Multi biometrics is what's next. Not uniquely Touch ID of Face ID, but both. There is no reason Apple don't implement Face ID into the 8 series. The bezels offer a lot of space to embed a lot of sensors.
Not going to happen. That's just what those who fear change are clinging onto now. When Apple can get TrueDepth cheap enough to scale they will phase out Touch ID as you don't need both. You'll see. Then all this worry and panic will seem like a dream as it fades away....again.
How do you know that me or anyone won't need both? Speak for yourself. There are a lot of meaningful anecdotes posted here favoring either Face ID or Touch ID. Let people post their anecdotes, don't restrain them by shouting you don't need this you don't need that...
I'm keeping an open mind until the dust settles and real world information is available.
The X is out of my price range so I will have time to see how things work out.
Right now it isn't something that is generating much interest in me. I'm sure there will be pros and cons to both but one of the current pros for my fingerprint sensor is gesture support. I would lose that functionality.
I can also unlock my phone discretely and use the function button to start the app it's programmed to support. I might lose that discretion without the fingerprint scanner.
I didn't watch the keynote, I just followed the live blog feed.
I have seen the glitch that Craig suffered and my first reaction wasn't on the glitch itself (which he handled very well) but on Craig's posture. It almost looked like he was revering the phone.
People who have had the hands on with it can say more and maybe Craig was overdoing it a bit just to cut down on any potential recognition issues.
Wow, talk about a defensive, brown-nosed article. What will you write this time next year when Apple 'triumphantly' reintroduce TouchID under the screen? Can't wait to find out!
I agree. I can't help but think Apple really wanted (and still intends) to embed TouchID under the screen. Just imagine the slide:
TouchID == 1 in 50,000 FaceID == 1 in 1,000,000 TouchID + FaceID == 1 in 50,000,000,000 "Apple is the first company to bring consumer 2-Factor, Biometric Authentication"
And what about the laser light onto the eyes from the Dot projector for Face ID. Shall we just assume that the laser is "safe" and won't damage the eye, even in subtle ways? I assume it's low power, and sort of tested, but so what?!
Ubiquitous laser scanners at every retailer, airports, etc are "safe in normal use". Which means NOT pointed at your eyes! From personal experience and a criminally negligent courier to my home, I know eyesight can be damaged by "safe" lasers.
I'd love to buy the iPhone X, but will stick to iPhone 8 with Touch ID. Less annoying to not have to stare at iPhone to activate. Perhaps Apple will consider adding the laser tech specs to its website, and explain how the laser face imaging safe. Until then, I'll never buy an iPhone with Face ID.
What happens if you injure your face, what if thieves cut your face off as they steal your phone, or what if you are the rare case of being born without a face?
I really wanted to include that line but I thought it might be too much. So thanks for adding it
When Samsung, HTC and others later tried to copy Apple's work, they introduced glaring security issues that did things like save an unencrypted photo of the user's fingerprints to the filesystem as world-readable (without setting any file permissions) so that any process could easily read and extract the data.
Interesting how you use the term "copy" with Samsung and HTC , but there is no mention on how Apple did the same with MS and Windows Hello, which has been part of the Surface since 2015.
Yeah, but the Surface isn't a phone. I imagine it's hard getting that kind of tech behind a laptop screen, but getting it to work on a phone...
I suppose it's hard, but technology moves always forward, and Apple had two years to improve and make it smaller. But still a copy of what MS did. There is a big chance that technology from PrimeSense, which Apple acquired a few years ago, is part of FaceID. And they are the same people who worked with Xbox Kinect. Could it be that patents from MS are part of FaceID? We don't know, but it's possible...
It could be, and FaceID and Windows Hello seem very similar on the surface (that wasn't deliberate), but they do appear to approach the problem from different angles (again, not deliberate).
First thing that strikes me is that you need to be facing the camera almost dead-on (+/- 15 degrees) for Windows Hello to work.This would not work for a phone.
Windows Hello also needs multiple images (a picture of you with glasses, a picture of you without glasses, a plcture of you with hair swept forward etc).
It also needs for you to run through the setup process again if your appearance changes significantly (you grow a beard for example).
What this tells me is that Microsoft is matching data points on stored representation of the user, which cannot cope with minor changes (specs) or views from different angles.
The difference, I think, is that Microsoft is comparing fixed data to decide if it's you. Apple is applying AI to fixed data to work out if it's you.
I think the systems are quite different.
Yes, all important points. As the article noted, Microsoft developed technology with PrimeSense (on the Xbox Kinect) related to one application of using a structure sensor, but on a very different scale and with an unrelated intent (playing games without a controller, across the room). This was not tremendously successful and it later abandoned it rather than scaling it down for new uses on mobile devices or PCs.
Windows Hello uses a standard camera responding to visible light. Apple's TrueDepth sensors use the same near IR-spectrum invisible light to scan details of your face, and so don't respond to facial hair (the light goes right through it, like those night vision Sony camcorders that could see through clothing if you removed the lens filter designed to stop people from taking "body scans" of people in swimsuits).
Re: the posting about Burkas: Face ID could probably be accommodated using material that was translucent to the light Face ID's TrueDepth uses, similar to how glove makers designed capacitative materials to enable cold weather users to activate Touch ID even wearing gloves.
How come Apple Watch can only unlock the Mac, and not the iPhone?
I don't understand. Especially since the Apple Watch has always been promoted as a companion product to the iPhone. The Apple Watch is a viable alternative to either Touch ID or Face ID.
What happens if you injure your face, what if thieves cut your face off as they steal your phone, or what if you are the rare case of being born without a face?
I really wanted to include that line but I thought it might be too much. So thanks for adding it
Is that line a Billy Idol reference... "Eyes Without A Face"?
My biggest query is when the phone is sitting on the desk, right now I just press with my finger and get a quick sense if any messages have arrived. With face ID I will either have to lean over or lift the phone, not optional. And, realize this is the true definition of a 1st world issue.
You just tap the screen to see notifications. No need to unlock de phone for that. 👍🏼
Hey Dan can I ask, level of security not with standing, do you really advocate a single form of authetification i.e face ID alone because that's some how the future even if face ID plus touch ID were possible ?
Or just editorial bitch slapping Sammy and cohorts, and youre fellow pundits, coz you know that's fun to write ( and read ) and what did you make of Crage's demo ?
"Hey Holyone can I ask, did you really advocate a single of biometric authentication i.e. Touch ID alone was perfection?"
Yeah funny you didn't have a problem w/ one biometric then but do now. Just admit it -- your real problem is with change to the unknown, not a single form of biometrics.
As for Craig's demo the biometric auth didn't fail. Go read the article, based on direct communication between Apple and tech writer David Pogue.
Wasn't even talking to you but as the over zealous self appointed defender of Apple you had to butt in and blast the thread with your unending snit and personalized retorts, you are tiresome, I swear you make it seem like Apple is you're mother or something, get a grip buddy. When touch ID came out face ID wasn't ready to accompany it, any moron can understand that, are you and DED seriously suggesting that one biometric authentication method is better than two ? For a company so dedicated to privacy it seems like StrangeDays when they'd just throw touch ID away even if it was possible for the new method to have been added to the old one
The question should be asked in reverse. If FaceID was the first biometric authentication to be implemented, as well as Apple seems to have done, with a 1 in 1,000,000 probability of false positive, would anyone be clamoring for a second, relatively less secure means of biometric authentication to be added? I think there would be far less call for that. Seems to me there are always edge cases, marginal populations for which a different method might work better. But you don't base design on the edge cases. You simply can't please everyone, and that's okay.
This is why I stick with Apple. They are not afraid to push the envelope, cross the line, move to where the puck will be. Apple could have played it safe and put TouchID on the back like Samsung. Instead they went nipples to the wind, balls to the wall, dragging users kicking and screaming with them. Will Face ID succeed wildly or fail miserably? Since it's Apple I believe it will be the former. And why do the lurkers come crawling out with every DED article? Because he throws it in their faces, that's why, and all they can do is claim he's an Apple brown nose. Re-read the section titled "Touch ID panic: This all happened before" as this is the crux of the article. Techies are always guffawing about luddites and those unwilling to adapt to technology when it's they themselves that are the cowards when change arrives. OMG, Apple did something different! Well they had better keep all my favorite ports and features because I refuse to consider change!
Change for change sake isn't a good thing, there will always come a point wher further change serves only to degrade a user experience that has otherwise achieved perfection,
Face ID isn't change for change's sake, it's for the sake of getting a smaller device with the same sized or bigger screen.
funy how the was no menstion of this during the key note. Apple always makes it a point to present not just a product or technology they demonstrate their take on it and why they chose to do it and the carefully narrated reasoning and thinking behind any major change they make that people and especially the press will question ? That is how they've always done things. The hole same size but bigger screen is just conjecture and has little to do with face ID which could just as easily be built into the 8's in their curent sizes, when was it that people went "smartphone makers we want biger screens on smaller phones, even if part of the screen will be cut for cameras and such" are the gains really that worth it ?if the plus is to big for you buy the smaller non plus model, Jony secrificed symmetry for this thing. And Considering all the trouble Apple went throught to get the X they didn't even officially say that this phone is in celebration of the original or that it was especially an anniversary model, merely a start of the new direction iPhone is going, BTW I like the X it looks better than I thought it would but the 8 is drop dead, it's unfortunate that the voice of Apple fans (who appreciate the Apple experience more than anything) is being drowned out by the new AAPL fans who are quick to talk money and technology with out any clear direction.
How is the iPhone with Home button symmetrical? It's got a round button on the bottom bezel and some sensors/camera showing on the top bezel. That's no more symmetry than the X.
And what about the laser light onto the eyes from the Dot projector for Face ID. Shall we just assume that the laser is "safe" and won't damage the eye, even in subtle ways? I assume it's low power, and sort of tested, but so what?!
Ubiquitous laser scanners at every retailer, airports, etc are "safe in normal use". Which means NOT pointed at your eyes! From personal experience and a criminally negligent courier to my home, I know eyesight can be damaged by "safe" lasers.
I'd love to buy the iPhone X, but will stick to iPhone 8 with Touch ID. Less annoying to not have to stare at iPhone to activate. Perhaps Apple will consider adding the laser tech specs to its website, and explain how the laser face imaging safe. Until then, I'll never buy an iPhone with Face ID.
Just a guess... the flood illuminator and dot projector likely output at levels below what you get in those same wavelengths just walking around with your eyes open. Maybe the additional light they shine in your eyes is equivalent to having your eyes open for an additional few seconds each day. Let's see if I'm a good guesser,
Gruber just posted his thoughts on the Apple Event and this is what he had to say about FaceID:
"Apple made this decision well over a year ago. Perhaps the fundamental goal of iPhone X was to get as close as they could to an edge-to-edge display. No chin whatsoever. There were, of course, early attempts to embed a Touch ID sensor under the display as a Plan B. But Apple became convinced that Face ID was the way to go over a year ago. I heard this yesterday from multiple people at Apple, including engineers who’ve been working on the iPhone X project for a very long time. They stopped pursuing Touch ID under the display not because they couldn’t do it, but because they decided they didn’t need it"
"One of the places where I saw it working — instantly and effortlessly — was a really dark room. It just works."
This is why I stick with Apple. They are not afraid to push the envelope, cross the line, move to where the puck will be. Apple could have played it safe and put TouchID on the back like Samsung. Instead they went nipples to the wind, balls to the wall, dragging users kicking and screaming with them. Will Face ID succeed wildly or fail miserably? Since it's Apple I believe it will be the former. And why do the lurkers come crawling out with every DED article? Because he throws it in their faces, that's why, and all they can do is claim he's an Apple brown nose. Re-read the section titled "Touch ID panic: This all happened before" as this is the crux of the article. Techies are always guffawing about luddites and those unwilling to adapt to technology when it's they themselves that are the cowards when change arrives. OMG, Apple did something different! Well they had better keep all my favorite ports and features because I refuse to consider change!
Change for change sake isn't a good thing, there will always come a point wher further change serves only to degrade a user experience that has otherwise achieved perfection, like the L shape of MBP, not that face ID is that, but swiping up to home screen is not as elegant as the home button, that's just a degraded user experience that no dough will become natural like all things where you have little choice IMHO and the fact that the old model was just better will always remain. I personally hope touch ID returns some how, hopefully on the side button, I would think that be much easier to do than under the display.
Look, a sane observation. Can't have that around here.
I was all in on Apple's ideas until 2013 when iOS 7 arrived. Been a downward spiral ever since (including on the Mac side).
Gruber just posted his thoughts on the Apple Event and this is what he had to say about FaceID:
"Apple made this decision well over a year ago. Perhaps the fundamental goal of iPhone X was to get as close as they could to an edge-to-edge display. No chin whatsoever. There were, of course, early attempts to embed a Touch ID sensor under the display as a Plan B. But Apple became convinced that Face ID was the way to go over a year ago. I heard this yesterday from multiple people at Apple, including engineers who’ve been working on the iPhone X project for a very long time. They stopped pursuing Touch ID under the display not because they couldn’t do it, but because they decided they didn’t need it"
"One of the places where I saw it working — instantly and effortlessly — was a really dark room. It just works."
Thanks for that clarification. No reason to believe Gruber or any of the Apple technicians lied. This CONFIRM that Apple has already decided to REPLACE TouchID with FaceID at least A YEAR AGO. There wasn't any further plan to pursue TouchID under the display since the decision has been made. No further development on that area either in the future. Unless FaceID is a big fail, but I don't see that aside from the usual minor bugs.
Comments
The X is out of my price range so I will have time to see how things work out.
Right now it isn't something that is generating much interest in me. I'm sure there will be pros and cons to both but one of the current pros for my fingerprint sensor is gesture support. I would lose that functionality.
I can also unlock my phone discretely and use the function button to start the app it's programmed to support. I might lose that discretion without the fingerprint scanner.
I didn't watch the keynote, I just followed the live blog feed.
I have seen the glitch that Craig suffered and my first reaction wasn't on the glitch itself (which he handled very well) but on Craig's posture. It almost looked like he was revering the phone.
People who have had the hands on with it can say more and maybe Craig was overdoing it a bit just to cut down on any potential recognition issues.
I'll keep an open mind.
Ubiquitous laser scanners at every retailer, airports, etc are "safe in normal use". Which means NOT pointed at your eyes! From personal experience and a criminally negligent courier to my home, I know eyesight can be damaged by "safe" lasers.
I'd love to buy the iPhone X, but will stick to iPhone 8 with Touch ID. Less annoying to not have to stare at iPhone to activate. Perhaps Apple will consider adding the laser tech specs to its website, and explain how the laser face imaging safe. Until then, I'll never buy an iPhone with Face ID.
Yes, all important points. As the article noted, Microsoft developed technology with PrimeSense (on the Xbox Kinect) related to one application of using a structure sensor, but on a very different scale and with an unrelated intent (playing games without a controller, across the room). This was not tremendously successful and it later abandoned it rather than scaling it down for new uses on mobile devices or PCs.
Re: the posting about Burkas: Face ID could probably be accommodated using material that was translucent to the light Face ID's TrueDepth uses, similar to how glove makers designed capacitative materials to enable cold weather users to activate Touch ID even wearing gloves.
I don't understand. Especially since the Apple Watch has always been promoted as a companion product to the iPhone. The Apple Watch is a viable alternative to either Touch ID or Face ID.
>:x
EDIT: grammar
"Apple made this decision well over a year ago. Perhaps the fundamental goal of iPhone X was to get as close as they could to an edge-to-edge display. No chin whatsoever. There were, of course, early attempts to embed a Touch ID sensor under the display as a Plan B. But Apple became convinced that Face ID was the way to go over a year ago. I heard this yesterday from multiple people at Apple, including engineers who’ve been working on the iPhone X project for a very long time. They stopped pursuing Touch ID under the display not because they couldn’t do it, but because they decided they didn’t need it"
"One of the places where I saw it working — instantly and effortlessly — was a really dark room. It just works."
https://daringfireball.net/2017/09/iphone_x_event_thoughts_and_observations
I was all in on Apple's ideas until 2013 when iOS 7 arrived. Been a downward spiral ever since (including on the Mac side).