Watch: The best tvOS games for Apple TV 4K

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  • Reply 21 of 43
    RacerhomieXRacerhomieX Posts: 95unconfirmed, member
    Why can't I play GTA San andreas & other GTAs on ATV or can I?
    I still own the ATV 2 , and still love it for AirPlay, wsj video, and home sharing & iCloud Photo sharing.
  • Reply 22 of 43
    cali said:
    why so many excuses for Apple? Of course more games are coming but Imagine if PS4 launched and a month later all you could play were ps3 games? Sony would have been charred by flaming fans. 
    It's not a console. It's an extension of the iOS computing market established by iPhone and iPad. You also seem to be forgetting that graphic intensive 3D games can already scale their effects/quality based on the device being used. No reason to believe that won't be true of the ATV with A10X. Developers don't actually need to create a unique version of the game like a console. It's basically the PC game model, where games are developed to run across a wide variety of devices with a wide variety of capabilities. You don't see Dell or HP or Acer or Asus creating launch games for each new laptop or desktop they roll out, do you? It's a nonsensical idea when you're not using the console model. 
    caliSoliRayz2016
  • Reply 23 of 43
    cali said:
    why so many excuses for Apple? Of course more games are coming but Imagine if PS4 launched and a month later all you could play were ps3 games? Sony would have been charred by flaming fans. 
    It's not a console. It's an extension of the iOS computing market established by iPhone and iPad. You also seem to be forgetting that graphic intensive 3D games can already scale their effects/quality based on the device being used. No reason to believe that won't be true of the ATV with A10X. Developers don't actually need to create a unique version of the game like a console. It's basically the PC game model, where games are developed to run across a wide variety of devices with a wide variety of capabilities. You don't see Dell or HP or Acer or Asus creating launch games for each new laptop or desktop they roll out, do you? It's a nonsensical idea when you're not using the console model. 
    "Write once run everywhere" is not valid in mobile era. There is no such thing as "cross-platform", that is an urban legend of the 20th century. Even if there is, Apple's production and sales scale justifies the creation of a brand new code base specific to Apple platforms. The truth is, the gaming industry is years behind Apple and the paradigm change towards mobile Apple leads. Sticking with obsolete beliefs will not help.
    cali
  • Reply 24 of 43
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 10,264member
    I see the Apple Watch as a great analogy here:
    The Apple Watch is a general purpose device that functions very well in its sub-role as an exercise tracker.  But, for serious, focused exercisers like serious amateur and professional runners the Apple Watch lags far behind single purpose, specialty devices like the Garmins.

    Likewise, comparing the general purpose Apple TV in its burgeoning sub-role as a gamer to long standing single purpose game machines like X-Box, Wii and Playstation makes it look a bit shabby.

    Perhaps the better analogy is comparing a mini-van to Porsche 911.   The Mini-Van will look pretty sad when you rate it on speed, braking and cornering.  But don't try to haul 6 kids and luggage in your Porsche.

    That said, I'm glad to see Apple expanding the possible uses of Apple TV.
    edited October 2017 StrangeDays
  • Reply 25 of 43
    calicali Posts: 3,494member
    cali said:
    why so many excuses for Apple? Of course more games are coming but Imagine if PS4 launched and a month later all you could play were ps3 games? Sony would have been charred by flaming fans. 
    It's not a console. It's an extension of the iOS computing market established by iPhone and iPad. You also seem to be forgetting that graphic intensive 3D games can already scale their effects/quality based on the device being used. No reason to believe that won't be true of the ATV with A10X. Developers don't actually need to create a unique version of the game like a console. It's basically the PC game model, where games are developed to run across a wide variety of devices with a wide variety of capabilities. You don't see Dell or HP or Acer or Asus creating launch games for each new laptop or desktop they roll out, do you? It's a nonsensical idea when you're not using the console model. 
    “It’s not a console”
    It’s more than a console. If it’s not a console Apple should remove games and stop selling the Nimbus controller. 

    Games don’t auto upgrade(at least not yet). Asphalt from 2013 isn’t gonna recode itself for A10x, it’s gonna cap out at whatever technology was available at the time (iPhone 5/A6).

    I see the Apple Watch as a great analogy here:
    The Apple Watch is a general purpose device that functions very well in its sub-role as an exercise tracker.  But, for serious, focused exercisers like serious amateur and professional runners the Apple Watch lags far behind single purpose, specialty devices like the Garmins.

    Likewise, comparing the general purpose Apple TV in its burgeoning sub-role as a gamer to long standing single purpose game machines like X-Box, Wii and Playstation makes it look a bit shabby.

    Perhaps the better analogy is comparing a mini-van to Porsche 911.   The Mini-Van will look pretty sad when you rate it on speed, braking and cornering.  But don't try to haul 6 kids and luggage in your Porsche.

    That said, I'm glad to see Apple expanding the possible uses of Apple TV.
    Which is why I suggested Apple strike deals with gaming companies. It’s true they’re way behind Apple and the fact some of their flagship titles are years old from the iPhone 5 and earlier era doesn’t help. Real Racing which was once leading mobile gaming hasn’t had an updated version since 2013. I remember telling my cousin when a new iPhone would release “I can’t wait to see what the next Real Racing looks like!” Well that ended years ago.

    I would love to see Apple acquire Unreal and have them make exclusive engines that fully utilize A-processors while still licensing to Windows/consoles.
    Speaking of Unreal we haven’t seen an Infinity Blade in a while also, another game that would push new Apple hardware to its limits and is painfully missing from tvOS. 
  • Reply 26 of 43
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,030member
    cali said:
    cali said:
    why so many excuses for Apple? Of course more games are coming but Imagine if PS4 launched and a month later all you could play were ps3 games? Sony would have been charred by flaming fans. 
    It's not a console. It's an extension of the iOS computing market established by iPhone and iPad. You also seem to be forgetting that graphic intensive 3D games can already scale their effects/quality based on the device being used. No reason to believe that won't be true of the ATV with A10X. Developers don't actually need to create a unique version of the game like a console. It's basically the PC game model, where games are developed to run across a wide variety of devices with a wide variety of capabilities. You don't see Dell or HP or Acer or Asus creating launch games for each new laptop or desktop they roll out, do you? It's a nonsensical idea when you're not using the console model. 
    “It’s not a console”
    It’s more than a console. If it’s not a console Apple should remove games and stop selling the Nimbus controller. 

    Games don’t auto upgrade(at least not yet). Asphalt from 2013 isn’t gonna recode itself for A10x, it’s gonna cap out at whatever technology was available at the time (iPhone 5/A6).

    I see the Apple Watch as a great analogy here:
    The Apple Watch is a general purpose device that functions very well in its sub-role as an exercise tracker.  But, for serious, focused exercisers like serious amateur and professional runners the Apple Watch lags far behind single purpose, specialty devices like the Garmins.

    Likewise, comparing the general purpose Apple TV in its burgeoning sub-role as a gamer to long standing single purpose game machines like X-Box, Wii and Playstation makes it look a bit shabby.

    Perhaps the better analogy is comparing a mini-van to Porsche 911.   The Mini-Van will look pretty sad when you rate it on speed, braking and cornering.  But don't try to haul 6 kids and luggage in your Porsche.

    That said, I'm glad to see Apple expanding the possible uses of Apple TV.
    Which is why I suggested Apple strike deals with gaming companies. It’s true they’re way behind Apple and the fact some of their flagship titles are years old from the iPhone 5 and earlier era doesn’t help. Real Racing which was once leading mobile gaming hasn’t had an updated version since 2013. I remember telling my cousin when a new iPhone would release “I can’t wait to see what the next Real Racing looks like!” Well that ended years ago.

    I would love to see Apple acquire Unreal and have them make exclusive engines that fully utilize A-processors while still licensing to Windows/consoles.
    Speaking of Unreal we haven’t seen an Infinity Blade in a while also, another game that would push new Apple hardware to its limits and is painfully missing from tvOS. 
    That’s like saying Sony should remove media streaming options altogether because it didn’t have them from the start like the Apple TV. Frankly it’s odd that that you’re trying so hard to force the Apple TV in to a gaming console category and then saying that if it’s only one feature that it should be removed altogether. Would you say that about the iPhone 8/X? how many iOS games already support the new resolution natively with HDR? It seems like HDR is a complex rewrite so I’m going to guess none of them.

    Also, again, how many games for the PS4 Pro and Xbox One S supported 4K+HDR upon their launches? I couldn’t find any, but I’m not a gamer so I may not have been looking in the right places or using the best search terms. If it wasn’t well over 20, like in your statement about the Nintendo Wii, shouldn’t there be a huge public outcry from gamers that I should be able to find about all the games not being pre-rewritten for 4K+HDR a year ago?
    edited October 2017
  • Reply 27 of 43
    Cali said:

    It’s just sad that the best visual game according to owners and this article is a game from 2013.

    Thing is, the article is about the best FREE games, not the best games overall. I've found that the FREE games area at least one, sometimes two generations behind. I would suspect any games upgraded to 4K will not be FREE, thus a new list will have to be created.

    "Of course more games are coming but Imagine if PS4 launched and a month later all you could play were ps3 games? Sony would have been charred by flaming fans."

    Which is why Apple doesn't advertise the ATV4 as a gaming console, rather, as a video streaming device that can also play (limited) games.
  • Reply 28 of 43
    "Write once run everywhere" is not valid in mobile era. There is no such thing as "cross-platform", that is an urban legend of the 20th century. Even if there is, Apple's production and sales scale justifies the creation of a brand new code base specific to Apple platforms. The truth is, the gaming industry is years behind Apple and the paradigm change towards mobile Apple leads. Sticking with obsolete beliefs will not help.
    I wasn't talking about cross-platform. I'm talking about developers scaling effects/graphics across iOS devices because of the wide variety of capabilities, and the fact that tvOS is very closely connected to iOS. ATV and iOS device gaming is a closer parallel to the PC gaming model than consoles.
  • Reply 29 of 43

    cali said:
    Games don’t auto upgrade(at least not yet). Asphalt from 2013 isn’t gonna recode itself for A10x, it’s gonna cap out at whatever technology was available at the time (iPhone 5/A6).
    Not sure what exactly you're talking about here. Developers can update the graphics of previously released games at any time. For example, the ATV version of Real Racing 3 probably was capped for the A8, but now can be updated to the A10X. This type of thing happens all the time. 
  • Reply 30 of 43
    nhtnht Posts: 4,522member
    cali said:
    Soli said:
    cali said:
    Like an earlier poster said, what’s the point in the horsepower if it won’t be used?
    1) 4K+HDR is already being used on the Apple TV 4K right now.

    2) Specifically regarding gaming, it sounds like you and this "earlier poster" are conflating "won't be used," a contraction of will not with not being used right now, less than a month after launch. This 5th Apple TV is going to be around for a long time and if all you care about is gaming then stick with the 4th gen or go with a console designed around gaming.

    Personally, I love how much better everything looks on my Apple TV 4K over my 4th gen Apple TV.
    I edited out a bit that I should have left in.
    Originally I said why buy all this horse power when a crap $99 Amazon box can do 4k and HDR?

    why so many excuses for Apple?
    Of course more games are coming but Imagine if PS4 launched and a month later all you could play were ps3 games? Sony would have been charred by flaming fans. 

    Wii U got roasted to hell for offering around 20 games during launch month. Apple TV 4k will get one current gen game in 2017; Sky. ONE GAME. 
    a) It's not a game console.
    b) the important game related hardware hasn't been released yet or even announced despite API support in the latest tvOS.
    c) It's not a game console.
    Solifahlman
  • Reply 31 of 43
    Casual gaming on steroids.  More powerful than the consoles of yesteryear.  All in a tiny box.

    A stealth attack on gaming.

    Great selection of games.  Just not the mono-culture of 1 man and his first person view style stuff that dominates PC games.  And it doesn't have to be.  IT has a broader mandate.

    A10X.  Never expected something this powerful to be in the little ATV black box.  Very powerful.  4k streaming as well??

    Some great games coming up when devs start using that power.  Equivalent to a PS3-ish?  (Which is still a fab console.  If it has that power and above that's just fine for the casual game and on market.)

    Broadest possible market.  Apple will hoover up casual gamers with this in synchronicity with the iPhone/iPad it's a trinity strategy.  Got the 'steel' controller to wicket keeper the siri remote.

    Er.  They could be more active in their gaming strategy?  Sponsor the 'kool' gaming companies or buy their own studio eg. Bungie?  But why bother wasting the money?  The force of gravity from the iOS black hole ecosystem and the force multiplier of iPhone/iPad will bring games to the platform one way or another.

    There's lots of great, innovate gems of games out there.  Not conventional big budget 'Doom' style shooters but that's not what Apple's after.  But lots of inventor games with a different take to the usual...  The casual market is huger than 'Doom' and his copycats.

    Atv 4k has a bright future ahead of it.  A price cut to put the boot in would be good.  But it's cheaper than a PS 4 or Pro or a Switch?  With a far more formidable ecosystem behind it.

    The one good idea above by someone said it would be a great retro gamers device.  Apple would have to hoover up all the rights to do that though?

    Be great to play all the old C64 games on it!  (Never thought graphics would be this good on a home system back then...)

    Lemon Bon Bon.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 32 of 43
    It doesn't have the pressure to have a launch day with 20 titles or something.  It's not a 'console.'  

    It has a broader mandate than that.  Which makes it a great trojan horse for gaming.

    Primarily a streaming tv box with great gaming capabilities and ecosystem behind it.

    When Apple has an Apple TV 4k below £100 I'll think about it.

    When developers start pushing an A10x at 4k we'll see some great little games on this.  I'd settle for an emulated Boulderdash C64 version though...

    Lemon Bon Bon.
  • Reply 33 of 43
    Not sure why so much focus on graphics. Only issue is lack of good games. They don’t need to be current gen AAA titles either. iPad & iPhone game library is full of great games. Where is ATV version of TellTale Batman or Wolf Amung Us? Where’s GTA? Where’s all those classic SquareEnix, Konami & Capcom games? Where are the Lego games? Retro game scene is huge right now. ATV can handle plenty of amazing games. They just need to convince developers its worth porting their games to ATV. 4K or not, A10X or not, the ATV is capable of handing enough to make it a great place to play games.
    watto_cobra
  • Reply 34 of 43
    smaffeismaffei Posts: 237member
    Wow! This game list is almost bad as the Pippin supported game list.
    libertyforall
  • Reply 35 of 43
    supadav03 said:
    Where’s GTA? Where’s all those classic SquareEnix, Konami & Capcom games? Where are the Lego games? Retro game scene is huge right now. ATV can handle plenty of amazing games. They just need to convince developers its worth porting their games to ATV. 4K or not, A10X or not, the ATV is capable of handing enough to make it a great place to play games.
    You have to figure that big console developers like Rockstar, Nintendo, EA, 2K, Capcom etc. would prefer that people who want to play their games on TV are directed towards the consoles and are buying more expensive recent releases. That's why Apple's approach of paying for an indie game timed exclusive like Sky makes sense. Those are the types of developers that have more interest in providing both an ATV and iOS version of the same games. 
  • Reply 36 of 43
    boltsfan17boltsfan17 Posts: 2,273member
    Soli said:
    cali said:
    %100 of those games were available last gen for the A8 professor. Nothing new.
    This means %0 of games are gonna show [off] the power of this new device.
    One things I see gamers obsessive over are frame rates which is why they want better HW for their current games so they can increase it. Does having a better processing not help with increasing that aspect of the game or are those people lying?
    Having better processing helps but not as much as having a good GPU. It also depends on the game and how well its optimized. I would love to have better games on the ATV 4K, but asking for 4K HDR games is a bit much. The Apple TV isn't that powerful. 
  • Reply 37 of 43
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,030member
    Soli said:
    cali said:
    %100 of those games were available last gen for the A8 professor. Nothing new.
    This means %0 of games are gonna show [off] the power of this new device.
    One things I see gamers obsessive over are frame rates which is why they want better HW for their current games so they can increase it. Does having a better processing not help with increasing that aspect of the game or are those people lying?
    Having better processing helps but not as much as having a good GPU. It also depends on the game and how well its optimized. I would love to have better games on the ATV 4K, but asking for 4K HDR games is a bit much. The Apple TV isn't that powerful. 
    Can be certain that 4K+HDR games aren’t possible on the Apple TV 4K when its volume is considerably larger than that of an iPhone and yet it has a fan (a first for an A-series chip Andrew iOS-based device?) much larger than than the A10X chip that it’s cooling? Can we rule out that they’ve adjusted the clock rates for that chip in the Apple TV over the iPad Pro?
  • Reply 38 of 43
    Soli said:
    Can be certain that 4K+HDR games aren’t possible on the Apple TV 4K when its volume is considerably larger than that of an iPhone and yet it has a fan (a first for an A-series chip Andrew iOS-based device?) much larger than than the A10X chip that it’s cooling? Can we rule out that they’ve adjusted the clock rates for that chip in the Apple TV over the iPad Pro?
    2D games in 4K HDR might be possible, or maybe even some types of 3D games in 1080p HDR (since the standard versions of the PS4/XB1 can do that).
  • Reply 39 of 43
    tipootipoo Posts: 1,116member
    That sure is a lot of power with an actively cooled A10x, easily well above the Switch on the majority of fronts. 

    Now, the Switch in turn can run a modern AAA game like Doom, albeit at much reduced resolution and 30fps, but still. The A10X has at least twice the CPU performance, so it could maybe coax something like that back to 60. 

    That's all just hardware potential right now though. I think Apple should court some game  developers and fund some ATV exclusive games, then the extra 100 dollars over a 'pure' 4K HDR streamer would be better worth it. 
  • Reply 40 of 43
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 14,538moderator
    tipoo said:
    That sure is a lot of power with an actively cooled A10x, easily well above the Switch on the majority of fronts. 

    Now, the Switch in turn can run a modern AAA game like Doom, albeit at much reduced resolution and 30fps, but still. The A10X has at least twice the CPU performance, so it could maybe coax something like that back to 60. 

    That's all just hardware potential right now though. I think Apple should court some game developers and fund some ATV exclusive games, then the extra 100 dollars over a 'pure' 4K HDR streamer would be better worth it. 
    It's not the money that's the issue with developing games but time. Games just take a long time to make, around a minimum of 2 years for a decent quality game. It's even worse for high quality Indie games because the studios are smaller - Limbo devs have about 25 people and have made 2 games in 10 years:

    https://medium.com/the-last-night-devblog/why-do-independent-game-developers-take-so-long-to-make-games-661f98433411



    Console manufacturers usually put out prerelease developer kits a year before launch. Even then, most of the launch titles are old game ports and multi-platform titles. The PS4 and XBox exclusives were the following:

    http://www.sidequesting.com/2013/10/charticle-who-has-the-most-exclusives-playstation-4-and-xbox-one-launch-lineups-compared/

    These are the games

    Big AAA studios can turnaround games in under 3 years but they have hundreds-thousands of people working on them ($50m+ budget) and they can schedule yearly releases by offsetting multiple teams on different titles.

    If games developers started targeting the Apple TV at launch, you wouldn't see high quality original titles until at least 2 years later. Another reason for this is the install base, which doesn't become millions overnight. It will take a year or two to be large enough to have a suitably sized audience to buy the games.

    Where money comes into play is the payoff for the developer. Free-to-play dominates on Apple's platforms and this is a very hit and miss revenue stream. The Candy Crush developers have about 180 games but 95% of their revenue comes from 3 of them.

    iOS games also tend to be buy-once, play everywhere so porting from iPhone/iPad to Apple TV doesn't make the developer any more money from the people who already pay for the games and the unit volume is low so the numbers don't work out for free-to-play titles.

    What could work out here would be game ports like what the Switch is getting e.g Resident Evil Revelations. These don't take nearly as long as new titles (<12 months) and are much lower cost. I doubt it would cost over $5m to port a game over, there's some marketing costs too. If they priced these at $5 each, they only need 1-2m units to start making a profit and porting old games to iOS allows developers to target the whole mobile platform, not just Apple TV.

    Having a lower price point on iOS isn't good for developers' console partners though because they'll wonder why the console versions are $20-40 and iOS version is just $5. Developers would have to charge close to the same on each platform.

    The upfront price, even at $5, is still a problem when the audience isn't used to paying but something Apple can do here is tie it in with a TV subscription. If they had a premium service with monthly credits, the credits could be spent on both renting premium movies and access to games. It wouldn't be ownership of games, you just use the credits to play them for a week or month.

    Apple would definitely need to help fund ports because there's very little incentive here for developers to do it spontaneously. If Apple did this then titles would start to show up in 6-12 months but as I say, they can't be priced too low and they might not be able to recoup the investment. If good games are coming to Apple TV, expect them later on (1 year+ from now) and don't expect them to be cheap.
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