Google buys HTC smartphone team for $1.1B [u]

13

Comments

  • Reply 41 of 79
    brucemcbrucemc Posts: 1,519member
    Well, it does signal Google's greater interest in selling actual hardware (for all those that defend Google's hardware adventures as being really only reference designs to show others how it is done).  

    They certainly have a long way to go from current sales levels, and will need to invest over years in distribution / sales points.  Strong competition from Samsung in most areas, along with some upstarts like Essential (although I don't expect them to last long).
    gatorguywatto_cobra
  • Reply 42 of 79
    tzeshantzeshan Posts: 1,885member
    Google said last year that Pixel is designed by Google and manufactured by HTC.  I said Google lied. In order not to repeat this lie for Pixel 2 launch Google decided to buy the ODM of HTC. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 43 of 79
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 20,278member
    tzeshan said:
    Google said last year that Pixel is designed by Google and manufactured by HTC.  I said Google lied. In order not to repeat this lie for Pixel 2 launch Google decided to buy the ODM of HTC. 
    Yeah they might have had a lot of input on the innards, maybe even did much of the engineering themselves (or not) but that shell is a dead giveaway it was an HTC designed one. 
    edited September 2017
  • Reply 44 of 79
    sog35 said:
    gatorguy said:
    sog35 said:
    gatorguy said:
    sog35 said:
    gatorguy said:
    sog35 said:
    gwydion said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    I am not sure Motorola was such a bad deal for Google:


    So once you factor everything out (plus some tax assets apparently), it appears they lost not more than 3.5 billion on the deal.




    Losing 3.5 billion is the very definition of a ‘bad deal’. 
    They didn't lose 3.5B, they acquired ALL the Motorola patents for 3.5B
    But don't forget the operating losses Google suffered when they owned Motorola. That was over $1.5 billion.

    Also don't forget all the transaction fees to acquire Motorola - legal fees, severance, ect.

    Also don't forget all the time/energy Google executives wasted working on the Motorola deal.

    And don't forget Google wrote off BILLIONS on the patents from the Motorola deal.

    All in All Google lost at least $5 BILLION on the Motorola deal, and a TON of wasted time and energy.
    Google or Apple spending even $5b on something that didn't work out is no worse than you spending a couple thousand on a washer/dryer combo that you don't like as much as you expected to after you bought it. On top of that you have zero knowledge of what Google actually DID accomplish with the Moto purchase or what the original reasoning was or whether it was valid. Like the rest of us you guess, with your opinion slanted by preconceptions (and wishes?) just like me and the other commenters.
    Wow.

    You are such a Google apologist.

    So just because Google is big, its not a failure when they waste $5,000,000,000 on Moto?  And that does not even count the wasted time and effort and opportunity cost.

    Instead of wasting all that time and money on Moto they could have done other projects.


    And $5 billion is NOT small for Google.  When they sold Moto in 2014 Google made $14 billion in profit.  That $5 billion loss was equal to 35% of Google's total net income for 2014.  Not lets compare that to the average American worker who makes about $50k a year after taxes. 35% of that is $17,000.  You think the average person taking home $50k a year won't be STUNG from losing $17k?
    Sog, you still assume you know why Google bought Moto: So why did they?

    ...and whether the goals were accomplished: What were those goals?

    ... and whether Google considers it money well-spent. What does Google's executive reports say on the matter? .

    As I've heard said here too many times to count, perhaps by you yourself: How many $500B+ companies have you run?
    And yes $5B is relative-peanuts to Google, sitting on roughly $100B in cash alone today with zero liabilities.

    Neither Google nor Apple has a lack of ready cash, nor have they for a decade or more. You presume to be a much smarter business person that you likely are. I realize I'm not qualified to pass final judgement on any of Apple or Google's business acquisitions and avoid doing so. You've apparently not come to that realization yet. 

    To put in perspective here are some companies Google could buy outright, paying in cash, based on those company's market caps:

    • Lowe’s ($72.8 billion)
    • Netflix ($68.8 billion)
    • Tesla ($53.8 billion)
    • Southwest Airline ($35.3 billion)
    • Harley Davidson ($9.8 billion)

    Google could by any of these companies. For cash. No financing necessary. Apple is even richer and could buy all of them at the same time if you include their long-term marketable securities (which you should)


    There was no disaster even if it turns out it was a total waste of money to begin with, which none of us know.


    I've already explained it.

    $5 billion is a CRAP LOAD of money.  Instead of Moto Google could have purchased Beats (Apple Music and Headphones), Authtentech (TouchID creator), Prime Sense (camera tech on iPhone  X), LinX (camera tech), Faceshift (Animoji), PA Semi ( creator of A-class CPU) and much more.
    Hell Google could have bought each and every one of them. For cash. And still bought Moto. And still be banking $Bilions.

    We all underestimate how rich these companies actually are, what they could do with the cash sitting around if they wanted to, and the value of what they do spend it on. Some of us go so far as to think we know more than they do about their own businesses they built from the ground up.
    You will never admit the Moto deal was a mistake.....so sad
    This article essentially implies that Google lost 9.5 billions on the Motorola transaction - this is a commonly repeated claim but does not seem correct.

    In 2012, Google didn't really seem to want to buy Motorola for anything but defensive purposes: prevent Motorola from suing other Android OEMs (they had made threats just before the sale because Motorola was losing against Samsung and even HTC) and get hold of some patents. Whether it cost them 3.5 billion or 5 billion - in either case it doesn't seem like a huge cost given how valuable Android is for them today.

    What they definitely did not try to do is building Motorola into a real competitor to Samsung etc. They went out of their way to handicap Motorola and not give them any prior access to Android code. Their focus was growing the Android eco-system - not to build a dominant Android OEM. In 2012, Microsoft was still pushing Windows hard and even Blackberry was still quite big. This wasn't the time for Google to risk all this and push Samsung into Microsoft's arms.

    Now the situation is very different: there is only iOS and Android left. Google also now has wider hardware ambitions such as Chromecast, Google WiFi, Nest etc. Android OEMs are trying to push their own services (Bixby etc.) and hide Google's services. Regulators in Europe and elsewhere might force Google to no longer require OEMs to pre-install Google Apps in exchange for access to the Play store (as it already happened in Russia). So it makes complete sense for them to give the hardware phone business a real try and produce phones where they control the software aspect completely.

    To summarize, the Motorola acquisition was neither particularly terrible for Google nor is it particularly informative about their chances of success with HTC.
    edited September 2017 gatorguyronn
  • Reply 45 of 79
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 20,278member
    One further note: 
    It's believed by those-in-the-know that Google is working on its own chipset for their Pixel line, intending to eventually push Qualcomm out as the SoC provider in its upcoming phones.
    ronnpatchythepirate
  • Reply 46 of 79
    tzeshantzeshan Posts: 1,885member
    sog35 said:
    tzeshan said:
    Google said last year that Pixel is designed by Google and manufactured by HTC.  I said Google lied. In order not to repeat this lie for Pixel 2 launch Google decided to buy the ODM of HTC. 
    LOL.

    So true. 

    Just because they put a 'G' on the phone they thought they could get away with this lie.
    Expect when Google announce Pixel 2 and still say designed by Google and manufactured by HTC. At that time everybody with some intelligence will see what kind of game and lie Google is playing with the media. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 47 of 79
    tzeshantzeshan Posts: 1,885member
    gatorguy said:
    One further note: 
    It's believed by those-in-the-know that Google is working on its own chipset for their Pixel line, intending to eventually push Qualcomm out as the SoC provider in its upcoming phones.
    Google is forced to follow Apple's path step by step.  All its sidesteps like VR like Google glasses are failures. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 48 of 79
    lkrupp said:
    gatorguy said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    Paging GoogleGospelGuy, paging GoogleGospelGuy…
    Asking me for my opinion by using my forum name would be preferred. Please avoid trollish "calling LOL-I-thought-of-a-funny-name-for-you har har" behaviour meant to elicit a negative response. We're equally entitled as long-term contributing members of the AI community, and really should make at least a show of effort at respecting each other.

    So in the future when you'd like to hear my opinion on something please try to do so without resorting to what is essentially juvenile name-calling. It comes off as both bumptious and uncultivated whether it's done by a fellow forum member or a head of state, and I'm pretty certain that's not the perception you would wish to leave.
    Funny though, how you only show up and post when Google is mentioned, and it’s always in defense or promotion of Google. Maybe you should change your user name to GoogleEvangelist then as it would more accurately describe your participation in these forums.
    Yeah, for a guy who doesn’t even understand how answering a phone call on an iphone works, or what an Apple Watch looks like, I really have to wonder what the true motivation for pushing the google narrative on an apple site is for him. Personal compulsion, or professional interest?
    williamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 49 of 79
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 20,278member
    sog35 said:
    sog35 said:
    gatorguy said:
    sog35 said:
    gatorguy said:
    sog35 said:
    gatorguy said:
    sog35 said:
    gwydion said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    I am not sure Motorola was such a bad deal for Google:


    So once you factor everything out (plus some tax assets apparently), it appears they lost not more than 3.5 billion on the deal.




    Losing 3.5 billion is the very definition of a ‘bad deal’. 
    They didn't lose 3.5B, they acquired ALL the Motorola patents for 3.5B
    But don't forget the operating losses Google suffered when they owned Motorola. That was over $1.5 billion.

    Also don't forget all the transaction fees to acquire Motorola - legal fees, severance, ect.

    Also don't forget all the time/energy Google executives wasted working on the Motorola deal.

    And don't forget Google wrote off BILLIONS on the patents from the Motorola deal.

    All in All Google lost at least $5 BILLION on the Motorola deal, and a TON of wasted time and energy.
    Google or Apple spending even $5b on something that didn't work out is no worse than you spending a couple thousand on a washer/dryer combo that you don't like as much as you expected to after you bought it. On top of that you have zero knowledge of what Google actually DID accomplish with the Moto purchase or what the original reasoning was or whether it was valid. Like the rest of us you guess, with your opinion slanted by preconceptions (and wishes?) just like me and the other commenters.
    Wow.

    You are such a Google apologist.

    So just because Google is big, its not a failure when they waste $5,000,000,000 on Moto?  And that does not even count the wasted time and effort and opportunity cost.

    Instead of wasting all that time and money on Moto they could have done other projects.


    And $5 billion is NOT small for Google.  When they sold Moto in 2014 Google made $14 billion in profit.  That $5 billion loss was equal to 35% of Google's total net income for 2014.  Not lets compare that to the average American worker who makes about $50k a year after taxes. 35% of that is $17,000.  You think the average person taking home $50k a year won't be STUNG from losing $17k?
    Sog, you still assume you know why Google bought Moto: So why did they?

    ...and whether the goals were accomplished: What were those goals?

    ... and whether Google considers it money well-spent. What does Google's executive reports say on the matter? .

    As I've heard said here too many times to count, perhaps by you yourself: How many $500B+ companies have you run?
    And yes $5B is relative-peanuts to Google, sitting on roughly $100B in cash alone today with zero liabilities.

    Neither Google nor Apple has a lack of ready cash, nor have they for a decade or more. You presume to be a much smarter business person that you likely are. I realize I'm not qualified to pass final judgement on any of Apple or Google's business acquisitions and avoid doing so. You've apparently not come to that realization yet. 

    To put in perspective here are some companies Google could buy outright, paying in cash, based on those company's market caps:

    • Lowe’s ($72.8 billion)
    • Netflix ($68.8 billion)
    • Tesla ($53.8 billion)
    • Southwest Airline ($35.3 billion)
    • Harley Davidson ($9.8 billion)

    Google could by any of these companies. For cash. No financing necessary. Apple is even richer and could buy all of them at the same time if you include their long-term marketable securities (which you should)


    There was no disaster even if it turns out it was a total waste of money to begin with, which none of us know.


    I've already explained it.

    $5 billion is a CRAP LOAD of money.  Instead of Moto Google could have purchased Beats (Apple Music and Headphones), Authtentech (TouchID creator), Prime Sense (camera tech on iPhone  X), LinX (camera tech), Faceshift (Animoji), PA Semi ( creator of A-class CPU) and much more.
    Hell Google could have bought each and every one of them. For cash. And still bought Moto. And still be banking $Bilions.

    We all underestimate how rich these companies actually are, what they could do with the cash sitting around if they wanted to, and the value of what they do spend it on. Some of us go so far as to think we know more than they do about their own businesses they built from the ground up.
    You will never admit the Moto deal was a mistake.....so sad
    This article essentially implies that Google lost 9.5 billions on the Motorola transaction - this is a commonly repeated claim but does not seem correct.

    In 2012, Google didn't really seem to want to buy Motorola for anything but defensive purposes: prevent Motorola from suing other Android OEMs (they had made threats just before the sale because Motorola was losing against Samsung and even HTC) and get hold of some patents. Whether it cost them 3.5 billion or 5 billion - in either case it doesn't seem like a huge cost given how valuable Android is for them today.

    What they definitely did not try to do is building Motorola into a real competitor to Samsung etc. They went out of their way to handicap Motorola and not give them any prior access to Android code. Their focus was growing the Android eco-system - not to build a dominant Android OEM. In 2012, Microsoft was still pushing Windows hard and even Blackberry was still quite big. This wasn't the time for Google to risk all this and push Samsung into Microsoft's arms.

    Now the situation is very different: there is only iOS and Android left. Google also now has wider hardware ambitions such as Chromecast, Google WiFi, Nest etc. Android OEMs are trying to push their own services (Bixby etc.) and hide Google's services. Regulators in Europe and elsewhere might force Google to no longer require OEMs to pre-install Google Apps in exchange for access to the Play store (as it already happened in Russia). So it makes complete sense for them to give the hardware phone business a real try and produce phones where they control the software aspect completely.

    To summarize, the Motorola acquisition was neither particularly terrible for Google nor is it particularly informative about their chances of success with HTC.
    Revisionist history.

    If Google truly only wanted the patents, they could have bought those patents or made a deal with Moto for WAY LESS THAN $15 BILLION.  Moto probably would have settled for $1 Billion or less.
    So now you've determined that Motorola would have parted with all their IP separate from the company and for a relative pittance?

    HTC isn't doing that, nor did Nokia when they "sold" to Microsoft. They retained their IP. What rationale do you have for Moto giving up their patents while still manufacturing? Wouldn't that have left them open to attack from Apple, which I believe was already being threatened, but now lacking control of patents to counter with? It certainly doesn't seem likely but perhaps you can make a well-reasoned argument as to why they would, something beyond just proclaiming it to be true. 
    edited September 2017 ronn
  • Reply 50 of 79
    tzeshantzeshan Posts: 1,885member
    sog35 said:
    sog35 said:
    gatorguy said:
    sog35 said:
    gatorguy said:
    sog35 said:
    gatorguy said:
    sog35 said:
    gwydion said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    I am not sure Motorola was such a bad deal for Google:


    So once you factor everything out (plus some tax assets apparently), it appears they lost not more than 3.5 billion on the deal.




    Losing 3.5 billion is the very definition of a ‘bad deal’. 
    They didn't lose 3.5B, they acquired ALL the Motorola patents for 3.5B
    But don't forget the operating losses Google suffered when they owned Motorola. That was over $1.5 billion.

    Also don't forget all the transaction fees to acquire Motorola - legal fees, severance, ect.

    Also don't forget all the time/energy Google executives wasted working on the Motorola deal.

    And don't forget Google wrote off BILLIONS on the patents from the Motorola deal.

    All in All Google lost at least $5 BILLION on the Motorola deal, and a TON of wasted time and energy.
    Google or Apple spending even $5b on something that didn't work out is no worse than you spending a couple thousand on a washer/dryer combo that you don't like as much as you expected to after you bought it. On top of that you have zero knowledge of what Google actually DID accomplish with the Moto purchase or what the original reasoning was or whether it was valid. Like the rest of us you guess, with your opinion slanted by preconceptions (and wishes?) just like me and the other commenters.
    Wow.

    You are such a Google apologist.

    So just because Google is big, its not a failure when they waste $5,000,000,000 on Moto?  And that does not even count the wasted time and effort and opportunity cost.

    Instead of wasting all that time and money on Moto they could have done other projects.


    And $5 billion is NOT small for Google.  When they sold Moto in 2014 Google made $14 billion in profit.  That $5 billion loss was equal to 35% of Google's total net income for 2014.  Not lets compare that to the average American worker who makes about $50k a year after taxes. 35% of that is $17,000.  You think the average person taking home $50k a year won't be STUNG from losing $17k?
    Sog, you still assume you know why Google bought Moto: So why did they?

    ...and whether the goals were accomplished: What were those goals?

    ... and whether Google considers it money well-spent. What does Google's executive reports say on the matter? .

    As I've heard said here too many times to count, perhaps by you yourself: How many $500B+ companies have you run?
    And yes $5B is relative-peanuts to Google, sitting on roughly $100B in cash alone today with zero liabilities.

    Neither Google nor Apple has a lack of ready cash, nor have they for a decade or more. You presume to be a much smarter business person that you likely are. I realize I'm not qualified to pass final judgement on any of Apple or Google's business acquisitions and avoid doing so. You've apparently not come to that realization yet. 

    To put in perspective here are some companies Google could buy outright, paying in cash, based on those company's market caps:

    • Lowe’s ($72.8 billion)
    • Netflix ($68.8 billion)
    • Tesla ($53.8 billion)
    • Southwest Airline ($35.3 billion)
    • Harley Davidson ($9.8 billion)

    Google could by any of these companies. For cash. No financing necessary. Apple is even richer and could buy all of them at the same time if you include their long-term marketable securities (which you should)


    There was no disaster even if it turns out it was a total waste of money to begin with, which none of us know.


    I've already explained it.

    $5 billion is a CRAP LOAD of money.  Instead of Moto Google could have purchased Beats (Apple Music and Headphones), Authtentech (TouchID creator), Prime Sense (camera tech on iPhone  X), LinX (camera tech), Faceshift (Animoji), PA Semi ( creator of A-class CPU) and much more.
    Hell Google could have bought each and every one of them. For cash. And still bought Moto. And still be banking $Bilions.

    We all underestimate how rich these companies actually are, what they could do with the cash sitting around if they wanted to, and the value of what they do spend it on. Some of us go so far as to think we know more than they do about their own businesses they built from the ground up.
    You will never admit the Moto deal was a mistake.....so sad
    This article essentially implies that Google lost 9.5 billions on the Motorola transaction - this is a commonly repeated claim but does not seem correct.

    In 2012, Google didn't really seem to want to buy Motorola for anything but defensive purposes: prevent Motorola from suing other Android OEMs (they had made threats just before the sale because Motorola was losing against Samsung and even HTC) and get hold of some patents. Whether it cost them 3.5 billion or 5 billion - in either case it doesn't seem like a huge cost given how valuable Android is for them today.

    What they definitely did not try to do is building Motorola into a real competitor to Samsung etc. They went out of their way to handicap Motorola and not give them any prior access to Android code. Their focus was growing the Android eco-system - not to build a dominant Android OEM. In 2012, Microsoft was still pushing Windows hard and even Blackberry was still quite big. This wasn't the time for Google to risk all this and push Samsung into Microsoft's arms.

    Now the situation is very different: there is only iOS and Android left. Google also now has wider hardware ambitions such as Chromecast, Google WiFi, Nest etc. Android OEMs are trying to push their own services (Bixby etc.) and hide Google's services. Regulators in Europe and elsewhere might force Google to no longer require OEMs to pre-install Google Apps in exchange for access to the Play store (as it already happened in Russia). So it makes complete sense for them to give the hardware phone business a real try and produce phones where they control the software aspect completely.

    To summarize, the Motorola acquisition was neither particularly terrible for Google nor is it particularly informative about their chances of success with HTC.
    Revisionist history.

    If Google truly only wanted the patents, they could have bought those patents or made a deal with Moto for WAY LESS THAN $15 BILLION.  Moto probably would have settled for $1 Billion or less.

    Google wanted Moto to be a phone builder. And they did make several phones under Google ownership.  if Google only wanted the patents they would have NEVER released and hyped the MotoX.  Come on brah.

    The Moto acquisition was horrible and huge mistake.  anyone one denying is being ignorant.
    Motorola deal and the HTC deal are different. From financial point of view, Motorola employees are mostly paid US salaries.  The 2000 HTC employees are paid Taiwan salaries which are cheap even comparing to South Korea and Singapore. I think Google got a good deal.  The HTC CEO is a moron. 1.1 billion dollars? This is a fraction of Motorola deal after so many years. 
  • Reply 51 of 79
    Meaningless comments:

    When I read the headline, my first thought was: "is't that a violation of the 13th amendment?" 

    My next thought was how many phone companies had pro cycling team sponsorships: Motorola, HTC, T-Mobile. Sky is a UK telecommunications conglomerate, but not sure if they are in the phone business.


  • Reply 52 of 79
    Blunt said:
    Gatorguy is hilarious. He will defend Google to no end.
    Agreed, though I probably wouldn't use "hilarious" in that it's not very funny having to wade through apologists and shills from Google and MS (among others) as they defend and promote their "teams" in some silly Manichean-tribal-partisan corporate competition. I don't come here for them, they're a distraction, and not welcome to be quite honest.
  • Reply 53 of 79
    ronnronn Posts: 315member
    HTC was rapidly failing as a company, despite building Google's Pixel phones. Look what Google did with Nest, let alone Motorola. How is Samsung--already on edge with Google--going to want Google in control of Android? How is Google going to be better at hardware now that its original Andy Rubin Android team left for Essential? Motorola's patents didn't do anything for Google, regardless of what BGR claims was "not so bad". For less than $13 billion Google should have been able to build a hardware line from scratch, along with a silicon empire, a retail empire, an AR platform and a fashion headphones business. Apple did!
    I think everyone is looking at this short-term. Google is obviously looking at this long-term. HTC was/is committed to probably at least the next two iterations of the Pixel line. So Google had to step in and buy the hardware division. For them the $1.1B sum is paltry and may even be less that what they would have eventually spent taking their business to another shop over the next couple years to continue the Pixel line (and possibly other hardware).
  • Reply 54 of 79
    lkrupp said:
    If imitation is the sincerest form of flattery then Google must really love Apple. First Microsoft and now Google deciding that Apple’s business model of controlling both the hardware and the software is the way to go. And as another poster pointed out, this is going to piss off Samsung.
    You're forgetting that at one point Samsung used the Android OS but omitted many of Google's apps and users had no way to install those apps because at that time they were baked into the OS and not available on Google's app store. 
    ronn
  • Reply 55 of 79
    Oh well, it looks like Motorola all over again. 
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 56 of 79
    sog35 said:
    gatorguy said:
    sog35 said:
    sog35 said:
    gatorguy said:
    sog35 said:
    gatorguy said:
    sog35 said:
    gatorguy said:
    sog35 said:
    gwydion said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    I am not sure Motorola was such a bad deal for Google:


    So once you factor everything out (plus some tax assets apparently), it appears they lost not more than 3.5 billion on the deal.




    Losing 3.5 billion is the very definition of a ‘bad deal’. 
    They didn't lose 3.5B, they acquired ALL the Motorola patents for 3.5B
    But don't forget the operating losses Google suffered when they owned Motorola. That was over $1.5 billion.

    Also don't forget all the transaction fees to acquire Motorola - legal fees, severance, ect.

    Also don't forget all the time/energy Google executives wasted working on the Motorola deal.

    And don't forget Google wrote off BILLIONS on the patents from the Motorola deal.

    All in All Google lost at least $5 BILLION on the Motorola deal, and a TON of wasted time and energy.
    Google or Apple spending even $5b on something that didn't work out is no worse than you spending a couple thousand on a washer/dryer combo that you don't like as much as you expected to after you bought it. On top of that you have zero knowledge of what Google actually DID accomplish with the Moto purchase or what the original reasoning was or whether it was valid. Like the rest of us you guess, with your opinion slanted by preconceptions (and wishes?) just like me and the other commenters.
    Wow.

    You are such a Google apologist.

    So just because Google is big, its not a failure when they waste $5,000,000,000 on Moto?  And that does not even count the wasted time and effort and opportunity cost.

    Instead of wasting all that time and money on Moto they could have done other projects.


    And $5 billion is NOT small for Google.  When they sold Moto in 2014 Google made $14 billion in profit.  That $5 billion loss was equal to 35% of Google's total net income for 2014.  Not lets compare that to the average American worker who makes about $50k a year after taxes. 35% of that is $17,000.  You think the average person taking home $50k a year won't be STUNG from losing $17k?
    Sog, you still assume you know why Google bought Moto: So why did they?

    ...and whether the goals were accomplished: What were those goals?

    ... and whether Google considers it money well-spent. What does Google's executive reports say on the matter? .

    As I've heard said here too many times to count, perhaps by you yourself: How many $500B+ companies have you run?
    And yes $5B is relative-peanuts to Google, sitting on roughly $100B in cash alone today with zero liabilities.

    Neither Google nor Apple has a lack of ready cash, nor have they for a decade or more. You presume to be a much smarter business person that you likely are. I realize I'm not qualified to pass final judgement on any of Apple or Google's business acquisitions and avoid doing so. You've apparently not come to that realization yet. 

    To put in perspective here are some companies Google could buy outright, paying in cash, based on those company's market caps:

    • Lowe’s ($72.8 billion)
    • Netflix ($68.8 billion)
    • Tesla ($53.8 billion)
    • Southwest Airline ($35.3 billion)
    • Harley Davidson ($9.8 billion)

    Google could by any of these companies. For cash. No financing necessary. Apple is even richer and could buy all of them at the same time if you include their long-term marketable securities (which you should)


    There was no disaster even if it turns out it was a total waste of money to begin with, which none of us know.


    I've already explained it.

    $5 billion is a CRAP LOAD of money.  Instead of Moto Google could have purchased Beats (Apple Music and Headphones), Authtentech (TouchID creator), Prime Sense (camera tech on iPhone  X), LinX (camera tech), Faceshift (Animoji), PA Semi ( creator of A-class CPU) and much more.
    Hell Google could have bought each and every one of them. For cash. And still bought Moto. And still be banking $Bilions.

    We all underestimate how rich these companies actually are, what they could do with the cash sitting around if they wanted to, and the value of what they do spend it on. Some of us go so far as to think we know more than they do about their own businesses they built from the ground up.
    You will never admit the Moto deal was a mistake.....so sad
    This article essentially implies that Google lost 9.5 billions on the Motorola transaction - this is a commonly repeated claim but does not seem correct.

    In 2012, Google didn't really seem to want to buy Motorola for anything but defensive purposes: prevent Motorola from suing other Android OEMs (they had made threats just before the sale because Motorola was losing against Samsung and even HTC) and get hold of some patents. Whether it cost them 3.5 billion or 5 billion - in either case it doesn't seem like a huge cost given how valuable Android is for them today.

    What they definitely did not try to do is building Motorola into a real competitor to Samsung etc. They went out of their way to handicap Motorola and not give them any prior access to Android code. Their focus was growing the Android eco-system - not to build a dominant Android OEM. In 2012, Microsoft was still pushing Windows hard and even Blackberry was still quite big. This wasn't the time for Google to risk all this and push Samsung into Microsoft's arms.

    Now the situation is very different: there is only iOS and Android left. Google also now has wider hardware ambitions such as Chromecast, Google WiFi, Nest etc. Android OEMs are trying to push their own services (Bixby etc.) and hide Google's services. Regulators in Europe and elsewhere might force Google to no longer require OEMs to pre-install Google Apps in exchange for access to the Play store (as it already happened in Russia). So it makes complete sense for them to give the hardware phone business a real try and produce phones where they control the software aspect completely.

    To summarize, the Motorola acquisition was neither particularly terrible for Google nor is it particularly informative about their chances of success with HTC.
    Revisionist history.

    If Google truly only wanted the patents, they could have bought those patents or made a deal with Moto for WAY LESS THAN $15 BILLION.  Moto probably would have settled for $1 Billion or less.
    So now you've determined that Motorola would have parted with all their IP separate from the company and for a relative pittance?

    HTC isn't doing that, nor did Nokia when they "sold" to Microsoft. They retained their IP. What rationale do you have for Moto giving up their patents while still manufacturing? Wouldn't that have left them open to attack from Apple, which I believe was already being threatened, but now lacking control of patents to counter with? It certainly doesn't seem likely but perhaps you can make a well-reasoned argument as to why they would, something beyond just proclaiming it to be true. 
    Not give up, but doing a cross platform patent arrangement.

    No. Google had huge ambitions for Motorola, way beyond patents.

    Just read what Google/Moto said after the deal was done:

    "Our aim is simple," Woodside said in a prepared statement. "To focus Motorola Mobility's remarkable talent on fewer, bigger bets, and create wonderful devices that are used by people around the world."

    http://money.cnn.com/2012/05/22/technology/google-motorola/index.htm

    • Google and Motorola Mobility together will accelerate innovation and choice in mobile computing. Consumers will get better phones at lower prices.  (NOTICE THIS WAS THE FIRST BULLET POINT BEFORE MENTIONING PATENTS)
    • Motorola Mobility is great at devices. The combination of the two makes sense and will enable faster innovation.
    https://www.google.com/press/motorola/


    Its a TOTAL BULLSHIT argument that Google bought Moto just for patents.

    Its a WEAK ASS EXCUSE for the failure of Moto's hardware divisions.  Oh, so Moto hardware failed?  But, but, but, but, Google didn't buy Moto for hardware anyway......................BULLL SHIT. And you know.

    Google itself said the main reason they bought Moto was for hardware expertise. Just look at the linked press release by Google. The FIRST BULLET point was Moto's hardware chops NOT patents.


    What did you expect Google to say after they acquired Motorola in 2012?

    "We bought them so they won't start pointless patent wars with our Android OEMs?" 

    Certainly not.

    But actions speak louder than words and it is well known that Google went out of their way to not show any favoritism to Motorola.


    ronnwatto_cobra
  • Reply 57 of 79
    I am not sure Motorola was such a bad deal for Google:

    - They sold Motorola to Lenovo for 2.9 billion (as the article correctly reports).
    - They also sold the cable modem and set-top box business to Arris for 2.35 billion in 2012.
    - Motorola had 3 billion in cash.

    So once you factor everything out (plus some tax assets apparently), it appears they lost not more than 3.5 billion on the deal. A nice article is here:

    http://bgr.com/2014/02/13/google-motorola-sale-interview-lenovo/

    So one view is that they paid about 3.5 billion for Motorola patents - which is less than Apple and Microsoft paid when they teamed up to buy Nortel patents for 4.5 billion.

    But more importantly, Motorola was about to sue other Android manufacturers (Samsung, HTC). Google appeared to buy Motorola to end that threat because Android was not yet the dominant alternative to iOS. If Motorola would have sued everyone else, it could have disrupted the whole eco-system.

    So I don't think Google regrets buying Motorola - it might have been a defensive move (getting more patents, prevent a patent war with other Android OEMs) but it wasn't hugely expensive in the end.


    Interesting ideas but they don’t think that far ahead and theres little to no historical proof that there ever capable of doing that. They will ditch this when the Pixel falters... wait is it even a thing yet? No. No it’s not. Almost no one has a Pixel and so long as it’s tethered to Verizon that cannot change.  

    They lurch reflexively from idea to idea with very little care to whether there’s long term value or reason to their choices. 

    Youtube and ads aside... what do they do?

    they aren’t even Android... Android is nothing more than the phones Apple didn’t sell and the crap that turns them on and off... 
    williamlondonwatto_cobra
  • Reply 58 of 79
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 20,278member
    Blunt said:
    Gatorguy is hilarious. He will defend Google to no end.
    Agreed, though I probably wouldn't use "hilarious" in that it's not very funny having to wade through apologists and shills from Google and MS (among others) as they defend and promote their "teams" in some silly Manichean-tribal-partisan corporate competition. I don't come here for them, they're a distraction, and not welcome to be quite honest.
    Yet here you are, reading a Google-specific thread and feigning surprise and irritation when finding posters are commenting about Google.  *roll-eyes*

    Even sillier you found the discussion interesting enough to read thru the entire thread, and intrigued enough by it to join in the discussion...  in this Google-specific thread. Disingenuous much? 
    singularityronndasanman69
  • Reply 59 of 79
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 20,278member
    sog35 said:
    sog35 said:
    gatorguy said:
    sog35 said:
    sog35 said:
    gatorguy said:
    sog35 said:
    gatorguy said:
    sog35 said:
    gatorguy said:
    sog35 said:
    gwydion said:
    Rayz2016 said:
    I am not sure Motorola was such a bad deal for Google:


    So once you factor everything out (plus some tax assets apparently), it appears they lost not more than 3.5 billion on the deal.




    Losing 3.5 billion is the very definition of a ‘bad deal’. 
    They didn't lose 3.5B, they acquired ALL the Motorola patents for 3.5B
    But don't forget the operating losses Google suffered when they owned Motorola. That was over $1.5 billion.

    Also don't forget all the transaction fees to acquire Motorola - legal fees, severance, ect.

    Also don't forget all the time/energy Google executives wasted working on the Motorola deal.

    And don't forget Google wrote off BILLIONS on the patents from the Motorola deal.

    All in All Google lost at least $5 BILLION on the Motorola deal, and a TON of wasted time and energy.
    Google or Apple spending even $5b on something that didn't work out is no worse than you spending a couple thousand on a washer/dryer combo that you don't like as much as you expected to after you bought it. On top of that you have zero knowledge of what Google actually DID accomplish with the Moto purchase or what the original reasoning was or whether it was valid. Like the rest of us you guess, with your opinion slanted by preconceptions (and wishes?) just like me and the other commenters.
    Wow.

    You are such a Google apologist.

    So just because Google is big, its not a failure when they waste $5,000,000,000 on Moto?  And that does not even count the wasted time and effort and opportunity cost.

    Instead of wasting all that time and money on Moto they could have done other projects.


    And $5 billion is NOT small for Google.  When they sold Moto in 2014 Google made $14 billion in profit.  That $5 billion loss was equal to 35% of Google's total net income for 2014.  Not lets compare that to the average American worker who makes about $50k a year after taxes. 35% of that is $17,000.  You think the average person taking home $50k a year won't be STUNG from losing $17k?
    Sog, you still assume you know why Google bought Moto: So why did they?

    ...and whether the goals were accomplished: What were those goals?

    ... and whether Google considers it money well-spent. What does Google's executive reports say on the matter? .

    As I've heard said here too many times to count, perhaps by you yourself: How many $500B+ companies have you run?
    And yes $5B is relative-peanuts to Google, sitting on roughly $100B in cash alone today with zero liabilities.

    Neither Google nor Apple has a lack of ready cash, nor have they for a decade or more. You presume to be a much smarter business person that you likely are. I realize I'm not qualified to pass final judgement on any of Apple or Google's business acquisitions and avoid doing so. You've apparently not come to that realization yet. 

    To put in perspective here are some companies Google could buy outright, paying in cash, based on those company's market caps:

    • Lowe’s ($72.8 billion)
    • Netflix ($68.8 billion)
    • Tesla ($53.8 billion)
    • Southwest Airline ($35.3 billion)
    • Harley Davidson ($9.8 billion)

    Google could by any of these companies. For cash. No financing necessary. Apple is even richer and could buy all of them at the same time if you include their long-term marketable securities (which you should)


    There was no disaster even if it turns out it was a total waste of money to begin with, which none of us know.


    I've already explained it.

    $5 billion is a CRAP LOAD of money.  Instead of Moto Google could have purchased Beats (Apple Music and Headphones), Authtentech (TouchID creator), Prime Sense (camera tech on iPhone  X), LinX (camera tech), Faceshift (Animoji), PA Semi ( creator of A-class CPU) and much more.
    Hell Google could have bought each and every one of them. For cash. And still bought Moto. And still be banking $Bilions.

    We all underestimate how rich these companies actually are, what they could do with the cash sitting around if they wanted to, and the value of what they do spend it on. Some of us go so far as to think we know more than they do about their own businesses they built from the ground up.
    You will never admit the Moto deal was a mistake.....so sad
    This article essentially implies that Google lost 9.5 billions on the Motorola transaction - this is a commonly repeated claim but does not seem correct.

    In 2012, Google didn't really seem to want to buy Motorola for anything but defensive purposes: prevent Motorola from suing other Android OEMs (they had made threats just before the sale because Motorola was losing against Samsung and even HTC) and get hold of some patents. Whether it cost them 3.5 billion or 5 billion - in either case it doesn't seem like a huge cost given how valuable Android is for them today.

    What they definitely did not try to do is building Motorola into a real competitor to Samsung etc. They went out of their way to handicap Motorola and not give them any prior access to Android code. Their focus was growing the Android eco-system - not to build a dominant Android OEM. In 2012, Microsoft was still pushing Windows hard and even Blackberry was still quite big. This wasn't the time for Google to risk all this and push Samsung into Microsoft's arms.

    Now the situation is very different: there is only iOS and Android left. Google also now has wider hardware ambitions such as Chromecast, Google WiFi, Nest etc. Android OEMs are trying to push their own services (Bixby etc.) and hide Google's services. Regulators in Europe and elsewhere might force Google to no longer require OEMs to pre-install Google Apps in exchange for access to the Play store (as it already happened in Russia). So it makes complete sense for them to give the hardware phone business a real try and produce phones where they control the software aspect completely.

    To summarize, the Motorola acquisition was neither particularly terrible for Google nor is it particularly informative about their chances of success with HTC.
    Revisionist history.

    If Google truly only wanted the patents, they could have bought those patents or made a deal with Moto for WAY LESS THAN $15 BILLION.  Moto probably would have settled for $1 Billion or less.
    So now you've determined that Motorola would have parted with all their IP separate from the company and for a relative pittance?

    HTC isn't doing that, nor did Nokia when they "sold" to Microsoft. They retained their IP. What rationale do you have for Moto giving up their patents while still manufacturing? Wouldn't that have left them open to attack from Apple, which I believe was already being threatened, but now lacking control of patents to counter with? It certainly doesn't seem likely but perhaps you can make a well-reasoned argument as to why they would, something beyond just proclaiming it to be true. 
    Not give up, but doing a cross platform patent arrangement.

    No. Google had huge ambitions for Motorola, way beyond patents.

    Just read what Google/Moto said after the deal was done:

    "Our aim is simple," Woodside said in a prepared statement. "To focus Motorola Mobility's remarkable talent on fewer, bigger bets, and create wonderful devices that are used by people around the world."

    http://money.cnn.com/2012/05/22/technology/google-motorola/index.htm

    • Google and Motorola Mobility together will accelerate innovation and choice in mobile computing. Consumers will get better phones at lower prices.  (NOTICE THIS WAS THE FIRST BULLET POINT BEFORE MENTIONING PATENTS)
    • Motorola Mobility is great at devices. The combination of the two makes sense and will enable faster innovation.
    https://www.google.com/press/motorola/


    Its a TOTAL BULLSHIT argument that Google bought Moto just for patents.

    Its a WEAK ASS EXCUSE for the failure of Moto's hardware divisions.  Oh, so Moto hardware failed?  But, but, but, but, Google didn't buy Moto for hardware anyway......................BULLL SHIT. And you know.

    Google itself said the main reason they bought Moto was for hardware expertise. Just look at the linked press release by Google. The FIRST BULLET point was Moto's hardware chops NOT patents.


    What did you expect Google to say after they acquired Motorola in 2012?

    "We bought them so they won't start pointless patent wars with our Android OEMs?" 

    Certainly not.

    But actions speak louder than words and it is well known that Google went out of their way to not show any favoritism to Motorola.


    Yes actions do speak louder than words.

    Moto made several phones under Google ownership.  So yes on of the main reasons if not the main reason for purchase was hardware.  Just because Google didn't give Moto special advantages does not mean they were not serious about hardware.  Giving Moto special advantages would be suicide to the Android platform. But make no mistake: Google had HUGE hardware ambitions in purchasing Moto.

    While Google has collected exactly $0.00 from patent royalties from the Moto 'treasure trove'

    So you seriously think Google CEO/Chairman would do a press release saying they bought Moto for hardware and lie about it?  Come on.  No way will they be lying to their shareholders about a $15 billion purchase.
    Are you certain Google isn't receiving royalties?

    Motorola patents are part of the basic standards that ALL smartphones use, in addition to reading on several non-SEP technologies in smartphones and other devices, as of course they would be as Moto was responsible for inventing a great deal of the the technology that makes iPhones and such today possible.

    If Google is not receiving royalties, despite the fact that other companies who are also part of the same standards groups do, it would be by choice. Google does not want them. That of course would not be out-of-line with Google's general patent policies since they have been one of the biggest champions of organizing groups of companies willing to share patents openly between them with no expectation of payment. Still, I don't recall ever reading that Google has chosen to make all their patents royalty-free. Nice move for tech in general if they have tho. Any royalties would not be a major revenue source anyway, anymore than they are for Apple. 

    In any event for casual readers who missed it: Google is not buying HTC, nor buying even HTC patents so any comparison to "what happened with Motorola" are not very applicable anyway. 
    edited September 2017 singularityronn
  • Reply 60 of 79
    If they couldn't make Motorola work, how are they going to make HTC work?


    exactly, Motorola was top to bottom a better company and Google could not manage to hold it together and make it work.

    Also, very few people are aware of this, HTC got its start in cellphone manufacturing thanks to Motorola. Motorola use to have HTC design and build their low end feature phones for emerging markets. Motorola would provide them a design spec and a product ID and they would go off and design and build the phones for Motorola which Motorola turned around and sold around the world.

    I am taking better over or under 18 month on this being a royal failure, next bet do they shut it down or sell it, how much of a loss will they take. I think last one may not be a big issue, since it was not a $12B purchase like Motorola.

    patchythepirate
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