 is canon followed by Samsung.

    Need clarification on the statistics that you provided - Are ALL Android phones lumped together to make a "Android Phones" category? Or were they divided based on OEMs? If it is the latter which seems to be the case (with Samsung explicitly occupying #3 position), then iPhones are the most used than "ALL Android phones together" is "misleading", isn't it? Does this include data from ALL over the world where Android has 80% marketshare against 20% for iPhones? Or is it specific to "USA" where iPhones have a much larger marketshare?

    Edit: I did a bit of google search to figure out the basis for this "most used camera" statistics. It is based on "flickr" as per google search. It is as "unscientific" as it can get. It is NOT a fact, cannot be a fact, by any stretch of imagination. Just a "lie" which when repeatedly said becomes a truth. Nothing more than that.

    http://www.huhmagazine.co.uk/3235/iphone-the-worlds-most-popular-camera

    https://photofocus.com/2013/04/30/why-the-iphone-is-the-most-popular-camera-in-the-world-and-what-camera-manufacturers-should-learn-from-it/

    edited August 2017
  • Reply 42 of 46
    zouzka said:
    macxpress said:
    zouzka said:
    macxpress said:
    zouzka said:
    zouzka said:
    That's not the point he was trying to make…
    But his point doesn't make any sens. "Should I use the Samsung Camera? Or the Android Camera" But on an S8 there is only the Samsung Camera app, so it's not confusing at all.

    " Gundotra is talking about the entire experience, from the lenses to the Phone's hardware, to the software, rather than just lens quality."
    Yeah, big deal, people still think the app, the quality, the experience etc is better on a Pixel.

    It won't take years for them to be on iPhone's level, they already have years ago now.

    And how many are buying a Pixel for this amazing camera? How many Pixel's in general are out there vs any other Android phone?
    Wait, that was not the point he was making.

    But go buy an S8, a LG G6, etc
    They take excellent pictures.
    But you said the experience is better on a Pixel vs an iPhone....I don't care about S8's, LG's, etc. How many professional photo shoots are done on a Pixel, or any Android phone for that matter versus an iPhone 7 Plus? How many professional movies are filmed on any Android phone versus an iPhone 7 Plus? 
    That was just an example, the experience is great on those phones too.

    Hahaha "professional movies" ? Like who the hell cares about that ? Real professionals use pro equipment.
    The rare one you see on certain magazines, it's just marketing.
    Let me know when Oscar winning directors are shooting movies on your knockoff.

    https://www.cultofmac.com/493434/steven-soderberghs-secret-iphone-movie-hollywood-abuzz/
    For how long would Android devices be called as "knockoffs" in this forum? 5 years? 10 years? Billion years? Eternity???? Even if the copying happens between iOS and Android regularly world back and forth? Like the iPhone Pro/X which is going to implement the "near bezel less design" and "OLED display" provided by none other than Samsung? And it is the "copied features" which are considered to be triggering the "super-cycle" after a gap of 3 years!!!

    I'd go with "Eternity". Give it a rest. This is an Apple-centric forum. Bias is expected. No need to act so righteously indignant.  
  • Reply 43 of 46
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,256member
    melgross said:
    foggyhill said:
    zouzka said:
    macxpress said:
    zouzka said:
    macxpress said:
    zouzka said:
    zouzka said:
    That's not the point he was trying to make…
    But his point doesn't make any sens. "Should I use the Samsung Camera? Or the Android Camera" But on an S8 there is only the Samsung Camera app, so it's not confusing at all.

    " Gundotra is talking about the entire experience, from the lenses to the Phone's hardware, to the software, rather than just lens quality."
    Yeah, big deal, people still think the app, the quality, the experience etc is better on a Pixel.

    It won't take years for them to be on iPhone's level, they already have years ago now.

    And how many are buying a Pixel for this amazing camera? How many Pixel's in general are out there vs any other Android phone?
    Wait, that was not the point he was making.

    But go buy an S8, a LG G6, etc
    They take excellent pictures.
    But you said the experience is better on a Pixel vs an iPhone....I don't care about S8's, LG's, etc. How many professional photo shoots are done on a Pixel, or any Android phone for that matter versus an iPhone 7 Plus? How many professional movies are filmed on any Android phone versus an iPhone 7 Plus? 
    That was just an example, the experience is great on those phones too.

    Hahaha "professional movies" ? Like who the hell cares about that ? Real professionals use pro equipment.
    The rare one you see on certain magazines, it's just marketing.
    Let me know when Oscar winning directors are shooting movies on your knockoff.

    https://www.cultofmac.com/493434/steven-soderberghs-secret-iphone-movie-hollywood-abuzz/
    For how long would Android devices be called as "knockoffs" in this forum? 5 years? 10 years? Billion years? Eternity???? Even if the copying happens between iOS and Android regularly world back and forth? Like the iPhone Pro/X which is going to implement the "near bezel less design" and "OLED display" provided by none other than Samsung? And it is the "copied features" which are considered to be triggering the "super-cycle" after a gap of 3 years!!!
    Blah blah blah blah, do you have a point? Seriously?
     OLED was shit for 5 years still Samsung foisted it on people who still claimed like you do now that Apple should have shifted using it right when it came out!
    There are thousands of pages on places like MacRumors going back years that Apple was behind because they had not switched then and there.
    Samsung basically used their own users as lab rats for years to develop the manufacturign capacity for OLED.
    The reason Apple is going to Samsung is manufacturing capability, not some kind of tech godhood.

    Android as a whole is not a company btw, so again, what's your point?
    With respect to OLED display technology in smartphones, who is the "Original" and who is the "copycat"? Can you answer that question honestly to yourselves? My point was fairly simple - It is ridiculous to call "ALL Android smartphones" as "Knockoffs" when Apple is also copying ideas from Android OEMs. Need proof? Don't look any further than upcoming iPhone Pro.
    It’s pretty clear that apple didn’t use OLEDs because their quality was pretty poor for years. Samsung used them despite that, for marketing reasons. People using Samsung phones had to suffer with these crappy displays until the criticism became so rampant that they had to spend the money to calibrate each one, as Apple had been doing for years for their lcd displays.

    it’s no surprise however, that now with OLED displays being much better, that Apple would begin a move to them.  Copying? I don’t think so.

    apple is so far ahead in so many areas that using the word copying is a joke.

    With respect to OLED displays, Apple did not make any investment whatsoever and let Samsung work on it from the scratch, make it perfect and then use it once Samsung has perfected it. I probably used the wrong word "copying" in this specific case. In this case, would "borrowing the idea" be the right phrase for describing this situation? Because Apple did just NOTHING in terms of investment in R&D to make it ready for deployment in iPhones. And it is just one example. There are other "ideas" (less bezel design, just to give an example) that Apple has "borrowed" from Android OEMs. When that happens regularly, calling "ALL Android phones" as knockoffs is ridiculous. For "borrowing" those ideas, iPhones CAN also be called as "knockoff". I also mentioned a classic example of that - upcoming iPhone X/Pro. It would look more like an Android phone (tiny bezels and OLED display), than any past iPhones (with giant bezels, LCD display) which have been launched so far.

    That’s not even true. Apple has a slew of patents on OLED displays that they R&D’d over the last few years. Whether these displays use any of that we don’t know. But Apple is known to have special specs for parts that aren’t the usual parts from the OEM, often with part numbers that are different. Samsung, in particular, has acknowledged that they change the specs, and features, of parts according to Apple’s direction. Apple isn’t spending $12 billion a year in R&D for nothing, you know.

    oh, and OLEDs are far from “perfect”. They are no more than an intermediary to something better, most likely to MicroLED, where Apple is the acknowledged leader.

    the concepts of Android devices as being knockoffs isn’t a phrase I use. But since Android itself is very much a result of copying iOS, in a deliberate way, then you can say, with truth, that Android devices are copies of iOS devices. And that can be said despite individual features coming out first on either platform. Remember that Android was first going to be a copy of the Blackberry OS, with a full keyboard and no multitouch. Everything else that followed was from that major copy from Apple. Over the years, the two have diverged, but Android still owes its very existence to iOS. If they had continued to copy Blackberry, Android would have died on the vine.
  • Reply 44 of 46
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,256member
    nht said:
    avon b7 said:
    I think there's an element of not seeing the forest for the trees in all of this.

    It's a phone first and foremost and comes with all the drawbacks of having a handheld mobile device. Some devices have more drawbacks than others.

    It's not going to give you the utmost results all of the time and I'd say everyone agrees on that. Nobody questions that.

    The comments on the platform are also too general in scope to be useful. Some could say the flexibility of Android being open is also an advantage. In the same way Apple's closed system can be an advantage or a disadvantage depending on your needs.

    Your options are reduced with Apple but if they meet your needs at a price you can afford, everything is moot. 

    It's still a phone with a camera, not a camera with a phone. We shouldn't lose perspective because of that.

    Some Android manufacturers work just like Apple. They design their own SoC, collaborate with lens manufacturers, design their own image processors, apply their own AI etc. The platform isn't a problem for those players. Not a big one anyway.

    That all of that isn't platform wide really isn't an issue.

    The iPhone 6 I have at home takes great photos most of the time but it also takes shitty ones too. The software that ships with it is very unflexible IMO but I like the photos better than on my Android phone.

    Does my phone take crap photos? Not at all. They are mostly great for what I need and my phone only cost 249€. Far less than what the iPhone 6 cost. The iPhone 6 battery now only gives about 15mins of use before shutting down without warning. My phone still lasts around a day. I hear it's going to cost me 110€ for Apple to replace it and I could be up to a week without the phone. That's a lot of lost photos. It's all relative. As someone said, the best camera is the one you have to hand.

    If I'd wanted to spend more on a better camera I could have spent 500€ and got something far better (still for far less than an iPhone7+) but that was one of the tradeoffs I was willing - and able - to make.

    From an Android platform specific perspective things might not be uniform but I don't see individual manufacturers suffering as a result. Nor users.

    Current mid and high end Android cameras are very good, just as Apple's are. I don't see anyone claiming to hate the photos they take.

    No doubt Apple's offerings in the late 2017 lineup will improve things even more but so will Android offerings in the same period. The Mate 10 might be just one you should look out for.

    For me, the single biggest problem with smartphone cameras is the lack of a view finder but that's why I have a real camera too. An issue that is understandable because I never forget that at the end of the day, it's still a mobile phone and while it may be a jack of many trades, I don't expect it to be master of them all.

    Platform issues in this area are overblown when you take average users into account.
    Avon thinks another aspect of Apple is inferior. Wow, what a surprise.

    never mind that the iPhones are the most used camera in the world despite 80% share by android. #2 is canon followed by Samsung.

    Need clarification on the statistics that you provided - Are ALL Android phones lumped together to make a "Android Phones" category? Or were they divided based on OEMs? If it is the latter which seems to be the case (with Samsung explicitly occupying #3 position), then iPhones are the most used than "ALL Android phones together" is "misleading", isn't it? Does this include data from ALL over the world where Android has 80% marketshare against 20% for iPhones? Or is it specific to "USA" where iPhones have a much larger marketshare?

    Edit: I did a bit of google search to figure out the basis for this "most used camera" statistics. It is based on "flickr" as per google search. It is as "unscientific" as it can get. It is NOT a fact, cannot be a fact, by any stretch of imagination. Just a "lie" which when repeatedly said becomes a truth. Nothing more than that.

    http://www.huhmagazine.co.uk/3235/iphone-the-worlds-most-popular-camera

    https://photofocus.com/2013/04/30/why-the-iphone-is-the-most-popular-camera-in-the-world-and-what-camera-manufacturers-should-learn-from-it/

    I don’t know who said that the iphone camera was used more than all other cameras put together. I wouldn’t say that. But it’s true that it is the most used camera. I don’t agree with what he said in Photo pho US though, about the OIS feature. Apple’s is considered to be one of the best anti shake system around. Period! I can testify to that. My Canon 5DmkIV has some L lenses that I use that have extremely good optical anti shake, after all, Canon invented that. When using my iPhone 7+ against a couple of fan lenses that are remarked upon for excellent stabilization, in approximately the same equivalent focal lengths, the iPhone is awful close, and sometimes slightly better. Apple was the first to combine optical and electronic stabilization, and it’s the best for any smartphone, and pretty good when compared to “real” camera systems.

    so it just gets my goat when some semi photo literate writers say things they don’t know much about.
  • Reply 45 of 46
    melgross said:
    nht said:
    avon b7 said:
    I think there's an element of not seeing the forest for the trees in all of this.

    It's a phone first and foremost and comes with all the drawbacks of having a handheld mobile device. Some devices have more drawbacks than others.

    It's not going to give you the utmost results all of the time and I'd say everyone agrees on that. Nobody questions that.

    The comments on the platform are also too general in scope to be useful. Some could say the flexibility of Android being open is also an advantage. In the same way Apple's closed system can be an advantage or a disadvantage depending on your needs.

    Your options are reduced with Apple but if they meet your needs at a price you can afford, everything is moot. 

    It's still a phone with a camera, not a camera with a phone. We shouldn't lose perspective because of that.

    Some Android manufacturers work just like Apple. They design their own SoC, collaborate with lens manufacturers, design their own image processors, apply their own AI etc. The platform isn't a problem for those players. Not a big one anyway.

    That all of that isn't platform wide really isn't an issue.

    The iPhone 6 I have at home takes great photos most of the time but it also takes shitty ones too. The software that ships with it is very unflexible IMO but I like the photos better than on my Android phone.

    Does my phone take crap photos? Not at all. They are mostly great for what I need and my phone only cost 249€. Far less than what the iPhone 6 cost. The iPhone 6 battery now only gives about 15mins of use before shutting down without warning. My phone still lasts around a day. I hear it's going to cost me 110€ for Apple to replace it and I could be up to a week without the phone. That's a lot of lost photos. It's all relative. As someone said, the best camera is the one you have to hand.

    If I'd wanted to spend more on a better camera I could have spent 500€ and got something far better (still for far less than an iPhone7+) but that was one of the tradeoffs I was willing - and able - to make.

    From an Android platform specific perspective things might not be uniform but I don't see individual manufacturers suffering as a result. Nor users.

    Current mid and high end Android cameras are very good, just as Apple's are. I don't see anyone claiming to hate the photos they take.

    No doubt Apple's offerings in the late 2017 lineup will improve things even more but so will Android offerings in the same period. The Mate 10 might be just one you should look out for.

    For me, the single biggest problem with smartphone cameras is the lack of a view finder but that's why I have a real camera too. An issue that is understandable because I never forget that at the end of the day, it's still a mobile phone and while it may be a jack of many trades, I don't expect it to be master of them all.

    Platform issues in this area are overblown when you take average users into account.
    Avon thinks another aspect of Apple is inferior. Wow, what a surprise.

    never mind that the iPhones are the most used camera in the world despite 80% share by android. #2 is canon followed by Samsung.

    Need clarification on the statistics that you provided - Are ALL Android phones lumped together to make a "Android Phones" category? Or were they divided based on OEMs? If it is the latter which seems to be the case (with Samsung explicitly occupying #3 position), then iPhones are the most used than "ALL Android phones together" is "misleading", isn't it? Does this include data from ALL over the world where Android has 80% marketshare against 20% for iPhones? Or is it specific to "USA" where iPhones have a much larger marketshare?

    Edit: I did a bit of google search to figure out the basis for this "most used camera" statistics. It is based on "flickr" as per google search. It is as "unscientific" as it can get. It is NOT a fact, cannot be a fact, by any stretch of imagination. Just a "lie" which when repeatedly said becomes a truth. Nothing more than that.

    http://www.huhmagazine.co.uk/3235/iphone-the-worlds-most-popular-camera

    https://photofocus.com/2013/04/30/why-the-iphone-is-the-most-popular-camera-in-the-world-and-what-camera-manufacturers-should-learn-from-it/

    I don’t know who said that the iphone camera was used more than all other cameras put together. I wouldn’t say that. But it’s true that it is the most used camera. I don’t agree with what he said in Photo pho US though, about the OIS feature. Apple’s is considered to be one of the best anti shake system around. Period! I can testify to that. My Canon 5DmkIV has some L lenses that I use that have extremely good optical anti shake, after all, Canon invented that. When using my iPhone 7+ against a couple of fan lenses that are remarked upon for excellent stabilization, in approximately the same equivalent focal lengths, the iPhone is awful close, and sometimes slightly better. Apple was the first to combine optical and electronic stabilization, and it’s the best for any smartphone, and pretty good when compared to “real” camera systems.

    so it just gets my goat when some semi photo literate writers say things they don’t know much about.
    The person to whom I was replying to said "the iPhones are the most used camera in the world despite 80% share by android" !!!  The "despite 80% share by Android" part explicitly indicates that ALL Android phones put together, isn't it? I agree with your other points on EIS/OIS.
  • Reply 46 of 46
    Apple controls the experience on the "entire" widget. It makes for a far more pleasant experience than the case with Windows and Android. With respect to color management on apple's devices, android devices are quite unsatisfactory. 

    Samsung knows the android experience is a poor one. They have approached Google a number of times to add additional capabilities to the OS or modifications. They have been rebuffed time and time again. Google has made clear their intention to try and keep the experience on the Android platform as consistent as possible between manufacturers. It means that Samsung's unique hardware capabilities are never fully realized. 

    Samsung has also made their intentions clear. They are planning a whole sale move off of Android and onto Tizen. Their Gear S3 smartwatch is a wake up call. The Samsung watch is flat out far superior to any of the Android wear manufacturers. It isn't even remotely competitive. 4 days of battery life with superior performance and the ability to make phone calls independent of a phone. Tizen really makes the Gear S3 hardware sing. The Android wear watches appear as little more than junk in comparison. 

    Samsung builds very nice components and nice hardware. And what they are doing, no other android manufacturer is even capable of matching. Like Apple, Samsung has thousands of engineers dedicated just to optics. Google is going to lose control of the second major mobile OS. They refused to let Samsung take control of Android and hence Samsung will be moving to Tizen. And Samsung hardware will have unique hardware capabilities no other mobile device will have. How long HTC, Huawei and LG will be able to compete is anyone's guess. However, samsung is going to crush the rest of the non iOS mobile market. Google might as well assign Android to Samsung. 

    With Samsung in total control, uniformity will prevail and a more thoughtful progression can occur rather than the free for all, haphazard and disjointed advancement of the Android market. It's a total mess. 
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