Apple's MacBook Pro, iMac sales beat all industry estimates, defeat contracting market

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  • Reply 61 of 75
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,730member
    nht said:

    BigDann said:

    tmay said:
    BigDann said:
    BigDann said:
    >>> Almost... The truth is sometimes somewhere between! The sales force market is what Apple sold to, not the real heavy-weigh creatives! Apple saw the MacBook Air & MacBook (new) is what the sales force types want in size & weight with the performance of a MacBook Pro! Thats what Apple created and it sold to as it was the bigger market. <<< >>> If you are a real creative type or engineer the New MacBook Pro's fell short. They are the ones that have a big need in using ports and need gobs of RAM (video editing) This is the group Apple did not sell to. Apple needs to create a Pro's Pro (i'll call it the MacBook Pro-X) hitting all of the points Apple failed to address. <<< >>> Yes! The creative & engineering users are vocal as they are in need of better gear too! <<< >>> As an example the company I work for will be dropping 300+ MacBook Pro's and going to HP & Dell laptops. We just can't wait any more, 3 years in limbo! Our needs are ports Type A USB without dongles, removable storage (security) and long battery life. Within the next year or so I will likely loose my job because of the hardware switch. If Apple came out with the MacBook Pro-X I know the pro's would run and buy it. If it had come out in the spring our company would have bought replacements for what we have in the field and then some! And I would still a bright future supporting them all. <<<
    A USB-C to USB-B cable is $6. USB-C to micro-USB-B is $5. No dongles required. If you need 300 of them, you can probably get them cheaper.

    Removable storage you won't find with a drive that has the speed of the MacBook Pro SSD, and you won't find in HP or Dell's workstations. Apple's battery life is best in class. Regarding RAM, talk to Intel. Kaby Lake doesn't support 32GB of LPDDR3 RAM, and to get there with LPDDR4 is two chip generations away. Other machines that can do it use a separate controller, and you won't get MacBook Pro battery life.

    The Dell i7 15-inch with 32GB of RAM, and a slower 512GB SSD? It's $2899. It has a four-hour battery life.

    If this is accurate, and I have no reason to believe it's not, your management and/or ownership are full of it and just want to be rid of Macs.

    These Pros screaming for 32GB of RAM and beefy Apple hardware will need to put their money where their mouth is, and do it soon. The vast majority of Apple's market has spoken whether we like it or not. These Pros? They are in the low single-digits of 10 percent of Apple's business from a dollar perspective. At best, given Apple's own numbers, 0.5 percent, at best.
    Mike I'm not disagreeing with you. Apple saw a market that was underserved and it struct it and hit pay dirt! No question about that.

    As for USB-B to USB-C cables. That works for printers and other devices that have removable cables. It doesn't solve the USB thumb drives and devices that don't have removable cables. Sadly we have a lot.

    As far as storage theres more to it than speed it's gaining access to the data when the system craps out as well as the security of the data when the system needs to be serviced. Some of us work on stuff thats very confidential! Which is why removable internal storage is a must. Apples new SSD using in the 13" function key model appears to offer both speed & removability, so it can be done. 

    Our testing shows the Dell is 7~8 hours web surfing which is about the same for the MacBook Pro's using Chrome. So I'm not sure where you got 4 hours. Granted, this is not much of a load and in use. We can only get about 2hrs for either running CAD with our workloads in either. Which is why we need a bigger battery option. Right now we are using some external batteries when we have no choice. But they don't fit the USB-C port. I'm sure USB-C options will show up that will help but thats not now.

    Yes, the heavy weight Pro market is much smaller but its also the group that made Apple Apple! If augmented reality (AR) is what Apple wants to get into its this group which will lead the pack. So if they can't do it with what Apple is selling were does that leave Apple?

    Look at IBM with Watson this is a very expensive box and only a few 100 will be sold. Yet it will be what sets the mark in predictive analytical breakdown. I'm sure Apple has access to one or two for its AI efforts.

    So big companies do see the value of small niche products that build sales indirectly. Apple needs to see the light here that this is no different! It's the development of the next big thing that it needs to nurture. Failing to do that will weaken its' importance as a leader.

    As for the company I work for. They pleated directly with Apple quite a few times as they did not want to jump (they still don't want to). It was a very tough decision and was driven from the support staff not upper management. I know of one other mid-sized company that will likely do the same.

    It's the small & mid-sized companies that don't have the deep pockets to rotate equipment like the bigger companies and they likewise want to squeeze out every ounce out of the gear they do buy or lease. This is the market Apple is loosing as in our case.
    I disagree with you for the most part on what Apple should do for the market; your use case has "niche" written all over it, and you/your company doesn't seem to care to adapt, very fast anyway. "Pro's" are just as likely to resist change as any other computing segment; move on.

    Purchase  USB Type C Thumb Drive; they are readily available.

    Increase your battery life by using Safari instead of Chrome, which has a notorious reputation for poor battery life on an MBP, albeit Google has greatly improved it to date.

    Solve your removable storage issue by using a USB Type C mass storage device, including a TB 3 one for performance
    .
    Use a different CAD system not laden with decades of legacy code, which most are, to increase battery life. A difficult transition, but otherwise, I'm not seeing the need for Apple to figure out why your CAD software is so power inefficient. What software do use you and what for?

    I am reminded of the other concern that Pro's had; 32 GB of DRAM. For the most part, I see this as a requirement that they pulled out of their asses, with no actual, nor relevant testing to determine if it was even required. But some "Pro Creatives" did test, for video workflows as an example and did find that the top end MBP did just fine, and posted benchmarks and workflow to prove it. In fact, the only relevant concern I can see that is not covered by the Intel Roadmap in the near future, is the need for a top end MBP without the Touch Bar.

    Finally, wrt the Mac Pro, Apple has hinted at a new form factor, with, I'm assuming, reasonable performance levels.

    I would add, If the Mac Mini dies, it is because it has outlived it's usefulness as the utility of entry level PC's diminishes.
    Sorry Guy we don't throw out the baby with the bathwater!

    You have no idea the scale of change you are talking about here! You also don't follow we are on the cutting edge! We need more horse power as we are doing more and in most cases we are using the best software available.

    You have this idea there are options in software there are none! We are using the best thats available.

    A good 25% of the time we are hitting the 16GB RAM wall so 32GB would improve things for us, Some of the tools we use work better with more RAM.
    Frankly you're full of it.  First you claim the MBP is only for the "sales force market" and not "real heavy-weigh [sic} creatives" claiming that video requires "lots of RAM".  Ignoring FCPX because we know the MBP runs that very well and only considering PPro doing a 10 camera 4K ProRes the app memory used was 5.85 GB.  Doing split 4K the measured RAM usage was 10GB with only moderate memory pressure.

    Here's a quote from Adobe:

    "There is a certain amount of overhead as projects grow that requires more and more RAM for larger projects. Uses such as multiple applications with heavy DynamicLink benefit from lots of memory. The “Deadpool” [feature film] reels would have been painful with 16 GB. Most people however aren’t working on “Deadpool” or even using multiple applications and so don’t practically demand this level of resources. Where [its] available, [as with the] iMacs, I’d suggest [adding] more just because RAM is so cheap, but the limits on the MacBooks won’t hurt the wide bulk of our user base."

                                                             -- Al Mooney, Senior Product Manager for Professional Video Editing at Adobe Systems 

    https://larryjordan.com/articles/is-the-new-macbook-pro-fast-enough-for-video-editing/#Practical

    Then you talk about running CAD and burning through batteries in 2 hours.  As if most folks using CAD software is doing it somewhere without AC power.  In any case there are USB-C battery solutions that provide 87W power (hyper juice batteries + USB-C adapter) but as I mentioned earlier, it's a lot easier to use a generator if you're in the field and need heavy compute power for longer periods.

    https://www.hypershop.com/collections/power/products/hyperjuice-magic-box-100w-allows-hyperjuice-macbook-battery-packs-to-charge-usb-c-macbook

    That 25% of your needs require more than 16GB is possible but AutoDesk disagrees with you on the ability to use CAD on the MBP:

    The MacBook Pro is a very popular device,” says O’Brien. “I think it is a device that has been optimized for running programs like AutoCAD.

                                                          -- Marcus O’Brien, senior product line manager, Autodesk.

    https://architosh.com/2016/12/more-relevant-than-ever-autodesk-totally-committed-to-autocad-and-the-mac/

    As a note, Autodesk added Touchbar support for AutoCAD 2017.  So has Graphisoft in ARCHICAD 21.

    But frankly, if I was regularly using CAD heavily in the field I'd throw an 27" iMac into a pelican case and arrange to have a Honda generator.  Using any CAD software on a 15" screen is simply painful.  Somewhere I still have my 3d connexion space mouse from back when and I had a 30" monitor back then that always seemed too small.

    Cutting edge my ass.
    I actually like your idea about the Pelican Case for an iMac. A vacuum formed insert with a light, conformal padding would be excellent. I don't have a need for mobility though.

    Interestingly enough, I came across a story, with images, of a woman in Britain hauling an iMac onto a train, powering it up, and using it like anybody would use a laptop.
  • Reply 62 of 75
    sphericspheric Posts: 2,223member
    danvm said:
    spheric said:
    danvm said:
    spheric said:
    danvm said:
    I agree with you that the issue with ports is overblown, but that's based in my line of work and workflow.  Like I posted before, I'm looking forward to have a MBP 13", since most of the things that were removed don't affect my workflow (all but the awful keyboard).  But you can't ignore when other people, in a different line of work with different needs, including professional users, are affected when USB 3.0 or the SD reader was removed from the MBP.  It's clear that USB-C is far more capable and it's the future, but looks like people wasn't ready to switch to it in an instant.
    What's funny to me is that the keyboard on this 2016 MacBook Pro is the best keyboard I've ever owned since the original ADB Extended Keyboard I got in 1989 (never liked the soft bottom of the ADB Extended Keyboard II that everybody raves about). 

    I didn't much like the 2016 MacBook keyboard when I tested it, but this thing (Pro)…sooo good. 

    I'll admit that it took me about a day to get used to it, though. 

    Maybe it's the best keyboard you have ever owned.  But have you try Lenovo Thinkpad keyboards, like the T470s or the X1 Carbon?  You'll see what a great keyboard is.  And I don't understand the "get used to it".  Macbook trackpads are excellent, and I have not heard of someone the had to get used to it.  It was good, period.  If the Macbook/MBP keyboards are so good, why do I have get used to it?

    Because that's how our hands work? 

    I'm a professional keyboard player. Believe me, I'm fairly experienced when it comes to how fingers adjust to different tactile responses, amounts of travel, feedback, stiffness, bounce, and attack. Every single mechanical piano, every single different type of keyboard, takes some adjusting. I'll need a few minutes of playing just to acclimatise to each of the three pianos I have at home — an old acoustic, a 1977 Mk 1 Fender Rhodes, and a CP70 — and I've been playing those for years. Not to mention the 'boards I have in the studio, or the ones I take on the road. 
    What you are saying then is that there is no good or bad keyboard or track pad, since at the end, you'll be get used to it.  I don't think that's right at all.  As you say, you'll get used to what ever you use daily.   
    No, that's not at all what I said, and I apologise for being unclear. 

    There are plenty of keyboards with just plain shitty action, and there is such a thing as personal preference. 

    But EVERY keyboard requires some acclimatisation time, and I believe you're mistaking a noticeably different feel for "a bad keyboard". 

    I have yet to read from anyone who hasn't come around on the MacBook Pro keyboard after a few days at the latest. 

    There are legitimate gripes with the set of compromises Apple chose in their MacBook Pro design (every design is inevitably a combination of compromises), but from my experience and what I'm seeing on the web, the keyboard isn't really one of them. 
    I think it sounds like you haven't given it enough effort to do it judgment. 
  • Reply 63 of 75
    tmaytmay Posts: 5,730member
    Mike Wuerthele said:
    The vast majority of Apple's market has spoken whether we like it or not. These Pros? They are in the low single-digits of 10 percent of Apple's business from a dollar perspective. At best, given Apple's own numbers, 0.5 percent, at best.
    The problem with this argument is that’s basically the percentage of farmers in the Western world these days. So farm equipment should just stop being made, because it’s such a small percentage of the overall vehicle market. Right? It does Apple no good to make ONLY machines that are designed for content consumption if there’s no content left to be consumed.

    “But your analogy is flawed,” you say, “as content creators will simply go to Windows and produce from there. Comparing the entirety of the farming industry to just a small portion of the computer industry is wrong. It would be better to say, ‘There may not be farm implements anymore, but people can still eat tofu and pasteurized processed cheese-flavored spread.’”

    Well, if that’s the world you want.
    Sometimes i feel like a great chef who has devoted his entire life to monastic study of the art of cooking and gathered the finest ingredients and built the most advanced kitchen and prepared the most exquisite meal–so perfect, so delicious, so extraordinary; more astounding than any meal ever created. Yet each day i stand in my window and watch 97% percent of the world walk past my restaurant into the McDonald’s across the street…
    – Fake Steve Jobs

    First, your analogy regards an entire market, farm equipment, and it I follow the analogy correctly, Apple sells farm equipment that meets the requirements of all farmers excepting those that need the highest performance mobile equipment; think those huge combines, and those unwilling or unable to purchase Apple's farm equipment. 

    Me, I just don't see that there's enough of a market for Mobile Workstations, and for the most part, Intel, et al, will be providing all of the low TDP parts in the future to make that niche requiring said Mobile Workstations extremely small.

    Some of those have, and will continue to leave Apple for Windows, but plenty of other content creators are coming on board Mac OS and iOS who aren't constrained by the lack of a Mobile Workstation.
  • Reply 64 of 75
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 6,485administrator
    Mike Wuerthele said:
    The vast majority of Apple's market has spoken whether we like it or not. These Pros? They are in the low single-digits of 10 percent of Apple's business from a dollar perspective. At best, given Apple's own numbers, 0.5 percent, at best.
    The problem with this argument is that’s basically the percentage of farmers in the Western world these days. So farm equipment should just stop being made, because it’s such a small percentage of the overall vehicle market. Right? It does Apple no good to make ONLY machines that are designed for content consumption if there’s no content left to be consumed.

    “But your analogy is flawed,” you say, “as content creators will simply go to Windows and produce from there. Comparing the entirety of the farming industry to just a small portion of the computer industry is wrong. It would be better to say, ‘There may not be farm implements anymore, but people can still eat tofu and pasteurized processed cheese-flavored spread.’”

    Well, if that’s the world you want.
    Sometimes i feel like a great chef who has devoted his entire life to monastic study of the art of cooking and gathered the finest ingredients and built the most advanced kitchen and prepared the most exquisite meal–so perfect, so delicious, so extraordinary; more astounding than any meal ever created. Yet each day i stand in my window and watch 97% percent of the world walk past my restaurant into the McDonald’s across the street…
    – Fake Steve Jobs

    No, your analogy is flawed because farmers occupy the entire venn diagram of "farmers." Now, making a tractor specifically for, say, a rutabaga farm probably isn't cost effective, and won't get made. Rutabaga farmers are a very small portion of the venn diagram of farmers.

    Whereas, "Pros" occupy a very small sector of the diagram of "Apple users," which is a small subset of the entire computing device user base.

    I get what you're saying. I just disagree. And again, I've spoken several times about how Apple doesn't tailor to what I want, an by extension, most AI readers. At no point have I said from a user standpoint that I agree with the sentiment, but it literally is what it is, and I get no say in what they do.
    edited August 2017 tallest skil
  • Reply 65 of 75
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,251member
    tmay said:
    danvm said:
    You propose to change the CAD application.  That option by itself it's not low cost at all.  On this case being a niche, I don't think you have all the details of their needs to label them as niche.  What is clear is that Apple devices didn't suit their business needs.  You need to understand that Apple in not the only high end option, HP, Dell and Lenovo have great devices too.  BTW, would you give them the same options to keep their devices if they were moving from HP/Dell or Mac, or would you tell them to move ASAP?

    About me being a Surface fan, personally I don't consider being one, neither of Macbooks (BTW, I currently own a MBA that died after 4yrs and will replace with a MBP).  They are great devices, but only with the purpose of accomplish my work.  So I don't have an attachment or need to be a fan of them.  And while MS don't have workstations, I have seen in my customers Dell Precision and HP Z workstations that are as good, and sometimes better than what Apple offers.  And that doesn't mean Apple devices are bad, just that there are cases where other devices are better than what they offer.  

    I use CAD, Solidworks and Inventor, program machine tools, and in almost all use cases, barring heavy simulation, there isn't a requirement for anywhere near 16 GB. As I stated, Apple is waiting for Intel, likely the Cannon Lake processor family, for implementation into a future MBP, the user of which will get 32 GB with continued good battery life, all in a widely marketed package.

    Still, one has to look at any application that only gets two hours of life out of a laptop as an aberration; a portable workstation might get double that at most. You would still need an external battery/power supply in that use case. 

    In your case there is no need for +16GB of RAM, but that doesn't mean there are cases where more is needed.  Right now Apple went with the 16GB / good battery life option, while Dell and HP gives you more options.  You should know the are real cases where 32GB of RAM is the best option.

    On battery life, application not always are the cause of the problem.  Sometimes the type of work requiere a lot of CPU/GPU draining battery faster. 
    So, here's the thing.

    I've been around Mac's since the 128. I even worked for a Federal agency at the time that was installing Computervision MCAD hardware, which I help evaluate and spec, based on a 68020 Sun Workstation, and in my entire life since then, I've noted so few CAD programs exclusive to the Mac, that I'm left to believe that BigDann is pushing an inaccurate storyline.

    AutoCAD runs in macOS and Windows, so that could be a possibility, since the change wouldn't be so hard on users.  But it just a guess.  

    Now I might be wrong about BigDann, though he could certainly clear that up with a bit of concise information about the applications.

    I do believe that there are many use cases that require 32GB or more DRAM, but I can't fault Apple for 1) not building a niche workstation out of the MBP, and, 2) waiting until Intel supports LPDDR4 mobile DRAM so they can maintain good battery life. As for the rest of the complaints, including the keyboard, I'm not buying it other that personal preference, or, inability to adapt to loss of legacy I/0.

    The keyboard thing is not always something of personal preference.  Most, if not, all people praise Macbook trackpads and Thinkpad keyboards.  There should be a reason for it, apart of personal preference.  

    Apple isn't attempting to compete with Dell or Hp in the PC market. Apple is participating in the x86/x64 market for the benefit of its Mac OS users who need that capability, though certainly Apple has a roadmap where Intel hardware can be deprecated in favor of something else, likely more customizable.
    If you have devices similar as other companies, then you are competing with them.  And Apple is doing very good in revenue/profit, although not that good in sales numbers.  IMO, that's the reason they still have the Mac line, to make money, and not for the benefit of users, as every other company.  
  • Reply 66 of 75
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,251member
    spheric said:
    danvm said:
    spheric said:
    danvm said:
    spheric said:
    danvm said:
    I agree with you that the issue with ports is overblown, but that's based in my line of work and workflow.  Like I posted before, I'm looking forward to have a MBP 13", since most of the things that were removed don't affect my workflow (all but the awful keyboard).  But you can't ignore when other people, in a different line of work with different needs, including professional users, are affected when USB 3.0 or the SD reader was removed from the MBP.  It's clear that USB-C is far more capable and it's the future, but looks like people wasn't ready to switch to it in an instant.
    What's funny to me is that the keyboard on this 2016 MacBook Pro is the best keyboard I've ever owned since the original ADB Extended Keyboard I got in 1989 (never liked the soft bottom of the ADB Extended Keyboard II that everybody raves about). 

    I didn't much like the 2016 MacBook keyboard when I tested it, but this thing (Pro)…sooo good. 

    I'll admit that it took me about a day to get used to it, though. 

    Maybe it's the best keyboard you have ever owned.  But have you try Lenovo Thinkpad keyboards, like the T470s or the X1 Carbon?  You'll see what a great keyboard is.  And I don't understand the "get used to it".  Macbook trackpads are excellent, and I have not heard of someone the had to get used to it.  It was good, period.  If the Macbook/MBP keyboards are so good, why do I have get used to it?

    Because that's how our hands work? 

    I'm a professional keyboard player. Believe me, I'm fairly experienced when it comes to how fingers adjust to different tactile responses, amounts of travel, feedback, stiffness, bounce, and attack. Every single mechanical piano, every single different type of keyboard, takes some adjusting. I'll need a few minutes of playing just to acclimatise to each of the three pianos I have at home — an old acoustic, a 1977 Mk 1 Fender Rhodes, and a CP70 — and I've been playing those for years. Not to mention the 'boards I have in the studio, or the ones I take on the road. 
    What you are saying then is that there is no good or bad keyboard or track pad, since at the end, you'll be get used to it.  I don't think that's right at all.  As you say, you'll get used to what ever you use daily.   
    No, that's not at all what I said, and I apologise for being unclear. 

    There are plenty of keyboards with just plain shitty action, and there is such a thing as personal preference. 

    But EVERY keyboard requires some acclimatisation time, and I believe you're mistaking a noticeably different feel for "a bad keyboard". 

    I have yet to read from anyone who hasn't come around on the MacBook Pro keyboard after a few days at the latest. 

    There are legitimate gripes with the set of compromises Apple chose in their MacBook Pro design (every design is inevitably a combination of compromises), but from my experience and what I'm seeing on the web, the keyboard isn't really one of them. 

    As I posted before, I haven't heard of someone that needed to get used to a Macbook trackpad or a Thinkpad keyboard.  And personally have experienced both, and you feel the difference compared to other devices.  For example, my Surface Pro has a thinner keyboard than the Macbook Pro, and still have a very nice feedback.  Same as the Lenovo X1 Carbon, that has better feedback, plus you can spill liquids without damaging the device.  That feeling is completely absent in the Macbook/MBP.

    I think it sounds like you haven't given it enough effort to do it judgment. 

    I knew that my Macbook Pro trackpad was better than any other device in just a few seconds. Same as the Thinkpad keyboard compared to other devices. Why will it take me days or weeks to get used to the keyboard if it was so good? And when you search on the internet, a lot of people agree with my experience.  When in the future I purchase my MBP 13", I know I'll get used to it, but ï'll know there is something better when I go back to type in the Thinkpad keyboards.  
    edited August 2017
  • Reply 67 of 75
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,399member
    No, your analogy is flawed because farmers occupy the entire venn diagram of "farmers." Now, making a tractor specifically for, say, a rutabaga farm probably isn't cost effective, and won't get made. Rutabaga farmers are a very small portion of the venn diagram of farmers.
    Interesting; I was taking the broader “consumption of food vs production of food” argument, but I see where you’re coming from. I think content creation is more a ‘wheat’ than a ‘rutabaga’, though.  ;) 
    I get no say in what they do.


    Or is that too tired an adage now?  :p
  • Reply 68 of 75
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 6,273member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    nht said:
    Huzzah. Most curious to hear how the haters and critics spin these facts to fit their narrative...

    I was amused to see how the haters on MR spun the increase in ipad sales — “This is just the cheap new ipad padding the numbers!” first time i’d heard of anyone criticizing Apple for offering cheap ipads! what will they complain about next?!!
    Avon will chime in that he provided no hard breakdown by units so it must just be spin and the new MBP sales in actuality sucked and all the sales the legacy MBP.
    I could chime in with a lot of things. Let's start with some hard facts as some comments seem to based on things that weren't made the way they are portrayed.

    After the disastrous Christmas episode which saw little of the Mac line updated, Apple reported earnings and claimed that most sales were to first time Mac buyers. In spite of pent up demand from Mac users, are we to understand that the majority of those existing mac users didn't actually bite even after the long wait? Those earnings could have been the worst Mac figures for a Christmas season in a very, very long time. Are we to believe that Windows switchers and computer newbies saved Apple's Christmas bacon?

    Basically, the only new Macs were the MacBook Pros with USB-C TB. In spite of most of the then current Mac line not having USB-C, the fervent ones quickly proclaimed anything non-USB C as 'legacy'. A strange claim when Apple, at that very time, was offering those same 'legacy' ports on, ehem, 'new' machines (although in reality they were basically the same ones that had on sale the previous Christmas - 2015). No wonder many Mac users passed on those machines during the Christmas 2016 period. But did they jump on the new models instead? It seems not if the majority of buyers were new to the Mac. But of course, we can't know because Apple doesn't provide that info.

    Months passed and finally we got the new, looooong awaited iMacs. Hooray! And they were half decent upgrades to boot. Double hooray! But, no doubt to the dismay of the fervent ones, they came with lots of legacy ports on them! Without doubt that put them in a bit of a predicament. Legacy wasn't legacy after all! Apple just did what most sane people expected from the outset. They added USB-C TB to the existing line. 'Pure Genius!' some might say, although the correct phrase would be better left at 'Elementary, dear Watson'.

    So what happened? Ah, my twisted theory is that while Jony Ive was busy designing his Christmas tree, someone at Apple decided to to do the right thing and transition to USB-C and got the new iMacs approved without making them even thinner! Of course it would also be logical to conclude that if those ports weren't legacy at all, then the MBP could have received a similar upgrade. A true transition in the true sense of the word. After all, at the time, the world wasn't exactly awash with devices that could take advantage of the ports. The world was awash (and still is!) with your standard slow speed gear which users had, and still have. Something that went completely over the heads of many people was that the ports themselves weren't even the issue. No one is or was anti-USB-C TB. That just wasn't the case. Never was.

    The fervent ones defended the new MBPs as best they could but many became obsessed with the dongle situation (probably hurt by Apple becoming an internet laughing stock at the time) but lost track of the fact that ports were not the only quibble. Price was another. And there were many others too.

    Some people weren't convinced by the processor situation and doubted about putting so much money into a new machine because they feared a revision in a few months might make their investment a bad one. People tried to allay those  fears by saying a processor change would only bring marginal improvements so it was a non-issue bla, bla, bla. 

    Apple duly updated those Macs and surprise, surprise, the performance improvement was actually rather noticeable. Ouch! But not to worry, those who invested in the previous iteration were good for years as Macs last so long! And look how thin they are! You can almost touch the glue through that silent  ;-) keyboard! Personally, being long in the tooth, I would look more closely at what Kabylake offered and see that if h.265 was important for you, then putting the purchase back might make more sense. It all depended on how long Apple would take to upgrade the machines, which in the end was no time at all. Is that a double ouch!? Perhaps, somewhat strange given the massive success of the line! Why fiddle with the line if it was blazing a trail of glory?  And they brought the baseline price down too. Something Apple is famed for when it has a roaring success on its hands. Not!

    People talk about 'whiners' (it's so easy to label people) but those same people are seemingly incapable of actually listening to what is being said. The reasons put on the table etc.

    I'm convinced that, as a result of people's geniune opinions, Apple has responded favourably on several fronts. They admitted to the press (yes, the press, no less!) that the 'innovative' Mac Pro design had backed them into a corner. They promised to fix that. This was a totally unprecedented move by Apple but it didn't stop there. At the introduction of the new iMacs, they even provided some details on a new breed of iMac which would be released at a much later date. I wonder why these things ever happened? There was no real need for it. Surely it wasn't due to the whiners! Heaven forbid. This isn't the same as with the HomePod. With that, Apple is late to the game and needed to put the product on the radar. A wise move, especially after hinting that such a device wasn't really necessary.

    So here we are in the run up to the end of the year and we will possibly have those legacy ports into 2018. Who would have thought that by reading comments here from 2016?

    After all the fuss about the new MBPs, and Phil Schiller desperately trying to douse the flames by actually coming out and publicly saying how great sales of the new machines were, even though he only had a few days sales data to go on (yes, the devil is in the details, as always), just made a rod for his own back. He really should have followed up on those comments. He didn't.

    Apple's refusal to break figures down is nothing new but they could have easily made a small exception for the new MBP given the furor around them. 'Slim chance of that' you might say, but would it be slimmer than Apple calling a meeting with tech journalists to tell the world how wrong they got it with the Mac Pro? Slimmer than them announcing a major new product line months in advance?

    So. Sales. I have yet to see a new MBP outside an AppleStore. That isn't normal so long after release. I don't live under a rock and I travel a lot. It might not mean much but, for me, it remains very unusual.

    Are the MBPs flying off the shelves? I very much doubt it. The processor upgrade, a far better iMac line and a reduction in the entry level price of the MBP probably helped out across the board, but as I've said before and so many times, sales are only part of the picture. The sales you don't get are equally important and knowing why you don't get them is key.

    Luca said: "Thanks to great performance from the new MacBook Pro we generated 7 percent revenue growth over last year".

    Is that growth in MBP revenue, or is it the 7% growth across the board that is mentioned in the opener?

    It seems like a very vague, almost empty statement to make, and 7% is giving a new definition to 'great' in my book. And if we're talking MBP growth over the same period last year,  perhaps it would have been better not to say anything. Or perhaps I'm just not seeing something that is so evident it becomes invisible. To be absolutely honest I haven't perused anything in these last calls.

    I vote with my money. I don't like the new MBPs for a host of reasons and will not buy one today. My opinion hasn't changed in the slightest since they were released.

    People say 'you're not Apple's target' which is fine - to a point - but given what has happened since last November it might be better to reserve those 'absolute' claims for a little longer in an attempt to avoid egg on one's face because many of things people have said since last November, that would never happen, actually have!

    There are signs of very slight change at Apple. Perhaps they are inching out of the 'only premium' corner some say they backed themselves into over the last few years. 

    The MBA refuses to die. People were saying it was EOL no sooner had the new MBs and MBPs arrived. That was 2016. It might now stay around until 2018, I don't know. What I do know is that those people who said it was dead, were simply wrong. The fact that it got an update (albeit minuscule) said a lot. 

    The 'low end' could very well be saving the day. We can't know but the entry level price reduction on the MBP wasn't necessary, right? Such was the popularity of the range, even with the eye watering price tags.

    People said Apple doesn't make things 'fatter' and if you don't like thin, 'Apple isn't for you'. They forget that even the iPhone has got fatter in the past. They don't want to see that the iPad got fatter. People say 'premium' is all Apple does and forget that the new entry level iPad was designed (and priced) for the non-premium market. They forget that the iPhone 6 is receiving a major marketing push right now at affordable prices.  As mentioned, the Air refuses to die. This all goes against the grain of the people who throw absolutes around. Apple is definitely realising that they cannot keep going as a premium only brand. It has most of its eggs in the iPhone basket and when the bottom falls out of that basket things won't be nice for them on Wall Street, or anywhere.

    Am I wrong to say 'when' instead of 'if' here? Only an utter fool would say (today) that Apple can replicate the same success of the last 8 years in the coming 8 years. They absolutely have to reduce dependency on the 'premium' iPhone as the competition has pulled up its socks and China remains flat and with no signs of changing. Isn't that what Time Cook himself said?

    We are still missing the large screen affordable iPhone and the Mini, and in the absence of some kind of AR headset/glasses I think the iPad would actually be well suited for something like AR, especially the iPad Mini (as strange as that might sound seeing as so many think it is already dead).

    In conclusion, did sales of the new MBP sky rocket after launch? No (if they had, Schiller would have had tweet orgasm over it). Has the price reduction and Kabylake upgrade kept MBP momentum going? Probably. Has the iMac refresh helped? Of course. Have the iPhone 7/7+ been the real backbone of this quarter? That's clear. Are people holding off iPhone purchases until the September/October announcements? That's also clear. Will we see slight improvements and price adjustments to the iMac/MBP/MB for the Christmas season. I hope so.

    So to sum up, yeah, you were right, LOL. Apple still hasn't put any real numbers on the table (understandably or not) but there is nothing there to say the new MBP has been a massive seller and I do actually believe they could sell a lot more than they currently do.

    This is my opinion of course and as I'm just not interested in the current MBP for so many reasons, I haven't bothered to fact check everything. I'm speaking from memory but I'm sure you'll correct me if there is something factually incorrect. LOL.











    Most of your screed is pure CT, a great deal of very poor analysis of facts, and frankly numbers of falsehoods, and of course, I disagree with what you and every other so called expert states abput Apple Marketing.

    Still, after all that you have accused Apple of, do you really believe that Luca lied to shareholders about MBP sales?

    Just for the record, Apple is generating more revenue and profits on the Apple Watch than MS is generating on its entire surface line. I just threw that out there because I could.
    To be honest, I'm just trying to understand what he wanted to say. 

    As I said, maybe there is something blatantly obvious that I'm not seeing.
  • Reply 69 of 75
    BigDann said:
    macxpress said:
    But but...the MacBook Pro is overpriced and the dongle hell issue keeps everyone from buying them! And those iMacs...gosh, those are just so lame today! 

    Where are all of these people who basically said the new MacBook Pro will be a failure because of its lack of ports, you need a dongle for everything, its way too expensive? And don't give me this crap about well what if it had more ports and was cheaper, they'd sell twice as much. Thats absolute pure BS! That touch bar is just a gimmick and won't help sell the MacBook Pro. 

    Where are these people now? All quiet with their tail between their legs in defeat as usual. They never learn. Apple know its market a hell of a lot better than any one of us here. They see things we will never see. They have more data than we could possibly ever get. We need to stop trying to run Apple to suit our own needs. Our needs may not be the needs of the majority which is a hell of a lot more important to Apple as a company than a very small set of customers. 
    >>> Almost... The truth is sometimes somewhere between! The sales force market is what Apple sold to, not the real heavy-weigh creatives! Apple saw the MacBook Air & MacBook (new) is what the sales force types want in size & weight with the performance of a MacBook Pro! Thats what Apple created and it sold to as it was the bigger market. <<< >>> If you are a real creative type or engineer the New MacBook Pro's fell short. They are the ones that have a big need in using ports and need gobs of RAM (video editing) This is the group Apple did not sell to. Apple needs to create a Pro's Pro (i'll call it the MacBook Pro-X) hitting all of the points Apple failed to address. <<< >>> Yes! The creative & engineering users are vocal as they are in need of better gear too! <<< >>> As an example the company I work for will be dropping 300+ MacBook Pro's and going to HP & Dell laptops. We just can't wait any more, 3 years in limbo! Our needs are ports Type A USB without dongles, removable storage (security) and long battery life. Within the next year or so I will likely loose my job because of the hardware switch. If Apple came out with the MacBook Pro-X I know the pro's would run and buy it. If it had come out in the spring our company would have bought replacements for what we have in the field and then some! And I would still a bright future supporting them all. <<<
    A USB-C to USB-B cable is $6. USB-C to micro-USB-B is $5. No dongles required. If you need 300 of them, you can probably get them cheaper.

    Removable storage you won't find with a drive that has the speed of the MacBook Pro SSD, and you won't find in HP or Dell's workstations. Apple's battery life is best in class. Regarding RAM, talk to Intel. Kaby Lake doesn't support 32GB of LPDDR3 RAM, and to get there with LPDDR4 is two chip generations away. Other machines that can do it use a separate controller, and you won't get MacBook Pro battery life.

    The Dell i7 15-inch with 32GB of RAM, and a slower 512GB SSD? It's $2899. It has a four-hour battery life.

    If this is accurate, and I have no reason to believe it's not, your management and/or ownership are full of it and just want to be rid of Macs.

    These Pros screaming for 32GB of RAM and beefy Apple hardware will need to put their money where their mouth is, and do it soon. The vast majority of Apple's market has spoken whether we like it or not. These Pros? They are in the low single-digits of 10 percent of Apple's business from a dollar perspective. At best, given Apple's own numbers, 0.5 percent, at best.
    I wholeheartedly agree. We keep hearing about this, but Windows PC sales are still falling and we have yet to see a significant uptick in high end pc sales, excluding the Surface, which has the same design cues and "limitations" of Macbooks and Macbook Pros.

    The reality is that for 95 percent of users, a Macbook Pro in it's current state is just fine if not overkill, and this goes even for Computer Science students like myself.

     I'm glad Apple dropped the extra ports - just like the headphone jack, I barely even notice now.  To summarize, "The Professional market" is just another term for a vocal minority of screeching internet nerds, angered by the lack of ports from 2005.
    tmay
  • Reply 70 of 75
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,399member
    propellerhead said:
    "The Professional market" is just another term for a vocal minority of screeching internet nerds, angered by the lack of ports from 2005.
    Or, you know, not having any form of expandability whatsoever, relegating computers to triennial/quintennial disposable items.
  • Reply 71 of 75
    nhtnht Posts: 4,522member
    propellerhead said:
    "The Professional market" is just another term for a vocal minority of screeching internet nerds, angered by the lack of ports from 2005.
    Or, you know, not having any form of expandability whatsoever, relegating computers to triennial/quintennial disposable items.
    Expandability has come full circle with the original 128K Mac design: via ports.

    When eGPUs officially become part of MacOS my Core i7 2013 MBP can get a 2018 GPU and be about as good as a top end 2018 Core i5 MBP using a TB3 to TB2 adapter.

    Around 2012 or so I said I thought I would move to the MBA by now based on the demo of editing 4K video via TB and a red rocket but the 2017 MBP is thin and light enough I'm willing to get it instead.

    http://gizmodo.com/5879314/how-is-this-supercharged-macbook-air-editing-crazy-hd-video

    I had already opted for the 2010 15" instead of replacing my older 2007 17" MBP with another behemoth.  Anyone that travels with a laptop wants thinner and lighter.  Especially if trying to get any work done while flying coach.

    My 2017 15" MBP is a very good balance between power and travel weight.  An iPad and a USB-C travel hub gives me a 2nd display and all the connectivity I need for drives, flash sticks or Ethernet.


    tmay
  • Reply 72 of 75
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,399member
    nht said:
    Around 2012 or so I said I thought I would move to the MBA… …but the 2017 MBP is thin and light enough…
    Yeah, I’m sensing a death knell for the Air in the very near future since it’s now the heaviest and thickest laptop they sell. Seriously. Okay, the 15” Pro is 2 pounds heavier and 0.03 in thicker. Big whoop. Progress has bypassed the Air. It has been replaced by the iPad and the MacBook.
  • Reply 73 of 75
    macxpress said:
    But but...the MacBook Pro is overpriced and the dongle hell issue keeps everyone from buying them! And those iMacs...gosh, those are just so lame today! 

    Where are all of these people who basically said the new MacBook Pro will be a failure because of its lack of ports, you need a dongle for everything, its way too expensive? And don't give me this crap about well what if it had more ports and was cheaper, they'd sell twice as much. Thats absolute pure BS! That touch bar is just a gimmick and won't help sell the MacBook Pro. 

    Where are these people now? All quiet with their tail between their legs in defeat as usual. They never learn. Apple know its market a hell of a lot better than any one of us here. They see things we will never see. They have more data than we could possibly ever get. We need to stop trying to run Apple to suit our own needs. Our needs may not be the needs of the majority which is a hell of a lot more important to Apple as a company than a very small set of customers. 
    Um, although AI makes it sound like Mac sales are greater than ever, the truth is it's stuck at levels from 2011, when the company was much much smaller. Peak Macbook sales were in 2014-2015, when they had normal ports and even with the drag of outdated cpu/gpus. As a faithful Macbook owner who has bought a Macbook in 2010, 2011, 2012, 2014, I've yet to buy one of the new ones and probably won't until something really forces my hand. Why? The dang ports.
  • Reply 74 of 75
    nhtnht Posts: 4,522member
    macxpress said:
    But but...the MacBook Pro is overpriced and the dongle hell issue keeps everyone from buying them! And those iMacs...gosh, those are just so lame today! 

    Where are all of these people who basically said the new MacBook Pro will be a failure because of its lack of ports, you need a dongle for everything, its way too expensive? And don't give me this crap about well what if it had more ports and was cheaper, they'd sell twice as much. Thats absolute pure BS! That touch bar is just a gimmick and won't help sell the MacBook Pro. 

    Where are these people now? All quiet with their tail between their legs in defeat as usual. They never learn. Apple know its market a hell of a lot better than any one of us here. They see things we will never see. They have more data than we could possibly ever get. We need to stop trying to run Apple to suit our own needs. Our needs may not be the needs of the majority which is a hell of a lot more important to Apple as a company than a very small set of customers. 
    Um, although AI makes it sound like Mac sales are greater than ever, the truth is it's stuck at levels from 2011, when the company was much much smaller. Peak Macbook sales were in 2014-2015, when they had normal ports and even with the drag of outdated cpu/gpus. As a faithful Macbook owner who has bought a Macbook in 2010, 2011, 2012, 2014, I've yet to buy one of the new ones and probably won't until something really forces my hand. Why? The dang ports.
    Weird.  As someone who schlepped my 2013 MBP home and work every day and reconnected 4 damn cords every day (MagSafe, HDMI/mDP, Ethernet dongle), USB because I didn't want work to pony up $400 for two TB2 docks (while two USB-C dell docks is $160) I think the biggest benefit to moving to the 2017 is finally one cord connection for everything at a reasonable cost.
  • Reply 75 of 75
    welshdogwelshdog Posts: 1,832member
    •As others have pointed out video editing does not require "gobs of RAM". Apple handles RAM very efficiently and the super fast SSD and associated bus alleviate pressure on editing software.
    •I find the keyboard on my 15" MBP 2017 to be outstanding - I am typing much faster on it than my 2010 MBP.
    •Lack of Magsafe is still a fear/annoyance, but since there are ports on both sides of the machine I can plug in on the side away from the edge of the sofa or desk, thus reducing the chance of a cable getting snagged on the dog or my leg.
    • I see the ports issue as an early adopter sacrifice. It's a minor thing for me, but I understand how it could be a concern for some easily annoyed or flummoxed people.
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