PSA: Thunderbolt 3 cables longer than 0.5m generally don't support USB 3.1 speeds

13

Comments

  • Reply 41 of 63
    BittySon said:
    BittySon said:
    Thanks Mike, important topic but still a pretty confusing, not so much your TB3 descriptions but your USB 3.1 descriptions.  You say  USB 3.1 Type C can be 5 or 10 Gbps, the first supposedly USB 3.1 Type-C Gen 1.  Is the 10 Gbps Gen 2, and how do you tell those apart?  And you say that active TB3 cables are not USB 3.1 Type C "compatible"?  What does that mean?  In what way not compatible?  What speed will then run, what wattage will they support?  Any?  None?  A bit more specificity would be super.
    USB 3.1 type-C generation 2 is 10Gbps. You can't tell them apart externally, until you plug them in.

    Active TB3 cables can't be used as USB 3.1 type-C data cables, full stop. You literally cannot connect to a USB 3.1 type-C device with one. Only Thunderbolt to Thunderbolt. They can be used as charging cables, and the wattage will vary based on the manufacturer.
    I'm just trying to square that with something you wrote back in October, regarding the Macbook Pro with TouchBar:  "Thunderbolt 3 is twice as fast as Thunderbolt 2, and uses the same physical connector. Since the connectors are shared, and Thunderbolt 3 contains USB 3.1 generation 2, users can plug in a USB 3.1 Generation 2 Type-C connector and get the same connectivity as always."  Just trying to understand.  And to figure out what my MPB 13 with TB actually has for connectors.
    Because it has four thunderbolt 3 ports
  • Reply 42 of 63
    staticx57 said:
    BittySon said:
    BittySon said:
    Thanks Mike, important topic but still a pretty confusing, not so much your TB3 descriptions but your USB 3.1 descriptions.  You say  USB 3.1 Type C can be 5 or 10 Gbps, the first supposedly USB 3.1 Type-C Gen 1.  Is the 10 Gbps Gen 2, and how do you tell those apart?  And you say that active TB3 cables are not USB 3.1 Type C "compatible"?  What does that mean?  In what way not compatible?  What speed will then run, what wattage will they support?  Any?  None?  A bit more specificity would be super.
    USB 3.1 type-C generation 2 is 10Gbps. You can't tell them apart externally, until you plug them in.

    Active TB3 cables can't be used as USB 3.1 type-C data cables, full stop. You literally cannot connect to a USB 3.1 type-C device with one. Only Thunderbolt to Thunderbolt. They can be used as charging cables, and the wattage will vary based on the manufacturer.
    I'm just trying to square that with something you wrote back in October, regarding the Macbook Pro with TouchBar:  "Thunderbolt 3 is twice as fast as Thunderbolt 2, and uses the same physical connector. Since the connectors are shared, and Thunderbolt 3 contains USB 3.1 generation 2, users can plug in a USB 3.1 Generation 2 Type-C connector and get the same connectivity as always."  Just trying to understand.  And to figure out what my MPB 13 with TB actually has for connectors.
    Because it has four thunderbolt 3 ports
    Yeah?  Well, then there's this from Apple:  MacBook Pro (13-inch, 2016, Four Thunderbolt 3 Ports) supports Thunderbolt 3 at full performance using the two left-hand ports. The two right-hand ports deliver Thunderbolt 3 functionality, but have reduced PCI Express bandwidth.
  • Reply 43 of 63
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 6,858administrator
    BittySon said:
    BittySon said:
    Thanks Mike, important topic but still a pretty confusing, not so much your TB3 descriptions but your USB 3.1 descriptions.  You say  USB 3.1 Type C can be 5 or 10 Gbps, the first supposedly USB 3.1 Type-C Gen 1.  Is the 10 Gbps Gen 2, and how do you tell those apart?  And you say that active TB3 cables are not USB 3.1 Type C "compatible"?  What does that mean?  In what way not compatible?  What speed will then run, what wattage will they support?  Any?  None?  A bit more specificity would be super.
    USB 3.1 type-C generation 2 is 10Gbps. You can't tell them apart externally, until you plug them in.

    Active TB3 cables can't be used as USB 3.1 type-C data cables, full stop. You literally cannot connect to a USB 3.1 type-C device with one. Only Thunderbolt to Thunderbolt. They can be used as charging cables, and the wattage will vary based on the manufacturer.
    I'm just trying to square that with something you wrote back in October, regarding the Macbook Pro with TouchBar:  "Thunderbolt 3 is twice as fast as Thunderbolt 2, and uses the same physical connector. Since the connectors are shared, and Thunderbolt 3 contains USB 3.1 generation 2, users can plug in a USB 3.1 Generation 2 Type-C connector and get the same connectivity as always."  Just trying to understand.  And to figure out what my MPB 13 with TB actually has for connectors.
    The statement stands as-is. You can plug in a USB 3.1 Type C cable into a Thunderbolt 3 port and it will work. However, if you plug in an active Thunderbolt 3 cable and try to use it as a USB 3.1 Type C cable, it won't, as a cable with the active circuitry isn't backwards compatible.

    Remember, USB-C only describes the physicality of the connector. It means absolutely nothing regarding charging, protocol, or data rate. Thunderbolt 3 is ALWAYS USB-C. But, USB 3.1 IS NOT ALWAYS USB-C.

    Your 2016 and 2017 13-inch MBP has Thunderbolt 3.
    edited August 2017 fastasleepwatto_cobra
  • Reply 44 of 63
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member
    nht said:
    melgross said:
    Thank you for illustrating what an unmitigated disaster USB-C is. 
    USB C isn’t an unmitigated disaster. It’s an evolving standard, the way scsi was, and FireWire was, and as were many other standards. Perhaps if computer technology wasn’t itself evolving so rapidly, these standards would be fixed for longer periods, but it is, and they aren’t.
    USB-C has been awesome. Power and data on one cable.  TB3 has been pretty optional so far but I'm not using a 5K display.  My first TB3 device is likely a eGPU box.

    some folks want to be outraged so any bit of friction is the end of the world.
    That’s true. Some people just like to complain. And the problem with closed standards is that, these days, given the rapid development in all technology, they don’t last long.

    we can look to Tv to see that. We had NTSC for so long - decades in fact. But when hi def came out, it was decided to not standardize on one resolution or color standard, but to allow the spec to upgrade with technology. We used to be able to buy a Tv and expect it to last 15 years, maybe more. Not anymore. Why should cabling be any different? Look at HDMI. I’ve got a big box of SCSI cables. They’re useless, and a couple of those last Adaptec cables cost almost $200, more today. But it is what it is. We didn’t complain at the time. But people today think that a $25 cable is expensive, which is a joke. I’ve got draws of cables for usb and FireWire. i label each one when I get them so I know which does what, and throw away all the older ones. So I threw away all my usb 1 and 1.1 cables when I bought usb 2 cables. I’m throwing all my usb 2 cables away now as I replace them with usb 3 cables, and I’ll be throwing away all of those as newer usb 3 and USB C cables replace them. Such is progress. It doesn’t help to complain.
    edited August 2017 watto_cobraanome
  • Reply 45 of 63
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member

    techrider said:
    Appreciate the PSA.

    The Belkin Thunderbolt 3 dock was recently reviewed.  It comes with a TB cable that's 3.3' long, but it's not specified if this cable achieves the 40Gbps performance advertised on the box.  What is that included cable's speed, power, and active/passive specs?  I can confirm it is compatible with a 2017 MacBook Pro 13", but understandably not with a 2015 MacBook 12".

    Seems the 'universal' in USB-C doesn't mean much anymore.  Beyond the lack of clearly visible specifications for cables with a USB-C connector, Belkin's TB3 dock is only for certain Macs, while Dell's TB3 dock is only for Dell laptops, etc...

    Since the TB3 announcement I've mistakenly looked forward to eventually buying one TB3 dock that would work with any TB3-equipped Apple, Dell, Lenovo, HP, Panasonic, etc. computer.  Not anymore.
    Hm, I thought I posted about this yesterday. Guess not. 

    Anyway, the Belkin cable is a 1-meter active 40Gbps cable capable of 87W.

    Every dock we've tested works on Windows. However -- you're right. The Dell only works on the Dell machines it was intended for, and the Lenovo only works on Windows.


    It would be nice if you could describe, and perhaps show, your testing lab. A number of other sites have done that. Most people here don’t really see AI as a site that does technical work in this way, so it would be interesting to give us a look into what you do, and how you do it.
  • Reply 46 of 63
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member
    BittySon said:
    staticx57 said:
    BittySon said:
    BittySon said:
    Thanks Mike, important topic but still a pretty confusing, not so much your TB3 descriptions but your USB 3.1 descriptions.  You say  USB 3.1 Type C can be 5 or 10 Gbps, the first supposedly USB 3.1 Type-C Gen 1.  Is the 10 Gbps Gen 2, and how do you tell those apart?  And you say that active TB3 cables are not USB 3.1 Type C "compatible"?  What does that mean?  In what way not compatible?  What speed will then run, what wattage will they support?  Any?  None?  A bit more specificity would be super.
    USB 3.1 type-C generation 2 is 10Gbps. You can't tell them apart externally, until you plug them in.

    Active TB3 cables can't be used as USB 3.1 type-C data cables, full stop. You literally cannot connect to a USB 3.1 type-C device with one. Only Thunderbolt to Thunderbolt. They can be used as charging cables, and the wattage will vary based on the manufacturer.
    I'm just trying to square that with something you wrote back in October, regarding the Macbook Pro with TouchBar:  "Thunderbolt 3 is twice as fast as Thunderbolt 2, and uses the same physical connector. Since the connectors are shared, and Thunderbolt 3 contains USB 3.1 generation 2, users can plug in a USB 3.1 Generation 2 Type-C connector and get the same connectivity as always."  Just trying to understand.  And to figure out what my MPB 13 with TB actually has for connectors.
    Because it has four thunderbolt 3 ports
    Yeah?  Well, then there's this from Apple:  MacBook Pro (13-inch, 2016, Four Thunderbolt 3 Ports) supports Thunderbolt 3 at full performance using the two left-hand ports. The two right-hand ports deliver Thunderbolt 3 functionality, but have reduced PCI Express bandwidth.
    This is because a mobile Thunderbolt chip can support two Thunderbolt ports, one at full speed, and one at reduced speed. Apple uses two chips. These are two different chips, one is for desktops, and that can support two ports at full speed, but uses a lot of power. The second is what Apple uses for their laptops, because it uses less power which is obviously important in a mobile device. We’re talking several watts here per chip.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 47 of 63
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 6,858administrator
    melgross said:

    techrider said:
    Appreciate the PSA.

    The Belkin Thunderbolt 3 dock was recently reviewed.  It comes with a TB cable that's 3.3' long, but it's not specified if this cable achieves the 40Gbps performance advertised on the box.  What is that included cable's speed, power, and active/passive specs?  I can confirm it is compatible with a 2017 MacBook Pro 13", but understandably not with a 2015 MacBook 12".

    Seems the 'universal' in USB-C doesn't mean much anymore.  Beyond the lack of clearly visible specifications for cables with a USB-C connector, Belkin's TB3 dock is only for certain Macs, while Dell's TB3 dock is only for Dell laptops, etc...

    Since the TB3 announcement I've mistakenly looked forward to eventually buying one TB3 dock that would work with any TB3-equipped Apple, Dell, Lenovo, HP, Panasonic, etc. computer.  Not anymore.
    Hm, I thought I posted about this yesterday. Guess not. 

    Anyway, the Belkin cable is a 1-meter active 40Gbps cable capable of 87W.

    Every dock we've tested works on Windows. However -- you're right. The Dell only works on the Dell machines it was intended for, and the Lenovo only works on Windows.


    It would be nice if you could describe, and perhaps show, your testing lab. A number of other sites have done that. Most people here don’t really see AI as a site that does technical work in this way, so it would be interesting to give us a look into what you do, and how you do it.
    If I didn't share my testing workbench space with three kids, a basset hound, a lego inventory, a sous vide setup, a pile of anti-epileptic medicine and research for my oldest, and assorted other projects, I'd take a picture.

    An Ikea catalog it ain't. You all have, however, seen my workspace. If you see that white desk, that's where I'm sitting, right this minute.

    My primary testing machines are a 5,1 Mac Pro heavily upgraded with 12 cores and 32GB of RAM (for no real reason other than I could), a 2015 and 2016 15-inch MacBook Pro, a quad-core 2012 Mac mini with a Thunderbolt 3 (adapted down to TB2) RAID array with 5TB hard drives, an unpopulated eSATA 5-bay RAID enclosure connected with a Thunderbolt 2 adapter when need be, a gigabit wired network, and three Airport Extreme base stations connected to a FiOS gigabit connection.

    Also on the network are four third-generation Apple TVs, two second-generation Apple TVs, two fourth-generation Apple TVs, a 3,1 Mac Pro with backup drives, a Kangaroo PC connected to a 50-inch touchscreen for assorted emulation and gaming projects, an Xbox One, an original Xbox, an Xbox 360, and a PlayStation 4. I have a gaming PC, but I've stripped out the video card for eGPU testing, so it at the moment is offline.

    A Brother and HP laser printer are available -- I forget the models at the moment.

    The house contains a 12.9-inch iPad Pro, a new iPad, two iPad Airs (kids). Also installed are an Amazon Echo, and two Amazon Fire TV streamers.

    All the HDMI video and audio is routed through a Denon AVR-S900W receiver, to an Acer B286HK and CB281HK display. The MacBook pro connects through the OWC Thunderbolt 3 dock (in an extended test for a later piece) and it in turn connects to the same displays with DisplayPort.

    A rolling quantity of gear comes through. Most of it has to go back to the vendor when we're done. A note for all -- if you're getting into tech reporting for free stuff, you're doing it wrong. There is no flood of it.

    This is my job, and has been for some time, which is why I have all this stuff. I've been doing tech analysis for over 20 years. First as an auxiliary duty in the Navy, then privately, then at MacNN in 2012, and here at AI after MacNN closed. My first Apple dealership stint was in 1987-1989, then twice more in the 2000s -- all at independent shops and never at Apple retail.

    The other testing lab I've used for RF work with the LG 5K Ultrafine display is courtesy U.S. military -- and you won't be getting any shots of that.

    Anybody can do news. Anybody can benchmark. Not everybody can break down stuff as it applies to users, unless you are one.

    Does that work?
    edited August 2017 avon b7fastasleep
  • Reply 48 of 63
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 6,858administrator

    melgross said:
    BittySon said:
    staticx57 said:
    BittySon said:
    BittySon said:
    Thanks Mike, important topic but still a pretty confusing, not so much your TB3 descriptions but your USB 3.1 descriptions.  You say  USB 3.1 Type C can be 5 or 10 Gbps, the first supposedly USB 3.1 Type-C Gen 1.  Is the 10 Gbps Gen 2, and how do you tell those apart?  And you say that active TB3 cables are not USB 3.1 Type C "compatible"?  What does that mean?  In what way not compatible?  What speed will then run, what wattage will they support?  Any?  None?  A bit more specificity would be super.
    USB 3.1 type-C generation 2 is 10Gbps. You can't tell them apart externally, until you plug them in.

    Active TB3 cables can't be used as USB 3.1 type-C data cables, full stop. You literally cannot connect to a USB 3.1 type-C device with one. Only Thunderbolt to Thunderbolt. They can be used as charging cables, and the wattage will vary based on the manufacturer.
    I'm just trying to square that with something you wrote back in October, regarding the Macbook Pro with TouchBar:  "Thunderbolt 3 is twice as fast as Thunderbolt 2, and uses the same physical connector. Since the connectors are shared, and Thunderbolt 3 contains USB 3.1 generation 2, users can plug in a USB 3.1 Generation 2 Type-C connector and get the same connectivity as always."  Just trying to understand.  And to figure out what my MPB 13 with TB actually has for connectors.
    Because it has four thunderbolt 3 ports
    Yeah?  Well, then there's this from Apple:  MacBook Pro (13-inch, 2016, Four Thunderbolt 3 Ports) supports Thunderbolt 3 at full performance using the two left-hand ports. The two right-hand ports deliver Thunderbolt 3 functionality, but have reduced PCI Express bandwidth.
    This is because a mobile Thunderbolt chip can support two Thunderbolt ports, one at full speed, and one at reduced speed. Apple uses two chips. These are two different chips, one is for desktops, and that can support two ports at full speed, but uses a lot of power. The second is what Apple uses for their laptops, because it uses less power which is obviously important in a mobile device. We’re talking several watts here per chip.
    The controllers are identical. What's different are the PCI-E channels allocated to the ports, as the dual-core processors have fewer than the quad-core.
    edited August 2017 avon b7
  • Reply 49 of 63

    melgross said:
    BittySon said:
    staticx57 said:
    BittySon said:
    BittySon said:
    Thanks Mike, important topic but still a pretty confusing, not so much your TB3 descriptions but your USB 3.1 descriptions.  You say  USB 3.1 Type C can be 5 or 10 Gbps, the first supposedly USB 3.1 Type-C Gen 1.  Is the 10 Gbps Gen 2, and how do you tell those apart?  And you say that active TB3 cables are not USB 3.1 Type C "compatible"?  What does that mean?  In what way not compatible?  What speed will then run, what wattage will they support?  Any?  None?  A bit more specificity would be super.
    USB 3.1 type-C generation 2 is 10Gbps. You can't tell them apart externally, until you plug them in.

    Active TB3 cables can't be used as USB 3.1 type-C data cables, full stop. You literally cannot connect to a USB 3.1 type-C device with one. Only Thunderbolt to Thunderbolt. They can be used as charging cables, and the wattage will vary based on the manufacturer.
    I'm just trying to square that with something you wrote back in October, regarding the Macbook Pro with TouchBar:  "Thunderbolt 3 is twice as fast as Thunderbolt 2, and uses the same physical connector. Since the connectors are shared, and Thunderbolt 3 contains USB 3.1 generation 2, users can plug in a USB 3.1 Generation 2 Type-C connector and get the same connectivity as always."  Just trying to understand.  And to figure out what my MPB 13 with TB actually has for connectors.
    Because it has four thunderbolt 3 ports
    Yeah?  Well, then there's this from Apple:  MacBook Pro (13-inch, 2016, Four Thunderbolt 3 Ports) supports Thunderbolt 3 at full performance using the two left-hand ports. The two right-hand ports deliver Thunderbolt 3 functionality, but have reduced PCI Express bandwidth.
    This is because a mobile Thunderbolt chip can support two Thunderbolt ports, one at full speed, and one at reduced speed. Apple uses two chips. These are two different chips, one is for desktops, and that can support two ports at full speed, but uses a lot of power. The second is what Apple uses for their laptops, because it uses less power which is obviously important in a mobile device. We’re talking several watts here per chip.
    The controllers are identical. What's different are the PCI-E channels allocated to the ports, as the dual-core processors have fewer than the quad-core.
    The PCI-E channel limitation of dual-core processors I understand.  What I've never seen an answer to is HOW MUCH is the speed reduced in the crippled ports?  Does this effectively turn them into USB 3.1 Type C Gen 2 ports?  Specifically, what functionality do and don't these "Thunderbolt 3" kinda sorta ports have?
  • Reply 50 of 63
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 6,858administrator
    BittySon said:

    melgross said:
    BittySon said:
    staticx57 said:
    BittySon said:
    BittySon said:
    Thanks Mike, important topic but still a pretty confusing, not so much your TB3 descriptions but your USB 3.1 descriptions.  You say  USB 3.1 Type C can be 5 or 10 Gbps, the first supposedly USB 3.1 Type-C Gen 1.  Is the 10 Gbps Gen 2, and how do you tell those apart?  And you say that active TB3 cables are not USB 3.1 Type C "compatible"?  What does that mean?  In what way not compatible?  What speed will then run, what wattage will they support?  Any?  None?  A bit more specificity would be super.
    USB 3.1 type-C generation 2 is 10Gbps. You can't tell them apart externally, until you plug them in.

    Active TB3 cables can't be used as USB 3.1 type-C data cables, full stop. You literally cannot connect to a USB 3.1 type-C device with one. Only Thunderbolt to Thunderbolt. They can be used as charging cables, and the wattage will vary based on the manufacturer.
    I'm just trying to square that with something you wrote back in October, regarding the Macbook Pro with TouchBar:  "Thunderbolt 3 is twice as fast as Thunderbolt 2, and uses the same physical connector. Since the connectors are shared, and Thunderbolt 3 contains USB 3.1 generation 2, users can plug in a USB 3.1 Generation 2 Type-C connector and get the same connectivity as always."  Just trying to understand.  And to figure out what my MPB 13 with TB actually has for connectors.
    Because it has four thunderbolt 3 ports
    Yeah?  Well, then there's this from Apple:  MacBook Pro (13-inch, 2016, Four Thunderbolt 3 Ports) supports Thunderbolt 3 at full performance using the two left-hand ports. The two right-hand ports deliver Thunderbolt 3 functionality, but have reduced PCI Express bandwidth.
    This is because a mobile Thunderbolt chip can support two Thunderbolt ports, one at full speed, and one at reduced speed. Apple uses two chips. These are two different chips, one is for desktops, and that can support two ports at full speed, but uses a lot of power. The second is what Apple uses for their laptops, because it uses less power which is obviously important in a mobile device. We’re talking several watts here per chip.
    The controllers are identical. What's different are the PCI-E channels allocated to the ports, as the dual-core processors have fewer than the quad-core.
    The PCI-E channel limitation of dual-core processors I understand.  What I've never seen an answer to is HOW MUCH is the speed reduced in the crippled ports?  Does this effectively turn them into USB 3.1 Type C Gen 2 ports?  Specifically, what functionality do and don't these "Thunderbolt 3" kinda sorta ports have?
    They are basically 24gbit/sec ports. Still twice as fast as USB 3.1 Type C Gen 2. More than enough for a single 4K or even a beefy RAID per port.
    BittySonBittySon
  • Reply 51 of 63
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member
    melgross said:

    techrider said:
    Appreciate the PSA.

    The Belkin Thunderbolt 3 dock was recently reviewed.  It comes with a TB cable that's 3.3' long, but it's not specified if this cable achieves the 40Gbps performance advertised on the box.  What is that included cable's speed, power, and active/passive specs?  I can confirm it is compatible with a 2017 MacBook Pro 13", but understandably not with a 2015 MacBook 12".

    Seems the 'universal' in USB-C doesn't mean much anymore.  Beyond the lack of clearly visible specifications for cables with a USB-C connector, Belkin's TB3 dock is only for certain Macs, while Dell's TB3 dock is only for Dell laptops, etc...

    Since the TB3 announcement I've mistakenly looked forward to eventually buying one TB3 dock that would work with any TB3-equipped Apple, Dell, Lenovo, HP, Panasonic, etc. computer.  Not anymore.
    Hm, I thought I posted about this yesterday. Guess not. 

    Anyway, the Belkin cable is a 1-meter active 40Gbps cable capable of 87W.

    Every dock we've tested works on Windows. However -- you're right. The Dell only works on the Dell machines it was intended for, and the Lenovo only works on Windows.


    It would be nice if you could describe, and perhaps show, your testing lab. A number of other sites have done that. Most people here don’t really see AI as a site that does technical work in this way, so it would be interesting to give us a look into what you do, and how you do it.
    If I didn't share my testing workbench space with three kids, a basset hound, a lego inventory, a sous vide setup, a pile of anti-epileptic medicine and research for my oldest, and assorted other projects, I'd take a picture.

    An Ikea catalog it ain't. You all have, however, seen my workspace. If you see that white desk, that's where I'm sitting, right this minute.

    My primary testing machines are a 5,1 Mac Pro heavily upgraded with 12 cores and 32GB of RAM (for no real reason other than I could), a 2015 and 2016 15-inch MacBook Pro, a quad-core 2012 Mac mini with a Thunderbolt 3 (adapted down to TB2) RAID array with 5TB hard drives, an unpopulated eSATA 5-bay RAID enclosure connected with a Thunderbolt 2 adapter when need be, a gigabit wired network, and three Airport Extreme base stations connected to a FiOS gigabit connection.

    Also on the network are four third-generation Apple TVs, two second-generation Apple TVs, two fourth-generation Apple TVs, a 3,1 Mac Pro with backup drives, a Kangaroo PC connected to a 50-inch touchscreen for assorted emulation and gaming projects, an Xbox One, an original Xbox, an Xbox 360, and a PlayStation 4. I have a gaming PC, but I've stripped out the video card for eGPU testing, so it at the moment is offline.

    A Brother and HP laser printer are available -- I forget the models at the moment.

    The house contains a 12.9-inch iPad Pro, a new iPad, two iPad Airs (kids). Also installed are an Amazon Echo, and two Amazon Fire TV streamers.

    All the HDMI video and audio is routed through a Denon AVR-S900W receiver, to an Acer B286HK and CB281HK display. The MacBook pro connects through the OWC Thunderbolt 3 dock (in an extended test for a later piece) and it in turn connects to the same displays with DisplayPort.

    A rolling quantity of gear comes through. Most of it has to go back to the vendor when we're done. A note for all -- if you're getting into tech reporting for free stuff, you're doing it wrong. There is no flood of it.

    This is my job, and has been for some time, which is why I have all this stuff. I've been doing tech analysis for over 20 years. First as an auxiliary duty in the Navy, then privately, then at MacNN in 2012, and here at AI after MacNN closed. My first Apple dealership stint was in 1987-1989, then twice more in the 2000s -- all at independent shops and never at Apple retail.

    The other testing lab I've used for RF work with the LG 5K Ultrafine display is courtesy U.S. military -- and you won't be getting any shots of that.

    Anybody can do news. Anybody can benchmark. Not everybody can break down stuff as it applies to users, unless you are one.

    Does that work?
    Thanks very much Mike. Yes, that works very well.
  • Reply 52 of 63
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member

    melgross said:
    BittySon said:
    staticx57 said:
    BittySon said:
    BittySon said:
    Thanks Mike, important topic but still a pretty confusing, not so much your TB3 descriptions but your USB 3.1 descriptions.  You say  USB 3.1 Type C can be 5 or 10 Gbps, the first supposedly USB 3.1 Type-C Gen 1.  Is the 10 Gbps Gen 2, and how do you tell those apart?  And you say that active TB3 cables are not USB 3.1 Type C "compatible"?  What does that mean?  In what way not compatible?  What speed will then run, what wattage will they support?  Any?  None?  A bit more specificity would be super.
    USB 3.1 type-C generation 2 is 10Gbps. You can't tell them apart externally, until you plug them in.

    Active TB3 cables can't be used as USB 3.1 type-C data cables, full stop. You literally cannot connect to a USB 3.1 type-C device with one. Only Thunderbolt to Thunderbolt. They can be used as charging cables, and the wattage will vary based on the manufacturer.
    I'm just trying to square that with something you wrote back in October, regarding the Macbook Pro with TouchBar:  "Thunderbolt 3 is twice as fast as Thunderbolt 2, and uses the same physical connector. Since the connectors are shared, and Thunderbolt 3 contains USB 3.1 generation 2, users can plug in a USB 3.1 Generation 2 Type-C connector and get the same connectivity as always."  Just trying to understand.  And to figure out what my MPB 13 with TB actually has for connectors.
    Because it has four thunderbolt 3 ports
    Yeah?  Well, then there's this from Apple:  MacBook Pro (13-inch, 2016, Four Thunderbolt 3 Ports) supports Thunderbolt 3 at full performance using the two left-hand ports. The two right-hand ports deliver Thunderbolt 3 functionality, but have reduced PCI Express bandwidth.
    This is because a mobile Thunderbolt chip can support two Thunderbolt ports, one at full speed, and one at reduced speed. Apple uses two chips. These are two different chips, one is for desktops, and that can support two ports at full speed, but uses a lot of power. The second is what Apple uses for their laptops, because it uses less power which is obviously important in a mobile device. We’re talking several watts here per chip.
    The controllers are identical. What's different are the PCI-E channels allocated to the ports, as the dual-core processors have fewer than the quad-core.
    That results in the differing speeds though, as well as the different power draw. I believe the Desktop version uses about 8mwatts.
  • Reply 53 of 63
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member
    I’m trying to download Intel’s pdf for these controllers, but it keeps sending me toma product revise page mostly for third party docks and Thunderbolt raids, as well as info on companies, such as Apple who are implementing Thunderbolt.
  • Reply 54 of 63
    melgross said:
    Thank you for illustrating what an unmitigated disaster USB-C is. 
    USB C isn’t an unmitigated disaster. It’s an evolving standard, the way scsi was, and FireWire was, and as were many other standards. Perhaps if computer technology wasn’t itself evolving so rapidly, these standards would be fixed for longer periods, but it is, and they aren’t.
    USB-A is a standard. It is not evolving. Despite what evolving technology is doing.

    USB-C is already a disaster, and that is undeniable.
  • Reply 55 of 63
    nht said:
    melgross said:
    Thank you for illustrating what an unmitigated disaster USB-C is. 
    USB C isn’t an unmitigated disaster. It’s an evolving standard, the way scsi was, and FireWire was, and as were many other standards. Perhaps if computer technology wasn’t itself evolving so rapidly, these standards would be fixed for longer periods, but it is, and they aren’t.
    USB-C has been awesome. Power and data on one cable.  TB3 has been pretty optional so far but I'm not using a 5K display.  My first TB3 device is likely a eGPU box.

    some folks want to be outraged so any bit of friction is the end of the world.
    This is not "any bit of friction". Did you even read the article? It is an out-of-control mess.
  • Reply 56 of 63
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,718member
    Beware mixing your units of measurement. :)

    This useful article interchanges metric and imperial measurements continously throughout the piece.  Not a good idea IMHO.  Not that I believe it could be as costly as this, remember this screw up?  http://articles.latimes.com/1999/oct/01/news/mn-17288
  • Reply 57 of 63
    What a mess!! And they also removed the MagSafe connector for that! Jobs would never approve such a mess. 
  • Reply 58 of 63
    I have the 2 metre Belkin cable I use with an AKiTiO Thunder3 Quad Mini - 4-Bay and I chain that to a RED USB3.1 mag reader. I get 550Mb/sec over USB 3.1 with this setup!
    edited August 2017
  • Reply 59 of 63
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 6,858administrator
    6toecat said:
    I have the 2 metre Belkin cable I use with an AKiTiO Thunder3 Quad Mini - 4-Bay and I chain that to a RED USB3.1 mag reader. I get 550Mb/sec over USB 3.1 with this setup!
    I think you have something else other than an active Belkin cable. Even according to their own documentation, that's only capable of tops USB 2.0 speeds.

    There are 2 meter passive cables -- but they won't hit full speed in TB3 mode. Even with four SSDs you probably won't hit 40gbit/sec on the Thunder3, and 20gbit/second will still give you that 3.1 speed.

    edited August 2017
  • Reply 60 of 63
    This is a good article, but it still leaves me confused. I am looking to extend the charger for my new macbook pro without using the long, thick a/c extender for travel.

    I have the 6' usb-c to usb-c charging cable for the brick but found it too short in this particular instance where there was no desk in the room I was in. I was hoping to buy a 10' or 3 meter cable which would've done the trick but can't seem to find one that actually specifies 87w (or 100w). I gather from what I see above, there is no direct correlation between thunderbolt 3 - thunderbolt 3 and wattage either.

    I found one on Amazon (USB-C to USB-C Cable (10ft/3m) - uni USB-C Charge Cable [5A] for MacBook Pro 2018/2017, iPad Pro/MacBook Air 2018), but it has an 11% 1-star rating which seems kind of high. It's rated a 5 amp. Is that what I should be looking for?

    Maybe I'm asking for the impossible...

    Thank you for the article and any assistance you might be able to provide. 
    marc
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